User talk:The Silencer

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I speak the truth, if you don't like it that's your problem.

2012/1: March to April
2012/2: May to December
2013/1: January to June
2013/2: July to December
Gold Star.png I have seven stars :)
Choco chip cookie.png I have two items of nourishment:)


Spell IDs[edit]

Regarding Mysticism Spells page - I saw you reverted my revision regarding the wrong ID of the spell. What led me to believe the names listed on the page are actually IDs is that for almost all spells, Name == ID holds true. Do you think it would be a good idea to add the ID in braces for spells that have an ID != name? (or use an asterisk, you get the idea) Scrawl (talk) 00:54, 5 January 2014 (GMT)

It may be, certainly Skyrim and Oblivion have the ids listed. The problem might be that the vast majority of them (like most ids in Morrowind) are simply the name in lowercase. Maybe its best asked on the talk page of the Spells page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:06, 5 January 2014 (GMT)
Actually IDs in morrowind are not case sensitive, so you could say the vast majority of spells have an ID equal to the name.Scrawl (talk) 21:36, 5 January 2014 (GMT)


Hey there Silencer, hope you are well! :)

I have real life things keeping me busy here for the next week. If you are able, could you throw up a thing or two on the SMPs (Facebook, Twitter - do you have G+ access?) in my absence? It would be much appreciated by our legions of fans! (They love us, they really love us!) If you can, please feel free! And if not, that's okay, too. Thanks in advance and drop me an email if you need anything! -- Avron the S'wit (talk) 18:44, 8 January 2014 (GMT)

Sure, I'll feed their addiction. Just need some ideas. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:13, 8 January 2014 (GMT)


Since Helenaannevalentine retired in August there has been no Project Leader (not active at any rate) for the project, since you're down as Project Advisor do you want to step up of offer it around, i'm not particularly interested but after some confusion I thought it best to find someone to run the project. I plan on contributing (images and wiki-work) but i'm not brilliant at writing articles, but i'll volunteer if for some reason you don't want it (or anyone else does, since I was going to offer it up on the project's talk page). --Kiz(email - talk) 16:31, 29 January 2014 (GMT)

I suppose I could, place pages are my specialty, and there isn't really anyone else there as a leader. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:23, 4 February 2014 (GMT)

Character Templates[edit]

I stand corrected on the edit for Shivering:Brithaur (person); but something occasionally weird is going on with the template parsing on this wiki - at least in Chrome. Ref/Base IDs get prefixed with unparsed template code. In the future I'll ignore it - but someone should probably investigate. My apologies for posting this on your talk page - as I realize this is probably better to post on the forums; however - the site refuses to send me the activation email. Digital Utopia (talk) 18:30, 3 February 2014 (GMT)

To me that sounds like an internal caching problem that purging should cure. Hard to be sure with the problem gone, though. --Alfwyn (talk) 18:41, 3 February 2014 (GMT)
Just to note: I had this problem earlier with mobile Chrome, purging the page didn't fix it, but it seems sporadic. Desktop Chrome appears (at first glance) unaffected. Though I see no difference in the edit shown and those IDs appear fine, desktop and mobile. --Kiz(email - talk) 19:04, 3 February 2014 (GMT)
Sporadic seems to be accurate. Clearing the cache will allow the server/wiki software another go at parsing/generating the page - but that doesn't do anything to fix the root cause. It seems doubtful that it's browser dependent, as it's not the browser's job to parse the wiki markup. So if wiki markup is "leaking" into the (HTML) page source, then somewhere server-side, there's an occasional hiccup.Digital Utopia (talk) 01:21, 5 February 2014 (GMT)
I found the problem. An update from just before Christmas never got pushed to the mobile servers, so anyone accessing those would see the wiki code. It's been fixed now. Robin Hood  (talk) 02:22, 5 February 2014 (GMT)
Currently seeing this issue on desktop Example. Did some investigating - and found something curious. Clearing cache didn't do anything on Chrome - so I tried it out on Firefox, and it displayed fine. Until I logged in that is. When I logged in, I got the same result as I'm currently seeing in Chrome. So, maybe there's something odd going on with my account? Could it be the result of not getting around to finishing up my user page? I managed to get Firefox to return back to the correct display once, after clearing cache/cookies, but since then it's been stuck - as is Chrome, on the improperly displayed page. At any rate - I hope this helps to get to the bottom of it. Digital Utopia (talk) 01:38, 7 February 2014 (GMT)
Yeah, that's the problem I was seeing yesterday on mobile, and I fixed it. I'm noticing that on purging the page, the problem is showing up again, but I've confirmed that my fix is in place, so it may be caching on our end that's causing the issue. I'll talk to Dave about it. Robin Hood  (talk) 03:14, 7 February 2014 (GMT)
Purging on content3 fixed that page for me. It looks like #explodeargs sometimes doesn't get parsed in Template:IDs2, and the surrounding #sub chews up the start of it, but why it chews up so much on the RefID/BaseID line in the infobox I have no idea - {{#len:{{{sep}}}}} shouldn't be as long as that, it's just <BR> after all.
It's quite a challenge to dig through the wiki to find the info on your extensions, though I must admit it's there. What I still don't get is why the "Added by" table row from Template:NPC Summary doesn't show up in the NPC infobox - is that what the <cleantable> tag does? --◄mendel► (talk) 03:20, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

() I'm pretty sure the #explodeargs issue is just a case of it not having been rolled out on mobile originally, and now our memcached server probably has cached copies of it surfacing at random. I've asked the site owner to restart memcached, just so that we can rule that in or out as a cause. The template itself has been working fine (at least that I'm aware of) until just recently, so it seems unlikely that there's anything specific to the template, though we shouldn't rule it out completely.

As to your other question, <cleantable> is supposed to clean out rows where there's no useful data (e.g., a header cell with an empty data cell after it). That said, there are a few quirks/bugs to it, and the creator has left the site, so sometimes we have to work around those. So, if the "Added by" is empty and it's not appearing, that's expected behaviour; if it's being removed on a page where it actually was added by a mod, please let us know which page it's occurring on, so we can investigate. Robin Hood  (talk) 04:43, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

I agree, the template code looks ok. The cleantable tab is also working as intended, it's just surprising at first to see wikicode "disappear". It's a neat hack, though. Thank you for your answer. --◄mendel► (talk) 05:22, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

Perfect touch[edit]

You have done this on skyrim:pickpocket page: (Undo revision 1277830 by (talk) no, this list is potentially endless so there will be none) However, it was not a list, but a correction of a previously existing note: "Perfect Touch does not work on NPCs who wear unobtainable clothing, such as Astrid and Ulfric Stormcloak." This note is missing the fact that PT perk does not work BOTH for non-playable clothing AND essential NPC. (And Ulfric's clothing can be obtained if he is killed later in the game, actually.) Examples given by me were not a list, list is indeed very long, and maybe there should be no examples at all, but the fact of essential npc's immunity should be there, I think. Please, give it some consideration. Sergio Morozov (talk) 05:11, 13 February 2014 (GMT)

I've readded the part on being essential and removed the mention of Astrid and Ulfric. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:38, 13 February 2014 (GMT)
OKay =] Sergio Morozov (talk) 19:00, 13 February 2014 (GMT)

Sorry about that[edit]

I'm pretty new at this, obviously, so not always sure where to put my questions. Thanks. Kellynne (talk) 01:50, 14 February 2014 (GMT)

No problem. You can start a new section on the non-archived talk page if you need to. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:52, 14 February 2014 (GMT)

Heavy Armor XP[edit]

The Heavy XP gain is based on the number of heavy items worn, and the unmitigated damage that a blow would cause even if armor and enchantments reduce the amount of actual damage the player receives. I tested this in detail, wearing unaltered an iron armor complete set while being attacked by a giant garnered no more XP than a legendary iron set with heavy armor enchants. The XP is not related to the damage that a player takes to their health, rather to the potential damage that a successful enemy blow would cause if they were wearing no armor at all.

The net result is that a blow that would cause 400 damage receives the same XP regardless of the actual damage that the player receives to their health.

Basic set plus giant strike = XP Legendary set plus giant strike = Same XP as above

I was really surprised to discover this because the way the wiki currently reads the amount of XP is related to the amount of lost health. This is incorrect. It is worth testing yourself. — Unsigned comment by MyBreton (talkcontribs) at 16:52 on 22 February 2014

What's your point? I only removed the advice on where to best farm damage, as that will never always be true and is pov. The only thing I did was remove the very basic information that having better defense means you can take on stronger enemies; thats a basic gaming standard true across almost every single game where you can equip armor. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:04, 22 February 2014 (GMT)
The way the page reads it make it sound like there is an advantage to use the lower quality armor to lose more health. The footnote on the Leveing page makes good sense. "Raw damage" refers to the damage before armor is taken into account. We should use the same language to better clarify the Heavy Armor and Light Armor pages.
To your point about using stonger items, this is not always the case in Skyrim, for instance using a legendary Dragonbone sword and 4 One handed enchants will garner no more experience than a plane old Dragonbone sword and no skill enchants. To level weapons faster it actually better to use their vanilla version. MyBreton (talk) 17:15, 22 February 2014 (GMT)
If the page reads elsewhere that there is an advantage the change it, I changed what you added to "The armor you wear does not impact skill gains." in the Gaining Skill XP section, so what you are saying to me is irrelevant. We're talking defense here not attack, if it were different then it would get some sort of note but its not for defense, your argument about attack is invalid in this context, especially as a note is on the One-handed page about that situation. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:21, 22 February 2014 (GMT)


Thanks. I couldn't work out where I was going wrong :) --Jimeee (talk) 17:24, 24 February 2014 (GMT)

Literally one character, but its a new thing to us all, still took me a few minutes to see that was all was wrong. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:26, 24 February 2014 (GMT)
Yeah, I was basically doing "monkey see, monkey do" based on what you did on Online:A Hypothetical Treachery, but I'll know for future. --Jimeee (talk) 17:30, 24 February 2014 (GMT)
Oh wow, we've actually started using labelled section transclusion? We've had it sitting around for so long, pretty much unused. I'll be curious to see how we find it in the long run. Robin Hood  (talk) 23:50, 24 February 2014 (GMT)

Save Values?[edit]

This is for references, correct? If so, it should probably go on the book article instead. The lore page is for an in-universe item. —Legoless (talk) 23:53, 24 February 2014 (GMT)

I'm trying to get the reference to work, when I input the cite book with the book version it displays a non formatted link ([[Book:The Daggerfall Chronicles|]]). As you can see I tried using a book link in the title parameter so it would autolink to the book page. The values already exist on the Book page. There is a slight difference in this and the versions for Lord of Souls and The Infernal City were they are redirects and take any requested values from the book page itself. And I just figured out why, its Books. Anyway, I'd still like to see it work so it can be reference more easily. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:03, 25 February 2014 (GMT)
But it still linked to the Lore page. Looks like the problem was using "Book" instead of "Books" - I just made the same mistake on dev. I supplied the ns parameter, seems to work. --Alfwyn (talk) 17:20, 25 February 2014 (GMT)

Question about achievements link[edit]

I recently started Online:Achievements and I noticed that you did some cleanup on it. I've edited infrequently in the past and so I'm unfamiliar with how things are supposed to go on UESP (like the fact that placeholders apparently shouldn't be used), and I was wondering why the listing of achievements that I put in the Incomplete tag was removed. I had hoped that adding the link would be beneficial to other users, creating an easy reference that they could use to improve the page, including those who did not play the game in any of the betas. The only thing that you wrote in the edit summary was "Inappropriate", so I don't understand why it was removed. Is it because it's better suited for the article's talk page? Is there some taboo against linking to other reference sites? I'd like to understand the reasoning behind this so that I know what the expectations for UESP are. -Thunderforge (talk) 16:06, 3 March 2014 (GMT)

