User talk:RobinHood70/Archive2012

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Immortal in DRAGON language[edit]

I just have one question as you can see from the HEADLINE I want to ask how you say IMMORTAL in dragon languange because I cant find it anywhere. Nephele recon you so I guess you are the MAN.

I already responded on Nephele's talk page. Robin Hoodtalk 22:56, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Help :D[edit]

Since you seem knowledgeable, and since I have a quick question/problem, I would like to ask about monobook.js. Alfwyn recently pointed out to me this list and it appears my monobook.js is causing a few unneeded unwanted templates to show. I can't quite figure out why, but, as you can see from my scripts page - it could be hidden anywhere --kiz talkemail 19:39, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Wow...that is quite the monobook.js you have! LOL. The problem is that the wiki tries to parse code, even on .js pages. To avoid that, you need to have either or both (I forget) of <pre></pre> and <nowiki></nowiki> surrounding it. If you search through your page, you'll see you have several such tags. Reduce this to just opening ones at the beginning, and closing ones at the end, and you should be good to go, though it may take a couple of minutes for the Wanted Templates list to refresh. Have a look at mine, and you'll see...I've just edited it to add the nowiki tags where needed, cuz I seem to remember it can make a difference in some cases. It doesn't matter whether they're commented out with // or /* ... */, just as long as they're commented out somehow. Robin Hoodtalk 19:49, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! I'm still no further, i've reduced the list somewhat by importing a script instead of copy/pasting, but, the list is still a bit longer than it should be. I still can't figure it out - User:Kiz/monobook.js and User:Kiz/wikied.js as were all the code is at now. I'm fairly sure the pre and nowiki tags are right though. --kiz talkemail 20:16, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Search for "<pre>...</pre>" and take it out of wikEd, and I think that should do it.
A trick for this sort of thing is to copy and paste the javascript into a regular sandbox. Then you can see visually if your Pre tags are being closed prematurely, and while it's a bit harder to track, you can figure out if the nowiki tags are being affected at all because if there are templates listed after you click on "Show preview", then your nowiki tags have been messed with in some way. Robin Hoodtalk 21:35, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It has - Thanks! I spotted the nowiki ones there, but failed to see the pre tags immediately below. I'm semi-tempted to just make the TES5MOD template request on that page as well, but theres no TES5Mod:Modding page to link it too like the others, it'll have to wait I s'pose anyway, im rambling now - thanks for the help :) --kiz talkemail 21:39, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Tes5Mod:Main_Page, maybe? Robin Hoodtalk 21:41, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't have an image either :/ I'm thinking of just using the Oblivion one for now - since it will show up on a total of one page from the word go. Thoughts? --kiz talkemail 21:46, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Might as well, yeah. That's what we're doing all over Skyrim space at the moment. We can change them later once we have a better icon and page to link to. Robin Hoodtalk 21:47, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
And, done. Now, all I need is something to occupy me for a bit. --kiz talkemail 21:51, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

() <emulating Tom Sawyer> Patrolling is always fun! Robin Hoodtalk 21:54, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Edited your Character page[edit]

Hi, I just thought I should mention that I changed a typo on your Characters page. I don't normally edit other people's user pages (besides their User talk page) but I'm pretty sure you meant to display High Elf instead of High Elf|.

Also, I saw that you took the UESPholic Test (nice score!). I created a userbox to display your score just for the heck of it. If you want to use it, it's right here. • JATalk 00:13, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the fix! Nice little userbox template, but no thanks for me—I'm trying to keep my number of UBs fairly small. Robin Hoodtalk 00:16, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Help me![edit]

Template:WordWall is screwed up! Look at Skyrim:Whirlwind Sprint for an example. For some reason, all of the text is there to display it as a table, but it's not doing so. I had to use the special characters &_#123; and &_#125; (without underscores) for the curly braces, which may have screwed it up. I have an idea, but if it doesn't work, then I humbly request your assistance. • JATalk 03:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the changes you actually made, but just looking at the above page, it seems okay on the surface. Have you fixed the problem? I'll be going for dinner in a minute, so if you can't fix it before I leave (or I can't fix it quickly), just revert your changes back to an earlier version and I'll take a look at it later. Robin Hoodtalk 03:34, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
I managed to fix it. elliot (talk) 03:35, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Okay, perfect, I'm off to eat then. :) Robin Hoodtalk 03:37, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

warning/block?[edit]

I just reverted some vandalism by an IP user, looked at their past contributions and noticed they'd done a few similar things before. I know you just told me how to post messages on talk pages for things like this, but I don't know enough details about the policy and consequences on vandalism to do feel comfortable posting anything about it myself, so I figured I'd leave this one to someone else... So I'm here, just pointing it out: (anon user) Do with this info what you wish. Alphabetface 06:14, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification. We're a little more trigger-happy than somewhere like Wikipedia since we have a smaller user base. So typically, the first response to overt vandalism like that is to issue a warning on the user's talk page (as I just did). If they do more than one edit after that warning, someone should block them (normally an Admin or a few other users who have blocking privileges). If nobody seems to be blocking them, especially if they keep going for a while, it's often a good idea to post on the Administrator Noticeboard to attract attention. In a case like this where there's a prior history but they haven't been warned, we usually err on the side of caution and just issue a warning unless the vandalism is rampant. Robin Hoodtalk 06:31, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Anti-spam bot[edit]

I came up with this idea in the IRC, after I was talking with Krusty about the recent spam wave, and he suggested I direct this question to you. I was thinking that a bot to prevent spam/vandalism could be employed on the site, since there are a lot of editors and anons on the site now. Here is what I was thinking for a bot:

  1. The bot will be able to identify common words, such as "penis", "vagina", "fuck", and other common words that are inserted into pages, then revert them.(Edit: And be able to revert edits where nonsense characters that don't make words are added i.e. hfdjkslfhs or similar, Excluding the in-game language pages, and the pages on Morrowind, for example, where there are pages written with ciphers in game, therefore not making real words) There are a couple of pages (Lore:The Real Barenziah, Part IV) that have a legitimate use of those common words (Penis, in this instance) and those legit pages will be white-listed so that the bot can pass over them.
  2. The bot will be given a list of sites frequently used as spam, (the Coach site, for example from the recent spam wave), and will create a black list. Any of those links that are added by a user that is not Patroller or higher(Trustworthy positions, since you have to be helpful to the wiki to want them anyways), will be automatically blocked by the bot, with a block notice for spam posted to the page.
  3. And, the bot will be able to revert revisions of a page where a large section of text is removed, with an appropriate warning issued to the offender. (Again excluding Patrollers, Admins, and other trustworthy positions, in case it was blanked for a redirect). Userspace pages are frequently blanked legitimately, so I can't see the bot functioning properly in the userspace, so it should be excluded from there.

There is are bots that preform similar functions on Wikipedia, which is where I got the idea from.

What do you think of my proposal? Krusty suggested that you would be able to accomplish the project, or with the permission of a few admins, I can begin coding the bot myself over the next few weeks. ESQuestion?EmailContribs 00:46, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, my bot coding skills are the least developed of the three of us on the site who have bots. I suspect Nephele would be the one to talk to since she's done a lot more work on server-side utilities than either rpeh or I have; Daveh might also be able to comment, but I wouldn't start there. The biggest issue I see with the above is that to be of the most use, a bot like you're talking about would have to run on the server - right now, all three bots on the site are being run from our own machines, not from the server. I'm not sure if we can run a server-side bot in our current setup or not, though I know there was some discussion a while back of setting up a bot server for UESP.
Some of what you're suggesting can actually be set up without a bot, though. For example, we have a Spam Blacklist page that prevents unauthorized users (maybe all users...not sure) from posting links to certain sites.
A third possibility might be to set something up similar to HotCat, where it's a user-assisted bot that simply reverts and issues warnings. I remember a similar discussion coming up a while ago, though, regarding the use of the rollback feature, and the decision at the time was not to allow any but Admins to use it because it would make it too easy to edit war.
So in the end, my recommendation would be to bring this to the Administrators Noticeboard and see what feedback you get. I suspect rpeh and Nephele probably both have a better feel for the feasability of this than I do. Robin Hoodtalk 02:01, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Alright, I will copy this to the AN here in the next few minutes. ESQuestion?EmailContribs 02:11, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Hovertext quirk[edit]

For some reason, on an image if you specify the link and the hovertext, the link overrides the hovertext. Is there a workaround to this?

Ex: [[Image:SR-icon-Basic Trainer.png|link=Skyrim:Block|Block (Common)]]Block (Common)

• JATalk 23:49, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

It's a MediaWiki bug. The workaround is {{Navimg}}, which talks about it a bit. Robin Hoodtalk 02:30, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Crud. The problem is that it creates a very obvious underline if you mouse over the bottom corner. Example: {{Navimg|image=SR-icon-Basic Trainer.png|title=Block (Common)|link=Skyrim:Block}} • JATalk 04:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
There's a replacement version that's been sitting in one of my sandboxes for forever and a day, but I remember there were a couple of issues with using it. I think those are solved with the current version, but I'm gonna do a bunch of checking before I put it in place. Example: {{User:RobinHood70/Het|image=SR-icon-Basic Trainer.png|title=Block (Common)|link=Skyrim:Block}} Robin Hoodtalk 05:00, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Oh yeah, you can also use the {{#icon}} function on its own and bypass Navimg altogether in most cases. It has a couple of small limitations over the traditional image command, but I don't think it's anything that'll affect you. You can find documentation for it here. Robin Hoodtalk 05:04, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! #icon was just what I needed. Updating {{TrainerIcon}} right... now • JATalk 05:28, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

IRC[edit]

For some reason, I cannot connect to irc.chatspike.net. I have used different clients and I can't get connected anywhere. I was just wanting you to know if people can get in there, which it would be a problem with my computer. Thanks. elliot (talk) 23:43, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Neither can I. Their website isn't accessible either. While we're talking about issues, though, can you go check out my post an AN and tell me if you're getting the same behaviour? Thanks! Robin Hoodtalk 23:44, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
The IRC server itself seems to be offline, I've emailed Krusty and neither he, kitkat, kiz, or myself can connect either. Thuraya Salaris 23:50, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) While we are discussing the IRC channel, I may as well throw in that I haven't been able to get on since about 2 days ago. I originally thought I was just lagging out, but since others seem to have this issue, I just wanted to add the possibility that it could have been going on for longer. ESQuestion?EmailContribs 23:52, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Yep it's been the same for me. Thuraya Salaris 23:59, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
A few tiny updates are available on Chatspike's Facebook page - not the most informative, but it's the only info I've been able to find. --Krusty 00:15, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Since it looks like it had to be pulled and that the users dropped to zero, I went ahead and made a new irc channel (either permanently or until chatspike is back up). The server is irc.xertion.org and the port is 6667. You can either join with an IRC client or use their own client. I'll get everything aligned in terms of access levels as people join, and I will transfer over ownership to Krusty whenever he gets in there. Remember that you'll have to register and identify yourself to the server. elliot (talk) 00:36, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
Good idea. You should probably add a notice to our IRC page for now? I'll try and pop in tomorrow. --Krusty 00:40, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
And I forgot to mention, the room is #uesp. elliot (talk) 01:32, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

UESP not updating[edit]

Sorry if you're not the right one to ask, but maybe you can redirect me if that's the case. I've noticed in the last hour that none of the pages I've viewed in the last hour (and I've been on the site for the last hour straight) are updating at all. I've been looking at the 'edit history' of various pages, and the edits I've made since then are not appearing (and I may have made some mistaken/bad edits because of it), nor are any other user edits. I've tried logging out, clearing all history on my browser, closing my browser completely, and I still cannot see anything that has been newly changed on the UESP site in the last hour. Any ideas on what might be going on? Alphabetface 05:36, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

It's not you, it's everyone. You can see content when you edit, but not when you read. I'd advise not making any important changes, as there's the possibility that we'll lose all our recent edits if there's really bad data corruption or something. Robin Hoodtalk 08:04, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. I thought I was losing my mind for a while there. It seems to be resolved now, or at least there's updates since last night (like I can actually read that I posted something here, and the response!). :) Back to my new addiction of wasting all my time watching the recent pages... Alphabetface 13:55, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Patrolling[edit]

Hi RobinHood, I still owe you an answer on your proposal to become a patroller. As you may have guessed from the lack of said answer, I decided against getting involved formally. I've started to read the recent changes a few times a day though and will do a revert or two whenever I feel the need is there. I think I owe that somewhat to this wiki, since it already helped me past a few obstacles in Oblivion - but at the same time, as I said, there is job and private life plus me being a moderator on a quite large forum, so I think I'm into enough committed commitments for now, so this can only be an uncommited commitment. Thanks again though and good luck. (Btw, the scuffle about this wiki, another wiki and stuff is not really an advertisement for getting involved, but had nothing to do with my decision. And no, I do not know who is in the right and neither do I want to know ;) ). Read you later, Ulkomaalainen 21:42, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I certainly don't want to push you into anything you don't have time for — I'm just on a bit of a recruiting drive because I know first-hand how many edits remain unpatrolled even almost a month after they've been made. On the other hand, the overall number of edits is slowly decreasing, so I think the worst is now over. A few more patrollers wouldn't hurt, though, so don't hesitate to either change your mind, or encourage other high-quality editors to become patrollers if you notice them. You don't have to be a patroller to encourage someone else to become one. As for the scuffle, I agree, that sort of thing is never good advertising, but as you probably know, they're a fact of life in any large forum or wiki from time to time. That's about as much as I'll say about it, especially given that Dave has indicated he intends to comment further himself later on. Robin Hoodtalk 22:16, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the Heads Up[edit]

I wasn't aware that just correcting caps was a problem - but, it was a talk-page and in hindsight I understand why. I'll be more careful in the future. Thanks!!! Philbert 03:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Account Name; Your Thoughts on Quest Walkthrough Ideas[edit]

I noticed that your "signature name" appears (slightly) different from your actual username. I originally chose one of my standard usernames when I started my account because I had no idea that I'd be contributing (or at least trying to) like I have been, nor starting to feel like a part of the community here. Now, I wish I had chosen one that let people address me by name more conveniently. Can you offer any advice on this? 1) Is there any way to have my username simply changed? 2) Anything negative about just starting a new account and using that from now on? I don't think I have any motivation to keep "credits" for number of edits or anything like that, but I can see how it might be good for me to be available for anyone who wants to communicate with me about anything I've done to date. 3) Anything wrong with or negative about using a nickname in my signature that is more radically different from my username? (Like simply "Jim".)

I am experimenting with revising a quest page in a way that is quite different from anything I've seen. Would you mind taking a look at it and commenting with whatever comes to your mind? Maybe the comment would be most useful if placed on the discussion page of the sandbox here. You will immediately notice two major things that are radically different from what I recognize as standard: 1) Degree of detail; 2) Use of show/hide. I am enjoying playing with the page and really have no idea if anything like it would be generally seen as good/appropriate/acceptable for publishing. As I note on the page, I am more interested in getting feedback on the concept than on the content details, as I have so far not critically examined that nor reached a stage of revising. I have also not worried about page layout issues so far. (So, for all I know, using the show/hide tool on the page might warrant or deserve feedback, but would be much better done if tables were used, different kinds of labels, etc.) If you are in a position to let me know "objectively" that the entire direction will be generally seen as not good or not appropriate, that is enough for me (e.g., the idea has been discussed and rejected before, etc.). On the other hand, whether you love it or hate it, if you think it might be beneficial to get others' feedback, do you have any guidance on how/where I can most effectively solicit it? Thanks. --Jreynolds2Talk E-mail 03:43, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I have no advice on the name question, but adding the {{peer review}} tag will get people to look at the sandbox. You may also want to post a link to it on the Community Portal. —SkoomaManiac 03:53, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Do you want to just change your signature or your whole name? You can change your signature in your preferences window, but to change your username entirely you have to ask an administrator to do it. Robin can't do that, but you could ask Nephele, Krusty, or one of the other many administrators, whose names I can't all remember. ESQuestion?EmailContribs 04:09, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) (ES explains this a bit better above...read his reply.) For your name, the Administrators have the ability to change it, so just post to the Admin Noticeboard and someone will help. As a rule, signatures should in some way resemble the user name. I don't think it's too big a stretch to sign Jim if you keep the name Jreynolds2, especially since it says right on your page that your name is Jim Reynolds. If you opt to go for Smurfette as your user name but want to sign as Jim, I can pretty much guarantee that's gonna be a problem. ;)
I'm generally big on detail, but I have a generally horrendous sense of what's aesthetically pleasing or what makes good vs. bad content, so I'd go with SkoomaManiac's advice on this one and slap a peer review tag on it. Off the top of my head, I don't see anything that strikes me as inappropriate or discussed and rejected, though. Robin Hoodtalk 04:10, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, thanks, and thanks. (Not necessarily in that order.) --Jreynolds2Talk E-mail 09:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Items Not Listed Anywhere[edit]

Hey! Since you're awake and on the site... Wanna check out this issue I'm trying to get resolved? Thanks! :) Alphabetface 06:29, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I've got a bunch of patrolling to catch up on, so I won't be able to look at this in depth till later tonight or maybe tomorrow. Most of the information can be found in the CSList, if you wanna give that a shot. Robin Hoodtalk 06:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
*But* Also, we need the weight & value, so you could get Skyrim up and running, do the ID search, add it to inventory, and then we have all the data! If you're willing to do that, then could you please add Harrald's Steel Sword to your list? Thanks! • JATalk 07:19, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

You wanna take a look at this?[edit]

Frankly, I'm not sure what this is; I've seen one or two entries (this one for sure) linking to some off-site download. I don't know if this is some kind of virus/spyware, and frankly, I'm not finding out through experimentation. I don't know if you know anything about this sort of thing, but since I marked it patrolled without thinking, I should mention it to somebody, and you're active, here I am. Minor Edits 06:51, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll have a look at it. We generally encourage people to use TESNexus or a similar site for things like this, since we know they're generally reliable, but communicating with an IP address can be challenging. I'll post back once I've looked at the files. Robin Hoodtalk 06:55, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Looks legit. There are no executables or anything like that, just sound files. The link about that one is dead, though. Robin Hoodtalk 06:57, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Userpage[edit]

Hi there! Just a random question which holds no immediate issue, I was wondering how you managed to create what seems to be 'smaller' sections using the '==' feature? I've looked everywhere on how to make them smaller and not take up the entire width of the page, but to my luck, I haven't been able to find out how to do this. Your help is greatly appreciated! Helenaannevalentine 05:43, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

They're inside a table, like this:

== Header 1 ==

== Header 2 ==

Let me know once you've read this, and I'll <nowiki> the actual headers so they're not cluttering anything up. I didn't want to put them in now and risk confusing the issue, cuz the formatting is a bit touchy when it comes to headers in tables. Robin Hoodtalk 05:53, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Cool, thank you very much! This helps me a lot with trying to manage around my userpage! Much appreciated! Helenaannevalentine 06:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Glad to be of help! Robin Hoodtalk 06:16, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Wretched Camp[edit]

Just a small question relating to the 'Campsites' section of the Shivering Isles Redesign Project even though it isn't exactly related to you, I just would like to know: When I was tidying up my walkthroughs to match the examples given by Legoless, I came across the Wretched Camp page and I just so happened to notice that the Console Location Code is called SERunoffCamp01 which is clearly incorrect because it's not the correct code for the specified camp, unlike where it is correctly placed here. I was just wondering whether someone happened to make a mistake when typing in the code or is it actually written in the CS? And if so, why hasn't the person who written it there in the first placed put a note saying that the error was in the CS?

Sorry to be a bother, it's just quite odd how if it was correct, that no-one specified that in the notes. If it is somehow correctly written as it is in the CS, then I'll add a note to the page specifying that reason, it's just that I don't exactly have the CS to check these kinds of things Thanks! Helenaannevalentine 05:09, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, it can't be a duplicate in the CS, or the game would get horrendously lost and confused, so I'll assume it's a cut & paste error. It should be SEWretchedCamp. Robin Hoodtalk 05:15, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
True, that makes more sense, if there was the same code for two places, the game couldn't tell which was which. Thanks! I'll get onto changing it right away Helenaannevalentine 05:26, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Quick question[edit]

Hey, I'm cleaning up a mess of a talk page, and I'm running into this fairly often. People will sign their posts with something like "... help me! - Bob" rather than the standard ~~~~. Should I label these posts with a standard {{unsigned}}? • JATalk 19:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

That's what I normally do, yeah. I just put it after the "Bob". Another situation you might encounter is when a user accidentally signs with their user name only, or even just types their user name. In those cases, I usually fix it to look like a default user signature, but I've seen others either erase the name in favour of an unsigned template, or just add an unsigned to the end. At the end of the day, the point is that we know who's saying what, and preferably when they posted (at least the day), so as long as that's clear, it's not really a big deal what style you end up using. Robin Hoodtalk 19:46, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. • JATalk 21:57, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


Quest Header[edit]

So I think I managed to get a namespace-dependent version of {{Quest Header}} found here. It relies heavily on locals and defines, but it was the best way I could make it work. I tested it in multiple namespaces, but I was wanting to know if anything troublesome shows up to you. I have been staring at it for awhile now, so it would be good to have different eyes looking at it before I take it live. Thanks! elliot (talk) 07:32, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Re:[edit]

Yeah, alright. ThuumofReason 16:16, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Warning, page too long, etc., etc.[edit]

WARNING: This page is 30 kilobytes long; some browsers may have problems editing pages approaching or longer than 32kb. Please consider breaking the page into smaller sections.