Its inappropriate in two ways. ESOhead is another form of a wiki (though more just the technical side), and we should not be sending people there for information from our articles, especially not to copy it and place it here. It is up to our users to find the information and corroborate it themselves before adding it to the wiki. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 16:15, 3 March 2014 (GMT)
Alright, thanks. I definitely meant it in good faith as a way to improve the pages quickly. -Thunderforge (talk) 16:25, 3 March 2014 (GMT)

Redirect speedy deletions[edit]

According to the Deletion Policy, I don't think those redirects you've put up for deletion qualify for speedy deletion. Robin Hood  (talk) 06:18, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

Any specific ones? The talk page redirects should all have been deleted at the time, then there are a couple that are leftovers after people didn't know where to start them so made them in an existing namespace, and then a few from misnamed articles that were moved shortly afterwards. Any that were moved were moved a long time ago now and any in-use external links can reasonably be expected to have been updated. Most of the pages that could potentially be controversial were discussed and agreed to be deleted after a while (such as Lore:Tamriel (continent)). Of course we must take care to consider external links being broken, but except for the one example these are all small articles that have very little risk of being linked to anymore. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:08, 7 March 2014 (GMT)
Battlespire:Screen Shots may be externally linked to, it's pretty ancient. —Legoless (talk) 20:10, 7 March 2014 (GMT)
When an entire namespace was moved redirects were left for a year. 6 months should be long enough for one page that doesn't really have much impact on anything or is all that important. What we must not do is get in the thinking that pages should be kept because an uncontrolled external site has linked to it, we have enough redirects as it is. Our search still works for those that have an interest in finding something. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:17, 7 March 2014 (GMT)
I agree with your thinking on external links, though I know not everyone feels that way. I remember a discussion of this some time ago, and Wrye, at the very least, was strongly advocating to keep redirects if they were linked to externally.
As for the speedies, I was mostly looking at the talk page ones, since many of them are intentional cross-namespace redirects. That means they're not the result of a typo, they're not broken, they're not in mainspace, and they're not image redirects. I suppose they could be considered maintenance deletions (personally, I consider almost any orphaned redirect that's not a spelling variant or similar to be a trivial deletion), but since they were created deliberately, my feeling is that we should probably give them their full week as proposed deletions. I'm not strongly attached to that position, though, just trying to follow the rules. :) Robin Hood  (talk) 22:50, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

Just a comment on RH's first point: Wrye, his sole objection of any substance was that it meant links in his usermanuals for his file downloads where broken. Which shouldn't be the case for any of these, just to let you know. --Kiz(email - talk) 22:54, 7 March 2014 (GMT)


Ah, thanks for letting me know, I'll keep that in mind for next time. And maybe the orrery picture can be used for its future lore page or quest page perhaps. NovaNovik (talk) 14:59, 7 April 2014 (GMT)NovaNovik

Hats, Helmets and Circlets[edit]

With regard to your revert here. Helmets and Circlets occupy one and the same equipment slot, no? The current listing, with Circlets separate from Helmets wrongly implies that more than four pieces with that enchantment can be equipped.

I don't really know what you meant with "Hats are Online". There are Hats as well as Helmets and Circlets in the single-player campaign as well, I merely added Hats for completeness' sake. Nevertheless, they all occupy the same equipment slot, so even if we disregard Hats, my point with regard to Circlets and Helmets occupying the same equipment slot still stands. I'm not entirely sure why you reverted. -- 20:15, 7 April 2014 (GMT)

Helmets and circlets are not the same thing, especially concerning enchanting where items are split into more than just the six pieces of equipment you can generally wear. Hats are the name for a category of equipment in ESO, the same section is Hoods in Skyrim. I assumed you were adding the Hats as a misplaced edit on a Skyrim page rather than an Online page. Now that you bring it up again, I don't recall such a list on any other page of the same type, so it may need removed for consistency. Also, see the bugs on that page to see that helmets and circlets can be worn together. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:25, 7 April 2014 (GMT)
Skyrim:Fortify Smithing contains a list of enchantable items as well. As far as bugs, I'd argue that bugs are not canonical and exploits involving bugs shouldn't influence the main content of articles. Anyway, I see that you're not interested in any input, so have it your way. Bye. -- 00:58, 8 April 2014 (GMT)
Thankyou for informing me of my intentions, it makes it much easier than having to form some of my own. You asked for an explanation of my edit and I gave you one, if you wish to debate a change on how things are presented you can ask on the talk page of the article, I am not the sole arbiter of how pages are displayed and your edit may very well be redone if you consider and show my reasoning to be wrong. By running of you show that it is you that is not open to debate, I will be here if you decide to return and contribute a little more constructively. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:04, 8 April 2014 (GMT)
If I might just add something - I think's intention was to note that the enchantment can be applied to all types of "headgear" - including helmets, circlets, hats and hoods. While light armor hats are in ESO, I think he may have been referring to the clothing hats in Skyrim, which can indeed be enchanted. Similarly, gauntlets, gloves and bracers can have the enchantment applied to them - but these all would come under the banner of "handgear". While the "Items to Enchant" header isn't on all the enchanting pages, personally I think it is of benefit to readers - provided its standardized across all of them. A catch-all term can be used to avoid confusion. Something like:
The <enchant name> effect can be applied to the following items:
  • Headgear (Including helmets, circlets, hats and hoods)
  • Handgear (Including gauntlets, gloves and bracers)
  • Necklaces
  • Rings
Just some thoughts. --Jimeee (talk) 09:32, 8 April 2014 (GMT)

removal of occupants & ores[edit]

Hi Silencer,

I've noted that occupants is for enemies only, and I'm just updating this page:Stendarr's Beacon and noticed that it had occupants completed so I've removed them as Vigilants aren't enemies. I've also removed the Ore values from the header as they aren't in an interior, but I just wanted to confirm both of these are correct. — Unsigned comment by Biffa (talkcontribs) at 00:22 on 10 April 2014

Yes, as a wholly exterior zone it has no internal ore veins. A nice simple rule that won't lead to any confusion. I should get back to working on the project page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:27, 10 April 2014 (GMT)
Yep that I can understand and comply with for both ores and occupants. Biffa (talk) 15:32, 11 April 2014 (GMT)


I assume this "fast travel" thing is about the fast travel loading screen time? Is there a formula in the Oblivion data files regarding the fast travel time (i.e. for every X point(s) of Speed gotten, fast travel is reduced by Y second(s)?)

It does seem odd how speed affects loading time. (certainly beats me). DGAny Questions? 19:34, 10 April 2014 (GMT)

That page has nothing to do with loading times, those are entirely beyond the control of the game. The page is concerned with the speed of travel in the game. Fast traveling consumes time, eg Anvil to the Imperial City takes 8 hours at 50 speed, but only 6 hours at 80 speed (times are completely made up but should show how it works). The same thing applies to horses; fast traveling on a horse takes less in game time than fast traveling while on foot. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:40, 10 April 2014 (GMT)
So it's just that having a higher speed stat gets there at a quicker time; it won't make the loading screen pass in a femtosecond? DGAny Questions? 19:45, 10 April 2014 (GMT)
Correct. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:48, 10 April 2014 (GMT)


I'm trying to transclude Online:Loriasel Tablet, Entry 1 and Entry 2 from Lore:Loriasel Tablet Notes, but it hates me. For some reason, Entry 3 works? Any ideas where I'm going wrong? --Jimeee (talk) 16:19, 17 April 2014 (GMT)

I took a look at it; you accidentally started the section for Entry 2 with 'part1' instead of 'part2'. So you had two part1 starts and zero part2 starts. -- Hargrimm(T) 16:49, 17 April 2014 (GMT)
Hmmm, it seems I'm an idiot. Thanks! --Jimeee (talk) 17:02, 17 April 2014 (GMT)

Staff of Magnus[edit]

Regarding your reason for undoing my edit, I think you misunderstood something. I'm on Xbox 360 and didn't abuse anything to repeat a quest. Aftershock is a repeating Radiant quest that can be started multiple times on any platform. I also tried simply waiting for the area to respawn (as long as 60 days) and there was no staff in the ash pile. I've thoroughly tested many combinations of waiting, starting and completing Aftershock, and starting it seems to be the trigger. I'll leave it up to you whether to add my info back or not. 12:56, 27 April 2014 (GMT)

I see now. I misread it as the quest that takes you to Labyrinthine, which would make some sense at least. Why Aftershock does it is odd, but obviously at that stage the location can be accessed again. I will redo your edit. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 13:41, 27 April 2014 (GMT)


We should hold off on adding abouts to pages, because NPCs in ESO have the tendency to drop or add parts of the name when appearing in different areas. An NPC in one area might have a last name, and then appear as a projection or a vision during another quest without the last name, despite being the same NPC. Jeancey (talk) 04:19, 12 May 2014 (GMT)

Alright. They'll be turned into redirects once known right? Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:53, 12 May 2014 (GMT)
Of course. Just need a good way to figure out which name is either first or used most often. The main ones I'm thinking of right now are a few Khajiit's in reaper's march who were referred with -ma attached and unattached to their name. Jeancey (talk) 11:10, 12 May 2014 (GMT)
Shouldn't we go with the full name as their main page, so long as its displayed ingame at some point of course. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:14, 12 May 2014 (GMT)

Letter from Tillrani[edit]

Ack, sorry about that and thanks for moving it. -- Valadez   Talk  Contributions  21:48, 16 May 2014 (GMT)


Good day, Silencer

I see that you undid my edit on Coldharbour based upon the rationale that it is given that Daedra inhabit Coldharbour as a plane of Oblivion, but my concern is that new users, those who want just quick information, or those not knowledgeable about the world of the Elder Scrolls would be unaware of this. The article does not mention anything about the Dremora that service Molag Bal or that Aurorans are (or used to be, depending on how the events of ESO play out) trapped inside his realm. I refferenced a book that tells us about this and could reference more (I planned to edit the page today) to include the name of one Dremora Clan that services Molag Bal (being the Deathbringers). I also believe that the last sentence of the first paragraph is misleading if you say that Daedra inhabiting the planes of Oblivion being fact as it both gives an exception to Coldharbour and implies that only Soul Shrivens inhabit the realm. "As opposed to other realms of Oblivion, Coldharbour is largely lifeless, instead filled with souls of the dead, called Soul Shriven, where they are tormented for eternity." I understand that nothing below absolute certainty should be used, but books found in ESO say otherwise about this Deathbringer Clan, and another book (cannot remember where or how, but talked about Draedroth [the lizard-like Daedra] also inhabiting the realm) talks about Draedroth being formed within Coldharbour as part of their re-forming process that Daedra go through when they die.