I have this while editing a sandbox. All the text appears in the editing window, but on preview, only part of it will display. It seems to me that it's already in sections. Help! --JRTalk E-mail 22:56, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. Lots of pages get that warning, but I've yet to hear of anybody ever having issues. I'm surprised MediaWiki still has that in there, actually. In your case, as you've probably just noticed, the only problem was an HTML comment that wasn't properly closed. Robin Hoodtalk 23:04, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Errr, Yes. You are correct and you have passed the test. --JRTalk E-mail 23:21, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Uns2?[edit]

So I just noticed a recent edit by you on a talk page in which you added the information for an unsigned post. I've been using either {{unsigned|blah|blah}} or {{uns|blah|blah}}, and I noticed you used {{uns2|blah|blah}}. I figured the 'uns' was short for 'unsigned' (genius, I know) and I was just wondering if there is an actual difference when you put in the 'uns2' (some minor difference in template or something?) or if it's the exact same thing? Alphabetface 19:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I may have figured it out... is the difference the order of the 'blah's? Is the date first on the 'uns2' one, rather than the user? Alphabetface 19:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
You did indeed figure it out. It's done that way for copying & pasting from the history or the dates at the top of a diff, which come date first, then user. Robin Hoodtalk 20:51, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
RH, ABFace (Queen of the Unsigned), and anyone else: What about using this more often? Do you think it would be worthwhile? If so, I can imagine that the text of the message can be made "stronger" (more concise), and perhaps more effectively at pointing out the advantage to users of signing. For one thing, adding the icon for the signature button and replacing the "four tildes" instruction with it, or at least recommending it as the most convenient method. But I'm not sure exactly what might be smart. And when might be good to use: When someone has not signed but has made at least __ edits? --JRTalk E-mail 01:52, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I think perhaps a notification–rather than a welcome message–would be more beneficial, since most people who continuously don't sign have been around for a little while. elliot (talk) 02:09, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Hmm, I didn't even realize there was a notification message for not signing talk pages... I think it might be a lot more useful to post that message for certain users than others, and now that I know it exists I may use it a little more. Thanks for pointing it out, JR. Alphabetface 02:50, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I tend to find that the message is more trouble than it's worth it it's only a couple of edits, but definitely if the person is posting regularly and frequently forgets to sign (or signs manually), then it's a good idea to post the message. Where one wants to draw the line of what's "a couple" vs. what's "regularly/frequently" is up to each person. :) Robin Hoodtalk 03:16, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
It would be easier if we could just get Sinebot... :) elliot (talk) 03:20, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

() Yes, yes it would...plus the bot server to run it on (probably not absolutely necessary, but I know next to nothing about setting up server-side bots). Robin Hoodtalk 03:24, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I was wondering if there was a bot or something that could be done systematically to reduce unsigned edits. Elliot: 1) What would need to be done by who to get the bot you are talking about? 2) I'm curious why you wrote "rather than welcome messages" above. Was it a reference to something you've noticed happening, or just comparing two messages that both include instructions/advice on signing messages? — Unsigned comment by JR (talkcontribs) on 3 March 2012
For #1: unfortunately, the code for SineBot isn't public, so we simply can't get it. For #2: I'm guessing that Elliot meant that suggesting people sign is embedded in a somewhat long Welcome message and that we should perhaps consider using notifications when people aren't signing (essentially what you were also suggesting). Robin Hoodtalk 03:28, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

User Page[edit]

My user page is absolutely disgusting. I'm really unsure about what to do about this, and since you're the template master, I was wondering if you'd be able to give me a few pointers? At your leisure, of course. It just makes me wince every time I see it. Thanks! —SkoomaManiac 03:17, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

SkoomaManiac if you want you can borrow my coding and just replace stuff. I borrowed mine from AlphabetFace as is. Lord EydvarTalk 03:21, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I may be a template master, but my layout skills suck! Given the content of your page now, about the only things I can suggest are getting rid of the period after {{User Oblivion}} and maybe putting the userboxes in a table, which you can then have floating left or right if you want. Something like...
{| style="float:right" cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0
|{{User UESPWikian|year=2009|month=12|day=11}} || {{User current age|day=17|month=7|year=1996}}
|-
|{{User Male}} || {{User Right Handed}}
|-
|{{User Oblivion}} || {{User ShiveringIsles}}
|-
|{{User KotN}} || {{User Skyrim}}
|-
|{{User AllAchievements}} || {{User Frostcrag}}
|-
|{{User XBox}} || {{UESPholic Test Results|score=3215}}
|-
|{{User American|yellow|red|black}} || {{User Userspace Patroller}}
|}
Just take the {{Pre}} and the <nowiki></nowiki> out of the above code to see what it looks like or copy to your own page. Robin Hoodtalk 03:26, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! It's a good start, at least. I might mess with background color and such at a later point. If only we could all have as cool a user page as rpeh's... On a (somewhat) related note, I'm thinking about making userboxes for the 16 MBTIs. It might be an interesting way to better get to know people. Any thoughts on this? —SkoomaManiac 03:35, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
You'd only really need one user box with a parameter for which MBTI to use, I think. Reactions to non-game/non-wiki user boxes have been mixed at times in the past, but I something like MBTI might give insight into what kinds of things to expect out of an editor, and if it's a single box, I don't think it's really all that big of a deal. It's certainly more useful than, say, {{PianoKeys}}. :Þ
Oh and you can have a layout as cool as rpeh's, you just have to copy his user page and make about a bazillion changes to it. :) I've never really liked the overly boxy style myself, but then again, I don't really like what I have currently, either. It's functional, though, which is about all I have time for at the moment. :-/ Robin Hoodtalk 03:54, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I was hoping to be able to get it to link to the online description (forget which website, but it's really good!) for whichever type indicator was chosen. Could I still accomplish this with one box?
Yeah, right. Maybe over the summer, after the musical, after track, after work, if my grades are decent.... You get the picture. On the other hand, red always has been my color... Hmm.....—SkoomaManiac 04:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

() Yeah, it's possible as long as the page names don't change for each person's results and are just generic descriptions of the type. Robin Hoodtalk 04:04, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I would totally be into an MBTI userbox, and I also think it's a lot more useful than many userboxes in use— piano keys was a good example, but honestly depending on the type of person you are, you might consider it more useful than the religion userboxes... but I'm rambling. My point is, I am all about [someone other than me] adding a Myers-Briggs userbox to the site, and I think others would be into it as well. :) Alphabetface 04:05, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't understand. It'd be possible only to link to one site, not an individual page for each type indicator?
It's good to see I have supporters, Alphabetface :). I'll set up a sandbox tomorrow. —SkoomaManiac 04:09, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia has a userbox for it. :) elliot (talk) 04:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Yaaaaay!!! This stuff isn't my forte, so it's nice to see I won't have to start from scratch. Thanks, Elliot!!! -SkoomaManiac 04:24, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
@Skooma: Never mind what I meant...in the end, it wouldn't have mattered anyway, I think. ;) Robin Hoodtalk 04:35, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I went ahead and made {{User MBTI}}. :) elliot (talk) 06:48, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Returning to the Site[edit]

I just got your email and wanted to respond more privately but could not find a way to do so. Anyhow, I'd love to return to contributing to the site. I unfortunately do not have my PC right now and haven't for a while. This, as well as a very busy schedule, will certainly delay my ability to return (and my lack of Skyrim) but hopefully I can be of use in the future. --Darkle ~ Talk 05:41, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the response! I'm puzzled you coudln't reply privately, though...did replying to the e-mail not work for some reason? Robin Hoodtalk 05:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
There did not seem to be an email attached to reply to though perhaps I just didn't look correctly. These darned iPhones and their sleek display choices. --Darkle ~ Talk 06:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
LOL! Well, I just heard back from Werdnanoslen, so I know it's working. :) If you want my e-mail address anyway, let me know and I can send you another message with the address in the body of the message, just to make sure you get it. Robin Hoodtalk 06:46, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Patrolling[edit]

Since I've nominated myself for the Patroller position, I've been noticing the same comments about how I've not really been 'patrolling' like what Userspace Patrollers normally do and such. I was wondering if you could explain the 'marking as patrolled' side of things, because with all my editing recently, it has seemed to dissapeared from my mind and I cannot remember the 'grasp' of it. I know it's a really weird thing to ask at this time, but I guess a start is needed somewhere :) Helenaannevalentine 05:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

A full description of patrolling can be found here. The gist of it is that you're "approving" the edit...or if there's something wrong with it, then it means that you have changed it or are about to change it. In userspace, that usually means you can just patrol anything at all, as long as it's not vandalism, spam, excessive swearing, or making false claims about their role on the wiki (like adding an Admin box without going through the voting procedure, for instance). And if it is one of those things, then you patrol it, revert it, and optionally warn the user. Some people take the approach of warning on the very first such edit, others wait to see if the behaviour is repeated. It's your choice, really—there's good reason for both approaches.
For gamespace articles, you have to take it a couple of steps further and make sure that the edit is correct in terms of style, content, spelling, and grammar. Gamespace talk pages are treated more like userspace, with the exception that if the editor is asking a question, wants confirmation of a bug, or in some other way needs a response to their post, you leave it unpatrolled unless you can respond to it yourself or someone else already has. Robin Hoodtalk 05:59, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Normally there's a button on the right-hand corner if I'm not mistaken, which says something to the effect of "Mark as patrolled". Well when I view the pages to patrol them, there's no such button for me - anywhere. Am I just blind? ahaha Helenaannevalentine 04:38, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Since you're a Userspace patroller, that should appear on User and User talk pages only, but not anywhere else. If it's already patrolled, the button won't appear at all. (You'll know whether it's patrolled or not by the fact that it has a ! in the Recent Changes list.) Finally, if it's a new page that's unpatrolled, the button moves down to the bottom-right of the page. Stupid system having the button move for new pages...I'm sure there was some really good reason for it, though. Anyway, if you've checked all that and still aren't getting a "mark as patrolled" button, since me the URL for the edit you were trying to patrol and I'll have a look. Robin Hoodtalk 06:13, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Well I think most of my user-space edits are patrolled automatically anyways, which kinda added to my confusion a little there. I was just wondering whether there was a mistake somewhere, because the patrolling aspect with the "Mark as patrolled" button never showed for me if I ever do recall anywhere. It's not a problem at all if my edits in the user-spaces continue to be automatically patrolled anyways. Thanks for clearing it up! Helenaannevalentine 06:29, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Patrolling New Pages?[edit]

Hey, I just had a quick question about patrolling the userspace. I've been using the 'diff' links to mark edits as patrolled, but I don't see any way of marking newly-created pages as patrolled. I've seen a couple situations of new pages (like when a user first creates their own userpage, or someone starts a user's talk page with a welcome message) which still have the red exclamation marks, is there a way for me to mark these as patrolled? Is there a better method for other edits than what I've been doing so far? Alphabetface 06:56, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Just click on the actual page link, and in the bottom right corner you should see an option "[mark as patrolled]". Select that, and the page gets marked as patrolled. That only works for new pages, though. Kitkat TalkContribE-mail 07:14, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
You know, I think about half the new Patrollers ask that question. I remember doing so myself way back when. MediaWiki really made that one unintuitive. Robin Hoodtalk 07:22, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Oh, I just noticed your second question about a better method. No, I think that's about it. Usually I just go to Recent Changes, click on "Hide patrolled edits" in the options box at the top, then ctrl-click on a bunch of diffs and go through them one-by-one. Sometimes you and another Patroller will overlap doing that, but that's fairly uncommon, and it doesn't bother anything when it does—whoever gets to it first will be the one who shows up in the patrol log. Robin Hoodtalk 07:35, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Thanks to both of ya. Kk, that's exactly what I wanted to know. RH, that's pretty much the way I've been doing it, though there's usually not much more than 3-4 unpatrolled edits in userspace when I check anyway. At least now I know what to do with those unpatrolled new pages. Thanks again. :) Alphabetface 12:46, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

MediaWiki 1.19[edit]

It's gonna be a great update, eh? :P –SkoomaManiac 12:14, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

EDIT: I thought this was funny at 7:00 in the morning with about five hours of sleep. It wasn't funny. —SkoomaManiac 13:39, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
It was cute. Your update is what makes it funny! :) Robin Hoodtalk 23:41, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Yuck. It's good to see someone appreciates my sleep-deprived humor... :)–SkoomaManiac 21:23, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Archiving[edit]

Okay, so I just archived the Skyrim talk:Followers page, I know it wasn't extraordinarily long, and I didn't archive quite as much as I would have liked to, but there's a reason for that. Two questions first. Could you check on what I did and make sure I didn't mess anything major up? Also, when archiving by month (as seems simplest, and also common across talk pages I've seen) is it necessary to go exactly by month dates? For instance, would it have been okay to put this section in the Archive 2 page I made, even though that Archive says December-January, and the latest addition to that topic was in February? I would have liked to have archived more sections, but didn't because of this detail. I'd just like to know for the future. Thanks. :) Alphabetface 06:38, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Looks perfect. You're right, going by month is simplest (if for no better reason than because you can just do a search on month name(s) to figure out what to include and exclude, and once a post starts with a date after what you're archiving to, you know you're done). Including things outside of the stated date range isn't the norm, but it's done sometimes if the new response(s) are trivial, like a "thanks" or a "me too" type of post that really doesn't add anything new to the section. In the specific section you mentioned, I'd consider that last one to be a "me too" and be eligible for archiving. At this point, I wouldn't worry about it, though...it'll go in the next round.
Another trick in these situations is to use a running archive, where basically you just keep adding to the archive every month until it seems like a reasonable size (though there have been debates before about what's considered "reasonable" for an archive). The problem with using a running archive is if someone besides you fails to understand it was meant to be a running archive and then you have an abnormally small archive sitting there, or you forget the part about "reasonable" and keep a "running" archive that's more of a snail's-pace archive because it's several hundred entries long. ;) Robin Hoodtalk 06:49, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I wasn't going to go back and change anything (unless it was completely reverted, then I would have retried with whatever your suggestions were), but I figured I would ask for future reference, since it was something I was unsure of. As for the 'running archive' thing, I've kinda been doing that on my own talk page, though I didn't know it had a name. I guess if I do decide to try that running archive bit in another namespace, I would put something in the edit summary noting that or something, to avoid the first issue, and just try to remember to avoid the second. I did this one mostly to get the experience, so thanks for the help and the feedback. And, BTW, sorry for adopting you as my mentor. I know you're not on the actual mentors page, but you seem to be online when I should be sleeping am too, and your advice and attitude are really great when I ask anything, anywhere. So thanks again. :) Alphabetface 07:00, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
The only reason I'm not on the mentors page is because I'm jaded...or something...not quite sure what to call it. Basically, I found that when I advertised to be a mentor, I got people showing up on my talk page saying "Mentor me!" My response, of course, was "Ummm...okay...what did you want to know, exactly?" to which the inevitable reply was something along the lines of either "Everything!" or "Stuff!" Gah! I have absolutely no objections at all to answering specific, intelligent questions, which is what I seem to attract by not advertising myself as a mentor. :) Robin Hoodtalk 07:04, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Childs Pockets![edit]

Hey Hood! Nice to be able to link to the leveled list for the pocket contents. One thing is missing, however - to make the NPC pages consistent, we need to have the fourth entry, namely the content of the children's pockets. I know, they can't be pickpocketed or killed (even though we all knew that the charming modding community made them killable right away), but for consistency and overall information, I'd be really happy if you could do that fourth table. Hope you have the time - and thanks in advance! :) --Krusty 00:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm just off for dinner right now, but I'll get on that later tonight. Robin Hoodtalk 00:14, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Skills[edit]

I noticed your edit on the speech page. I think its time to start a Skyrim section of Increasing Skills but I don't have a clue where to start. If you could point me in the right direction, I can fill it with tips from the individual pages. The Silencer 07:51, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

I would actually suggest bringing this to the Community Portal. I know there's been some discussion of what should be included in terms of increasing skills, and whether we want it on individual pages or all together on one, but so far as I know, there was no firm consensus. I removed some of what was on the Speech page only because they were all exploits...but there again, something like that might be deemed appropriate for an "Increasing Skills" page (perhaps in a section of its own), where I tend to think it's not on individual pages. Robin Hoodtalk 07:59, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Legate Rikke question(s)[edit]

Hey RH! This is a quick, but not exactly simple question. I’ve been doing an awful lot of work on Legate Rikke, but I have a few problems, due to the different versions of her. We have a version coded 0x000132a1 and another version coded 0x000d0573. I’d like your help to determine WHEN the versions exist in the game, when it changes back and forth – or whatever it is that happens. Also, looking at her Deafult Outfit, it is always the ArmorImperialHeavyOutfitNoHelmet . Looking in-game, however, reveals that she gets a helmet at some point – is that something you can figure out too? Thanks in advance! --Krusty 01:10, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Just for fun, let's throw in a third Legate Rikke, with ID 0x000EA583! :) Now, just looking quickly, I have:
  • 0x000132A1: Default Legate Rikke that's used everywhere and then some.
  • 0x000D0573: Looks like she's used only in attacks on Whiterun, Riften, and Markarth, but it's unclear to me if this might just be a test version.
  • 0x000EA583: Looks like she's not used anywhere at all, but if she is, it's in association with Sovngarde.
Off-hand, I see no reason for her to develop a helmet. If you can establish when it happens, that might help, because Rikke's used too widely for me to track down something like that easily. You may also want to check if Nephele can figure anything out here. She's clearly ahead of me in understanding some parts of the CK. Robin Hoodtalk 05:46, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
Yep, I guess the third version is the one encountered in Sovngarde. As for the silly hat, she will wear it when you meet her near Ansilvund as part of the quest The Jagged Crown. Meaning, she doesn't wear it when you leave Castle Dour, but will wear it when you get there. She will obviously teleport to the location, so the "version" of her probably changes as well. --Krusty 19:52, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
There's a script attached to Legate Rikke during The Jagged Crown called "defaultaliaschangeoutfit" which changes her outfit to "ArmorImperialHeavyOutfitOfficer". Does that answer your question? ~ Dwarfmp 23:06, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
That'd do it, Dwarfmp! Thanks for looking into it for me...I've been really busy with stuff on another wiki today. Robin Hoodtalk 04:50, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Dirge dialogue[edit]

Hey there RH. I've decided to take a short break from revision and thought I'd dust off the ole OBNPCRP skills by writing up a few Thieves Guild npcs. I'm having a bit of trouble with Dirge at the moment, not the least because I haven't tinkered with the CK enough to get a full grasp of how it works. So here it is:

  • I got all of his various remarks on the page but it occurred to me that I only ever heard the first one of both categories (before/after joining). I seem to recall that in OB when there were dialogues with the same conditions and no specified way of random selection the one topping the list would be the only one chosen, a bit like AI packages. Is this at work in Skyrim too?
  • I don't think I've ever been able to trigger his Maul line, even though I've obviously heard Maul's line to get into the TG. Quite embarassingly, I can't find the quest list (I get individual quest info through "Use Info") so I can't check the "Dirge" variable of the "DialogueRiftenMaul" quest. I'm guessing something isn't working properly.
  • I found some dialogue for A Cornered Rat where he gives you info about Esbern. I don't recall him ever delivering the lines and the quest page agrees with me. Can't find anything that suggest he doesn't say the line and I don't have a save anywhere near the quest to check in-game unfortunately.