Thank you for reading, please reply! Rencini (talk) 12:46, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

A lot of Daedra inhabit Coldharbour. There's no point being so specific about clans and such until we have all the information. I would suggest changing the wording of the Soul Shriven sentence to imply they dwell there along with the Daedra, but otherwise holding off on the details for now. —Legoless (talk) 13:52, 22 May 2014 (GMT)
Incomplete info is not good on any lore article, the only thing worse is incorrect info. This is part of the reasoning behind locking page creation in lore when new games come out, people rush to add each bit of information they find as they find it, resulting in an incoherent page with conflicting statements. The restrictions are less harsh in the gamespaces (Online in this case), so adding info to the ON:Coldharbour page is fine as it will get more attention and will be quickly changed by someone who has found alternate sources. On the topic of Daedra, types of Daedra are only notable if they are not associated with the realm's Prince, but Daedra clans are a different thing (as far as see anyway). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:06, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

"A" vs. "An"[edit]

If we're going by American English, "An historic" is incorrect. [1] ThuumofReason (talk) 23:35, 30 May 2014 (GMT)

An historic is not incorrect in American English. That link shows nothing to support an alternative argument. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:38, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
Have another then. There's no "argument" because there's nothing to argue. This is a basic grammatical rule, you use "an" when the first phonetic sound is a vowel and "a" when the first sound is a consonant. ThuumofReason (talk) 23:41, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
That link says it is more logical and does not say that it is wrong to use 'an'. In fact it supports its usage as Bethesda has a history of using old forms of words and the grammar associated with them. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:44, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
Um, just because something is older/less common, it doesn't mean it's incorrect. According to the Oxford source people used to pronounce "historical" as "istorical" in the 18th-19th century, hence the "an", and in this context Bethesda was emulating a medieval-esque writing style; it should be expected that older rules and conventions are used. —<({Quill-Tail>> 23:53, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
Hence the addition of the sic template to let people know not to change it from the older English dialect to the more commonly-used modern form. ThuumofReason (talk) 23:57, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
I've already fought a battle in having a sic tag incorrectly used for a correct word, I'm not interested in fighting that battle again so you can read over it and see the reasons why that reasoning is flawed; Lore_talk:The_Bear_of_Markarth. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:01, 31 May 2014 (GMT)

() I wasn't aware that there was already a discussion on the matter. If the community agrees that outdated linguistic patterns don't require sic tags, I'm okay with that, but I wish you had explained that to me in the first place. I kind of thought you were just being obstinate, I didn't realize you actually had something to support your position with. Also, I take issue with your assertion that my reasoning is "flawed". Given that Jeancey made the same assumption I did independently, I don't think it's unreasonable to interpret that template in multiple ways. If the community supports a decision, that's one thing, but could you maybe tell me that in a way that doesn't make it sound like you're talking down to me? ThuumofReason (talk) 00:29, 31 May 2014 (GMT)

The wikipedia policy on sics smacks of interfering bureaucrats poking their noses where they shouldn't. If a UESP policy on sics was written I would argue for more sensible and intelligent rules. Anyone who uses the wikipedia definition should seriously consider revising their knowledge on the English language. That's how I feel about that 'policy' and anyone who uses it. I apologise for any offence given and my short shrift in referring you to the other conversation rather than explaining properly that the flaws lie in the 'policy', and I am obstinate. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 12:41, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
Thank you. ThuumofReason (talk) 13:01, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
Another option here is to create a "do not correct" template of some form (basically, {{Sic}} with different text) or just add HTML comments to discourage editors from "correcting" what they believe is a mistake. Robin Hood  (talk) 21:00, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
That is never a path I would go down. Highlighting correctly used words suggests that we don't trust the intelligence of our readers. Hidden HTML tags should only be used as a very last resort when dealing with words that keep getting changed, because then we can point to that and show why it is needed. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:19, 31 May 2014 (GMT)

Pets as Creatures[edit]

The Online:Pets page is supposed to document the items, not the creatures. The creature pages should be separate (e.g. Online:Mudcrab). —Legoless (talk) 21:00, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

It's an overview page of some creatures, same as passive creatures or undead. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:02, 2 June 2014 (GMT)
Not really. The creatures themselves don't have labels (apart from the Dwarven spider, but the creature name is different than the item). The "pets" are items that you activate to summon the creatures, which is where the section headers come from, i.e. there's an item called 'Pet Imgakin', but no creature with that name. Additionally, we have the page listed here. In the future we may want to replace the sections with a table. Are you under the impression that it's a creature page because of the images? —Legoless (talk) 21:14, 2 June 2014 (GMT)
Yes, the pictures, style, and prose of the sections is written as about the creatures, not an 'item' that summons a creature. You also wrote that Imgakin are visually different to monkeys but we don't have a page on Imgakin to that effect. It would help a lot if an opening paragraph detailing how to use said items to get a pet (e.g. keep them in your inventory, passive/active, how many at once). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:23, 2 June 2014 (GMT)
I could add some of those details now. A page for imgakin would be good too. —Legoless (talk) 21:48, 2 June 2014 (GMT)


Thank you, could you please also delete Orgnum Thras redirect page? 11:39, 11 June 2014 (GMT) (Phoenix_Neko)

Talk page redirects are generally useless so there is no issue over that. On the Orgnum page a short discussion took place that decided to keep the redirect so I see no reason to delete the page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:41, 11 June 2014 (GMT)
Well, the redirect is useless anymore. Yet, I'm surprised by your undo of my change at RPEH's talk page. As far as I can see, you did the upgrade of some link at the same talk page, so I thought it is okay. 11:43, 11 June 2014 (GMT)
Userpages should be left alone as much as possible, and changing the link on that particular page could lead to confusion. Unused redirects are not always useless, but you can propose it yourself if you can show that there is no use for it at all (use the {{Prod}} template because it has already been disputed). Of course if it does get deleted then the userpage link would have to be changed but that's another story. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:50, 11 June 2014 (GMT)
Thank you for clarification. Well, if I use {{Prod}} I think that'd be helluva talking, so I'd rather pass. I suck at negotiations, for my English is far from excellent. 12:16, 11 June 2014 (GMT)
I'm normally a big fan of getting rid of useless redirects, but looking at the discussion that's now on Lore talk:Orgnum, I'd say that that one should stay in. The "Thras" presumably came from somewhere, so unless it was purely a one-time user error when the page was created, someone might be looking for "Orgnum Thras", and even if they see Lore:Orgnum pop up in the search, it may not be clear that the two are indeed the same. Robin Hood  (talk) 13:59, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

Real world NPC names[edit]

I thought it was common to write down information about real world connections of NPC names in the "Notes" section as a curiosity. I recall seeing it earlier in other articles but I can't find an example now. Is this a new policy? Personally I thinks it is fun to see if a (assumed) fantasy name actually is a real name in another language/country. /Fredrik, Sweden. 20:36, 24 June 2014 (GMT)

There have been discussions over name terminology, and I think we've come down to only allowing this in case it's relevant to the character. The fact that a name is common in Sweden is hardly noteworthy, given that many of the names in Skyrim are Scandinavian names. An example of where it would be noteworthy is Vilkas and Farkas, which both mean wolf, which fits their lycanthropy ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 20:48, 24 June 2014 (GMT)
Yeah, of course. It makes sense. Actually the main reason for adding it from the beginning was that I think I've read somewhere that Christer has an additional meaning, namely that it can also mean "big and strong". This definitely does not fits Christer^^. Unfortunately I couldn't find a source other than Wikipedia. Thanks for your time and for contributing to UESP! /Fredrik — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 21:04 on 24 June 2014
Etymologies that are what the character is are acceptable (Farkas means wolf, and he's a werewolf). Etymologies that don't fit are not documented due to subjectivity in determining whether it was deliberate or not. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:15, 24 June 2014 (GMT)

Light Blue Regalia and Amiable Fanriene[edit]

Hello. Regarding the changes I made to the Orinthal, Dancer and Amiable Fanriene pages, I can understand you reverting my edits. I only made the changes to be consistent with the Sontaire and Tilse Areleth pages, where the clothing has been capitalized. The small section I removed on the Amiable Fanriene page didn't make grammatical sense to me: "He wears typical Mania outfit: a light blue regalia." and so I felt that it could be simplified. In addition (as far as I know) only two NPCs wear this outfit (Amiable Fanriene and the Dancer) so calling it a "typical Mania outfit" doesn't seem quite right. Perhaps: "He wears a vibrant Light Blue Regalia." would be more fitting? I look forward to hearing your thoughts. AquaticPossum (talk) 19:43, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

One of the worst types of thinking is 'one page does it so lets spread it everywhere else', it was so inherently wrong to cap the names of clothing that I couldn't even think of a logical reason to type in to the summary. While the exact type of clothing may be limited in scope, it fits the general Mania style of clothing so there's no reason not to mention it, though I accept the grammar could be improved. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:54, 27 June 2014 (GMT)
Items used to be capitalized as they appear in-game, but that was changed after Skyrim came out. Obviously some of the Shivering Isles articles weren't updated to reflect this. I agree that the wording on Amiable Fanriene's page was a bit clunky; hopefully this change is satisfactory. —Legoless (talk) 20:10, 27 June 2014 (GMT)
My apologies for not creating this section at the bottom of the page. Good to know about the practice of not displaying certain items exactly as they appear in-game, I'll bear that in mind for the future. The new wording sounds good to me. AquaticPossum (talk) 22:09, 27 June 2014 (GMT)
Just because they aren't capitalised doesn't mean it isn't correct. The items on their own page (i.e. the clothing page) shows the items name as seen in-game, but when using it in a sentence it is proper to not capitalize it, just as you wouldn't cap horses or bandits. The items are not displayed in a sentence in-game when you see them, and when items are they are capped properly (i.e. the way it is done here). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:28, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

Regarding Marker Icon vs Service Icon[edit]

I was just wondering your reasoning behind using a place link, description and marker icon for stalls in Royal Bazaar, and redirecting to a merchant. What I have been doing, eg for Port Hunding's Open Marketplace, is just naming the stall and its merchants and using the service icon (stalls' individual pages redirect to the Marketplace page). I'm not saying either way is necessarily better than the other, but at certain stalls there is more than one merchant, meaning redirecting to a merchant may not work, and some stalls do not have names. Also, by using Marker Icon, the icon appears fuzzy and on the left of the stall name, whereas the icon belongs to the merchant (and not their stall). Service Icon is much crisper and also links to the correct vendor page. (See also Store Icons vs Vendor Icons at User:Enodoc#Store Types, as I think at some point we were discussing possibly splitting some Stores into different types.) --Enodoc (talk) 14:37, 1 July 2014 (GMT)

The redirects are being created so I thought it better to use them. Service Icon didn't work inside the description template so I used the marker one instead. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:53, 1 July 2014 (GMT)
Oh that's odd. Maybe it doesn't know how to #save a template? I'll have a play around and see what happens. --Enodoc (talk) 20:46, 1 July 2014 (GMT)
It seems that during the #save/#load process it does not fully parse the link. Perhaps the best thing to do then, to stop fuzzy icons appearing in the wrong places, would be to do {{Place Link}} followed by {{Service Icon}}.
In the example of Aralas' Arcane Implements, it would be {{Place Link|Aralas' Arcane Implements}} {{Service Icon|Mystic}} to give
I think this would be a tidier way to do it, particularly in the case of more than one merchant per store (the icons can all be lined up at the end). --Enodoc (talk) 13:05, 7 July 2014 (GMT)

The image i posted[edit]

I deleted it, i found it on google images and i didn't know there was any documentation required, so do i still need documentation if i deleted the image. — Unsigned comment by Wubonater (talkcontribs) at 22:31 on 10 July 2014

Not if you request an admin to delete the image itself, removing it from the page isn't enough if you do not want to use it. Post the {{Speed}} template on the file page to request deletion. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:35, 10 July 2014 (GMT)

i have a question[edit]

how do i Document an image, i have images of arena that the arena page can use, and if i took the picture do i have to document it — Unsigned comment by Wubonater (talkcontribs) at 09:48 on 11 July 2014 (GMT)

Proper documentation involves applying an appropriate license and attribution to the creator. In this case if you have taken the images ingame yourself, you merely need to select the license uespimage (under the "UESP Screenshots only" header) when uploading the image. Your username is automatically applied to the file in accredit you with that image. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:58, 12 July 2014 (GMT)