Sorry if the answers are really obvious but I'm still learning the ropes with the CK... And it is quite late at night for me :P --SerCenKing Talk 01:09, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Hey SerC! Good to see you back in NPC heaven. I’ll try and answer a few of your questions:
  • Seems like you nailed all the random “hello’s” correctly. With a few exceptions, all SR NPCs has a number of unique hello’s (at times related to your progress, like Dirge) and will always start with the first one, then the second, then… you get it. When they’re out of hello’s the will all just start saying ‘huh?’ and other radiant lines.
  • An awful lot of TG members and Riften residents have a unique Esbern dialogue, which can be triggered at Stage 20 of A Cornered Rat. I just heard Dirge’s line, so it’s definitely there, and is followed up but two new optional questions (where does he live / who else is looking for Esbern), but I’m not sure the replies are unique.
  • I’ll have to get back to you on the Maul thing. Takes a bit of time to due to poorly made saves.
Also, rememeber, we have this nifty new feature called “conversations”. For Dirge and the other inhabitants of the Flagon, they are listed as DialogueRiftenRaggedFlagonScene:
Tonilia: I need you to do me a favor, Dirge.
Dirge: Sure, Ton. You know I'm good for it.
Tonilia: There's a new guard nosing around the meadery. Can you do something about it?
Dirge: Gladly. He won't bother you anymore, I promise.
Vekel: Dirge! Did you take out the trash like I asked?
Dirge: Yeah. Threw it in the lake like you said.
Vekel: Tell me you looked through the trash before you did that.
Dirge: Take it easy, Vekel. How long we known each other? Yeah. I checked it. All the stuff is in the safe.
Best of luck! --Krusty 05:49, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I'm still trying to wrap my head around everything new in the CK myself, but I think I have some answers for you:
  • It looks to me like you're right. The "Random" flag probably should have been chosen, but it's not, so he only ever says the first one. (Krusty could be right too, though...I really haven't had the time to figure out the intricacies of the CK. Edit: In-game testing indicates that Krusty is right.)
  • The Maul line is triggered by pDirge_var being 1, but if there's a way to search through all the scripts to see where (or whether) that's used, I don't know it. I didn't see it set anywhere, but with only hit-and-miss tactics to rely on, that's not saying much. I suspect if it were going to be set anywhere, it'd be set on whatever line Maul says when you first greet him (which I'm not skilled enough to tell by the CK alone). It's possible they meant it to be when you first talk to him about Dirge...there's scripting there similar to what I'd expect...but if that's the case, they're checking the wrong variable in the Maul line, which might well explain why it's never said. I can't be even remotely definitive here, though.
  • What's the dialogue you found for A Cornered Rat that's not working? Robin Hoodtalk 06:10, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Thanks to both of you. I'll let the first issue rest, maybe with time a definitive answer will surface. I've moved the Maul dialogue to the Bugs section because it checks "pDirge_var" while Maul's dialogue sets "pDirge" to 1.... At least I think! Thanks to Krusty for confirming the Esbern dialogue! Also, I've found the relevant Dialogue for the two scenes (number 10) but all the tabs are blank! Where the hell are the lines?!! :P --SerCenKing Talk 11:58, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Is it on one of the other tabs, like the Misc dialogue or something? I've been puzzled by that a few times. I also remember seeing once where the only way I seemed to be able to get at some lines was to search for it and then double-click on the search results. I haven't seen that in a while, though, so it may have either been an early misunderstanding by me or a one-off issue. If you tell me the line, I'll see if I can figure out what's going on. If nothing else, if my early experience was a bug of some kind, it'd be good to know that. Robin Hoodtalk 22:04, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

How would one...[edit]

Go about determining the content related edits one has? —SkoomaManiac TalkContribs 01:02, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Special:Editcount - Enter your username in the box. That will give you all sorts of detailed info about your contributions. ABCface 01:09, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure exactly what counts as 'content-related' though. I don't believe Userspace edits count, and I'm not sure about talk pages in general. So I haven't actually helped much, huh? :P ABCface 01:11, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
I think it's all the pages that aren't user pages and that aren't talk pages, ie Lore, Books, Skyrim, Oblivion, Shivering, Morrowind, Tribunal, Bloodmoon, Redguard, Battlespire, Daggerfall, Arena, TES Travels, File, and UESPWiki, and by that I have 198, however, I sort of wonder if Templates and Sandboxes count. Regardless, I'm straddling the line and need some more edits before anyone takes me very seriously as far as a Patroller nomination goes, but I'll get there soon enough. —SkoomaManiac TalkContribs 01:16, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
I don't think that the UESPWiki ones count, since those pages tend to be more discussion than content (such as the Community Portal). The rest of those would count, though. --Velyanthe 01:19, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I wasn't completely sure about what counted. And Skooma, I know of a few people 'taking you seriously' as a potential future Patroller already, so once you're at the point where you definitely fit the requirements, you should go for it for sure. ABCface 01:25, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
Yay! I will.
Velyanthe, do my own content related Sandboxes count? Just for clarification. —SkoomaManiac TalkContribs 01:28, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

() I'm uncertain. I would doubt it, unless you do a lot of your work in sandboxes... With only 44 userspace edits, I'd say most likely not. But I don't think it would be very difficult for you to make about 100 more edits to regular articles within the next few weeks, especially since you've been recently making more minor edits around the wiki. You could also work on a project or fix up some stubs to raise that number. --Velyanthe 01:46, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

SkoomaManiac, I would just advise that you focus on the wiki rather than the number of edits you have. Just because you have enough edits doesn't mean you qualify. elliot (talk) 01:49, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
So happy I could help. :Þ To answer some of the little details, I would definitely say Templates count (if you can edit those, you can edit anything). Sandboxes are a little iffier. If you'd done one or two hundred content-related sandbox edits, I'd say we could see if the community wanted to make a special exemption, but when the number's fairly small, we probably shouldn't haggle over details. And I would definitely say that UESPWiki is out, since that tends to be talk page edits in most cases. Robin Hoodtalk 02:16, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
God forbid you should even ATTEMPT answering questions directed at you :P. Seriously, thank you, both for hosting this conversation and your input.
Elliot, I was more curious than anything. I understand the qualifications for patroller and that the requirements are entirely minimal. It's really a goal to look forward to if nothing else. You don't need to worry about me having a sense of entitlement. My activity record has been spotty at best (although I will argue to anyone paying attention that I was TWELVE when I made this account). —SkoomaManiac TalkContribs 04:28, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

The Bloody Ice[edit]

Hey RH. Time for our very first investigation - and a hard one at that. If you read through the tons of (mostly redundant) bugs on the Blood on the Ice talk page (including the archive), because you will realize that this quest just does something to the NPC behavior, and, since this is still more or less unfixed with the 1.4 patch, I figured it was about time to do something about it. I’ll just start with one of the biggest problems, namely Calixto Corrium.

  • The Invincible bug. see here. This bug tends to annoy an awful lot of people, and even if Beth solved a small bit of it with 1.4 (I think you can just enter Hjerim and kill him, but, according to this post you need to buy Hjerim?!? In any case, what is his problem? Clue: Looking into the game files, he has a whole ton on unused dialogue. Any skipped quest stages that could trigger odd behavior?
  • Why will he sometimes lock himself in the museum in the middle of the investigation? (I’m looking at that bug right now, and all I did was talk to him in the street about the amulet)
  • Will his behavior differ with each victim? (As described in the first link)
  • When exactly will the strange amulet turn into the Necromancer Amulet? What triggers this change? (A lot of people add tips, so it would be useful information)
  • Is he essential until the exact moment when he decides to claim his fourth victim in the Market?

Oh, and finally: Can you look into the 1.4 and figure out the EXACT changes to this quest, and everybody involved? Also, while I'm at it, notice the vn-tag in this section).

Thanks in advance! --Krusty 08:18, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

It's going to be a while before I can get back to you on most of this...I just don't understand the mechanics of the new quest system at all! I'll need to watch the various tutorials and look around the CK website before I can figure out questions that are this complex. About the only question I can answer right off the bat is that he doesn't start as Essential. What changes it, though, I have no clue at this point. Robin Hoodtalk 02:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I want to try to figure out some of that stuff, too, but I don't think I'm educated enough yet. I did the quest (at least two patches ago) but am totally confused by issues around Calixto. I'll put it on a list and see if I can still contribute later. Robin Hood, prepare for a friendly "teasing" comment, in which there is also certainly a slight motivation to show off: Maybe you know this already, but I learned it pretty recently. Technically, CK is not an acronym but an initialism. Which designates TES5 I think depends on whether it's pronounced "TESS-FIVE" or "T-E-S-FIVE." (If there is a standard pronunciation at all.) Yeah, I know: It's trivial. "Acronym" is probably better for general use. I just like that kind of stuff. --JRTalk E-mail 04:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
LOL. It's funny you should mention that cuz I actually thought of it as I was typing, but I figured TES5 was an acronym cuz I pronounce it "tess", so it was close enough. Besides, "initialism" is harder to type with all those i's in there. Of course, typing this message is much longer than typing "initialism", so maybe I should've just typed that in the first place. ;) Robin Hoodtalk 04:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Calixto is not flagged as essential in cslist, but he is so for my level 1 character - can't kill him. Not sure what sets the flag. As for the change to Necromancer Amulet, quest stage 120 seems to do this. That calls SetupStakeout(), which checks whether Calixto has the other amulet, and if yes exchanges it for the Necromancer one. (Method used in CK: open quest , going to "scripts", right click script, edit. After having identified the function, I clicked through the stages under "Quest Stages" till I found the call). --Alfwyn 17:34, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
That's one of the things I hadn't yet discovered was how to actually look at the scripts. Thanks for outlining how you got there. I was guilty of "thinking inside the box" and only looking at the buttons presented rather than trying to right-click. I've started reading through the CK wiki's tutorials, which is clearing up a lot of confusion for me about some of the minor aspects of quest design, but I haven't made it to "the good stuff" yet. Robin Hoodtalk 22:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Sarcasm 101: I prefer that people not learn things that I don't know. Can you just slow down, RH? :p --JRTalk E-mail 02:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

() Okay, you asked for a reminder, so here’s an 'easy' one – at least I hope it is... With the 1.4 patch installed, when exactly will the Hjerim lock change from a ‘key required’ to a pick-able lock? (currently incomprehensible bug description #7 on this list). --Krusty 16:23, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

It looks like the bullet in the Notes section for that is correct: the lock changes from impossible to master level the moment the quest starts by any means (Quest Stage 0). Robin Hoodtalk 04:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Hey RH! Forgive me if you have already explained this somewhere – but what is the determining factor for the second murder (you know, if you put Wuunferth to jail) ? How many days must pass? Or is it the counter again? --Krusty 08:48, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
It looks like it's just a matter of the number of days that have passed. From what I can tell, the second murder will trigger at midnight provided it's been at least three full days since you had Wuunferth arrested. Robin Hoodtalk 18:46, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Peer Review Template[edit]

Hey, thanks for making the appropriate changes to what I did with that. I wasn't completely sure how to go about that whole thing, and the way it is now is definitely better than what I did. :) ABCface 21:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, at first I was wondering why you'd copied the template instead of using it directly, and then I realized what you'd changed. I thought for a template like that, that a discussion link like you had would make a lot of sense, so I put one in. Robin Hoodtalk 03:15, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to templates, so thanks for catching that and making the change. :) ABCface 04:01, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I may have messed something up...[edit]

Hey, I noticed recently that many NPC pages had the class "Bard" (in the NPC Summary tables) redirecting to the Bard's College, rather than the Bard listings on the Skyrim:Classes page. While it's true that some NPCs are both bards in terms of class and musical bards as well, this is not the case for others (who are part of a Bard class, but show no such relation to musical bards in the game at all). So I figured I'd change the redirect, as an easy fix. However, before doing that I checked the 'What Links Here' page, and realized that there was about twice as many links concerning musical bards than there was concerning the Bard class (some overlap, but still twice as many if you count each). I figured it would be easier to create a new page as a redirect to the class since it would mean fixing less links, and went ahead and made the changes. But, now I'm realizing that I know next-to-nothing about templates (only how to include them on pages, and a basic understanding of how to edit parameters) and I may not have handled the situation appropriately. Like I said, I don't have a great understanding of templates, but it occurred to me that someone who does (such as yourself) may be able to make a change to the template itself to fix this rather than do what I did. So, in case I did mess that up, can you look over what I did with all that and maybe fix anything that should have been done differently (even if that's everything :P)?? Sorry for the trouble, and thanks! ABCface 02:59, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

PS: The changes were made around 02:24, 3 April 2012 (UTC) and affected 19 pages. In case that helps. :) ABCface 03:01, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
They look good to me. That's exactly the approach we should take. Any workarounds in the template get difficult to manage in a big hurry, so specific pages/redirects are the way to go. Robin Hoodtalk 03:15, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Sweet, I was totally convinced I messed that up. I'm glad to know that's not the case! Thanks for checking for me. :) ABCface 04:01, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

random question[edit]

This might seem pretty random, but I didn't know an appropriate place to ask the question, so of course I'm asking you. :P On the Main Page, there's a note on the top right of the page which states "We are currently maintaining # articles." The linked number takes you to a statistics page, but since I've noticed the number go up over time I've become curious about it. Basically, what I'm wondering is if there is somewhere on the site which shows a list of the most recently created articles. I know it's not important at all, I'm just curious about it. :) ABCface 06:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware of, no. I think the only thing you can do is look at Recent Changes and then search for " N " (with the spaces but not the quotes). My patrolling database can do what you want, but that's not on the site. :) Robin Hoodtalk 06:21, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Tell me more about this omnipotent database of epicness. • JATalk 06:24, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm with him^. haha, thanks for the reply. Like I said, it's not really important, just something I was curious about because I'm obsessed with addicted to always on this site ...curious. :) ABCface 06:30, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
LOL! Basically, I'm downloading all the page edits entries from Recent Changes, as well as the Patrol Log, so if you can figure out something from looking at those, the database can also do it (and probably faster, unless it's something relatively simple). So if I really wanted to, I could tell you how many edits you've made on school days between the hours of 8 and 3, for example (or at least I could if I knew what time zone you were in). :Þ Also, I'm about to get edit conflicted, cuz in previewing this, I just got a new messages notice...just thought I'd mention that. Robin Hoodtalk 06:35, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Oh, the one limitation is that the database only goes back to November 26. If I wanted to, I could get the Patrol Logs from before that, but once something drops off of Recent Changes, that's it...you have to figure it out by other means, like page histories and such. I've never really seen much point in getting even the Patrol Logs, much less anything more complex from that long ago. Robin Hoodtalk 06:38, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Neat! What language did you write the database in? I'd love to make my own, but my shatellite internet has a 200mb daily limit and a horrific latency that ranges anywhere from 1.5 to 30 seconds, my router has a tendency to randomly die (requiring a manual reset), plus my best computer for that is a 6-year old 1.67GHz 17" Powerbook G4. Plus, it has a PowerPC processor, which means that anything made since 2008 isn't compatible with the processor itself (getting Minecraft to work was fun). It's hard to be a geek when you live in the middle of nowhere :) • JATalk 07:23, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

() I'm just using Microsoft Access and the built-in VBA compiler. VBA's getting a bit outdated at this point, but it serves well enough. Robin Hoodtalk 07:31, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Blocking IP User 50.10.67.186[edit]

Hey there RobinHood! since I don't have blocking rights or anything, I was wondering if you could block the IP user address 50.10.67.186. He / she has made inappropriate edits to talk discussions on another user's page (which I deleted and formally gave a warning), and then went on to try to pick a fight with me for no legitimate reason. Much appreciated Helenaannevalentine 07:43, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Looks like Krusty just beat me to it. Robin Hoodtalk 07:46, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) All done. I'll also keep an eye on that IP when the week expires. --Krusty 07:48, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Thank you guys so much, I was just heading offline when he /she decided to start verbally attacking me on my own talk-page. Thanks again! Helenaannevalentine 20:24, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

oops[edit]

So, if I accidentally hit 'Mark as Patrolled' when I meant to leave an edit unpatrolled, is it okay to just add a VN tag to the added information? There's no way to 'unpatrol' an edit, is there? ABCface 05:31, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

No, there's no way to unpatrol an edit. I seem to remember Nephele had considered doing something like that, but I may be misremembering. I think a VN is probably the best way to go in that case, unless there's someone you can direct the question to specifically. Robin Hoodtalk 05:36, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Well, I'm referring to this edit. From what I remembered, it wasn't true, so I was going to delete the note. Then I took a look at the Merchant and Thieves Guild pages, and the information seems contradictory if I'm not missing something. Maybe a VN tag would be best anyway? ABCface 05:43, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, if there's contradictory info, I'd definitely slap a VN on it, and mention—either in the note or on the talk page—the contradictory pages. Robin Hoodtalk 05:46, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Will do. Thanks :) ABCface 05:54, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Asterixes/asterices[edit]

I noticed that you edited the page for The Taste of Death quest, removing each asterix in the bugs section, but left them in the notes section. I don't see any visible difference in the sections. Do those asterices have any purpose? I used one in my edit because everyone else was doing it (I just wanted to seem cool). Just curious. --Xyzzy 05:31, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

The Bug template automatically puts in an asterisk, so they're totally unnecessary when you're using the template. It uses a kind of funky workaround to ignore existing asterisks (which is the correct plural, btw, I was just being silly) though, which is something I'd like to eventually remove if it's not needed, since it increases the line spacing slightly. Robin Hoodtalk 05:38, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Request For Help[edit]

I have just began writing up the lore page for the everflowing ewer. Could you view this and give me pointers to improve and add information as I have never written a lore article before? Thanks. --Manic 18:41, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

You're asking the wrong guy...I rarely even patrol in Lore space. :) The one thing that strikes me right off the bat, though, is that if we have a picture of it, that would be a good thing to add to the page. Try Legoless, Minor Edits, or Alpha Kenny Buddy. They're usually fairly active in Lore space, as I recall. Robin Hoodtalk 18:50, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Task for HotnBOThered[edit]

Okay, I recently started the page Skyrim:Loading Screens, and I filled in what I can by copy-and-pasting the info from the CSList. However, it took me two hours to just do that, and it'll take way too long to fill in the rest of the info. Is this a task suitable for your bot? The description of the 3D model can be manually filled in.

Also, my bit about the keyword connection is only based on observation - I have no idea if this is verified within the game files or not. • JATalk 02:22, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know anything about keywords, but I do know that some loading screens will be restricted until you have completed or started certain quests and/or by your current location. The tips shouldn't be related, in my experience. Vely►Talk►Email 02:33, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Given that it's an update to a single page, I wouldn't put the bot on it per se, but I'm just getting to the point where I can extract useful information from the game data (which will later be integrated with the bot), so this might prompt me to play around with it a little more if you don't mind waiting a bit. Could be as early as tonight if all goes well, but it could also be a couple of days if I have difficulty. (With the CFS, I just never know if I'm gonna be able to program for 30 minutes or 3 hours). If you're in a hurry, though, Nephele can probably do this quite easily, as she's developed far more in terms of processing game data (she did, after all, create the CSList). Even if you do decide to ask her, I'll do it on my end anyway, since it's a relatively simple task to ensure that I can parse data in a useful way. Robin Hoodtalk 02:54, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Just an update: I've done some programming tonight and I'm happy with where I got to, though it doesn't help you a bit. I can now spit out exactly the same thing you already have. Oh joy. :) Tomorrow, I'll get started on importing the actual messages and probably delving into the NIF info as well. Obviously, that'll just be the path to the NIF file, not any kind of representation of the NIF itself (which there are whole programs designed for that I couldn't hope to write). As for the keywords, there are no keywords per se, but there are various conditions on many loading screens. While decrypting the conditions is somewhere I intend to get to eventually, that's a project in its own right, so that won't be coming any time soon. I can, however, readily indicate whether or not a load screen has conditions, then we can look up those conditions in the CK itself and figure out how to summarize them. Robin Hoodtalk 08:04, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Glad to hear you've made so much progress! We could take screenshots of each of the NIF files, but there are about 300 of them and taking screenshots would be a whole lot of work for very little gain. I think a description of the object in question is just fine. As for the conditions, you're right - according to this, it uses a CTDA field, which is just a conditional operator. • JATalk 14:05, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I've got another (hopefully simple) job for the bot :). Krusty has been awesome enough to make real icons out of the ones EpicSpam designed for Skyrim pages, all found here. Do you think you could have the bot update all the Skyrim pages to use the new icons instead of the old OB ones? eshetalk 22:59, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

That sounds like a good task for the bot, and probably a relatively easy one. Can you just give me an example on one or two pages of exactly what would need to be done. I haven't really been following the icon discussion, and I'm going to be a bit short on time for the next few days while I do a whole lot of tax-related things. Dunno about other countries, but it's that time of the year here. Robin Hoodtalk 00:16, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Well, currently these are being used. If I were doing this manually I would pick out cases where they're being used on Skyrim pages and go from there. A couple of examples I've been looking at are Skyrim:Services and Skyrim:Solitude_People. I think "___ People" are where most of the icons are, but I'm not totally sure. I guess we've decided the color-coded trainer icons that are already being used are fine (like here), so you can ignore all those.
The only place where it seems to get a little complicated is the fact that we no longer have one catch-all icon for merchants. As you'll see, there's one for each type (general, alchemist, jeweler, etc.). Honestly though, if you don't want to (or can't) make the bot sort all that out, I'd say just give them all the general merchant icon and (*gulp*) I'll do it manually. I used to be part bot, right? ;)
Anyway, hope that helps, and no rush at all. Taxes can be such a nightmare. I'm totally paying someone to do mine next year, because it's just not worth the headache! eshetalk 00:37, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
I think it's awesome someone finally noticed that discussion died and decided to do something about it. Thanks, Eshe! One question, though: is the one labeled 'Companion' referring to followers or the Companions? If it's referring to followers (which makes more sense to me, but I could be wrong...) perhaps the image should be renamed appropriately? ABCface 02:11, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
My impression from the description is that it's for followers. If so, we should definitely rename it before the bot runs to save renaming it afterwards. Given that it's currently unused, even if we're wrong about the intent, a different icon can always be put in its place and the original shuffled off for use to mark Companions. Robin Hoodtalk 04:20, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
It’s definitely an icon for a follower – must be a leftover from when people referred to followers as ‘companions’. When doing the png’s last night, I decided to use the companions-name for reference to the initial document. I’ll rename it now so the bot can get busy. --Krusty 07:03, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, Krusty. I won't be doing anything tonight, but the worst of the tax stuff is done now, so I should have a lot more time tomorrow. Because of the split-up of merchant icons, I think my plan is going to be to do the Navimg ones first, then see what's left over and whether that should be done by hand or by bot. Given that I've already done something similar with the Morrowind icons a month or two ago, I'm not expecting much difficulty. Having said that, I'm planning on doing these requests in order, so the load screens will go first, but there's not a whole lot left to do there, so I may well get both of these done tomorrow. We'll see. Robin Hoodtalk 07:20, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

() Okay, that's one down. I'll do the bot stuff tomorrow. I've had a busy day, so I'm just gonna do a little patrolling, then take the rest of the night off and play Skyrim. ;) Robin Hoodtalk 05:02, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Here are the "rules" as I seem them, currently looking only at those that are in "Navimg" templates. Do these make sense to everyone?
Replace this icon With this one Where "title" is Specifics
Dooricon small.png Dooricon small.png SR-icon-House.png SR-icon-House.png
Fenceicon small.png Fenceicon_small.png SR-icon-Fence.png SR-icon-Fence.png
Horseicon small.png Horseicon_small.png SR-icon-Horse.png SR-icon-Horse.png Same icon for Carriage Services and Stables
Merchanticon small.png Merchanticon_small.png SR-icon-Alchemy.png SR-icon-Alchemy.png Alchemist, Apothecary Should I also change all "Apothecary" to "Alchemist"?
Merchanticon small.png Merchanticon_small.png SR-icon-Equipment.png SR-icon-Equipment.png Armor, Blacksmith, Fletcher
Merchanticon small.png Merchanticon_small.png SR-icon-Follower.png SR-icon-Follower.png Dog Breeder
Merchanticon small.png Merchanticon_small.png SR-icon-Food.png SR-icon-Food.png Butcher, Fish Monger, Food and Drink, Produce, Wine Seller Should I standardize these all to "Food and Drink"?
Merchanticon small.png Merchanticon_small.png SR-icon-General Store.png SR-icon-General Store.png Apparel, Books, General Goods
Merchanticon small.png Merchanticon_small.png SR-icon-Jeweler.png SR-icon-Jeweler.png Jeweler
Sleepicon small.png Sleepicon small.png SR-icon-Inn.png SR-icon-Inn.png
Spellsicon small.png Spellsicon_small.png SR-icon-Spells.png SR-icon-Spells.png
Repairicon small.png Repairicon_small.png No current replacement
OB-icon-skill-LightArmor.pngOB-icon-skill-Marksman.pngOB-icon-skill-Security.pngOB-icon-skill-Sneak.pngTrainicon small.png Various training icons No current replacement
Robin Hoodtalk 19:57, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't think the Apothecary should necessarily be changed to Alchemist. As for the generalization of 'Food and Drink' I do think that would be better, but, again, it's not necessary. ABCface 20:03, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, looks good to me! eshetalk 20:05, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
Okay, the code's ready to go, so I'll let it run. Per ABCface's suggestion, I won't change the Alchemist/Apothecary, but I will for Food and Drink. Robin Hoodtalk 20:32, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
All done. Apart from one image that wasn't using Navimg, all the remaining ones after the bot ran were on Skyrim:Services. Since it was only the one page and it was missing a bunch anyway, I just converted that one by hand. Robin Hoodtalk 21:06, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
SR-icon-Trainer.png is done. It's the generic trainer icon. elliot (talk) 01:14, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

() I'm actually gonna hold off on changing that one because I'm considering replacing most (all?) of the Navimg calls with a new template specifically for those types of icons. It might be specific to service icons, so you could do something like {{ServiceIcon|fence}} or it may be more generic than that. I want to see how we're using the template in the various namespaces before I formulate more of a gameplan than that. (Which is why HnB is currently re-running a Navimg check, but this time in all spaces, not just SR.)

The reason I thought of this is that whenever we upgrade to a newer version of MediaWiki, Navimg will be redundant, since the standard [[File:...]] coding will handle everything Navimg does, and probably a lot faster than calling a routine in an add-on (#icon). But of course, that also means that it'll be that much easier to get names wrong, images wrong, etc. I figure this way, the switch away from Navimg will be a one-minute job when the time comes, plus I can build default values into the new template to reduce the inconsistency mentioned above. Similarly, most or all future image updates will be to the one template rather than needing the bot to make the change to a bunch of different pages. Robin Hoodtalk 01:52, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I nearly can't live with that repair-icon not being consistent with the others. Is it possible to somehow extract a similar version from the CK - or should I try out my skills with a pencil in photoshop and draw that axe? --Krusty 00:14, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Is there an in-game icon for that in Skyrim? Robin Hoodtalk 00:23, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Gah, apologies - no repair services in Skyrim and no SR pages links to the icon. Must've been tired there! --Krusty 05:21, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Two Questions[edit]

Okay, I feel dumb asking this since it seems like something I should have figured out by now, but can you explain the <noinclude> code to me? I read this section explaining it, but are there other cases when it is used as well? On regular articles, what's the purpose of placing a <noinclude> code surrounding anything other than a template?

Also, a question which is not important, but I'm just curious about since I've seen you do it a few times recently in talk pages. What does <g> mean? ABCface 21:11, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

The noinclude tag on a regular page is usually used because it's being transcluded to some other page. This is common in Lore space, as well as some other things like artifacts, houses, etc. It just means that when you transclude that page to another page, don't include that section of the page.
<g> is just an older form of smiley or *grin*. I still use it when I'm typing something in parentheses because it's a little confusing to see (example :)) with the two closing parentheses. <eg> was also common, for "evil grin". Robin Hoodtalk 21:17, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I didn't think about transclusions, and thinking about where I've seen it, that seems to make sense. Thanks. And thanks for clarifying the less important info too. :) ABCface 21:21, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Something I have always been curious about...[edit]

What is the point of pages like this, which look completely identical to this? The /doc pages seem redundant to me, but then again, I don't know anything about templates, so I may be missing something lol. ESQuestion?EmailContribs 03:37, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Mostly convenience. The main template page, when edited, will contain only the template code itself with the minor exception of the Doc link at the end, making it easy to distinguish the code from the docs. The /Doc page being separate also makes for easier editing that's less confusing to those who aren't familiar with templates. Having the docs separate might also make a difference in terms of what MediaWiki tries to update when the docs are updated (i.e., only the docs visible on the template page itself, rather than uselessly updating every page that calls the template), but I'm not 100% sure of that. Robin Hoodtalk 03:42, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
I could almost hear your words fly over my head lol. Thanks, Robin. ESQuestion?EmailContribs 03:44, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
LOL. Well, hopefully the first two words made sense, at least! :P Basically, it's easier to edit either the template or the docs, instead of always editing both at the same time. Better? ;) Robin Hoodtalk 03:48, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
First two words did make sense. The "easier explanation" still makes it seem redundant to me, so rather than hassle you with my pointless questions, I'll let you get back to your template work, lol. ESQuestion?EmailContribs 03:52, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

DR transclusion troubles[edit]

So, I was thinking about this again, and I came across Extension:MultiBoilerplate, which may be a better way to handle the whole noinclude issue until we get 1.17. I'm running this by you because I'm seeing if you've though of anything since we last talked about it... Haha elliot (talk) 05:53, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

No, I haven't really given it much thought since...what was it...a couple of years ago now? ;) My brain is in the middle of the EffectLink issues right now, so if you can outline the process you'd see happening, I'll have a look at it in more depth tomorrow and let you know if I have any thoughts (either whatsoever or about the process specifically <g>). Robin Hoodtalk 06:21, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
Well, we could still use the inputbox to load the page up, but you can see the extension in use here. It basically loads whatever we want onto the page. It adds an extra step, so that would really be my only concern.
Another possibility would be to move all of the pages into the UESPWiki namespace. I'm not too sure how the categorization affects that page, but being tired won't help me remember. I'll look into it more, but that is the basic idea. elliot (talk) 06:27, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Navbox[edit]

So, I managed to get Wikipedia's navbox working, which looks 100x better. But I've run into a small problem. First, you'll have to add the CSS to the page (from User:Elliot/monobook.css). Then look at User:Elliot/Sandbox/12. Here's the code:

{{User:Elliot/Sandbox/11
|name       = Oblivion Settlements
|title      = [[Oblivion:Cities|Cities]] & [[Oblivion:Settlements|Towns]]
|state      = 
|listclass  = hlist
|navbar     = off
|basestyle  = background:#99FF99;

|group1     = [[Oblivion:The Imperial City|The Imperial City]]
|list1      = {{User:Elliot/Sandbox/10|ns_base=Oblivion|Arboretum|Arcane University|Arena District|Elven Gardens District|Green Emperor Way|Market District|Prison District|Talos Plaza District|Temple District|Waterfront District}}

|group2     = Cities
|list2      = {{User:Elliot/Sandbox/10|ns_base=Oblivion|Anvil|Bravil|Bruma|Cheydinhal|Chorrol|Kvatch|Leyawiin|Skingrad}}

|group3     = Towns
|list3      = {{User:Elliot/Sandbox/10|ns_base=Oblivion|Aleswell|Applewatch|Blankenmarch|Bleaker's Way|Border Watch|Brindle Home|Cadlew Chapel|Cloud Ruler Temple|Cropsford|Drakelowe|Gottlesfont Priory|Greyland|Gweden Farm|Hackdirt|Harlun's Watch|Harm's Folly|Isolated House|Knights of the Thorn Headquarters|Lord Drad's Estate|Lord Rugdumph's Estate|Melus Petilius' House|Odiil Farm|Pell's Gate|Roland Jenseric's Cabin|Shardrock|Shetcombe Farm|Temple of the Ancestor Moths (settlement)|Water's Edge|Weatherleah|Weye|[[Oblivion:Weynon Priory (place)|Weynon Priory]]|White Stallion Lodge|Whitmond Farm}}
}}

Everything works fine, but I don't like having the additional templates for the lists. I was wanting to the get the same result, but use some type of mix of splitargs and easier coding like Anvil, Bravil, Bruma, Cheydinhal, Chorrol, Kvatch, Leyawiin, Skingrad. I have been trying to think of a way to do it, but it isn't coming to me.

I guess I'm asking if you think it is a better system. I thought about just doing raw text and linking, but I was wanting to make it as simple as possible. What do you think? elliot (talk) 08:34, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you can get away with using parameters like you want to. It'd be really really nice, I'll admit, but as far as I know, there's no trick we can use that would do that. (Well, there's one, skipping splitargs and using repeated #explodes, but that'd be insanely hard on our poor servers, so don't do it. :P) The only other way I can think of that might work is something similar to what I've done with {{Parameters}}, where the subtemplate looks for a "magic" parameter. So your call would look something like {{...| ~[[Oblivion:The Imperial City|The Imperial City]]|Arboretum|Arcane University|...}}. The tilde being the "magic" character saying "this one starts a new row". It's a little ugly, though, and I'm not sure how much that kind of parsing would hit our servers. The subtemplate approach you've used above is probably the best from that point of view. Anyway, I'm off to bed. I'll have a better look at this tomorrow. Robin Hoodtalk 08:49, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Leveled Lists[edit]

Am I doing them right? I decided to tackle the leveled loot for Dwarven Automatons, which in turn references a crapload of other leveled lists, which use their own leveled lists... You see where this is going. I ended up adding the leveled lists for gems (which thankfully there's only one of), Dwarven Scraps, and Soul Gems (which was especially horrific). The leveled loot for the Dwarven Automatons still references leveled Ore and two different leveled lists for Arrows, which we'll need to record. This is just for three leveled loot lists for creatures. I'm concerned that as we go farther along and start adding leveled lists for Bandits and such that we'll end up with a runaway list of leveled lists, including many complicated lists like this. Thoughts? • JATalk 20:51, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

That's one of those pages that's definitely going to take some thinking about. We'll almost certainly want to split it into subpages or related pages in some way, but I don't have any brilliant ideas as to what, specifically. To some degree, we're going to have to wait and see what we want to put up, but at the same time, I don't think we want to have monstro-page for too much longer, so maybe it's best to split it now and see if that gives us any ideas. I don't know if, in the end, we'll want to record every last leveled list or if it'll only be a few that're relevant to rewards and NPC inventories and such, but even if it's only a few, it'll be a lot as you noticed by adding "just the three" which needed several more.
Clearly, though, the detailed lists are going to be geared towards those who want in-depth technical information. I think we might want to start including small summaries at the top for those who just want the Cliff notes. For example, with gems, in addition what's already there, you could maybe put something like "Starts out with only amethysts and garnets, but by level 20, sapphires, rubies, and flawless amethysts are more common, with flawless emeralds and diamonds becoming possible by level 40.". (Note that that's just based on a quick glance...don't quote that unless it's actually accurate!)
That's my thoughts for now...it's gonna be a challenge no matter what, though, I think. Robin Hoodtalk 21:01, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Alright. The problem with subpages is that there is a lot of cross-referencing of leveled lists (so far I've seen this with gems and soul gems), and having to open five or six different windows just to get the complete leveled info isn't ideal. On the other hand, a monstro-page that's 500kb long (it will be at this rate) is worse. Maybe having separate subpages is best, with titles such as "General", "Quests" (or maybe individual quest lines if that page is too lengthy), "NPCs", "Creatures", and so on. On the other hand, there are some lists that are quite lengthy but are only used in a handful of leveled lists. Should we note these under "General", the subpage where that list is used, or a "Miscellaneous" subpage? • JATalk 22:22, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, we're definitely going to have to give some thought to organization. As you say, whenever possible, we'll want to keep related lists on the same page. We may need to consider transclusions and perhaps {{Showhide}} to keep relevant information together but the visual clutter to a minimum. I think your suggested subpages sound good off the top of my head, but I haven't done a whole lot of work with leveled lists. Still, they do tend to divide at least into things like actors, items, etc. NPCs vs. Creatures might be a tough call. There are some of the draugr lists where you can get a draugr, which might be considered a creature, or you can get a dragon priest, which is definitely more NPC-like. Robin Hoodtalk 22:35, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
{{Showhide}} is a good idea. I think separating NPCs and Creatures will be best, because not only are there a bunch of Bandits (first thing that comes to mind) but that also gives us a place to cover specific, unique NPCs. As far as Draugr/Dragon Priests, I think that those would go under "Creatures" and just be lumped together due to their commonality. • JATalk 22:51, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Sounds good...at least until we start implementing it and discover why it's not going to be that easy. ;) Robin Hoodtalk 23:05, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Helgird Bug?[edit]

Hey RH! As part of our work with the BOTI trigger/bugs-hell, I decided to do a bit of work on the related NPCs. Of course, it took me seconds to run into a new bug. I figured I’d put it here, as it is not really related to the quest – and it is quite simple, I hope: According to cslist, Helgird is supposed to sleep between 2am and 8am (or 7am, when her PrayAtGraves package takes over). Unfortunately, she just wanders around the Hall of the Dead all night long, in particular near the front door. There is an owned bed down there, so I guess there’s something wrong with that. Can you figure out what is wrong? Thanks in advance! --Krusty 11:50, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I like it when you give me ones I can solve! The problem is that Helgird is allowed to wander up to 2000 units away from her starting position (near the door) to find a bed. The only bed in the place is 2043 units away. I allowed a wider search range, and sure enough, at 2:20am when I went to check, she was fast asleep. Robin Hoodtalk 19:52, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Sounds absolutely correct - I was wondering why she never even heads down to her workplace. Sounds like some kind of bug explanation about radius and wrong starting position. Thanks! --Krusty 20:08, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Oops, you already added it - watchlist syndrome! --Krusty 20:09, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Another sleeping bug - or at least I think so; this time, it's Embry. I already added the bug - but it could use a bit of investigation when you have the time. Thanks in advance. --Krusty 22:32, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Exact same issue, except this time, there's nothing close about it. His search-for-a-bed radius extends about to the end of the fire pit. Robin Hoodtalk 06:15, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Your bot[edit]

I'm partially concerned with your bot's protecting the different messages pages. As you know by now (thanks to Deletion Review), the protection template will be included with all of the preloaded messages. I think at this point, they should stay protected, but the template should be removed. They will surely cause trouble down the road (the road that leads to 1.17 that is >.>). elliot (talk) 22:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Another bot issue is that it's been changing the capitalization of template parameters, e.g., changing enchCost to enchcost (example), even if the parameters are case-sensitive. I've changed the Effects Summary page so that the parameters are again recognized, so once the queue gets caught up all the effect pages will be fixed. But any other templates altered by the bot need to be checked to make sure there aren't other parameters that have been broken, and whatever bug is making the bot change parameter names needs to be fixed. --NepheleTalk 22:40, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
I thought the preloader automatically got rid of noincludes. I'll double-check, but it's easy enough to remove the templates if need be.
As for the lower-casing of parameters, it's not automatic—I did that deliberately on at least one template, and I'm wondering if I accidentally reused code I shouldn't have. The reason I did it for the one template, whichiever one it was, was that there were case=any tags all over the place, and I figured if I was going through every last one of them anyway, we might as well make them all lower-case and save ourselves the trouble. I'll look into both issues and make whatever changes need to be made. Robin Hoodtalk 23:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Okay, turns out Elliot is right, so I'll go through by hand and remove those, as well as updating the bot not to include them if it finds any future messages that need protection.
The lower-casing for Effects Summary was indeed the one I did deliberately. Now that they're lower-case across the board, I believe we can just remove the case=any's unless there's a reason not to. It occurs to me only now that your bot might be using mixed case...didn't think of that at the time or I would've coordinated with you. Sorry! Robin Hoodtalk 23:54, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, yeah, I see what I did now. That was me not thinking through the entire process. I had done it deliberately, but hadn't checked that all parameters had case=any tags before changing them. Robin Hoodtalk 00:00, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Permacorpses[edit]

Hey RH! A very well-intentioned anonymous editor seems to have gone to a great deal of trouble to generate this list of NPCs who leave permanent corpses. It obviously couldn't stay on the category page, but if it's accurate, it could be used to add this information to the NPC summaries (or wherever). Any way you could check it out and see if it's legit? eshetalk 19:14, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm just finishing the last of my tax stuff, so I'll be away for most/all of today, but I'll look into it tomorrow. Robin Hoodtalk 19:22, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! (And good luck!) eshetalk 19:29, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

BOTI pt 1[edit]

Hey RH! I tried to draft something that was meant as a simple explanation on the whole “How to Trigger”-thing we’ve been working on (desperate attempt here). Can you read through it and tell me what you think? I know there’s still stuff to test, but I figured it wouldn’t hurt to add a bit of info now. Thanks! --Krusty 21:09, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

![edit]

I just noticed your notice (ha) at the top of this page. Happy happy birthday! :) ABCface 03:12, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

So when are you retiring from the Elder Council? Happy birthday! elliot (talk) 03:14, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
I was looking for your addition of the notice, only to realize that you have all of this added to your page automatically with templates. Do you have to show us up and gain an extra level? I hope you enjoy your birthday, regardless! --AKB Talk Cont Mail 03:19, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Happy birthday, Rob. Have a good one! ESQuestion?EmailContribs 03:52, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, everyone! Robin Hoodtalk 04:19, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Happy Birthday! I have nothing witty to say, sorry! • JATalk 04:40, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Happy Birthday to you! Here is some bloody icing on the cake! :D --Krusty 07:36, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


Cupcake.png
You have been given a cupcake!

Happy birthday, RobinHood! (And congrats on hitting 15k edits too!) Thanks for all your hard work. Hope you have an awesome day :). eshetalk 13:57, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Happy birthday indeed, Robinhood70! Wolok gro-Barok 14:39, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Happy birthday to you
You were born on a zoo
You rob from the rich
And give to the poo...r!
.:P, Happy Birthday. The Silencer has spokenTalk 18:29, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Hahaha! That was funny, Silencer! :) Robin Hoodtalk 18:31, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Showhide in a simple table[edit]

Hiya. Can you see what I'm trying to do below, and ... you know ... do it? Or Jak, Elliot, anyone?

--JRTalk E-mail 04:02, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Although I am not sure it's necessary, I fixed it for you. elliot (talk) 04:09, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Exactly what I would've done. If the table will be wide enough that the title and show/hide fit once it's filled in, it's not necessary to add the width...just add appropriate content to the table and it'll look fine. If your text is really narrow, though, you can add a width specifier, sized to whatever looks good on the page you're adding this to. Robin Hoodtalk 04:13, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
I had to fix the Showhide/end - it was bugging me :) • JATalk 04:43, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Actually, I just noticed what you're doing. I wasn't paying attention earlier (like I said in my update above, I'm low on energy, which inherently means not attentive to detail). Another possibility would be the following, though it requires that the title and text be in separate cells (and the body of the text can't be a title cell itself):
Robin Hoodtalk 04:52, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, all. Your qualification noted, Elliot. Not sure it will belong either. I suppose it might be helpful to some, and that its presence may be unobtrusive enough to justify it. I'll think on it further, seek additional input, publish it and let editors have their way with it, or one or more of the above. --JRTalk E-mail 05:36, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Logrolf![edit]

Hey RH! I’m working on a revamp for The House of Horrors and I have a quick question. Right now, the page says that Logrolf can be found in a ‘random Forsworn location’. That is a bit unclear, so I was wondering: How many possible locations can he spawn in? Is it worth to make a list of the possible locations? Thanks in advance! ☺ --Krusty 20:40, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

According to the CSList, the possible dungeon must meet the following conditions:
Has Keyword Does Not Have Keyword Other
  • LocTypeDungeon
  • LocTypeHagravenNest
  • LocTypeFalmerHive
  • LocTypeDwarvenAutomatons
  • LocTypeVampireLair
  • LocTypeDragonPriestLair
  • LocTypeGiantCamp
CaptiveMarker (0x000130fa)
This info is listed under ALLS=37, which is about two-thirds of the way down the page. I don't know about getting a list of possible places, besides just going through manually. • JATalk 20:56, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Dialogue Check?[edit]

Hey RH! I was about to add the following two conversations to some Dushnikh Yal NPC pages, but then I had second thoughts about the participants. Can you double-check? My guess is that it is between Oglub and Ghorbash - which also means it will never be heard in-game, which is why I'd like you to take an extra CK look. Dialogue in question is referred to as DialogueDushnikhYalMineScene02 and DialogueDushnikhYalMineScene01 in the game files.

Oglub: "You could challenge Burguk, my brother. Yours is the stronger swordarm."
Ghorbash: "Serving in the Legion taught me to respect leadership. The stronghold needs Burguk."

Ghorbash: "It is a fine day to work the mines."
Oglub: "This metal will serve the forge well, my brother."