Just wanted to let you know that I've reverted your use of the {{bug}} template in the Stormhold namespace, which I've done before on account of it screwing with the layout and being of no practical use in the namespace. Since the game's NPCs have a single bug between them, there's no reason to apply irrelevant standards like superfluous bulletpoints and a plural heading over style. Thanks. —Legoless (talk) 02:58, 14 July 2014 (GMT)

Well thats just wrong, there is no reason why Stormhold should be exempt from the same style layout such as plural headers (which are a wiki standard not just UESP), and the bug format, which also serves to show the bug is confirmed or needs confirmation. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 03:01, 14 July 2014 (GMT)
As I said, superfluous bulletpoints and incorrect pluralisation of a single bug. No one is going to confirm the bug because no one plays Stormhold, so unless you want to test it out yourself I imagine you'd be dependent on either me or Krusty for confirmation - and since I added the bug, that's a no-no. The "bug format" is for games that require a list layout, and the confirmation requirement was brought about by the huge variance of play in the sandbox games, which is kind of ridiculous to impose on a simple Java mobile game. Those sections are not lists, they are documentation of a single bug written in prose. —Legoless (talk) 03:08, 14 July 2014 (GMT)
Again your concerns are invalid, the use of the nobullet parameter would restore the layout you wish to see, and the header format isn't questionable, all headers should be plural, be they for a single sentence or a single image, it really isn't up for debate unless you wish to rewrite the entire style layout. You say/suggest that Krusty has played the games, so a quick check with him to confirm the bug is all that is needed, and then even that issue is resolved. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 03:24, 14 July 2014 (GMT)


Stop hand.svg Your personal attacks against Biffa are out of line. This kind of behavior has to stop, for the good of the Wiki. As a long standing contributor, you should have known this. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 00:53, 17 July 2014 (GMT)
Glad to see that another person has decided to read into a situation they know nothing about, thanks. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:58, 17 July 2014 (GMT)
You're really not making yourself look any better here. Play the victim all you like, but the fact remains that YOU were the one who started that confrontation, YOU were the one who broke the etiquette policy (in fact, you openly defied it), and YOU are consequently the one in the wrong here. Any outside observer (which both Dominus and I were) could clearly see that your comments were inappropriate. This warning is entirely justified, so just take it as a learning experience and we can all move on without this kind of thing happening again. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 01:04, 17 July 2014 (GMT)
This is completely unwarranted. How can you claim neutrality yet bring up a separate topic within that comment of your's, all while avoiding the issue at hand. I barely touched breaking the etiquette policy, while Biffa clearly broke it saying I 'gone out of your way to make thing unpleasant for me on this site.' Warning me 'for the good of the wiki' when I was trying to engage an editor and improve their clearly flawed methods is so ironic it hurts. Get back to me when you can contribute to the issue of Biffa's testing methods. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:49, 17 July 2014 (GMT)


Per this, can you point me towards where this was standardised? As far as I can tell it hasn't been fully implemented (see Skyrim:Dawnguard Places for example), and I don't see the point in mislabelling places for the sake of having an icon. —Legoless (talk) 17:31, 4 August 2014 (GMT)

The template was created for the express purposes of pages like those ones. It is used for places that have a type but lack an icon, where others of the same type have an icon. A handful of the places on the Dawnguard page are worldspaces, for which there is no icon. As a repetitively new addition (January '13), being introduced between games it isn't surprising that many pages don't have it yet. The template does not mislabel anything, when used in the place link template it indicates what type of building it is, not that it has an icon on the map. This template was made after the Place Link template was changed from deriving the icon directly from the saved value for the type, and instead taking the marker id value (which these pages lack), so in essence there was no outward change, it is simply a continuation of how things were done. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:48, 4 August 2014 (GMT)


That block reason is a joke, at what point was I intimidating, or are you just afraid to answer my questions? Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:48, 5 August 2014 (GMT)


Stop X.svg This IP address has been blocked from editing UESPWiki for one week for persistent abuse of other editors. Your attitude is nothing short of toxic at this point, and your contributions have become disruptive. If you wish to appeal the block, you may make your request on your talk page, which you can still edit even while being blocked. eshetalk 22:50, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

As a side note, if you continue to abuse other editors using the privilege of editing your talk page, that right can be removed as well. Please take this time to reconsider your attitude toward other members of this community. eshetalk 22:51, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

You don't know the meaning of abuse of power do you? Of course I appeal this nonsense on the grounds that you don't know what you are doing. You and the other administrators have deliberately lied in my appeal over my warning, have willingly broken policies to support your lies, and generally have no idea what you are doing. What abuse have I committed now? Do you think I would just lie down and let you misuse your administrative tools? Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:54, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
Block and run Eshe, block and run. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:00, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
I've been following the discussion at the Admin Noticeboard, and you have persisted in name-calling the administrators, accusing them of being delusional, liars, and so forth. Normally I'd be inclined to say that they should respond in kind, but they have consistently been more reasonable with you than you have been with them. You keep acting like they have committed some horrible injustice against you, yet the evidence for their case against you is plastered all on the admin noticeboard, and you have escalated this to the point where you are figuratively foaming at the mouth and getting yourself blocked for blatant personal attacks on this site's staff. You seem like a great editor, and it would be a shame to lose you, but you have either completely missed the entire point of that previous discussion or completely ignored it. You received your warning for your attitude, the way you have been attacking people with your comments (it's not subtle), and now you continue doing the same thing against the administrators in some naive attempt to do what? Do you not understand what you are doing or do you just not care? ∬(RisingDusk)dxdy 23:03, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
If the truth were spoken there would be no lies. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:16, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

(edit conflict) It's unfortunate that it's come to this. For three weeks, I haven't seen any more misbehavior on your part, and I was really hoping that you had cooled down and that we could all move past this. Like elliot before you, you've responded to a singular, relatively minor incident by actively transforming it into a much larger one that necessitates action. Given that the incident that got elliot banned involved you, I would have thought you'd be able to see the parallels between your two situations. Maybe you did and you just don't care, since you were the only one pushing for your rights to be removed. The funny thing is, if you hadn't revived that discussion today, I would have been willing to forgive the things you said earlier as a moment of (admittedly extreme) passion. You're a good editor, yet you were willing to throw all that away over some misplaced sense of pride. I know you know better than this, but it really doesn't matter. You've got what you were after, so if you have any desire to return to editing in a week, you should refrain from any more jibes. "Unfortunate" is the only word I can think of to describe this episode. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 23:19, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

When I and my words are twisted and given false meanings I will defend myself, its a pity people choose to accept the lies rather than the truth. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:23, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
In order to avoid edit warring or angering Silencer, can the notice please read "This account ..." rather than "This IP address ..."? I didn't think it was tampering with the warning (It only made it a valid phrase), but Silencer considered it to be so. May I know why you reverted it Silencer? ~ Ad intellige (talk) 00:01, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
Silencer was correct in this case. His IP address has been blocked from editing, not just his account (I think that's how that works), and he is right that you're not supposed to mess with block messages, even for clarity's sake. It's kind of like how we don't fix typos in other users' posts. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 00:12, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
Note that due to The Silencer's response to Eshe with its myriad personal attacks, I have re-blocked him without the ability to edit his talk page. Those of you who wish to communicate further will have to do so by e-mail. For the time being, his ability to e-mail is also not blocked, so he can also contact anyone he feels he needs to by e-mail. If that becomes problematic, please post here and that setting can be changed. Robin Hood  (talk) 00:57, 6 August 2014 (GMT)


The appeal to the block which I received by abuse of power.

Why do I need the ability to edit? Because even in a reduced role I am still the one cleaning up edits, keeping them inline with the style and policies of the wiki where others do not.

What pages? None specifically because the nature of my edits are mostly from the random pages link, cleaning up other edits, or following things such as new files and adding anything missing.

Examples? Again, the nature of my edits preclude being able to provide an example. Look at my contributions and you'll see no pattern.

Being unable to show anything specific doesn't help, but an example of the workload I bore would be the vast increase in unpatrolled edits in the last (almost) month from a rather small pool of around 10 a day left to anywhere between 20 and 50.

I may have called the admins involved liars, but I can and did prove it. Blocking me for stating the obvious and seeking answers and some integrity is hardly a fit reaction. A week is hardly a fit response to being called out on a lie. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:15, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

The "proof" you claim to offer in your personal attacks is not recognized as such by anybody else on the wiki, nor is the alleged abuse of power. Given the fact that your revival of 3-week old issues and needling of other editors (which can only be intentional on your part, judging by your mention of "burning bridges" in your edit summaries here and here), not to mention the fact that getting blocked was YOUR idea, I see no reason the block should be removed. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 23:40, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
Thank you for twisting my words. I said I would rather be blocked than warned, not that I wanted blocked, or that I agreed that I should be. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:46, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
Silencer, I recently emailed you questions that are related to this. I honestly want to know what your side of this story is. Perhaps you would be willing to share it in order to increase the chances of your appeal? I don't personally see any issue with the administrator actions, although I am admittedly biased because I issued the original warning. I feel that you have not provided enough proof, although perhaps I am just missing it. I can see Silencer's point. Although, if we are to go through with that, there is really no point in this appeal. After all, it would be a permanent block rather than a temporary one. If Silencer can provide proof in the forms of diffs, either publicly or privately, I will support the removal of the block. Until then, or if he is unable to prove it to my satisfaction, I think it should remain.
You are a great editor, and I honestly regret pulling the trigger and putting this all in motion. Was it necessary at the time? Yes, I believe it was. I do regret it honestly and would like to apologize for everything. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 23:57, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
I see no emails from you in my inbox, and why should I discuss anything with you when you didn't even feel the need to clear up any possible issues before starting this. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:03, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
Strange. It must have been put into your spam folder then. I told the software to send me a copy, and I have that copy. You have every right to refuse to discuss it with me. As my email not being received shows, even if I tried to clear up any issues (I did not contact you, but I did suggest that you both take a break and calm down) it wouldn't have made a difference. I was merely throwing the option out there. You have no obligation to follow through with that. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 00:08, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
So it is (I didn't see anyone else's mail in there though for those who might ask). If the date on it is correct (3rd August) then its a little late for that kind of question seeing as you'd given the warning over two weeks beforehand. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:19, 6 August 2014 (GMT)


While I did say it there, what relevance has that discussion to the recent one? Pity I wasn't invited to my own trial to learn how far back we'd go. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:20, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

You brought it up, not me. On Biffa's talk page, you provided a link accusing him of mocking you. That response was to your "defiling" post. Robin Hood  (talk) 00:53, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

Bug fixes are never guaranteed ???[edit]

Excuse me, but what exactly does this mean? Does this mean unofficial fixes may or may not work, depending on various conditions? Unlike Morrowind and Oblivion I don't have the time to concern myself much with Skyrims's internal processing (Creation Kit, Papyrus scripts etc.), but judging from the previous games, I assume most bugs can be fixed on the fly without starting a new game, or is Skyrim so much different than it's predecessors? And even If this was the case, I'm using the USKP v2.0.4a since I've started the second playthrough of the game, so bugs that are claimed to be fixed by even lower versions should no longer occur, right? And last I would also be interested in how the UESP defines a "game bug". Is a bug just a feature of the game or a certain quest which is defined, but for some reasons, does not work as intended? Or is a bug also an illogical game- or quest-feature (this is my definition of a bug, at least when it comes to computer games) e.g. contingents of hostile troops and equipment remaining after a hold was taken by one of the two waring sides? Since a couple of such "bugs" I've been submitting during the past months have already been removed, I would be interested in some enlightenment regarding this obscurity.--PLRDLF (talk) 22:59, 16 August 2014 (GMT)