Thanks in advance! --Krusty 22:11, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

That's correct, according to the CSList the conversation is between Oglub and Ghorbash. • JATalk 22:18, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
And confirmed in the CK as well now; I put the speaker into your text, above. Robin Hoodtalk 22:46, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks a lot, both of you. Problem is, Oglub never leaves the mine and Ghorbash never enters the mine, rendering the dialogue bits 'unused'. So I thought a second look would be the best. Thanks again. --Krusty 22:48, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, the dialogue is set to only trigger in the mine, so Ghorbash is the one "at fault" here, for never going into the mine. He can become a follower, though, so it might be possible to trigger the dialogue by having him follow you into the mines. Robin Hoodtalk 23:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Hmm, it's worth a shot. I'll take a look tomorrow. :) --Krusty 23:22, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Legate Rikke Thread[edit]

Haha, I’m not done yet. But I hope these questions are easy to answer from the CK and I’m desperate to finish my month-long project on Rikke’s whereabouts. So, what I have left to do is:

  • Figure out the three(?) versions of Rikke. When will either version be used in-game – and can it be noted somehow?
  • According to the cslist, she has a full schedule, with city walks and sleep. That never happens in the game. Why?

I really hope you can look into these issues when you get a moment – no rush, though, and thanks in advance.--Krusty 23:21, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay, the three versions of Rikke and how they're used are:
Rikke Usage Notes
CWBattleRikke (000D0573) I can't entirely figure out when this version is used, but it's clearly to do with a battle in Markarth, Riften, and Whiterun. In fact, there are two different instances of her near Whiterun. More than that, I can't tell you right now, especially since I haven't played the CW storyline through yet, so I have no idea how those cities and her tie into all of it. If you can point me to a specific quest or whatever that might shed some light on this, I can do some more investigation.

Update: The one near the bridge in Whiterun looks to be the speech-giver. There are some oddities here where sometimes the quest refers to the main Rikke, and other times it refers to this one, but clearly this one is in use in Whiterun. I don't see any similar references in Markarth and Riften, though, so I'm not sure what those ones are about.

MQ304Rikke (000EA583) This version is only used in the Sovngarde quest and is activated only if the main Rikke (below) has been killed at least once (not sure she can be killed more than once, but hey, I report what I see!).
Rikke (000132A1) The "main" Rikke. This is the one you encounter every other time you see her, and her nominal "home base" is Castle Dour.
I'm not 100% certain what's going on in terms of her schedule, but what I've found matches the behaviour you describe, so I suspect I'm looking at the right thing. :) It looks like the main Civil War quest (CW) overrides her regular packages and puts its own in place. The top ones are all schedules for the various camps, then the one right under that (CWMapTableSandboxSolitude) would appear to have her doing exactly what you said: standing at the map table 24/7. If believe that if she survives the Civil War, the packages that you're seeing on her actor page would kick in then. Robin Hoodtalk 11:05, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Damn, I managed to forget all about good ol' Rikke this evening. I'll be back first thing tomorrow morning with a complete list of her appearances during all the quests - and then I plan on shamelessly stealing your table! --Krusty 00:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

() Okay, I present to you - the HELMET TABLE:

Rikke Quest
No Helmet Joining the Legion, The Jagged Crown (when handing you the quest in Castle Dour), Battle for Whiterun, Season Unending, Battle for Solitude.
Helmet The Jagged Crown (only when she meets you near Korvanjund), Reunification of Skyrim (all sub-quests included), Battle for Windhelm.

--Krusty 11:53, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

See my update on CWBattleRikke above, though it's mostly what we covered in IRC. Did you say you'd found some unused scripts in Markarth and Riften or was that only for other locations? Specifically, in Markarth, she's at the end of the bridge right near Markarth Military Camp, and in Riften, she's at Riften Military Camp. Given how undeveloped those pages are, I'm guessing they never actually appear in-game?
I'll have a look at the various helmet/no-helmet things tomorrow. Robin Hoodtalk 12:16, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
For the Riften/Markarth mystery (as well as the supposed "Imperial attack on Whiterun"), I think they were all sacked late in development. Recently, The Silencer asked me about some of the unknown military camps, and all I could find was some leftover dialogue for Rikke. --Krusty 14:26, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Oh, I almost forgot – I decided that I couldn’t look at Legate Rikke for another second and launched her page. This basically means that an incomplete-tag was added to this section – so I hope that we, one day, can continue the investigation. I'll keep all my saves, so I can (more or less) test an awful lot of stuffif needed. ☺ --Krusty 00:22, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

GIF or PNG?[edit]

I know you had your bot upload png version of many files, but they were never converted. If you look at pages such as Oblivion:Summon, you can tell some gifs are still on the page. Was this intentional, or did you just never get around to adjusting it? elliot (talk) 04:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm...good question! I thought I'd converted everything, but maybe I just sent the bot in search of those that were used in the templates, or I forgot to search for those with "Image" instead of "File". I honestly don't remember. I've still got the code, so I'll go have another look at it and make any remaining changes. I know I had meant to Prod all those once I'd confirmed they were no longer used, and I clearly didn't get around to that, so obviously I need to have another look and then do that. Thanks! Robin Hoodtalk 06:52, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

A location/house query[edit]

I came across something slightly wierd. To start with the standard (or so I thought) for a location and it's house is found at Pelagia Farm, where both are on the same page. Then I found Salvius Farm and Salvius Farmhouse, which I suppose is OK beacause they have different names. Now I've found another, Solitude Sawmill wood mill and Solitude Sawmill house. What's really annoying is that the Skyrim style differs from the Oblivion style where house details seem to be on the owners page. Help! The Silencer has spokenTalk 17:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

My instinct would be to merge all the near-duplicates, but I'll ask Nephele to chime in on this as it may create issues when doing bot runs, or there may be other good reasons to leave them separate that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. Robin Hoodtalk 08:26, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
As far NepheleBot is concerned, each of those places is being treated as a single page. I have no idea why Solitude Sawmill was split into three pages, and at the moment that location is essentially being ignored by my bot, because it doesn't know that the main page has been turned into a disambig. Salvius Farm/Farmhouse is just another case where the location, cell, and/or map marker all have different names. The very first NepheleBot run chose the cell names, but since then the bot has chosen the map marker name. Most other cases like that have subsequently been cleaned up, but I wasn't aware of Salvius Farm being a case until now.
In terms of my personal opinion, I think they should be combined into a single page. If we're using a single page to document the interior and exterior of a dungeon, then I don't see why we should do something different for houses. Dungeons are far more complex than houses, so if we can manage putting all of a dungeon's content onto a single page, then I think we can easily fit all of a house's exterior and interior information onto a single page. --NepheleTalk 16:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks both. I've gone ahead and modified the pages, I had an idea it might go like this but couldn't find any examples. The Silencer has spokenTalk 18:56, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Sorry about the late response, but I disagree. Salvius Farm and Salvius Farmhouse are two different types of locations, and should be split up – that one’s even easy because of the different names. As for Solitude Sawmill - it’s a sawmill with a map marker, and, at the location, is a house with the same name. We have separate pages for all other houses, so why should this one be an exception? I created the sawmill disambig back then, and it should definitely remain. Later on, that house will be described in even the smallest of details and then we will have to revert it all back again. It can’t really be compared to dungeons – it’s an entirely different affair and will be treated differently. If we make this choice, we might as well include the two houses (this and this) with the main Anga's Mill page? Let's be consistent. --Krusty 13:35, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Hmm, after wandering Skyrim for an hour, I realize that I may have been wrong about all these locations – the ones with only one house. This is particularly evident with farms and stables, and brings up one important question. How many houses are needed to justify separate pages for interiors? More than one? A visit to Salvius Farmhouse suggests an interior description the size of this one, while Katla's Farm will be the size of this one - assumed we take some kind of OB route sooner or later. Basically, if we keep it at one, then I’m okay. --Krusty 15:13, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Salvius Farm and Farmhouse are not two different places -- it's just a place with both an interior and exterior section. Hundreds of dungeons have both interior and exterior sections, and we always describe them both on a single page. Yes, dungeons and houses will be treated slightly differently. But the fact remains that they both describe places and that our dungeon pages are going to be much much larger than our house pages -- because dungeons have more elaborate walkthroughs, have more treasure and enemies, and because dungeons frequently have multiple interior zones. We even have dungeons with multiple exterior buildings (e.g., Mzulft). If we can fit all of the information about a dungeon onto a single page, I think we can easily handle the description of a one-room house interior, even when covered in excessive detail, on the same page as the description of that house's exterior.
The fact that the farm and the farmhouse have different names is nothing more than Bethesda error/inconsistency. There are dozens of cases where the three types of game records describing a single place (the LCTN, REFR, and CELL records) have different names, and we don't use that as a reason to artificially split the information into multiple pages. We just create a redirect for the alternate names.
If you look through the long list of locations at Skyrim:Settlements, Salvius Farm and Solitude Sawmill were the exceptions on that list. In the two dozen other cases, we simply have one page for both the house/shack and the surrounding farm/mill/exterior -- so consistency says that we should just have a single page in all cases. Furthermore, for houses in towns we also describe both the interior and exterior of the house on the same page -- for example Honeyside's garden and back porch are described on the same page as the house's interior.
I also think that all of Anga's Mill should be on a single page -- which is in fact exactly how I did set the pages up last December [1][2]. (And in fact, the main Anga's Mill page still implicitly covers the two interior areas, because it says the page covers 2 zones (which always means 2 interior zones), and lists the location codes for both of the interiors). We just need to have explicit sections on the page to cover each area -- i.e., "==Exterior==", "==Anga's Mill Common House==", and "==Aeri's House==". Each section then contains an image, a map (eventually), a one paragraph description, and a list of notable items. Each of those sections will be much shorter than, for example, the sections describing each zone of Skyrim:Saarthal.
It's straightforward, less confusing for readers than the multi-page arrangement, and will never result in an overly-long article. --NepheleTalk 15:20, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

() Sorry about the edit conflict – seems like we’re almost on the same page anyway, although I partly disagree about Anga's Mill – not only because I can predict how long the page will be, but also because it raises the question once again – how many interiors are needed to justify separate pages? Looking at Shor's Stone (for a quick example) gives us three interiors, but on separate pages – Darkwater Crossing gives us two interiors, once again on separate pages. Is that because they are considered towns/settlements, or because the pages are stil work-in-progress? --Krusty 16:02, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Krusty: with the Oblivion links, I'm assuming you're just referring to the one paragraph on each of those pages that describes the person's house? One paragraph is roughly the amount of description that I'd expect to see for each house's interior -- but not the many other paragraphs on the OB pages that specifically describe the NPC.
When it comes to settlements that have two or three buildings, it's probably more of a judgement call, and I can accept going either way (one page for everything, or separate pages for exterior and each interior). One other case that comes to my mind is Katla's Farm/Solitude Stables.
In my mind, the question becomes what are players most likely to expect? Are players most likely to see the place as a single place that happens to contain two buildings, or are they more likely to see it as a small town? My in-game experience with Katla's Farm is that I found having separate pages for the farm and the stables confusing. It looked to me like just one place, so it wasn't obvious why the main Katla's Farm page didn't even mention Geimund and Horm. The contents of the current pages also suggests that other readers are having the same problem -- notes about the horses are on Katla's Farm and its talk page; Diplomatic Immunity is listed on both pages (and it's not clear which place is more appropriate for the quest -- presumably you're there because the carriage comes from the stables, but the quest marker is closer to the farm than the stables). It may mean that it needs to be either one page or three separate pages -- splitting Katla's Farm into a "settlement"-type page (with an overview of both the farm and stables, including a list of everyone who lives in both buildings), and a "house"-type page, describing just the one building's interior. I think one page is less confusing than three separate pages -- but either would be better than two pages.
Saying that "it feels like one place" is obviously subjective, but I think it is in some ways more relevant than trying to come up with objective criteria, because the goal is to put the information on the page where readers are expecting to find it. Of the examples you list, both Darkwater Crossing and Shor's Stone "feel" like multiple places -- whether it's because of how tightly the buildings are clustered, or the fact that they include a mine. It also helps that there are separate pages for the settlement and for each interior, instead of getting into the Katla's Farm confusion. --NepheleTalk 16:17, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
Just to cover publicly what I said in e-mail, and add a little more, I tend to think of it not so much in terms of number or size of interiors and exteriors, but rather, what the purpose of the various buildings is. Buildings that have no named residents and no quests leading there can probably be grouped with others in the immediate vicinity if there are any. So as we've already pretty much concluded, I'd say the single-building sawmills should be all on one page.
Others, like Anga's Mill and Dragon Bridge Lumber Camp kind of throw a wrench in the works, though. I haven't visited either yet, at least not that I can recall, but my initial inclination from what I'm seeing on their pages would be to split them in some fashion, since there are multiple buildings in the area with multiple purposes. I'd say treat Anga's Mill like it was a settlement, with one page for the settlement and one for each building. Dragon Bridge Lumber Camp seems to me like it should be treated the same as the Riverwood Mill, which we currently don't even mention in the Wood Mills list (but probably should, I think). I'll try to visit both locations tonight, and if anything changes my opinion, I'll post again. Robin Hoodtalk 23:03, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
If they are part of the same complex (Honningbrew Meadery) then one page, but if they have 'different purposes' (owner's residence and worker's residence (Anga's Mill)) then split up. Dragon bridge lumber camp seems the same as Riverwood's. It is subjective but I think most people recognise the same differences. The Silencer has spokenTalk 23:25, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Goes to show how much I remember...I'd actually visited both locations in my current game. If I'd actually looked at where Anga's Mill was zoomed out a bit, I would've known that one, at least. In any event, what I said earlier stands, having now visited both of them. I could go either way on Anga's Mill, especially if we get no more descriptions than what's there now, but at least from a theoretical standpoint, I'd vote for separate pages. Dragon Bridge should clearly be separate pages, but I'm still wondering why we don't have Riverwood's mill in our list, or Ivarstead's, just to name two that come to mind off-hand. Robin Hoodtalk 05:06, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, there’s some inconsistencies and missing places on Skyrim:Settlements. At first glance, I thought houses like Cowflop Farmhouse and Lemkil's Farmhouse were part of the Rorikstead settelement, but then again, I’m unsure. Obviously, a lot of mills are missing too – and I think it’s a matter of adding/removing oddities as we go along? --Krusty 13:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I think right now, the mills are intended to be those that're standalone mills, but that gets a bit confusing, since there's no clear delineation of what makes a standalone mill. I've never really seen much need to chop wood, personally, but we should probably include all mills in the list for those who decide to for whatever reason. I'll have a look at the CK and see if there's an easy way to identify them all...I'm thinking I might be able to just look for the water wheel or something like that. Robin Hoodtalk 20:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Mass Image Upload[edit]

Can you take a look at this discussion? Thanks. elliot (talk) 20:29, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Radiant Leveled NPCs[edit]

I noticed your edit to SR:Lieutenant Salvarus, and was wondering whether you had any feedback for this discussion. NepheleBot has basically been on hold waiting to fix all of the radiant-leveled NPCs, but I haven't gotten back to making a decision about how to fill in the infoboxes. --NepheleTalk 16:23, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, on second thought, I've started the bot on doing them all, using the "Radiant (1-23)" format. Not that I wouldn't still welcome feedback on how to do it, and it would be easy to redo the bot run if something else turns out to be preferable. But I figured anything is better than what's there right now, so I might as well get an initial pass done sooner rather than later. --NepheleTalk 16:57, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
As you may have seen by now, I actually provided feedback while you were probably typing this message. :) Robin Hoodtalk 17:08, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Linked Image Conundrum![edit]

Hey RH, sorry to bug you, but File:SR-Quests-knotwork-dragonborn.svg has been marked for deletion and is also marked "do not delete." I figured I could ask you because your bot prodded it ;). So um...can I zap it or not? eshetalk 13:56, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Elliot prodded it; the bot marked it to be kept because there was a link to it from the PNG version. I've removed that link and the notice, and also altered your previous message, so there are no remaining links to the file and it can now be deleted. Robin Hoodtalk 15:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Alright, cool. I've somehow stayed totally out of the loop on the linked image thing, so I didn't want to go deleting without checking first ;). Thanks! eshetalk 15:37, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
What's going on with the linked images is that if the image is never actually displayed on the site (not counting it's own page, of course), nothing shows up in the links at the bottom of the image's page and the image is listed at Special:UnusedImages. However, in many cases, images are linked to but not displayed, often in the case of maps or images that users are talking about but don't actually include in their post, etc. Those links do show up in "What Links Here". So all the bot is doing is going through "What Links Here" and comparing it to the links at the bottom of the image page. If it finds discrepancies, it notes them and in most cases, adds {{Linked image}}. If the image is only linked to from a user page, it simply notes it and lets us decide if it needs prodded or not. I'll probably also add talk page-only detection later as well. Robin Hoodtalk 15:45, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

What Goes Where?[edit]

Hey mentor, (I know, I didn't ask). Around the whole Forbidden Legend/Under Saarthal discussions, there was input from people about what should/shouldn't be on place vs. quest pages, etc. I remember seeing that someone set up a couple of pages for a continued discussion. I lost track of that and I'm wondering what, if anything, came out in terms of either actual policy or any seeming consensus. Can you point me where to look, by chance? --JRTalk E-mail 03:38, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

The extremely long discussion can be found here, with the 'wrapping up' section of that discussion here. General guidelines for layout/organization of articles that describe quests can be found at the page on Quest Layout, and more at the related discussion here. For the respective Place pages, see Place Layout and the related discussion. Hope you don't mind me jumping in here, RH! ABCface 04:01, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I believe the last official wrap-up was this. The gist of it is that walkthroughs should go in both places, but with content geared towards whether it's the quest or place page. In other words, don't put too many major spoilers on the place page, and don't put needless minor details on the quest page. Things like puzzle solutions and such should go on both, provided you'll encounter the puzzle on the quest and/or in the place. Robin Hoodtalk 04:06, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, both. The "gist" sounds reasonable to me. As appealing as "hard" guidelines can seem to be, I think they're hard to draw, some variety can be good, and we generally end up with useful pages through the beautiful collaborative spirit we all enjoy together. I'll look all of that stuff over. I saw a lot of good points, but I know I saw only part of the input. --JRTalk E-mail 04:23, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Aventus Arentino[edit]

Hey RH70! For the past hour I have tried to come up with a reasonable explanation as to why Aventus Aretino never makes it to Honorhall Orhpanage upon completion of Innocence Lost. Seems like that travel package is somewhat wrong, but I can’t figure it out. Can you take a quick look and see if you can come up with a good explanation? ☺ --Krusty 12:01, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

I think it's because "Activity Value" is set to 0 and nothing in the "Activity Formid". With nothing here the package has nothing to work on and cannot activate. The Silencer has spokenTalk 13:31, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
The problem is that the conditions on the Honorhall package require that he already be in Honorhall Orphanage in order for it to activate, so he never actually travels there. When I changed it to just check that the Innocence Lost had been completed, he stayed in the house until seven in the morning, which is when that package kicks in, then took off for the orphanage. (Probably not the way it should be done, but hey, it works well enough.) Robin Hoodtalk 18:42, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Another Random Question[edit]

When viewing patrol logs, is there a way to see only the manually-patrolled entries? Another of those questions that's not really important, but I'm just curious about... :) ABCface 05:13, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

No, unfortunately, there isn't, or at least not that I'm aware of. Robin Hoodtalk 05:16, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing it somewhere. Thanks! ABCface 05:20, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Wayfinder![edit]

Hey RH! When you have a minute, can you take a look here? I have based the statements on one of our old conversations, especially the one where all samples spawn when you enter Dawnstar. Still, I’m unsure - so if you can determine when the salts spawns – and when they disappear (I have now tested four of the locations after completing the quest, and no salts) – I would be a very happy camper! Thanks in advance! --Krusty 14:10, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Looking at it again (I don't even remember when the first time was), it looks to me like only one sample of Fine-Cut Void Salts is created, and that's after you've talked to Captain Wayfinder (stage 10). The reason I thought it was when you enter Dawnstar is that the quest nominally becomes available only when you enter Dawnstar, but it doesn't actually do anything until you've spoken to the captain. Robin Hoodtalk 00:28, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Hmm, problem is, I have a save where I carry Fine-Cut Void Salts around – and I never even talked to Wayfinder and initiated the quest. That is why I started investigating the other idea. To be more specific, I received my ‘early’ sample of the salts from Brood Cavern. And funny thing is, when I start the quest (by talking to Wayfinder) I’m pointed back to Brood Cavern. Any ideas? --Krusty 05:23, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

A Chance Arrangement[edit]

Hey Rob, just a quick question about A Chance Arrangement. I've been looking through quest stages and at stage 200 I found this line: Game.GetPlayer().RemovePerk(pTG00PickpocketHelper). I looked up the perk and it appears to give you 30% more pickpocketing chance. However, I can't seem to find when it is activated (find text only returned TG00 and no other stage mentions it). There was a note in the previous version of the page mentioning that pickpocketing was always very easy, so the perk might well be active. Any chance you can help? :) --SerCenKing Talk 15:40, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

No worries, found the activating fragment of script using Neph's online tools. Sorry for bothering you! --SerCenKing Talk 16:02, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
While I'm at it, I figured I'd bother you about Tonilia and the Thieves Guild Caravan Fence Quest. Firstly, I can't figure out when exactly the quest is activated. The quest stages mention "Stage Three of the Guild" and I'm assuming that means when you become Guild Master. Secondly, I can't figure out the reward as it is only listed as "pReward". Cheers. --SerCenKing Talk 17:54, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
The pReward I can help you with right off the top of my head. The "p" designates it as a "property" of the code. Basically, a property is like choosing the colour of a car given the same make, model, etc. It's a way to re-use the same code but provide different results. I don't believe Neph has these listed in CS List as yet, but in the CK, you can see them by clicking on the appropriate script in the Scripts tab, then clicking "Properties". For TGFenceCaravan, the pReward property is set to TGRewardGold, which is a leveled amount of gold as follows:
Level Gold
1 50
6 100
11 200
16 300
21 400
27 500
32 600
37 700
42 800
The quest-start took a little more investigating, but it looks like it's started in the TGStatus pseudo-quest, at stage 30. I couldn't find what triggers that off-hand, but it should be at the same time that Arnskar shows up and starts selling stuff. If you can get more details on exactly when that is, I can probably trace it down a little more specifically. Robin Hoodtalk 19:53, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
The quest starts when 3 of the special city jobs have been completed. The Silencer has spokenTalk 20:03, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
You beat me to it. I'd just tracked that down myself with a more wide-ranging search. TGRShell is the controlling quest, and if you scroll down to TGStatusCheck, you'll see that each time you finish a special job, it activates the next stage in TGStatus. Robin Hoodtalk 20:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks a lot to both of you! I'll get right on it :) --SerCenKing Talk 22:15, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

The Secrets of Ragnvald[edit]

Hey RH70! I need a (hopefully) really quick favor – it’s about the book The Secrets of Ragnvald. I don’t think I’ve ever found it in the game, so if you could look up a few locations (one inside Ragnvald would be great!) I would be more than happy. No rush as always – and thanks in advance! --Krusty 23:44, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

You haven't found it because it doesn't exist anywhere in the game. Given the name, I'd guess you were right and it was intended to be found in Ragnvald itself or at least as part of the Ragnvald quest. Robin Hoodtalk 01:35, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Gah! I had a feeling something was wrong with that book. There goes my story for the quest page. :D Anyway, is this a case for the USP-people or is it just a page with an upcoming prod-tag? Oh, and thanks for looking it up. --Krusty 05:51, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Hard to say. I didn't see anything that looked like it wanted that book to be there, but it wouldn't take more than a minute or two to put a copy in, so I wouldn't be surprised if USP added it as simply having been missed. Robin Hoodtalk 06:00, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Dirge[edit]

Dirge in the Ragged Flagon has some dialogue for a successful intimidation when discussing his name. Can you check the paramaters to see what is needed for it to be activated. Mr Scryer and I have not been able to make it activate, despite high speech skills. The Silencer speaksTalk 20:02, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

The only conditions I see are that it be Dirge, and that you've never tried to discuss his name with him before. I don't see any reason for it not to appear as long as you've never spoken to him about it before. Robin Hoodtalk 01:49, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Cookie![edit]

Choco chip cookie.png
You have been given a cookie!