It means that the fix is not guaranteed to fix it, even in the official patches. Some bugs are more inherent in the game and require more work even though the 'fix' appears to work. An easy example is the 'backwards flying dragons' that were the result of an attempted fix for something else, causing more problems than there were in the first place. There is no policy on what is and what isn't a bug for the site, its mostly subjective, though things like spelling mistakes and grammar in books is not considered a bug as they can easily happen in real life, whereas the USKP changes any it finds. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:19, 16 August 2014 (GMT)

Pointless edit[edit]

How is it a pointless edit to remove an underline within a link, which are supposed to be removed? Biffa (talk) 08:53, 17 August 2014 (GMT)

Underscores are not supposed to be removed, it is a choice for the user to use either. The majority of users will remove them when doing other things to the page, but an edit to remove them on its own serves no other purpose than to bump your edit count. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:04, 17 August 2014 (GMT)
While I agree that removing the underscores in a link is essentially pointless, I have seen other people (including me) make similar edits that have no real effect on the article, and may just be the result of low-grade OCD (in my case). According to the Links page, either form is fine for internal links, so undoing it is just as pointless, and both edits add unnecessary entries to the Recent Changes list. A friendly note on Biffa's talk page would have probably been a more appropriate action here, especially considering the recent history between the two of you. --Xyzzy Talk 05:17, 18 August 2014 (GMT)
Pointless edits are heavily discouraged across all wikis, to the extent that undoing them is the correct action. I'll thank you to know the correct response to them before saying the wrong thing. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:28, 18 August 2014 (GMT)
Per Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary, "Don't revert an edit because it is unnecessary — because it does not improve the article. For a reversion to be appropriate, the reverted edit must actually make the article worse." Robin Hood  (talk) 17:35, 18 August 2014 (GMT)
This is about pointless edits, and what to do when that happens, not the general thinking. Focused policies often have exceptions to the general rules. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:20, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

SRHRP Header standardization[edit]

Hey Silencer - Was wanting to standardize the headers in the Skyrim Houses pages, as they are pretty much all over the place. I posted this on the project discussion but was advised to double-check with you and Krusty (cc'd on this). I was hoping to start cleaning up some of the Houses, but wanted your input on headers before I do. I was proposing:

==Header 1, no italics, for main space, i.e., The White Phial, Bob's House==
===Header 2, no italics, for any zones===

Let me know your thoughts. --Beezer1029 (talk) 22:28, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

Not-so-blind Falmer?[edit]

I'm just curious where it says that the Falmer aren't completely blind. You're way more up on your Lore than I am, so I don't doubt the accuracy of your statement, but I'd always thought they were completely blind and I'm curious to read (or listen to, whatever) whatever it is that mentions that it's not total. Robin Hood  (talk) 01:08, 19 September 2014 (GMT)

Their Blindness value is only 80%, though lore (and the general lack of eyes) suggests they have total blindness. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 02:02, 19 September 2014 (GMT)
Ah, got it! Thanks. Robin Hood  (talk) 06:27, 19 September 2014 (GMT)

Regarding Civil War Forts[edit]

My apologies for "edit warring". My computer has been acting up and I thought it wasn't saving my edits. And I was merely putting on Fort Snowhawk what was already on Neugrad and Sungard(which i did not edit). Don't know how to do the verify on the edits. Also, didn't know you commented on my discussion topic because I had been waiting for a response for a week and no one said anything so I decided to edit the page myself. From what I can see, if I side with the Empire, forts in Imperial holds stay occupied by enemy factions, however forts in Stormcloak holds become occupied by Stormcloak troops. The only way to garrison Imperial soldiers is to conquer Stormcloak-controlled forts. The only exception is Fort Greymoor which has become correctly occupied by Imperial soldiers after defending the city of Whiterun. I do not know if the reverse is true (siding with the Stormcloaks/fighting the Empire). 22:11, 2 October 2014 (GMT)

No worries, but lets keep the comments all in one place now, on Fort Snowhawk's talk page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:25, 2 October 2014 (GMT)
I have since read and commented on Fort Snowhawk page. So let us continue the discussion. 22:32, 2 October 2014 (GMT)


I noticed Weye being considered a village, while it is definitely the house of Aelwin Merowald (without the UOP). I was wondering if the house can be integrated on that page, since both have the same name, because currently the house info is still on Aelwin's page (and his house is also incorrectly stated as "Weye's Farmhouse") ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 14:14, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

Weye includes both the inn and the house if I'm not mistaken. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:25, 6 October 2014 (GMT)
Yes, but I'm asking if the house info would be included on that page as a separate section ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 17:56, 6 October 2014 (GMT)
No, it would go on the house page, which would need created and disambiguated. My opinion on that would be to just add "Weye (house)" without moving "Weye". Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:04, 6 October 2014 (GMT)
Yes that occurred to me after I just posted. Weye should be moved to Weye (settlement) or something though ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 18:10, 6 October 2014 (GMT)
Not necessarily, as the settlement has more priority, and the opening sentence can easily be changed to explain the difference with a link, or the use of an about if the need is felt. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:14, 6 October 2014 (GMT)
Well it's easier to do it your way, I'll go ahead and create the Weye (house) page, and I'll move the current image and reupload one of both buildings ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 18:22, 6 October 2014 (GMT)


I removed that note saying: "She is a member of the bandit class, which determines the level of her skills." You came along, and, for starters, I noticed you had pressed the "undo" option and then pressed "save changes", which had undone my edit saying in the edit summary: "so are a lot of other things in the article". Tell me then: if by you saying there are a lot of other things in the article, then why are they not removed then? Pages need consistency. If pages had consistency, there would be a note on every NPC page saying: "<NPC name goes here> is a member of the <class name goes here>, which determines the level of his/her skills.". It isn't on every NPC page, so it is a little more than obvious it is something that he wiki lacks consistency of. Please could you explain why you had to undo my edit? DG#:)|

In my opinion, notes like that should be removed because I really don't think an NPCs class is worthy of a note. Also because it's not on all of the Skyrim NPCs' pages. Maybe it's there because Asta doesn't seem like a bandit therefore her class is a curiosity? I don't know for sure, but this is just my opinion. On another note, I don't think you meant to come across this way, but please, please, please watch the tone you use when writing a talk page message, especially regarding an undo. I can understand that it's frustrating sometimes, but please try and have a more friendly and positive tone so there aren't any unnecessary and completely avoidable conflicts. •WoahBro►talk 12:39, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
If my memory serves, the reason those lines exist is because of a discussion a while back regarding NPCs who have classes that are incongruous with their actual function, as we normally start NPC articles with (Name), a (race) (class). It's so the class can be noted in the article without describing the NPC misleadingly, so we don't end up calling Farkas a blacksmith or describe all the NPC's who use the Dremora class as dremora when they are not. --AN|L (talk) 14:31, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
Class is extremely relevant to an NPC, especially ones that are involved in combat. As such it is a requirement to have it mentioned in the description, but in some cases the class does not reconcile with the NPC without speculating or making unsubstantiated assumptions and so it was agreed that in those cases it could be removed from the main description and placed as a note (which made no assumptions or guesses but simply states facts). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:44, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
For anyone interested, the extensive discussion about this can be found here. --Xyzzy Talk 17:48, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
Asta is technically a bandit. That's what the CK says anyways. Also, as a side note, I am not quite sure that— Oh. Wait. Maybe it is incorrect. Thr discussion on "Introductory Sentence of NPC Pages" is irrelevant to mentioning the NPCs class in the "Notes" section DG#:) 17:55, 11 October 2014 (GMT)
This isn't a debate on whether or not it should be there, if you want to remove them all start a topic on the community portal. The note is correct as of the current policies. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:17, 11 October 2014 (GMT)

Neither prettier nor better[edit]

Is it really more aesthetically pleasing to have ‡‡ and ††† as footnote markers? Is it really more pleasing to have "N/A" instead of a clean "—"? What wording was changed so significantly that it would be confusing? Can you cite the previous instances of such wording being confusing? —Proton[talk] 21:59, 19 October 2014 (GMT)

Yes, it is better to have them because it is consistent with the rest of the site, these are the preferred markers. N/A is clear (the plain English part) in what it means, more than a semi-random dash that needs to be interpreted. Many of the individual artifact pages have had questions and/or edits based purely on the misconception and plain ignorance of tempering requirements, mainly for enchanted items where Arcane Blacksmith is needed to temper it, but an additional perk is needed to get the doubling effect of the tempering. Also, the preferred style on those sort of pages is passive, a giving of information, rather than a how-to, as this is better for imparting clear information that doesn't require any interpretation to asses the facts. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:23, 19 October 2014 (GMT)
Thank you for the cohesive response. While I feel that numerical footnotes are superior to obtrusive repeated daggers, I'm not quite motivated enough to do a mass revamp across the wiki, so I'll leave out as is for the meantime.

Player Speed[edit]

According to the Race talk page, the people were testing it with the player character, and the height of the character changed the speed. Everything I've heard also points to this being the case. Jeancey (talk) 21:56, 20 October 2014 (GMT)

I didn't get an edit conflict or add it back after your undo (as you can see by my summary). I had a look on the talk page after I added the sentence because I believe that your character does use a "standard" setting (i.e. always at 1), as observed by your character always having the same viewpoint, and that the height number might be a multiplier to your character (which allows for the same view to all races when in dialogue), but lacking the creation kit I cannot test that. The people on the talk page seem to be discussing and using the scale setting rather than a proper test on the height setting, as users Warrior7 and BlackTheAltmerMage make note of. Most of it appears to be guesswork based on observation without test too, with only one I'd class as a proper test, but that method was questioned, so I'd like a proper check on the player's height if possible. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:17, 20 October 2014 (GMT)
You wouldn't have gotten an edit conflict since you just added to the original version, not really modified it. You would have only gotten a conflict if the sentence that was originally there was changed in some way. I would think this would be fairly easy to test. Just make a character identical in every way except race. Say a male altmer vs a male bosmer. Record how long it takes each to run a straight distance (like the bridge in front of windhelm). If they are the same, then the height doesn't affect speed. If they are different, then it does. To be safe I would drop everything from your inventory for each character, so that every aspect is the same. One of the reasons they were testing the player scale (from what I can gather) is that it is possible that the change isn't affecting speed but the scale itself. So altmer's scale is 1.05, and a bosmer's scale is .95. The scale affects the speed, but the speed multiplier stays at 1.00. I could be wrong though, but I think that's why they were using the player's scale to test it. Jeancey (talk) 22:38, 20 October 2014 (GMT)
That's the way it worked in Oblivion. Rpeh and I tested it fairly thoroughly. All the in-game console commands showed a speed multiplier of 1, but running across the stupidly long bridge in front of the Imperial City, it was very clearly different between the different races. I just tested on the Windhelm bridge with similar results, using the console SetRace command to quickly switch with an otherwise identical character. With a female Altmer, I ran across the bridge in about 23 seconds; with a female Breton, it took 26. (Just read the thread in question...glad to hear we got the same values! I'll try again with "real" characters shortly.) I repeated the test several times with each to be sure. Also, your viewpoint does change between races, though you have to be standing right up against something like a door with a pattern on it to notice. But standing against the Windhelm door, clearly, as a Breton, the center of the screen was lower than as an Altmer. Robin Hood  (talk) 02:56, 21 October 2014 (GMT)
Thanks, I don't tend to get that close to things to notice any real difference, and a proper test using the pc rather than simple observation is better. I think that it being the same mechanics in Oblivion is the clincher here, as well as you getting the same results as the only other pc based test. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:24, 21 October 2014 (GMT)