Your dedication and diligence to the wiki has not gone unnoticed. A user has seen the progress you've made, and has given you a cookie because of it. Good work! The user had the following to say:

Thank you for all your help on this suggestion and for implementing it at the speed of light! Holomay 07:49, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
Glad to help. That was actually a stupidly simple change for the bot, but it still did all the grunt-work so I'll give it the cookie. :) Robin Hoodtalk 16:13, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

An Enemy's Gratitude[edit]

Hey RH! Just a little task, as I’m very curious whether or not it is possible. On this page we could use a list of the exact opportunities – who hates who? How many NPCs are affected by this? I hope it is possible, but it’s definitely a CK thing, so I though I’d ask you. ☺ --Krusty 23:33, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Nephele checked somewhat into this. Here she put a list of who was in the group. The Silencer speaksTalk 23:43, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm probably not going to be able to get to this until at least Wednesday or Thursday. I'm doing a computer upgrade on Monday, so I'll be doing some prep-work for that tomorrow, then it's gonna be a couple of days afterwards before I've got everything re-installed and so forth and I'm sane enough to take on a larger project like this. Robin Hoodtalk 03:00, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Falk Firebeard[edit]

Hey RH! Hope that computer is up and running! Here's an easy, almost nostalgic, question: I'm trying to write a new article for Falk Firebeard, but his schedule is messed up - he never leaves the throne room, regardless of what I try - and I was so looking forward to that secret love affair of his. Anyway, the classic question is: Why will he not sleep or visit his lover? Thanks in advance - and no rush! --Krusty 23:47, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

HotnBOThered isn't up and running yet, but naturally, Skyrim and the CK were high on my priority list, so I can do investigations. It's such a pleasure — well, okay, maybe "much less of a chore" would be better — to use the CK on a decent machine. It looks like there's a schedule override in place until you do The Wolf Queen Awakened. After that, I think he should move. Robin Hoodtalk 17:17, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Hey RH! No such luck, I’m afraid. I have tried completing every quest I could think of (including Tending the Flames, as it changes the schedule for a lot of NPCs) and Falk just stands there near the throne, around the clock. It reminds me a bit of Legate Rikke (our unfinished business here), but it is still odd. Can you take one extra look in the CK, just to see if he owns any bed, or if anything else seems off? Thanks in advance! ☺ --Krusty 20:30, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Hmmm...this could take some in-game investigation as I see nothing in the CK that seems terribly likely. Just to cover all the bases, here's the entire list of quests he's involved in:
  • The Wolf Queen Awakened - There are a few references to him here, and they should cause him to stay in the Blue Palace until the quest is complete, as already mentioned above.
  • Main Quest - There are a few references to him in the CW storyline and it's conceivable some of them might force him to stay in the Blue Palace forever, but I don't think it's likely. I would also expect once the main story line is done, those would all shut down and he'd be able to leave again.
  • Tending the Flames - No AI changes here that I can see.
  • Delivery - As above, nothing likely to cause problems here at all. (Note, this is not the Delivery quest - see my note on that talk page.)
  • The Mind of Madness - Again, nothing notable here.
  • A bunch of dialogue pseudo-quests, none of which alter his AI at all.
In addition, I've checked for pathing, locked doors, etc., and everything there looks fine, so I can't see off-hand what's keeping him there. I'll let you know if I figure anything else out. Robin Hoodtalk 04:00, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Yep, it's truly odd. I have written some kind of bug description for now (merely describing what he was supposed to do), so I'll just slap on a vn-tag to the bugs template; hopefully we can figure out what is going on later on. --Krusty 09:27, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
I actually just went to Solitude for the first time with my new character, so now seems like a great time to test this. After I do the bot-work you asked for, I'll play around and let you know what I find. Robin Hoodtalk 15:31, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Skyrim:Drain Vitality[edit]

For some odd reason, the translation word in translation1 on the aforementioned page refuses to be loaded. I think this is a bug with #save/#load, so for now I just have the template manually override it. Oddly, only this page seems to be affected - none of the other shout pages have this problem. I figured I ought to mention it to you, since you seem to be the one handling this kind of stuff. • JATalk 20:27, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Unless I've misunderstood, it seems to be working fine for me. See User:RobinHood70/Het. What were you trying to do that gave you a problem? Robin Hoodtalk 22:54, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Sorry for not being clear. I was trying to type this up:
{{WordWall
|wordwall1=HET NOK KOPRaaN DO SVOLO<br>WO PIRaaN MULaaG Wah KriiN<br>DOVah NUS NI GaaN Wah<br>KRiiN POG<nowiki></nowiki>aaN
|translation1=Here lies (the) body of Svolo,<br>Who {{huh}} strength to {{huh}}<br>Dragon statue not stamina to<br>{{huh}} many
}}
The problem was, no matter what I did to either the {{WordWall}} or {{Shout Summary}} templates, the first translation word "stamina" (variable is called "transword1") refused to highlight. I had to add |transword1=stamina at the end to get it to highlight.
Also, a bug I found - the step in the code that highlights the shout word on the word wall (in this case, GaaN) is a bit overzealous and also highlights the "GaaN" in "POGaaN". Unfortunately, because #replace cannot search for a space and a string of text in the search term, there's no way of filtering out parts of words. As you can see, just putting a pair of <nowiki> tags in the middle of "POGaaN" did the trick. • JATalk 07:56, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
The "stamina" issue appears to have been resolved somehow or another, as it displays in blue in both my sandbox and on the page now. As far as the bug, your method is probably the simplest workaround. Another possibility is to switch to #rreplace (note the extra "r"), which would allow us to use a regular expression that includes whole-word matching. Robin Hoodtalk 20:36, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Cicero Dialogue[edit]

Hey RH! Here’s the stupid question for today! I seriously hate the huh-tags on Cicero’s new page, specifically here. I can’t figure out the conditions for his follower dialogue from cslist or my dialogue sheet – so I was wondering if it was easier from the CK? Thanks in advance! ☺ --Krusty 14:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I see your point. I'll do what I can to track those down. Most of them should be easy because in the CK, they're listed according to certain groups, like the first one is Combat, AssaultNC (which is when you attack someone but the person commenting doesn't feel the need to help either of you out...maybe NC = "not concerned"). Anyway, yeah, I'll get on those. Robin Hoodtalk 19:28, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! Looks like the page is complete! One last thing - do you have any idea on how to avoid the gigantic space caused by the image here - or maybe a way to center it better? --Krusty 23:41, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
How's that? Robin Hoodtalk 03:18, 5 July 2012 (UTC)


Template Help[edit]

I am having some trouble with a template that hopefully you can help me with. The factions on the {{NPC Data}} template are not showing up correctly when I add a rank. I had to remove the rank from Nevel Maluran and Sarns Maren to get them to show up on the Evos page, however this means they show up with no rank and do not get added to the correct category.

Name Gender Race Class Faction Level Health Magicka Alarm Fight
Nevel Maluran Male Dunmer Miner Indoril Kinsman(Kinsman) 5 82 86 0 30
Sarns Maren Male Dunmer Priest Tribunal Temple Adept(Adept) 17 107 124 100 30
Aldos Dreloth Male Dunmer Priest Tribunal Temple Adept(Adept) 7 65 96 100 30
Mjara Male Khajiit Guild Guide Mages Guild Apprentice(Apprentice) 17 96 154 100 30

I am fairly confident it is not just me doing it wrong, because when I used Aldos Dreloth on your talk page it shows up correctly ... sort of =/ ... the rank appears twice ... but when I do it in the Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt section it no longer works! Also if they have their own page like Mjara the factions show up, but they don’t use the factions altname! ... Hopefully this makes sence! — Kimi the Elf (talk | contribs) 22:23, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

As I understand the template, and this is actually the first time I'm taking a good look at it, you have to specify faction and factionRank separately as plain text (c.f., Broder Garil). It looks to me like it doesn't support using faction={{Faction}} nor does it support using an altname, though I believe adding an alternative name should be easy enough. Robin Hoodtalk 01:42, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Ah, so I was doing it wrong D:! Thanks for the help, how would I add the altname then? ^_^ — Kimi the Elf (talk | contribs) 02:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
In any other namespace, the way you wanted to do it was right, but Morrowind is handled differently. I'll look into this tomorrow, but I'm wondering if we might not be able to update the template so they all work the same. It'll depend on where all the faction data is used in Morrowind, and that's not the easiest thing in the world to track down. If you need to keep going before then, go right ahead, using the plain-text syntax for now. Robin Hoodtalk 03:50, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Does everything look okay now? Robin Hoodtalk 07:35, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok, they are using the altnames and showing the ranks which is awesome! However the categories are still not working to well. They are adding the location to the factions category and the NPC’s that use {{ Non-Relevant NPC }} don’t get their name added to the category at all, just their location which is not suppose to be added. — Kimi the Elf (talk | contribs) 21:23, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Can you give me a specific example for the locations issue, please? I'm not sure I'm understanding that correctly. The Non-Relevant NPC issue should be fixed now. Robin Hoodtalk 21:50, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

() Yeah sorry, im probably not explaining it well. Ok, so Halana Nethril is suppose to be in the Great House Indoril category, it even says she is if you look at her no redirect style page. However if you look in the category her name is not listed but Nethril Plantation the location she is in is listed. — Kimi the Elf (talk | contribs) 23:51, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm...I begin to see why Rpeh designed the template the way he did. This is quite a nuisance. I'll think about it for a bit and see if I can come up with anything. Robin Hoodtalk 03:13, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I've partly reverted to Rpeh's design, but with some of Lurlock's changes, and some minor tweaks of my own, so Faction templates still work fine. It'll take a bit for everything to catch up, so things might look a little ugly till then. Once a page looks okay visually, I believe the categories should also be correct, so let me know if you spot any issues after that point. Robin Hoodtalk 04:29, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Looks perfect, they all use the altnames and the cats all look correct. Thanks! — Kimi the Elf (talk | contribs) 19:56, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Welcoming Users[edit]

Hey Robin!I was just looking at the recent changes page and saw that four more people have made an account here.I was wondering if I could welcome them,or does that need to be done by a certain person?--Skyrimplayer 00:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

You are free to give a welcome message to any user; this isn't restricted to only a few people. If you click on the user's "contributions", at the bottom you will be able to click a link to add a premade welcome message to their talk page. However, there are very many users who create an account and never edit, or they end up spamming. Thus, it's a common practice to wait until the person has made at least one non-spam edit before welcoming them. Vely►t►e 00:40, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick response Vely!And yes I know about the spammers.I'm seeing them being blocked everywhere.--Skyrimplayer 00:47, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Alright then Vely!Garland has made a few non-spam edits so it's time welcome him.--Skyrimplayer 01:17, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Yep, feel free to welcome him. Vely►t►e 01:25, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Hey.Uh Vely would you mind getting a few other people to welcome the others because I'm worn out.--Skyrimplayer 01:52, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Vely!Quick I found a spammer!What should I do?Her name is KellyM.Oh wait.Never mind,I just checked she was stopped.That'll teach those spammers to mess with editors.--Skyrimplayer 01:55, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Hey, just so you know, there's a very easy and quick way to welcome users, and post other standardized messages. Check out this page for info. :) -ABCface 02:01, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Yeah.I kind of just discovered that.(Slaps self in face).Thanks for the advice though!--Skyrimplayer 02:03, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

() Additionally, you can click on a user's "contributions" link, then scroll down to the bottom of the page. There should be a light blue box at the bottom with some text in it and a button that says "Welcome editor". Click the button, add a header/title, and click "submit". You can test it out on my page or your own, if you'd like. Vely►t►e 02:04, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

So glad I could help! ;) Robin Hoodtalk 05:44, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks[edit]

For correcting me Re: leveling. So how do you train 'manually'????? — Unsigned comment by Sniffles (talkcontribs) at 20:35 on July 28, 2012

By "training manually", I am fairly certain that RH70 meant raising one's skill without seeing trainers. There are a number of people who never use trainers or do not rely on them. Typically we do not add advice to articles if it is style-specific, as seeing trainers frequently would be. Vely►t►e 01:30, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
That's exactly what I meant. I couldn't figure out a better way of summarizing it. In Skyrim, you'll get the exact same effect on your leveling whether you go see a trainer to raise 5 levels in, say, Illusion, or if you sit there repeatedly casting Muffle on yourself until you've gone up those same 5 levels. And because there are no Attributes, like there were in Oblivion, it makes no difference to your ultimate level (well, other than how easy the game is) if you raise a few skills to 100, or whether you raise them all evenly. (Although if you want to use trainers, the latter method is almost certainly going to be a better choice.) Either way, you'll still top out at level 81, assuming you play the game long enough. Robin Hoodtalk 02:25, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Please forgive my wallowing in confusion here. Let's use my character as an example. I took her to (potential) level 24 without training then leveled up. Could I have trained as well as I manually (naturally seems to fit better) gained those levels, or did I miss out on 24x5=120 slots? Sniffles 05:49, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
The only thing training does is speed up your skill gains. So if you're level 24 and you've never trained before, yes you've lost the opportunity to train 120 times, but you can still max out all your skills naturally. In terms of your character's development (max skills, max level, etc.), there's nothing lost by not training. Robin Hoodtalk 06:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Gotcha! Thanks much! Oblivion, pardon my saying it, seems lame in comparison in many ways. Excuse me but my brain is fried ATM. I just got chased by a slaughterfish all the way up the road to Solitude. What a game! Even the glitches are often nicely surreal and workable! OH!! By the way, using the search box for Folgunthur doesn't work. Sniffles 10:08, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
I just tried it and it worked fine for me. I'd guess that either it was a one-off problem or maybe you were looking at a page in a different namespace, so it went looking for Folgunthur in that namespace. Or you just made a typo. Oh and yes, Oblivion's levelling sucked. A very large number of PC users, myself included, downloaded mods that changed the levelling system and never looked back. Robin Hoodtalk 19:50, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Nope. Sometimes the search works for a number of words, sometimes it doesn't. Could it be some oddness in my browser? Sniffles 04:58, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

() I'm not sure what to think there. Browser oddities are possible, but highly unlikely. If you keep noticing the problem, try asking in the Community Portal and see if you can find anybody who may have run into the problem before. Robin Hoodtalk 05:00, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

One More Question[edit]

Hey RH! Thanks for looking into the Yngol’s Barrow quest – or whatever we should call it. I think it belongs on the pages regardless of missing quest stages (wouldn’t be the first time we included non-journal quests) and it is obviously a bug, so I’ll keep going and treat it like a normal quest. However, one piece of information would be really interesting to add: When exactly was the two missing objectives supposed to be added? If we can solve that one, I’ll send this directly to Kivan so it can be fixed. ☺ --Krusty 09:13, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Make that two questions: I'm incredibly puzzled that there is no enemies in the entire dungeon, except for the boss at the end. Did they even complete the design of this place? :D --Krusty 10:30, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Okay, the short answer is that the "Explore Yngol's Barrow" would've appeared at Stage 50, and "Escape Yngol's Barrow" looks like it would have completed at Stage 100.
The problem is, I see nothing off-hand that actually displays "Escape" in the first place, nor do I see anything that advances the quest stages. As for there being no enemies in the entire dungeon, I see several in the CK, but they're disabled at the start, and I see nothing that enables them. In my searches, I also found where the quest was supposed to be enabled, but that's also been disabled, so I strongly suspect that for whatever reason, this quest was deliberately disabled, either because it was incomplete or because it was buggy.
Also, just based on what I found (so my understanding may be incomplete), it looks like what the quest was supposed to be was to enter Yngol's Barrow while it was empty, and then when you found the boss, the dungeon would "come to life" and you'd have to fight your way back out. I'll check it out in my game later and see if any parts of the quest actually kick in, but I suspect not from what I'm seeing. Robin Hoodtalk 19:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
All things considered, I think you’re right about this quest. I just ran through it again and there are several handles (and even a strange inactive button in the boss chamber) that seems like they were intended for ‘something else’, like an escape route. Add the 11 blue orbs flying around (some of them spawned from sarcophaguses), two copies of the same claw, and all the unused holes in the walls (traps, perhaps), and we have a totally incomplete quest where they decided to skip everything and just make an easy escape route. Also, when the Shade dies, it sends some kind of ray of light to an unknown location (same ray of light that usually revives draugr). Additional observations on this strange place can be found here. I have yet to trigger the Dungeon Delving quest with Yngol Barrow as the target (damn radiant system), but it would be interesting if the place is different under these circumstances. I look forward to your investigation - hopefully you can make some sense from the CK as to what this place was intended to be. --Krusty 22:59, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
I just double-checked, and the quest does advance silently—looking again, I apparently just skimmed the code too quickly last night and read wrong. Once I knew some of the things to look for (taking the helm, exiting the dungeon), I was able to find those quest advances. Still missing a couple of stages, but I don't really think we're going to find anything useful, even if I do locate those. I did find where the monsters were supposed to be activated, but the code was clearly disabled (no skimming this time! <g>). So at this point, I think our suspicions are correct, and even if it's functional behind the scenes, it's probably an incomplete quest. I don't remember noticing a ray of light when the shade died, but I'll re-load an older save and give it another shot tomorrow. Lastly, I don't believe Dungeon Delving would change the dungeon in any way other than adding the helm to the boss chest, but it's really easy to miss stuff with how complex quests are now. Robin Hoodtalk 06:02, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for looking into it. Tricky one, so I decided to just launch the quest page. The quest is non-existent and incomplete, so I added the "This quest is not part of your journal" note to the quick walkthrough with a bit more elaboration in the bugs section. Probably the best we can do, unless you can somehow see that all the orbs (12 in total) matches the amount of draugr that should wake up when you reach stage 100? --Krusty 16:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
If they were going for that sort of linking, I never saw any kind of coding for it (which could either mean it's not there or I just never came across it). About the only coding I found that was orb-related was if there are less than four following you, it looked like maybe the boss wouldn't activate or something. It was a little unclear. Given the current setup, though, I can't imagine making it to the boss without collecting a whole lot more than four orbs, so I'm not sure what the original intent of that was. Robin Hoodtalk 19:49, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

The Carvains[edit]

Whoah, I almost forgot the stupid question for today! This should be an easy one, though. It’s about Plautius Carvain and his wife Salonia Carvain. Looking through cslist, it seems like both of them exist in two different versions – so basically, the both need two NPC summaries? Also, where do they spawn? And when? The pages claim that the second versions spawn after killing a dragon on Mount Anthor, but that sounds unlikely to me, as they are related to the DB quest Bound Until Death. I have saves for both versions, and it would be fun to figure this one out. --Krusty 00:08, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Right off the bat, I can tell you that they're related to two World Event quests, "On the way to the Wedding" (WEDL03) and "Lost after the Wedding" (WEDL04). It looks to me like they're specifically created for those quests (which would be common for World Events) and don't exist outside that. The wedding they're on their way to is Vittoria Vici's, but it's a bit confusing, since they say they're on their way to Solitude, where Vittoria lives and where the wedding itself is, but their AI packages have them going to the Temple of Talos in Windhelm, then back to their starting point. (Maybe they're just perpetually lost and never supposed to actually make it to the wedding? It'd be interesting to follow them and see if they go exactly where I think they do. Unfortunately, I have nothing at all near Bound Until Death right now.) Oh and not surprisingly, in order to trigger this part of the quest, you must not yet have completed Bound Until Death.
After the wedding, if you run into them, they'll wander mistakenly in the wrong direction, backtrack, then make their way to the Riverwood Trader and finally back to their starting point. I suspect in either case, they'll just disappear once they return to their starting point.
Lastly, they're both road events, so the trigger (which is where they'll be created) can be just about anywhere that's on a road...I think there's about 100 possible locations in all. Probably the fact that they spawned for someone after killing a dragon on Mount Anthor was sheer coincidence...they were just on a road. Robin Hoodtalk 02:36, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I have a nifty spot I use for random encounters (the road near Gjukar's Monument), so I have saves for both versions of the Carvains. From their dialogue, it is clear that they're supposed to miss the wedding completely, but I'll try a bit of the good old following just to see if they actually go to the wrong chapel in Windhelm. As for the different versions - the REF ID's on the pages are not exactly 'trustworthy' - and from cslist, it seems like they spawn in two different versions? In any case, I'll see if I can create some NPC pages. --Krusty 07:18, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Hmm, from Gjukar’s Monument, they actually walked towards Solitude – and right before the path leading up to the city gate, they took the wrong path and headed east. After a while, they all started running – and then they went into the water and disappeared. Something tells me the ‘random encounters’ really is random, even in their behavior. Anyway, Solitude is a long way from Windhelm. Can you point me to a 'random encounter spawning point' a bit closer to Windhelm? --Krusty 18:13, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
There's one at these coordinates, just north of Steamcrag Camp. The trigger area goes from the bend in the road south to almost the tip of the pool near the lake. Robin Hoodtalk 18:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I couldn't spawn them your suggested marker (I practically met everyone else though), so I gave up and slapped a big vn-tag on Plautis' page. One final question about them - all four reincarnations of the Carvain's has a weird WECarvainDeathScript attached. What is up with that? --Krusty 23:14, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I'll try to force them to spawn on my end maybe tonight or tomorrow. It's not as easy as with regular quests, since you have to force it to start with certain information about where you are, etc. I don't know if I can do that from the console...might have to create a "mod" that deletes every other road quest but those two. Anyway, as for the WECarvainDeathScript, all it does is set a flag so that the quest won't launch unless they're both alive. Robin Hoodtalk 23:32, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

() You may not be the only one who can't trigger the pre-marriage quest. Even forcibly triggering it via the console, it's jumping from Stage 0 to 255 (shutdown) every time for me without anybody ever actually appearing. I'm still trying to figure out of that's a bug or some non-obvious condition I haven't fulfilled. Robin Hoodtalk 01:55, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

So, I happened upon the Carvains tonight and decided to follow them. Sure enough, just as you said, they headed off east once they got close to Solitude. Once we got underneath Solitude, the bodyguard headed off towards the water, and the Carvains went into "catch up" mode and started running off away from the bodyguard (I'm guessing they couldn't see a path to him for whatever reason). When I reloaded, they stayed on the road the second time around and ended up at a point just south of the Dainty Sload...a point I recognized well! I've followed other NPCs there—I think there's some kind of pathing bug, or maybe even an engine bug, and that's where they end up heading to when they get lost. Reloading a third time and teleporting myself and the Carvain party to Windhelm Stables, the bodyguard made a beeline for the Windhelm main gates, but then they disappeared beyond the gates. Trying it yet again and teleporting just inside the Windhelm gates, sure enough, they headed straight for the Temple of Talos. So I think that's where they want to go, they just have some serious issues actually getting there. It may be more reliable if they spawn closer to Windhelm, but like you, I was just outside Solitude (on my way back from Wolfskull Cave) when they spawned. Robin Hoodtalk 05:36, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Details on reward "Leveled Gold"[edit]

Hi RH! I just want to ask when the reward of the quest is "Leveled Gold", is it necessary to add the table of leveled gold list (Example: 1-9 get 400, 10-19 get 800.....) ? Dickson916 15:31, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

That's usually the preference, as long as you know what the table should be. If you haven't already discovered it, there's a template to make most of the gold rewards easier. You can see how to use that template here. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. There are times when the reward may not conform to the standard ones, though, and in those cases, it's really up to the editor to figure out what the best approach is. Robin Hoodtalk 17:23, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
I get it, thanks for answering! Dickson916 04:54, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Nonexistent quest stages?[edit]

I've been checking a couple of quests, and even after looking through the script, I find that some objectives aren't set to display at any quest stage. I've marked one in Proving Honor underneath the Journal Entries template, and I thought that was odd (I thought it was rare and so mentioned it, but perhaps it needs no mentioning), but in Blood on the Ice, it's telling me that the objectives on the page currently listed under stages 1 and 41 (at least those ones; I didn't look further) aren't ever displayed (there is no stage 41, just objective 41, but that's not my issue). On the talk page someone mentioned objective 1 being displayed, so I'm wondering if I'm misreading the information in the CK or if there's something else I'm missing. Vely►t►e 00:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

It's entirely possible that some objectives (or even all, such as in Yngol's BarrowCS List version) were never added or were removed before release. The problem with having objectives being scripted is that those scripts can come from anywhere...sometimes places that aren't immediately obvious or are counter-intuitive. For example, I found the one for Proving Honor in QF_C02_0006E804, which is actually part of the Brotherhood quest that takes place during Proving Honor, and has a quest ID of C02. Blood on the Ice is actually a bit easier...SetObjectiveDisplayed(1) is in QF_MS11_0001F7A3, which is one of the scripts associated with the quest. Quests in general are one of the hardest things to figure out reliably in Skyrim. It amazes me that the designers were able to keep track of it all themselves, much less us trying to figure it all out! Robin Hoodtalk 02:04, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Well, isn't that fun... What should be done in those cases for marking it on pages, and are most/all objectives not activated in the parent quest activated by an outside quest? Vely►t►e 02:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Honestly, your guess is as good as mine on both counts. When possible, I've been showing objectives as being activated at whatever stage they would occur, even if it's a very protracted stage with lots of subquests or whatever. In the end, though, we may need to figure out another approach entirely. I really don't know what the best way to handle it is. As far as where you find the code, my experience has been that it's generally in the main quest code for the shorter quests, but the longer, more complex ones tend to have things scattered over subquests, scripts on their NPCs or Quest Aliases, etc. In short, the bigger ones are a mess...and let's not even get started on the Civil War quests...ugh! Robin Hoodtalk 02:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Party Time![edit]

Hey RH! It’s been a long time since I asked a stupid question, so I figured I’d ask a pretty hard one. It’s about the table found here. It seems incomplete and the table itself a bit clumsy (apologies to the creator). I was wondering if you could cross-check the information? I’m particularly interested in why these guests appear – and what you must do to make them create the distraction for you. Looking at CSlist here it appears that there is a total of 9 guests (not including Razelan) that will help you out, if you meet certain requirements. Question is: When will they appear at the party? And what conditions must be met for them to help? I hope you can help with at least some of them. Best, --Krusty 23:09, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

It appears as though any jarls in faction GovExiled (any who have been displaced, probably) will not appear, but while all are marked as optional, not all non-exiled jarls appear. Additionally, I can't figure out backups--I know Grete is the backup bard if Illdi is dead, but I can't see it in the CK or script. Anyone who hates the player who can be a guest is disabled. Vely►t►e 00:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
It looks to me like the guaranteed attendees are Brelas, Elenwen, Malborn, and Razelan. Then there's a bard, which will normally be Illdi, but Grete if Illdi's dead. (Vely: that's found in QF_MQ201Party_00063B57.) Then there are 12 optional guests: Erikur, Maven, Ondolemar, Orthus, Proventus, Tullius, Vittoria, along with the Jarls Balgruuf, Elisif, Idgrod, Igmund, and Siddgeir. Vely covered the additional requirements for those 12—beyond those requirements, I've made a few tweaks to the table, but the conditions listed were mostly correct.
As far as the distraction itself goes, it looks like there are three possibilities: Razelan being drunk, someone being your friend, and something to do with an interaction between Brelas and Erikur. The dialogue you found is the friend list. Don't ask me what being a "friend" is...I always thought it was the same as having a relationship rank of 1 or better, but they're clearly separate conditions in the checks, and that condition isn't documented on the CK wiki. I'm not sure about the distraction conditions in your table...someone's added certain quests as preconditions, but I don't see any reference to those in the party quest itself. It could be that those are the only ways to make friends, though...that's really hard to check and be sure of. The conditions I see in the party quest are as follows:
Guest(s) Condition(s)
Persuasion
Elisif
Igmund
Siddgeir
Vittoria
Speechcraft 50 or better or you have an Amulet of Articulation
Ondolemar Considers you a friend and (Speechcraft 50 or better or you have an Amulet of Articulation).
Normal
Balgruuf
Idgrod
Maven
Orthus
Considers you a friend
Elisif
Igmund
Siddgeir
Considers you a friend, relationship rank 3 or better
Ondolemar You can ask if he considers you a friend and you have a relationship rank of 1 or better with him, but he will always decline
Vittoria You can ask her if she considers you a friend, but she'll always decline
Erikur (Solicits Brelas instead, not part of friendship distraction)
Proventus
Tullius
Can't be asked
This is what I see in the CK, but it could definitely use some verification. Don't ask me to make this user-friendly...I'm having a hard enough time even getting it out even this coherently right now. :) Robin Hoodtalk 04:04, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Hey RH! I was hoping you could cross-check something for me. I was told that the guest list was determined the moment you jump on the wagon from Solitude Stables (after talking to Delphine). However, I have jumped on that wagon 20 times now, and even tried completing Battle for Whiterun (for the Legion), but the guest list remains the same, with no exceptions. Can you take a look in the CK, just to check WHEN the guest list is determined? Thanks in advance! --Krusty (talk) 16:16, 4 September 2012 (EDT)
Technically speaking, it's triggered the moment you arrive after the wagon ride, but that's essentially the same thing. I'm at a loss to explain why the guest list doesn't change. Who all shows up and who doesn't? Obviously you're expecting Balgruuf to change, have you tried other conditions? Robin Hoodtalk 18:06, 4 September 2012 (EDT)
Ok, after a bit of digging, I see a bit clearer regarding the guest list. There is a bit of information about quest aliases to be found here. All the aliases for the guests in MQ201Party are marked optional. That means just, that the quest will leave that alias empty and start nontheless if it can't be filled - no randomness involved. The reason some guests won't appear seems to be that other quests reserved the alias already. For example Idgrod Ravencrone wont' come, while Thane of Hjaalmarch is running (tested that ingame). The quest in question reserves the alias of the quest giver (Idgrod), but MQ201Party hasn't set the "Allowed Reserved" flag for Idgrod's alias. --Alfwyn (talk) 09:54, 19 September 2012 (GMT)

Hi there again! :)[edit]

Hey there RobinHood, how have you been since I've been away from the wiki in over months (yes I know, it's blasphemy! haha) I hope you've been good yourself, and that the wiki hasn't been keeping you guys too busy, I still see the spammers are still around though :) Helenaannevalentine 19:41, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Hey Helena, good to see you back on the site! I'm on a partial break myself right now...you actually got lucky and posted this right while I was checking the site. Anyway, hope you're doing well too...and yes, the spammers are still around. ;) Robin Hoodtalk 19:43, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
Yeah I'm doing not too bad myself here, it's great to be back on doing editing on the wiki, but I might have to take another wiki-break as soon as my exams hit again :) Awwwh well, maybe one day we'll get on top of those spammers haha :) Helenaannevalentine 19:47, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
I know Dave's looking into it and trying a couple of things, so hopefully soon, the spammers will at least be minimized a bit. Robin Hoodtalk 20:09, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
That's good then, hopefully he's able to sort it out at least for a short while until a better solution may come along. I have been on the look out though, just in case I see any when I'm patrolling the Recent Changes page. Helenaannevalentine 20:15, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Arcwind Point comments[edit]

Hey just wanted to ask if you're sure that the Death Overlord everyone seems to be seeing at Arcwind Point is indeed leveled since I have went here twice now at extremely low levels (under level 10) to test this theory and no matter what it has been a Death Overlord with Ebony weapons. Which seems to indicate that if this one is indeed leveled that the location has a set low end level for the boss draugr. Is this possible? Lord EydvarTalk 07:26, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Most people probably would see a Death Overlord there, as it's marked as "Very Hard", which means that the creature selected will be significantly higher level than you if you're low level. I don't know the exact cutoff points, but using a level 1 character, I went there and got a Draugr Wight Lord; with a level 6 character, I got a Draugr Scourge Lord. So it is leveled, but Death Overlords appear at very low levels. Just to be on the safe side, though, can you tell me where exactly you're getting the Death Overlord? It's always possible I'm looking at the wrong place. The place I'm looking at is at the base of a large arch, just west of the tower. Robin Hoodtalk 18:59, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm talking about the sarcophagus behind in the back by the small graveyard leading to the final tower with the boss chest. Lord EydvarTalk 23:19, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Yup, that's the same place. I'd never clued in that that was a graveyard before, but looking at a top-down view, it's obvious. Robin Hoodtalk 03:16, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Removing "edit conflict"?[edit]

If there is an edit conflict, like our in the Patch talk now, and it does not alter anything in the discussion to remove it, can I just remove the ec marking then? —MortenOSlash 20:36, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

The {{ec}} marking only shows that the edit conflict happened. While it's not needed, having that would show that two users tried replying at the same time, so that it wouldn't look weird if Editor B and C both replied to A. Out of context, it would appear that C posted in reply to B. That's how I see the use of it as anyways. Make sense? And, btw, I am not RH70 :p Snowmane(talkemail) 20:44, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
What he said. Generally, you'd leave the edits in place; if the person who placed them there realizes that they're completely redundant to another response, it's up to them to decide if they want to remove it. In my case, my answer was a little more definitive, and I clarified that starting a new game was the only guarantee, so I chose to leave it. Robin Hoodtalk 20:50, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Good. I am slowly getting the grip of this. Thank you for helping me! :-D —MortenOSlash 21:08, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Error message while trying to upload images[edit]

Hello, RobinHood70, your friend Snowmane directed me to you hoping that you could answer my question about my uploading problem. Recently I uploaded some new images, but now when I try to upload again I get an error message that says "The file you uploaded seems to be empty. This might be due to a typo in the filename. Please check whether you really want to upload this file.". Is there a reason for that? I know my files are correctly named and are not empty and they are not large either. None of them are even 1MB. Could you help me out? Thank you. — KunvuloninKünvülänin 01:09, 8 September 2012 (EDT)

The only thing I can think of that might cause that is if the file is incorrectly formatted (or perhaps using some arcane format that not everything recognizes). Try saving the image in a different format or with a different program and see if that does anything. Failing that, you can send me the file by e-mail at robinhood70 at live dot ca and I'll try uploading it and see if I get the same error. Robin Hoodtalk 01:51, 8 September 2012 (EDT)
I will email you the images, there are only 4. I edited them again in Photoshop CS5, but they still won't upload. Hope you can get it to work. Thanks. — KunvuloninKünvülänin 02:02, 8 September 2012 (EDT)
I tried and failed as well. It looks like we're not the only ones having this issue, though. I'd suggest just waiting a couple of days and we'll see what happens. We just did an upgrade to the wiki, and we're still working out the kinks. Robin Hoodtalk 16:12, 8 September 2012 (EDT)
In case you hadn't noticed on the Administrator Noticeboard, the issue has now been fixed, so upload away! Robin Hoodtalk 17:27, 8 September 2012 (EDT)
Thanks for the update! I got my images up now. — KunvuloninKünvülänin 21:07, 8 September 2012 (EDT)

Thanks![edit]

Hey RH! Thanks for adding the Hearthfire paramaters to the Place Summary template-- and so quick too! It looks and works exactly the way I wanted... but after using it, something occurred to me which I hadn't thought of before. It would probably be best if we added the HF to the side of the links so that it's more obvious these are Hearthfire additions. Is it possible to add that template within the template? Or just add it with regular formatting into the template, if not? Sorry for the trouble! — ABCface 20:26, 9 September 2012 (EDT)

Done. Robin Hoodtalk 21:17, 9 September 2012 (EDT)
Awesome! Thanks so much! :D — ABCface 23:22, 9 September 2012 (EDT)

You have been summoned by the IRC![edit]

If you can, could you please pop in to the IRC? Alfwyn and I are already here, and we've got an admin to manipulate (Bwahahaha!), so we can finally change over the common.css. It would be nice if you were there, so that way if it blows up we have someone there that can fix it. • JAT 20:29, 14 September 2012 (GMT)

Abuse filter[edit]

I tried adding the abuse filter to the list of checks needed performing on the Template:Proposeddeletion and Template:Speedydeletion pages. As they are they link for one name users but only from their userpages. It doesn't work on talk pages, or main space pages where there is a space before the : in the link. Help please. Golden SilenceBreak the Silence 07:34, 16 September 2012 (GMT)

Archive Protection[edit]

There's a few pages of CP and AN archives needing protection. Thanks. Golden SilenceBreak the Silence 16:52, 16 September 2012 (GMT)

Okay, bot's on it. Robin Hoodtalk 18:11, 16 September 2012 (GMT)
Hmmm...very oddly, it's finding stuff it never has before. The changes it's making are appropriate, but I'm not sure why it's never made them before. My guess is that 1.19 is showing certain pages it didn't used to in its protection lists...I'll have to take a closer look. Robin Hoodtalk 18:23, 16 September 2012 (GMT)

Follower suggestion[edit]

I realize it's just frosting and may be too much trouble, but is it possible to set a quest marker on a follower? As in the usual, where the heck has s/he gotten off to now?? Especially with the numerous buggy dungeon exits it's easy to get into a confrontation only to discover the follower you are relying on has gone missing. By the way, thanks much for the numerous very helpful little tweaks and fixes you've done. I've come to, when encountering some bug or difficulty, checking the discussions to see if you have left some comment on it. Sniffles (talk) 03:50, 19 September 2012 (GMT)

I think you could do it as a mod, but I'm not aware of any console commands to do it or anything of that nature. Even as a mod, I'm not entirely sure if you'd be able to script it to flag only your current follower instead of all possible followers. I'm not familiar with anything that would let you do that, but I'm not a big-time modder by any stretch of the imagination. If you can't do it directly, a more creative approach like adding a quest for each possible follower might be necessary. (Blech!) You're right, though, it could be a handy utility. And thanks for the compliment. I'm not a big content creator or editor, so it's nice to hear that the little things get noticed too. :) Robin Hoodtalk 04:10, 19 September 2012 (GMT)

Beating the horse to death[edit]

In the No Stone Unturned page Vex is cited as saying: "She will further inform you that, although the stone is worthless on its own, if you can find the other 23, the collection would be worth a substantial sum." Does she in fact say something along those lines? I ask because once all are gathered they remain worthless, even after plonking them in the crown. Sniffles (talk) 10:46, 19 September 2012 (GMT)

Her specific wording is that they're not worth anything individually and that most people keep them as curiosities. She's not willing to trade them because they wouldn't turn a profit—no one wants them unless it's the full set. In the later parts of the dialogue, she implies that it's pretty much priceless to the Thieves Guild, but she says nothing about its value to anyone else that I can see. Robin Hoodtalk 18:08, 20 September 2012 (GMT)
So the wording on that page needs correcting, removing the 'substantial sum' part? Sniffles (talk) 00:02, 21 September 2012 (GMT)
Yeah, that's definitely a little misleading. The crown's worth is as a "paragon", to use the quest's wording, not monetary; I would see the collection of gems without the crown as being essentially the same. Robin Hoodtalk 19:13, 21 September 2012 (GMT)

Uthgerd the Unbroken[edit]

Could you please read the discussion page regarding her being hostile? I added an entry which explains the problem. I am guessing a broken script somewhere and I know you are a broken script genius. Sniffles (talk) 11:43, 19 September 2012 (GMT) I'm going to add to this. I suspect her hostility level is too high. Once the PC enters the room that script triggers. But why everyone ends up attacking the PC and ignoring her is just plain weird.Sniffles (talk) 11:48, 19 September 2012 (GMT)

I don't see anything obviously wrong. Her aggression level is set to "Aggressive", which is only the second of four settings. Most NPCs in the game are set to either "Unaggressive" or "Aggressive", so there's nothing unusual there. I also checked her faction memberships, and again, nothing jumps out at me. If it's related to which side you choose in the Civil War, as someone suggested, that could be a nightmare to track down. The Civil War is this sprawling mass of scripts and quests that could almost be mistaken for the entire game from the POV of the Creation Kit. :) I think we're going to have to wait for more information on when it does and doesn't occur. Robin Hoodtalk 18:31, 20 September 2012 (GMT)
Digging around a little more, the one thing I see that could...maybe account for it is the combination of her Aggression setting with her Combat Style setting, but if so, I'd expect Keeper Carcette to exhibit the same behaviour, and I see no reports on her page that she's becoming unexpectedly hostile. Robin Hoodtalk 18:40, 20 September 2012 (GMT)

So we have inadvertent AI! Bethseda creates life! How cool is that!!?!! On a more rational note, she doesn't trigger to combat until the PC comes a certain distance away from her, not just entering the room. This appears to the the same distance as the semi aggressive NPCs encountered in the wild that issue the command 'Don't come any closer'. Step closer and this script triggers the attack script. This is born out by the PC joining the Whiterun faction; talking to the Jarl and triggering the main quest. After that her hostility is lowered to normal. Sort of the crude scripting equivalent of doing a demographic survey. AHH! Comes the dawn! That explains why nobody in Whiterun intervenes when she chases the PC and why the Dragonsreach people attack the PC instead of her! Sniffles (talk) 23:58, 20 September 2012 (GMT)

Danica Pure-Spring[edit]

Hey RH – here is, as promised, a stupid question. More than one actually. First of all, the schedule(s) in this sandbox are written from in-game observations only. Why? Because I found out that the cslist is somewhat wrong here. In fact, the sleep package doesn’t work and she never visits the market (or the tree) between 3pm and 7pm. So I’m puzzled, and I think she’s very bugged. Can you look through her packages – and see if you can come up with some explanations, so we can get a proper bug note on there? Thanks in advance! --Krusty (talk) 22:03, 26 September 2012 (GMT)

It seems her sleep package is bugged twice over. As usual, the reason she doesn't sleep is because her bed is out of range. The sleep package has a distance of 500, where the bed is over 700 units away. The reason the next package doesn't kick in is because she's set to try to sleep 24 hours a day (must be nice). When I fixed those two issues, she went to the market at 3pm, as expected. When she got back at 7pm, she went to sleep right away, but I notice that her temple package is set to allow that. Not sure if that constitutes a bug in its own right or not. Robin Hoodtalk 20:56, 29 September 2012 (GMT)

Quick question[edit]

I saw you did this and I was wondering, I've seen other NPC articles with the gender listed on them, so is it wise if I go around and remove it if it's listed on some NPC articles or no? Just wondering -Helenaannevalentine(talk) 04:31, 28 September 2012 (GMT)

This was a topic of some discussion a while back (I think about 2009), though I can't find it currently found it. The decision was to remove all mentions of gender in the intro sentence unless there was a good reason for it (i.e., it's ambiguous, the sentence doesn't flow right without it, that sort of thing), since it's mentioned in the NPC stats and often sounds a little wordy. So yes, by all means, remove the gender from the lead sentence. Robin Hoodtalk 04:42, 28 September 2012 (GMT)
Okay, thanks for clearing that up :) -Helenaannevalentine(talk) 04:46, 28 September 2012 (GMT)

Whiterun damaged[edit]

Well, first it was Uthgerd and now other problems are cropping up in this city.