Please remain civil. This kind of behaviour is completely out of line. —Legoless (talk) 13:57, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

Excuse you me, but an admin has offended me twice, and twice refused to even comprehend the possibility that they are mistaken, despite evidence being proven. Unless you too wish another inquest into your unacceptable behaviour, I suggest you implore the other admin to use their common sense and stop avoiding the issue. I am well within my rights to suggest a warning might be in order, no matter who the person is, unless you are suggesting that admins have special privileges? Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:08, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
Okay, I am going to jump in here and say that Silencer, your comment could be perceived as uncivil. This reply was also rather rude to Legoless, but I can see your point. I think that the way you suggested the warning was the problem, not the suggestion itself. Overall, I think your words are misinterpreted as mean or harsh, despite that not being your goal. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 14:26, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
My goal is to get a response from Jeancey that is in direct relation to the insults he threw my way, either an apology or a defense of those comments. He has offered nothing except some conceptualized idea of a policy that he believes in, that in no way mitigates the actions he took. The only real surprise is that no admin took it upon themselves to try and silence me earlier, and every attempt at doing so is worthy of a warning itself. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:32, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
What insults did he throw your way? I only skimmed the passage and haven't read previous remarks between the two of you. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 14:38, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
If the insults are so hidden for you, yet you can justify Legoless's unjustifiable comments, then you cannot be trusted as a mediator. He accused me multiple times of breaking multiple policies, something I have never done. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:43, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

() Jeancey has commented only twice on that topic, and neither post includes any mention of policies, they both just say that he doesn't think the images should be deleted without contacting the user. I understand where you're coming from Silencer, but outrage and accusations will get you nowhere. --AN|L (talk) 14:48, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

And comments such as "here we go again...." show exactly the type of people who are unsuitable to hold a neutral position. If you cannot be civil stay off my page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:51, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
(edit conflict × 2) In that conversation, the only thing I could see as a potential insult was Jeancey saying "It simply isn't okay to delete another users personal images without their consent.". I suspect that you are referencing other conversations, seeing as Jeancey only commented twice in the discussion stated by Legoless. Have you attempted to contact Jeancey directly about your grievances? It is entirely possible that he was not meaning to offend you, like how you don't mean to offend people with what you say. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 14:56, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
Trying to assume good faith when good faith has been broken is a ridiculous concept, so no, I have no reason to believe Jeancey was not deliberately insulting me. Some editors simply can't stand the truth being told, and have repeatedly tried to stop discussion when they come under scrutiny (I'm looking at you Legoless, trying to hype up a situation to where telling the truth becomes a blockable offense). That sentence is entirely made-up, it is fine to delete user images without telling them, it has been done since before that administrator joined the site, by admins who have had far more experience with the rules and policies Jeancey has misquoted (deliberately or not). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 15:12, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
An action may be just as much an insult as a statement. Silencer may believe Jeancey insulted his integrity, even if that was not Jeancey's intention, based on Jeancey's edit summary referencing the deletion policy. I believe Silencer proposed deletion according to the Wikipedia Deletion Policy, Reason 12: "files that are unused or obsolete", which I understand is used de facto when we do not have our own policy, which we do not on unused images. It should be noted that it was a proposed deletion, emphasis on proposition, and not a speed request. Anyone is within their right to object to and remove a prod, as policy states. Robin's statement sums this up the best: "Proposed deletions really don't have any particular rules governing them other than the fact that nobody has objected to the deletion. I think that makes the case for user images, especially: if the user doesn't come back to object to the proposed deletion of an unused image, the image can be deleted."
Jeancey referenced an aspect of our deletion policy which does not actually exist (one way or another), and I believe Silencer was just trying to point out that fact. What should be taken from this is the need to expand and/or revamp the deletion policy. Apologies to you Silencer if I have misinterpreted any of your comments in my attempt at summarising. --Enodoc (talk) 16:12, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
And there we have it, after all the invented hype, someone else notices the thing I pointed out at the very start, "Jeancey referenced an aspect of our deletion policy which does not actually exist". So by looking beyond my name someone else can see that I was in fact correct in pointing out that Jeancey was wrong. Such a pity that it took three talk pages and a visit to the admin board before another user was prepared to say it. I hope you continue to have the courage to state the truth in the future Enodoc. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:46, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

() I've barely been active for the last few months, and will remain so for the near future, so I'm not getting too involved in this, and I'm not going to say anything except this: Please be careful with how you word things, Silencer. Even a brief glance at that message revealed several snide comments, and I see several more in your responses here. You're playing a dangerous game here, and it's a game that nobody wins. You're a good editor. I know that. We all know that. You don't have to prove anything to us. We really don't like having to block you or give you warnings or whatever, because that means the policy is being broken, and that's precisely what we don't want. Even more so because we respect you. To be honest, the reason I got so upset in the big episode a few months ago was because it hurt me to see someone I respected acting so disrespectfully to someone else.

Please be careful with how you word responses. In several of your conversations above (like this, this, and even this), you've shown you can be civil in dealing with other people. Please continue to do that. This isn't an instruction or order, it's a request from me to you as a fellow editor. I'm not going to make any further responses in this discussion; everything else I can say on the subject, I've already said. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 02:23, 28 October 2014 (GMT)


I would like a proper and detailed explanation of this block. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:53, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

Blocked (2)[edit]

Stop X.svg This account has been blocked from editing UESPWiki. If you wish to appeal the block, you may make your request on your talk page, which you can still edit even while being blocked. Robin Hood  (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

Over the last several months, The Silencer has demonstrated repeatedly that he has difficulty being civil. This has been targetted at multiple users including Biffa, Legoless, Jeancey, and others. Offences range from snarky comments to accusations without proof to continued use of the term "lying" when, in fact, there has been nothing more than simple misunderstanding or miscommunication. The wiki is not benefitting from this drama, so I've put an end to it for the next six months. Robin Hood  (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

All my accusations have proof, I have yet to be asked to show that proof, rather I have been treated abhorrently by the administrators, including yourself, who would rather block me than see that proof. The claims you make against me are entirely stemmed from the first block I received that was knowingly based on lies (or so-called miscommunication). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:01, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
You were asked to show that proof during your last block. You showed none. Instead, you responded only with vague hand-waving and repeated assertions that you had proof. Proof involves links and quotations from those links, not repetitions of the phrase "I have proof". Even in the discussion about deleting user images, you repeated that you had proof of Jeancey's insulting comments, yet when it was asked for, your only response was to belittle the user who asked for it and still provide none.
Has Jeancey made mistakes during all this? Sure. As I've said previously, we all do. Administrators are no more infallible than anyone else. Your response to the situation, however, was entirely uncalled for. Rather than trying to resolve it like an adult, you started with impolite and degenerated from there. "Jeancey is wrong" may be factual based on what he said, but there were better ways of putting it, like "Jeancey, can you clarify what you meant? I don't see that anywhere in our policies." When Dominus replied, you started with "Well, if you knew our policies...." Again, hardly a civil way to engage in conversation. Your responses after that in that thread alone were nothing short of rude and insulting.
The thread above, where Legoless asked you to be civil, you again failed to be civil at all. Instead, you tried to turn the discussion to be about him or about the policy rather than dealing with your own civility issue. What's more, instead of acknowledging any impropriety of your own, you instead launched an interaction ban. I'm sorry, but no. The interaction problems here are consistently with you, nobody else. Until you can learn to deal with your civility issues yourself, without making it about anybody else, you're blocked. Robin Hood  (talk) 18:14, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
You asked me for proof after I was blocked with no intention of allowing me to clear my name, it wasn't worth my time explaining anything to you at that time. I provided the proof of Legoless indiscretions on the admin board which he admitted were true but not deliberate, but a lie is "an inaccurate or false statement" so the truth is a lie. Why is a fact uncivil, a fact is neutral, its perception is entirely that of the readers and cannot be attributed to the messenger, so 'Jeancey is wrong' is both factual and civil. Unlike your own unprovable claims about me, I can see that my response to Dominus might be taken that way. My responses after that are in direct reply to an admin who has just made up a policy to justify their actions, if I am to be taken up on incivility for those comments, then that admin should receive the same scrutiny over their false claims. If you need more proof ask for it, before you extend my block. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:36, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
3lie: "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive". There was no intent, therefore repeatedly calling people liars is not only inappropriate, but also insulting. As I just said on the AN, if you feel you've been wronged here, by all means, I'm absolutely willing to reconsider my block. Clearly, there are people who feel my block may have been premature, but just as clearly, people expect this type of behaviour to be dealt with. Contrary to your belief, I have every intention of allowing you to present whatever proof you feel is relevant. If you want me to overturn my own block, though, you will have to do so on the grounds of how we can improve the situation in the future. Of course, you also have the option to appeal to other administrators or Dave if you feel I'm not being objective.
For whatever it's worth, I know what it's like to be on the wrong side of a bad admin or a team of admins who just aren't seeing the problem—I've been there. I don't want to be one of those admins for you, but I also can't let incivility go completely unchallenged and unchecked. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:09, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
#3 here as well "an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood." You seem to have contradicted yourself. You say you are willing to listen to claims of being wronged here but also state that you won't overturn a block based on those reasons on those grounds. You also say on the admin board you say in regards appealing the block "but at least as far as I'm concerned, it will have to be on the grounds of "This has gotten out of hand. How can we fix it?" rather than "Here's why everyone else but me is wrong, lying, or covering things up."" I'm not entirely sure where I stand with you, as you seem to be ruling out the possibility of me appealing against it on the grounds that it was given, but appealing against it on grounds that it has nothing to do with? Feel free to clarify. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:30, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
#1 at the link you give is how most people perceive the word "lie". That's undoubtedly why it's #1. I don't see my statements as contradictory. If you want me to overturn my own block, then it needs to involve a fix to the civility issue, regardless of whatever other issues there may be. However, only discussing everyone else's wrong-doing, without addressing your own, will not convince me to overturn my block. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:44, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

Good to see you back![edit]

Good to see you back and active again! —MortenOSlash (talk) 22:15, 28 April 2015 (GMT)

Well, someone needs to clear out the maintenance categories, may as well be me. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:23, 28 April 2015 (GMT)
Ditto. Nice to have you operational again!--Beezer1029 (talk) 22:47, 28 April 2015 (GMT)
I'm glad to see you editing again, too! :)  ~Shuryard (talk) 23:19, 28 April 2015 (GMT)
Welcome back! :) Holomay (talk) 08:09, 29 April 2015 (GMT)


Gah! I'm forever forgetting to add categories to pages and images. Thanks for the fix. Robin Hood  (talk) 18:18, 2 May 2015 (GMT)

Murkmire books[edit]

Hey, so the murkmire books aren't in game yet, they are data mined. There was a decision to keep them out of more until they are released, which is why they were only in the online namespace. There are a few datamined books we are keeping out of lore for that reason. Jeancey (talk) 21:29, 5 May 2015 (GMT)

All I can find is this message from yourself on the overview page "whenever it gets moved to lore". Also the lore links were left requesting pages. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:34, 5 May 2015 (GMT)
it wasn't on these books, it happened on another set of datamined books iirc. In any case, I just wanted to let you know, probably should avoid moving any books in the future to lore unless they have a collection listed with a full collection page. Jeancey (talk) 21:38, 5 May 2015 (GMT)
For reference, the discussion on this is here (also see here), and is based on the guideline of not including pre-release content in lorespace. Although I appreciate you may not have realized that it was only pre-release content, which is my fault because I forgot to mark it as such. --Enodoc (talk) 22:34, 5 May 2015 (GMT)

Great Houses membership[edit]

Hey Silencer! There is a discussion on the Great Houses membership. I'd say that while Miirist Redoran very likely belongs to the House Redoran, judging by her location, I cannot surely say the same about Mondran Redoran, for instance. What are your thoughts on this?  ~Shuryard (talk) 19:55, 9 May 2015 (GMT)

The balance of probability came up favourably. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:23, 9 May 2015 (GMT)

Creatures Categorization[edit]

Hey Silencer! This line: [[Category:Online-Creatures-Bear| Bear]] allows us to place general page Online:Bear separately from all the individual bears in the category, on top of the list to be specific. Why do you think it is best to get rid of it?  ~Shuryard (talk) 18:47, 18 May 2015 (GMT)

Because it is not proper categorization for that page. Sorting like that is only for pages that relate to but are not exactly part of the category, such as Horses in the Horses category. The page is not about an individual horse, it is about all horses, whereas a page at Horse would not be sorted like that because you can encounter a 'horse' in the game, just like you can encounter a creature simply named 'bear'. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:52, 18 May 2015 (GMT)
That would be the case if Online:Bear contained info about generic bear creatures only, but it also has a list of unique bears. Take Online:Dog or Online:Guar pages, for instance, they also have a list of related quests. Since we do not separate Online:Dogs from Online:Dog, and the category description says "This category lists all of the individual dogs", I would say it would be better if the page is sorted separately. Let me post link to this discussion to CP and see if somebody else has something to say about it.  ~Shuryard (talk) 20:35, 18 May 2015 (GMT)
If an animal can be found it does not get sorted to the top. If only named versions of an animal can be found then becomes a species page which would not properly belong in the category (and in which case the summary box would be removed. I can find a Bear, therefore the Bear properly belongs to that category, alongside all the unique named ones and the variants (eg Black Bear). Just because the pages are currently lacking in information does not mean we categorize them badly.
PS. If you want to drag this 'discussion' beyond mere clarification, feel free to start a CP discussion, I don't want people coming to my page for it. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:00, 18 May 2015 (GMT)


Yes, it can be transcluded, but ever since I believe Oblivion, but at the very least Skyrim we have been repeating them on the page. Often the lore ones are different from the game ones, and, it prevents issues due to caching. More than that, every single ESO book has (or should have) the description on the page. For that reason alone I am reverting to re-add the description because it makes no sense to have every book but one have the description on the page. Every book should have it. Jeancey (talk) 20:48, 19 May 2015 (GMT)

'Often'? I have never observed one that is different so that's some claim, not to mention that allowing different descriptions is just begging for inconsistencies on the wiki. Preventing issues with caching is not an excuse, seeing as we don't attempt that anywhere else. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:57, 19 May 2015 (GMT)
It happens quite a bit with books from previous games, as many are split into separate parts, or have had sections removed. The main argument is that to change one, you'd have to change hundreds, and having the description on the page doesn't really hurt anything. Jeancey (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2015 (GMT)
Split books are not the same as the full book so of course they can and likely will have different descriptions, identical books on the other hand have no reason (besides time eg now/then) to have different descriptions. The argument that one page is wrong so they should all be wrong is one of the worst excuses offered, if it means editing 500 pages to correct them I'm sure you'd be the first to do it to increase your edit count. I much preferred the time people found reasons to do productive things rather than found excuses not to. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:47, 19 May 2015 (GMT)
Let's take a step back here before this gets out of hand. I don't want this to become another instance of something that gets cited as a reason for another block, so let's please not be too accusatory in our responses. Zul do onikaanLaan tinvaak 22:06, 19 May 2015 (GMT)
Why don't you take a step back, your involvement is nether desired or warranted. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:09, 19 May 2015 (GMT)


Um, thanks for correcting my spelling... I didn't know if it was correct or not. But I see you have corrected it thank you. :) — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 00:57 on 3 June 2015

On Tribunal:Dark Brotherhood? Yes, I changed it back. It was an awkward sentence though so WoahBro edited it to clear up the meaning. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:02, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Mjoll the lioness[edit]

I noticed you did an undo on my addition of a hunting bow as default equipment for Mjoll. Your reason was "not by the data". What does that mean? Mjoll clearly uses a hunting bow in the game. Can you explain why you removed that edit? Luke1138 (talk) 05:41, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

She might be using a bow in your game, but by default, she doesn't own a bow at all. I've verified this in my own game, as well as in the Creation Kit. If she has one in your game, it's either a fluke (somehow she picked one up at some point?) or a mod has added it. Robin Hood  (talk) 06:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
If I recall, don't several followers default to the Hunting Bow, despite it not being in their inventory? I'm sure I have had followers with empty inventories, but when a dragon attacks, they pull out that bow (Xbox). I understand the Giant's Club doesnt actually show in a followers inventory if they pick it up. Same goes for their default armor. Could the bow be an invisible item? --Jimeee (talk) 18:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
You nailed it, Jimeee! When someone becomes a follower, they have a hunting bow added to their inventory. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
I think it's part of a script, to add a hunting bow to a follower. Either way, it's not notewhorty because it's default for all followers. ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 19:36, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Ah, so I wasn't going crazy! Yeah, some mention is probably more appropriate for the Skyrim:Followers page. --Jimeee (talk) 20:00, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Dwarf: it's actually added directly to the alias in the DialogueFollower quest as part of their equipment, so no script is involved.
Jimeee: Done. I'd already added it before catching up on this chain and finding the recommendation to add it. :) Robin Hood  (talk) 20:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Blocked (3)[edit]

Stop X.svg This account has been blocked from editing UESPWiki for one year for persistent abuse of other editors. Personal attacks (such as templating the regulars, sarcastic remarks, unfounded accusations, inflammatory remarks, insults, and general outbursts) are grounds for an immediate block. No change in attitude has been shown since your previous block, and your contributions have become disruptive to the site. —Legoless (talk) 23:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

"Non Book"-template[edit]

Hey Silencer, is the "Non Book"-template a recommended way for providing notes on book pages? For example here - Resolutes of Stendarr Note. I'll start using it then instead of making new paragraphs. There are several books with inconsistent names (or other information that I want to include on the page as a side note). Tib (talk) 00:48, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it removes the notes from appearing to be part of the text. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:05, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
Ok, ty! Tib (talk) 00:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
Don't forget the dashes ---- to make a line to separate the note. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:53, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Empty Pages[edit]

Regarding this edit (and similar); is it not the case that a page remains to be considered "empty" if it has no content outside of a template? That is, I thought a page must have at least an opening sentence for it to be considered non-empty. --Enodoc (talk) 16:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

If it contains content it isn't empty. I would consider the skill descriptions to be content regardless of their placement in a template, and there are other templates to use if it is missing content, including the stub template. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:27, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Fair enough, thanks! I was of the opinion that anything in a template didn't count as content. --Enodoc (talk) 21:21, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

The "mistakenly added" book/crafting motif collections, a question[edit]

From Dromothra Style page, "This collection has been mistakenly added to the library, the books are not yet available in the game." - Hasn't ZOS been doing that since Thieves Guild though (or even Orsinium?) It seems they are preparing several crafting motifs and plan ahead when these are pushed out. In which case I wonder whether it is a mistake or something deliberate, that the collections have placeholders like this? Tib (talk) 10:22, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

I haven't been paying attention to thinks like that, but it would seem to be a mistake to reveal the content on the main game (not PTS) before release as it ruins the surprise. And though the other two sets Ebony and Ra Gada had specific chapters named, Dromothra wasn't even fully formed, and as you've pointed put, not even spelt correctly in the Library. If it is determined not to be a mistake about revealing the info, a message about its unavailability is a must to let people know they'll have to wait to complete it. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:31, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree that a note should be there informing that these collections are not available yet :) But I doubt it's a mistake that they're adding these collections before actual release. (Dromothra was just example btw, misspelling is another issue, likely ZOS sloppiness) Tib (talk) 11:28, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
In this user's humble opinion, appearance means availability. If the books are in the library, why not add the styles to the crafting stations, I'd like to think if they have the wherewithal and ability to suppress the crafting station (assuming its available for testing on the PTS) they can do it with the library. We should keep an eye out on the next patch to see if the new styles are added to the library before the DLC is available. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:51, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
We haven't been very diligent in the past with updating the Eidetic Memory in the past so I have no idea how long they've been doing this, but I agree with having a collection page if the list is currently visible on live. We'll need it eventually anyway so no harm done. —Legoless (talk) 12:01, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
No-ones talking about removing the collection pages, seeing as I created them, what we're discussing is the notice that says they were 'mistakenly' added to the library. The question being if it was a mistake or not. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 12:08, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Ah. Certainly seems like a mistake to be adding lists for unavailable books to live, so I'd agree with the notice. —Legoless (talk) 12:28, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

() For me a mistake is something unintended, but well. We seem to agree about that having a note is appropriate, and that the collection pages are fine to have, so it's okay for me to have this wording. I partly asked because I wondered if ZOS had maybe admitted some mistake, which they sometimes do on PTS forums, etc. Tib (talk) 17:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Want Some Cheap and Easy Edits?[edit]

I'm currently working on the ESL card upload, since we have to do that manually. A few new ones are popping up, and some with new designs. I'll try to call those ones out in the description, and I'd be fine if you wanted to swoop in and get the edit out of the way while I'm doing the file uploads. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 21:55, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand what you want me to do, what edits need made? Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:02, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm uploading images for Legends cards. Some of the ones I am uploading are new cards, and some have new art. If you were to create the page for the new ones, you would save me the work of going back and doing the same, so it doesn't mess with the rhythm I have going right now. If you don't want to, that's fine, I'll get to it eventually. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 22:07, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Right, new cards without pages, I can do that. I thought you were talking about descriptions like image descriptions so I was lost. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry about that...[edit]

Looks like we both had the same idea at the same time, to start creating those categories... — TheRealLurlock (talk) 23:55, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

No problem, I was poking my nose in to seem useful, thought I'd clear up some of the redlinks while there was attention on those pages. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:57, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Passive Skills[edit]

Great job with all the icon moves for the passive skills. I'd forgotten that that was even an issue, so didn't think to follow-up with the bot. Now I don't have to! :) Robin Hood  (talk) 04:00, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Those came from TRLs skill moves at the start of the month, not from hotbotties updates. Though there were two duplicate pages created, or rather one duplicate and one correctly named page created because the old name hadn't been moved. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:42, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Oh, okay. I know the bot altered or added some icon names as well, so I figured those moves were just from that. The one for Combustion was just out-of-date info in the bot. I couldn't fix it last night while the bot was busy, but I just did now. As for duplicates, if you mean Conditioning, Gift of Magnus, or Stealthy, I'm aware of those issues and am discussing them with Dave. If it was something else, can you point me to it, please? Thanks! Robin Hood  (talk) 18:44, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Keen Eye: Rune Stones/Runestones, I've marked it for a merge, and after a long search in the older edits I finally found the very recent Combustion overlap dealt with. Edit: And maybe if I'd read your whole comment properly I wouldn't have wasted 20 minutes. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:15, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Ah, good catch! I double-checked, and it's been spelled as two words as far back as I could find, and all but one of our links used two words as well, so since you'd merged them already, I just clobbered the bot's version with the merged version and left a redirect (at least for now, so people can see what was done...that can probably be deleted in due time). Robin Hood  (talk) 19:58, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

() I just did a dry re-run to see if I've fixed the issue with the overlapping racial skills, and as a result, I caught a number of other corrections you'd made after the bot run. Most of those are now incorporated into the bot job, so they shouldn't happen again. I'm not sure what's going on with Shadow Barrier, though. I take it from your edit summary that the times in the game are all twice what the bot wanted them to be? (And on a side note, it looks like you made a number of corrections to the Active Skills bot run as well...I'll go over those later and see what I can do to avoid them in future runs.) Robin Hood  (talk) 21:37, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Those were influenced by the bonus I had, I don't know why Jeancey didn't revert that one. Unlike before bonuses now actively change the skills wording. If you mean the active skills numbers from the last patch, I wasn't aware of where the numbers were generated from, and an algebraic symbol seemed the best course to display a variable. I haven't really touched active skills as its quite hard to see all three wordings on console. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:55, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
As for the active skills, I hadn't even looked at the nature of the changes, I just saw a bunch of edits in your history when I was blanking on Shadow Barrier's name and went to remind myself what I was looking for. :) If you didn't actually change any of the active skills because of something the bot did wrong, I won't worry about it then. Robin Hood  (talk) 22:03, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Whoops. I missed one. I was in a little bit of a rush on the end. Sorry about that! Jeancey (talk) 22:48, 18 August 2016 (UTC)


Thank you for categorizing all those images.