  • I did the Gidergreen quest, bringing a new sapling. However the old tree wasn't replaced and it is regrowing. The wrong script executed I guess.
  • Adrianne Avenicci of Warmaidens has never appeared. Can't find her anywhere.

So... how does one reset an entire city? — Unsigned comment by Sniffles (talkcontribs) at 09:43 on 25 September 2012

I'm afraid I don't know of any way of doing that. Robin Hoodtalk 18:30, 25 September 2012 (GMT)
Perhaps the console command resetinterior <locationid> might help? -Helenaannevalentine(talk) 18:36, 25 September 2012 (GMT)
Would WhiterunOrigin be the correct ID? Is this going to hurt and turn the screen bright purple? Sniffles (talk) 08:41, 26 September 2012 (GMT)
I believe that is the correct ID for Whiterun itself. I'm not entirely 100% familiar with console codes, but I do recommend saving your game perhaps before you use it, just in case anything does happen -Helenaannevalentine(talk) 18:15, 26 September 2012 (GMT)
Whiterun is divided into a number of sub-cells. WhiterunOrigin is, as you'd expect, the entrance to the city. The rest are: WhiterunMountainCell, WhiterunPlainsDistrict01, WhiterunPlainsDistrict02, WhiterunPLainsDistrict03 (note the capital "L"), WhiterunPlainsDistrict04, WhiterunSkyforge, WhiterunWindDistrict01, WhiterunWindDistrict02, WhiterunWindDistrict03. While I've heard of the resetinterior command, I have no experience with it, and I have no idea what it'll do to an exterior cell, or if it'll even work in one at all. You may just have to call this game fubar and either work around it or start a new game. Robin Hoodtalk 18:27, 26 September 2012 (GMT)
I do know that the Gildergreen glitch is a very common glitch (it affects my main save as well). The easiest fix is to select the outer tree and disable it. The Uthgerd glitch is very weird, but I too have gotten some strange, one-off AI bugs. Adrianne Avenicci may have either died and had her corpse fall through the terrain, or she glitched through the terrain and is subsequently trapped/dead. Have you ever Waited in the city? I once returned to Whiterun, overencumbered, and went straight into Warmaiden's to sell some loot. I exited and saw Adrianne in the distance, standing by a market stall. I decided to Wait for an hour, so that she would walk down the path to me, and she teleported to the correct x/z position, but was at the same height as she was at the top of the path, so she fell downwards about five feet. Had this happened the other way around, and she was buried 5 feet under the path, she may have glitched through. This may have been a one-off bug, but hey, if it happened once, it can happen again.
Also, this is probably a stupid question, but do you have any mods active? • JAT 21:55, 26 September 2012 (GMT)

() Only Dawnguard. None of those codes seem to work. Outdoor areas have some superseding controls/code attached? Have waited often, for shops to open. Have searched everywhere for Adrianne. I'll use TCL for another search. Looks like other things are now getting strange. Huge clouds of butterflies in some places - like 20 to 50. Far more bunnys than I've ever seen before. Aela's AI has failed. In about 10 fights she engaged in the fight only once. The rest of the time she just stands there and gets pummeled. What I am seeing is if the initial start of the game displays a predictable oddness like Uthgerd being berserk it would be best to restart. Sniffles (talk) 00:37, 27 September 2012 (GMT)

Well, it's definitely fubar, then. Personally, I'd keep playing, just to admire the quirkiness of a glitchy video game (I've done this with a few other games, and it's quite fun), but if you do, then definitely back up your saves. • JAT 02:55, 27 September 2012 (GMT)
I just met Skjor who died two days ago. He was walking around in a rock, the top half of his body visible. Couldn't talk to him but his afterlife looks... wrong.Sniffles (talk) 09:07, 27 September 2012 (GMT)
That definitely sounds wrong! I don't know what would be causing it, but sounds like you've got quite an interesting glitch on your hands! -Helenaannevalentine(talk) 18:22, 27 September 2012 (GMT)

Game damaged and then some. Continuing on with the same game. I had Aela as a follower for a while then dropped her. A little while later I had Lydia as a follower. Since I was in the neighborhood I did the marriage with Lydia. All went correctly. My char said the vows and Lydia walked towards the door. Upon turning around, Lydia had turned into Aela. I spoke to her and she gave me a companions quest. I haven't been able to find Lydia anywhere. Sniffles (talk) 11:11, 1 October 2012 (GMT)

my other west[edit]

Thanks :) CapnZapp (talk) 12:14, 4 October 2012 (GMT)

Keep clam and proofread?[edit]

Is it meant to be like that obvious, where I have every urge to change it to "Keep calm and proofread" ? haha :P -Helenaannevalentine(talk) 20:51, 4 October 2012 (GMT)

That's the joke. I didn't think it was worth importing an image, but there are several available on the net (e.g. [3]). Robin Hoodtalk 22:15, 4 October 2012 (GMT)

Beitild[edit]

Despite the rather numerous signs implying that Leigelf is the one who hires the Dark Brotherhood to kill her (quest dialogue, the general set-up, and his lack of grief about her death, at the least), you still receive a contract for her even if you kill him well before you even visit Windhelm, much less begin the Dark Brotherhood questline. (Specifically, if it matters, as I've been playing my character as a devout follower of most of the Daedra, I killed off everyone who works in the mine for profaning Namira's darkness, and then killed him with a sneak attack for owning it.)

Is something supposed to alter the quest in some way and fails to do so, or is it simply an oddity? I have a save of the same character prior to killing anyone there (and one before completing Namira's quest, which I had recently done, and kept Eola with me after, so she was there when all this was done, if the presence of a follower, or specifically her, would affect things), if that's necessary to test things out.--TheAlbinoOrc (talk) 09:59, 5 October 2012 (GMT)

There's no reference to Leigelf in the quest at all, so if they intended to have the quest fail if he's dead, there's no sign of it. If you want a "retcon", so to speak, you can always say he actually hired the DB before you killed him. Either that or it wasn't him who hired them, despite all the evidence. Robin Hoodtalk 20:43, 5 October 2012 (GMT)

Bot request - Ingredient icons[edit]

I have a minor, yet tedious task that seems like it'd be ideal for a bot. The files in Skyrim-Icons-Ing are inconsistently named - both internally and compared to the rest of the icons. Some use "SR ing [Item]" while others are "SR-ing-[Item]". Both should be replaced with "SR-icon-ing-[Item]" or perhaps "SR-icon-ingredient-[Item]". (If we're doing the latter, the category should also be renamed. I never liked that abbreviation there anyhow.) Of course, all pages using the images should be updated as well, so we don't have to keep the redirects floating around. Think you could set this up some time? Should be fairly straightforward, I think. TheRealLurlock (talk) 02:45, 6 October 2012 (GMT)

I'm working on it now. It's a moderately easy request, but I'm really going to town expanding the programming so that hopefully future bulk page moves will be fairly easy to do. I agree that "ingredient" is the way to go rather than just "ing", though it does make for a fairly long name. I think I'm done the coding now and just testing to make sure it works, so hopefully you'll see the bot actually working shortly. Since there will likely be leftovers in User space and such, I'm doing these all as normal moves (i.e., the redirect won't be suppressed), then the originals will get proposed for deletion. The bot should generate a list of "leftover" links to fix by-hand, but by proposing them for deletion, that gives us an extra level of protection, since the deleting Admin (which'll may well be you <g>) will also do their check before removing the redirect. Robin Hoodtalk 22:02, 6 October 2012 (GMT)
Okay, the bulk of the work is done. Unfortunately, I forgot to tell it it was allowed to check parameter names for unlinked image filenames, so it missed all those. I updated all the ingredients pages by-hand, since the bot's still chugging along trying to cope with content2 being down. There may still be some other pages that need changing, but I'm not gonna try and get everything until we're back up to working 100%. Your user pages were the main source of uncorrected links...they weren't changed because the bot won't edit user pages normally. If you're on before me and we're back up, feel free to do anything you see that's leftover...there's no point putting the bot on it with what little is left. If not, I should probably get to it tomorrow afternoon. Robin Hoodtalk 04:27, 7 October 2012 (GMT)
I just reviewed the old files and fixed anything that needed to be fixed. The only links remaining are the ones in your sandboxes, which I didn't fix because it looks like they're old pages that're just hanging around. Robin Hoodtalk 19:53, 7 October 2012 (GMT)
Yeah, I tend to keep my sandboxes around for historical reference. If it's not too much trouble and the bot's already set up for it, I wouldn't mind having it go through and fix those links, just to keep things clean and avoid them showing up as Wanted Files. If you have to do it by hand, though, don't bother. I actually have in mind a template for doing icons, where you could just say something like {{icon|i|Frost Salts}} and automatically get an icon appropriate to whatever game space the link is in. (The first field would be an abbreviation saying that it's an ingredient icon, you'd use 'a' for armor, 'c' for clothing, 'w' for weapon, etc.) That way if we ever move icons around again, it'd be a simple matter of changing one template rather than having to go through exhaustively on every page where they're used. I might try whipping up something - would probably involve sub-templates, so I might need help with some of the newer templating features. (I used to be pretty good at templates, but I haven't gotten the hang of all the new features.) TheRealLurlock (talk) 01:19, 9 October 2012 (GMT)
Because it was set up to load pages from the category then move them, it wasn't really "set up" to do further renames, but I threw together a quick hack job that should do the trick. It's running now. The only thing is, it might be slightly more aggressive about changing things than the original was. It seems unlikely there are too many other cases of "SR ing " (or with dashes), though, so I'm not too worried about it. :) Any that it misses or any extras it shouldn't have done, we can always do by-hand, but I don't think we'll have to. Robin Hoodtalk 02:04, 9 October 2012 (GMT)
Thanks. As you might have seen, I started setting up that icon template. It went pretty well, actually. I was going to add support for other games, but then I discovered that a.) the Morrowind icons are an absolute mess in terms of naming consistency, and b.) the Oblivion icons are mostly non-existent. Guess I've got a few more projects to work on... TheRealLurlock (talk) 02:06, 9 October 2012 (GMT)

Hey RH - quick question[edit]

I've done a weeks worth of testing now and made an awkward discovery. With Dawnguard installed it is possible that vampires will have attacked a location and killed some of the non essential NPCs. Some of these NPCs can make the game considerably easier. For example, at the very start of the game I entered Whiterun for the first time and Severio Pelagia, Adrianne Avenicci and Olava the Feeble had already been killed. So we have the potential for a number of Radiant quests as well as help for starting out characters that can become unavailable. Do you think this would merit a notation, Note, somewhere? More... darned flakey DSL here. Also, it appears the random vampires spawned by Dawnguard are considerably higher level than many townsfolk are able to deal with. On one test run I entered Whiterun for the first time and found 7 dead bodys strewn around town. Unfortunately I didn't record the names of them but a couple were the city militia. Sniffles (talk) 10:25, 8 October 2012 (GMT)

Just responding quickly, my instinct is that yes, we should mention this on the Dawnguard page or perhaps the World Interactions page. I suppose which one depends on how often it's a problem...if it's a big problem, the main DG page, otherwise, the WI page. Robin Hoodtalk 17:29, 8 October 2012 (GMT)
I can't find the info on random vampire attacks anywhere. I do know that if one takes advantage of circumstances during the escape from Helgen to level the character up, this is essentially sending a number of NPCs, especially in cities, to their doom when Dawnguard is installed. Sniffles (talk) 23:27, 9 October 2012 (GMT)

Style Guide: Numbers[edit]

Hey Mr. Hood: I want to propose adopting Wikipedia's style guide for numbers; and referencing it in the "numbers" section here. I would also choose just a couple more exceptions and details from Wikipedia (most critically perhaps: about consistency within an article). Do you have any thoughts? I'm willing to make a more detailed proposal, but wanted to see if you (or others) have info on history with this, ideas for or against actually linking to the Wikipedia page, and, if there's no reason why I shouldn't make a proposal or start a discussion, where is the best place? (Just make changes on the page? Make a proposal on its talk page? CP?) Thanksyew. --JR (talk) 03:10, 25 October 2012 (GMT)

By default, we use Wikipedia's rules, style, etc., whenever we don't have something of our own, so probably just linking to it from "Numbers" would be sufficient, with any differences from that noted. That said, I'd have to see what you have in mind to give any better feedback on that.
As far as how to go about it, even if the changes are large, if it doesn't represent a significant departure from what we're already doing, I'd just go ahead and make the change. That's what I did earlier today when I changed that page...just put into words what we were already pretty much doing anyway. If you think it's a bit more significant of a change than you're comfortable making without feedback, then go to its talk page, and if it's a major change, then CP would indeed be the place to bring it up. Robin Hoodtalk 03:19, 25 October 2012 (GMT)
Helpful. Thanks. No plans to depart from Wikipedia's style guidelines , so I'll take a stab at a little rewording and add a bit to the numbers part of the page. --JR (talk) 03:42, 25 October 2012 (GMT)

Deleted files on bot page[edit]

Hey RH, I just deleted two images that show up on User:HotnBOThered/Results (Derpyderp.png and Perry.jpg). I was going to remove the links from the page but was worried it might throw the bot off in some way, so I thought this way might be safer ;). Have a good one! eshetalk 14:00, 29 October 2012 (GMT)

No worries, that's only for reporting, the bot doesn't read from the list. It'll be gone next time I run the bot...I'll probably do that later today and then let it actually continue and do the moves. Robin Hoodtalk 15:40, 29 October 2012 (GMT)

Possessive 's[edit]

I saw your suggestion, somewhere, of policizing the appendence of 's to words that end in consonants (including s). I lean toward that style myself, especially when the result looks like the way the word is pronounced, but there is different guidance to this all over the place among grammar and style "authorities". Now, I notice that there's some in-game use of the alternative: "Methunes' Razor" is spelled as such all over the place in-game. Perhaps I've never seen a better overview of the topic than this. Will you reiterate your hard-line position on this critical issue before the election? :-o --JR (talk) 05:40, 5 November 2012 (GMT)

Actually, I've always done it like "Mehrunes' Razor" myself (in the sense of any possessive that already ends in s just gets an apostrophe). When I went to look it up, however, I found that while there was certainly some variation, the more prominent American ones leaned towards the "'s". I think even in the thread you cited, they were all recommending 's for the singular possessive, though I did note at least one that went based on pronunciation. Of course, in-game spelling trumps everything, so we have no issue when it comes to Mehrunes' Razor no matter what. :) Robin Hoodtalk 06:29, 5 November 2012 (GMT)
OK. I think I forgot about the singular vs. plural issue, since it's so common to see xxxs' and xxxz' used in all cases these days. I'll keep my eyes's open. --JR (talk) 06:43, 5 November 2012 (GMT)

trouble finding shalidors writings[edit]

ive been looking for these writings and it takes me to yngol barrow but thats about it,. its a gate which i cant open. what do i do ?? am i missing something ? please help lol — Unsigned comment by Beanz85 (talkcontribs) at 16:45 on 9 November 2012

You've got to solve the puzzle of Yngol's Barrow to open that gate. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 16:52, 9 November 2012 (GMT)

Hearthfire Stewards[edit]

Can you add a Steward parameter to the {{NPC Summary}} like the clay & stone ones in the place summary. I'd do it myself but my edits to templates haven't always been successful, and I'd like to be able to show my "face" here again. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:36, 16 November 2012 (GMT)

Done! Robin Hoodtalk 02:20, 16 November 2012 (GMT)

Unsigned Template[edit]

Hey there. I noticed you made a change to the {{Unsigned}} template recently and I have also noticed a few times recently that when IP addresses are entered using the template, it doesn't work (trying to take you to User:<IPaddress> instead of the Special:Contributions/<IPaddress>). Is the change you made related to this, or a funky coincidence that it popped up around the same time? I haven't had any issues using {{uns2}}, though I haven't tried {{uns}} or {{unsigned2}} (not sure they would be any different due to redirects?) — ABCface 03:48, 2 December 2012 (GMT)

Ummm...you do realize it's 2012, not 2011, right? :Þ Can you link me to somewhere where the template isn't working properly? I've looked at the code, and while I see a very minor optimization that could be made around the detection, I don't see anything wrong with it off-hand. Robin Hoodtalk 04:35, 2 December 2012 (GMT)
haha! Didn't even look at the year. Well I feel silly. Here's one of the times I noticed it, [4]. There were a couple others which had the issue recently as well, but I'm unsure of what pages they were on at this point. — ABCface 04:40, 2 December 2012 (GMT)
Jak's fix worked. Just checked the previous version of the page and it's all good now. Thanks, and sorry for not looking at the year of your edit! :P — ABCface 04:45, 2 December 2012 (GMT)
There's no reason that I can think of that that should have made any difference, but I'm glad to hear it's working, anyway. I'm wondering if it was a caching issue or something, and the change to the template just forced it to update. <shrugs> Robin Hoodtalk 05:13, 2 December 2012 (GMT)
Ah, well. If I notice anything weird again I'll be sure to poke one of you template people about it anyway. :P — ABCface 05:17, 2 December 2012 (GMT)

Dragonborn[edit]

Hello there. I see you're adding Dragonborn information from Creation Kit. May I ask how you've managed to do that? Have you extracted the xbox image? Roger (talk) 21:18, 9 December 2012 (GMT)

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. ;) Robin Hoodtalk 21:55, 9 December 2012 (GMT)
Right. Deaths aside, I've already uncovered your foul ways. Roger (talk) 00:26, 10 December 2012 (GMT)

Weird Reward?[edit]

Hey RH! I just noticed this edit. Can you see anything wrong with the reward in this case? --Krusty (talk) 11:58, 11 December 2012 (GMT)

It looks like we just had the wrong size of reward. I checked in the CK and it was marked as large, both in the original version of the game and in 1.8. Robin Hoodtalk 19:27, 11 December 2012 (GMT)

Template:DB replacement[edit]

I just noticed bot replacements like this. Was that just an oversight? I don't think we want that, it makes the code less readable and is inconsistent with the use of templates like {{DG}}. --Alfwyn (talk) 13:16, 11 December 2012 (GMT)

At the risk of sounding like the Aspie I am :), that's the way it's always been done (e.g., [5]). I believe the original thinking was to reduce the server load when there were potentially dozens or even hundreds of these on a page. Now, that said, I'm not sure to what extent it's a big deal at this point—it might be worth another discussion. I don't think the plain {{DB}} template on its own will appear all that often on most pages, so perhaps I should strip out that part of the code and just have it convert the {{DB|parameter}} versions? I'm open to either/or.
I'm not changing templates like {{DG}} and {{HF}} currently for the simple reason that they're not on the namespace list. I've been wondering if I should add those templates in or not, but if we want to go with leaving the unadorned templates in place, then obviously, there'd be no point. Robin Hoodtalk 19:19, 11 December 2012 (GMT)
Well, all the {{DB|Pagename}} links are not my concern, they get replaced pretty nicely by a standard link. It's just the {{DB}} and now {{DB|par=1}} that should stay in template form I think, they are way more readable that way. --Alfwyn (talk) 19:36, 11 December 2012 (GMT)

{{Achievement}} is fighting me again :([edit]

Hey RH! I dunno if it's lack of sleep or lack of coffee or what, but I'm having trouble with the Achievement template again. I saw that someone added the Dragonrider achievement to SR:Dragon, but the template is displaying all fubar. I've been trying to make it work, but it's resisting me. I assume it has something to do with the achievement being in a different namespace, maybe? I don't know. Anyway, help! :D eshetalk 14:49, 14 December 2012 (GMT)

Sure, I post on Jak's page, and you answer. I post on your page, and Jak answers :P. Thanks anyway! eshetalk 18:55, 14 December 2012 (GMT)