Sorry about that :( Echo (talk) 02:45, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

No bother, though I was putting it off for while given the number. Finally got round to it. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 12:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)


Would you be opposed to me putting your name in to be autopatrolled? Even if you're not fully patrolling any more, I see no reason your edits should have to be manually checked off at this point. Zul do onikaanLaan tinvaak 18:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I would object. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:10, 18 September 2016 (UTC)


Little dispute here; I didn't write Miraak wasn't a Nord, but his name isn't really Nordic, it's in the Dragon language, I don't see the problem with noting that. Similar to how Brand-Shei is noted to be a Dunmer with an Argonian name. Also, if your response is "He's a Nord", why not mix Hevnoraak in there without noting it as different? Andiy (talk) 01:55, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

The name pages are for names given to NPCs or otherwise confirmed. Miraak is a Nord NPC, his dragon priest status is not the same as Hevnoraak's Dragon Priest NPC creature appearance. Brand-Shei is a Dunmer NPC but he was given an Argonian name by his adoptive parents, thus his 'otherwise confirmed' name is noted on the Argonian page but not the Dunmer page. If Miraak was treated the same his name should be moved to the dragon page and noted that he appeared as a Nord. However, there is no reason to do this as it is not a dragon name as the dragon priests typically only have one or two words not three incorporated. The use of another language for a name does not mean that the name itself is not stereotypically of that race. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:22, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
There are plenty of examples where names rather than the character are noted to be different but still put on the page, even on the Argonian page with J'Ram-Dar, or Irgola(redguard). Yeah if you treated Miraak the same way he wouldn't even be there, but he doesn't fit on the Dragon page either. It doesn't warrant moving him, it warrants a footnote, even if two-word Dragon names are in common use for Nords. It can only help to categorize between the two, similar to how Argonian Cyrodilic names are seperated from the classic Jel ones. Andiy (talk) 13:48, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
The difference with J'Ram-Dar is that there is nothing to confirm that the name is of Khajiit origin, therefore it cannot be placed on the Khajiit page. The difference between Cyrodilic and Jel Argonian names is that they usually have both, or else just a Jel name. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the dragon priest names are not typical Nord names, considering that the priests conversed with the dragons its hard not to assume that Nords took names from the language of their rulers in the same way a lot of real-world names have their origins in foreign languages. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:40, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
I take your point, but it's still worth noting that it has a meaning in the Dragon tongue, even if you assume that there was no stratification between Dragon and Atmoran naming(which I actually find harder to believe as Dragon Priests were the middlemen between the Dragon overlords and the humans). Wouldn't you agree? Andiy (talk) 15:33, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
Translation notes are on all the dragon priest pages. There really isn't the room on the name pages to list the origins of every name, even for just those we know of. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 16:48, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
All right, well thanks for the explanations, I'll leave it. Andiy (talk) 17:44, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Concurrence Removal[edit]

I get removing the fonts, even though I find it unnecessarily bureaucratic, I can abide by it. But here I see you have removed my comment as well. Is there something wrong with what I said, those two words? Why did you feel the need to silence what I said, especially when it’s simply an opinion on a Talk Page pertaining to a topic & not an actual Main Namespace change? I’m not vandalizing anything, just talking & asking questions & reporting the bugs I find for others. Are you a sysop here?
Kalarus (talk) 22:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

He moved your post down to a new topic because it would have been a necropost on the old topic otherwise. Your comment is still there :) Tib (talk) 22:46, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
I know he moved the Topic down, it was my bad for adding it at the top, but he still removed the comment on another section of that page. See here, line 11 which became line 8.
Kalarus (talk) 22:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Your edit fell squarely into the realm of necroposting. Topics more than 3 months, but usually more than 6 months, are deemed to be closed by wiki standards, and should only be added/reopened if you are adding something missing, answering a serious question that has been left unanswered, or to address a misrepresentation in the discussion that could lead to issues if left alone. Simply agreeing with something does not add anything to the discussion, and thats before mentioning that talk pages are for possible improvements to the article. Discussing the rights and wrongs of a topic is for the forums. And no, I'm not a sysop, I just happen to know an awful lot about wiki-standards and am probably one of the least bureaucratic people you will encounter, considering my adopted wiki-motto. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:03, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Ah, that makes sense. I totally get it now, I was just wanting for a solid reason for why my comment was removed. Is there a list of rules anywhere here? I’d like to look at them so that I don’t make such mistakes in the future.
Kalarus (talk) 23:15, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Help:Contents contains basic editing information at the top and our standards on layout and so forth at the bottom. UESPWiki:Policies and Guidelines has some basic standards and links to the most common guidelines, while Category:Policies and Guidelines should contain all applicable pages. I thought we had a page on necroposting, but it seems we don't, the wikipedia page generally applies then, which has a standard of anything over 90 days old cannot be reopened (obviously we ignore that to some degree). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Rift aspens[edit]

I edited the description of a image of the Rift on it's Skyrim page, to say "The Rift's aspen forests" instead of "The Rift's birch forests" which you quickly reverted. I want to clarify that the reason I made the edit is that they are listed by Bethesda themselves as aspens inside the Creation Kit. TreeAspenForest01, TreeAspenForest02, TreeAspenForest03 etc etc. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 04:38 on 4 December 2016‎

I didn't know that, I was going by appearance which to me seem more birch, but clearly they are meant to be aspen given the editor ids. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:18, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Thank you for fixing my uploaded images. I am new to editing. I will try to remember to place future map images in the correct category. I have still not learned the proper coding messages to add text information, but I will get there. Again, thank you. User:Dmdbd1970 22:57, 7 December 2016

No problem. You could also have uploaded the new Rihad image over the old one if it had been a png file. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:43, 7 December 2016 (UTC)


Just FYI, while I was doing other stuff to the {{Ribbon}} template, I noticed your attempt to right-align the images and added that functionality to the template (then promptly used it on the doc page). Just thought I'd mention it, since it affects the formatting of your user page (if only slightly). Robin Hood  (talk) 05:07, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Not having looked at my page in a while, I think they were centered or at least meant to be. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 13:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

April Fools[edit]

I did like your companion page, by the way. It was nice enough to convince me to make General:April Fools so that those past efforts can be found, at least. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 17:56, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

After reading the 'news' a number of ideas on expanding the joke came to me so I threw together a quick page. There was talk of a page for them the last time we did one, but no action was taken and they dropped off the radar. There was another April Fools quite a while ago (as in 10 years or more), where a banned user was nominated for Admin, but it was a bad joke playing on a user's self-confessed issues and is probably best left in the back-end of the archives rather than added to the page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:49, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

In case you were wondering[edit]

Just in case you're wondering why I deleted some of the user categories you prodded but not others, that was a total goof on my part. I'm not about to bring back the ones I accidentally deleted unless there's good reason, but I'll let the rest go through the normal Prod process as they should. Robin Hood  (talk) 18:49, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

I can't use the sandbox...[edit]

In the sandbox that you advised me equally appears the same warning trying to do big edits that I received in my own user page (I can't do big edits until I did another 10 edits elsewhere...)--Tamrié (talk) 21:20, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I didn't realise how new your account was. There is an additional required to the basic account verification which is 4 days. The 10 edits should count in userspace as far as I remember, meaning you are well past that requirement. The "big edits" filter prevents editing, but if you make smaller ones it should at most only ask confirmation or warn you, but you can make the edit by submitting the edit anyway. If there's any other problems let me know. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:38, 28 May 2017 (UTC)


Hi The Silencer, thanks to the useful indications as to use always capital letters in the "articles names".

In regard to locations listed in the article, I think that Daggerfall:Places page must be similar to other games "places" pages (what wasn't the case in the previous text). A list of every distinct "type" of place, links to regions, every important location, specially the settlements or links to other (existing) articles of interest in the "places" category, so exactly the same that other games examples. The article is still a WIP but I don't pretend to "list every place" as you said, in fact not even a 5% of Daggerfall locations will be include in the final version. The 100% of the +4000 "towns" are indeed already included in the Daggerfall regions specific articles, but I only pretend to include quest related places or other interesting/unique places in the case of homes, temples and dungeons sections while only capitals, other major walled cities (that are only a tiny percentage of total settlements, maybe 100 cities) and only some other special relevance towns, in the settlements section, so again exactly the same that in other games examples:

Skyrim:places, list more than 300 specific places, Oblivion:Places a similar number. Morrowind despite it has by far more places than Oblivion or Skyrim (more than 600 places and +400 individual buildings more, so more than 900 interiors, and even more, distinct interiors, counting multi-level dungeons...) but "only" list in Morrowind: Places less than 100 different places (only settlements and some few other locations, so less than a 10% of Morrowind places are listed) and provide links to other specific articles. In my current Daggerfall:Places edition are listed only less than 60 specific places (and the regions links). Considering the fact that Daggerfall has many more unique, pre-fixed, designed and handcrafted places (dubious in the "hadcrafted" part) that all other TES main series games + Onine, Redguard, Battlespire, etc, all together, the listing of similar amount of places than Skyrim, Oblivion, or even more, is fully justified. But I repeat, I only already include less places than other games examples and in the final version... maybe a similar number to Skyrim:Places will be include in places article, not much more.

In regard to Iliac Bay size section, I have two objections:

1. Is not information about Daggerfall places, but map/game world size calculations, wich isn't present in any other ":Places" article. Why must we include that kind of information in this Daggerfall:Places article, when is not included in any other similar article?

2. And most importantly: Is fan-made info (very good, relevant and interesting one, but still fan-made). Isn't possible to arrive to that info by developers declarations, game data info, manuals or using some exploring or editing programs.

In contrast, the totally available demographic info (because is a "easy to count" feature, and because Bethesda offer us construction set/creation kit doing even easier to count that that number, it's at this moment categoryzed as "general" which is basically wrong categorization (direct game info! not fanbase speculation, but totally objective and easily affordable game info, info that even is possible to count playing the games!...). The reason is basically that we lack of a proper category for "Elder Scrolls" info that is very, very different from fan-made art, speculations, studies, development teams, mods, etc. General: is totum revolutum category, don't you think?

But anyways if I understand the uesp working, fan-made info isn't included in specific games articles isn't it?--Tamrié (talk) 22:14, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I understand that it is a work in progress, but I had some concerns about the direction it was going in. Under Towns-Other large cities-High Rock you have 21 links to the same place, namely Anticlere#Service Locations, and a less concerning 3 links to Abibon-Gora#Service Locations above it. That amount of links to one place, if duplicated would be less than helpful, despite each one having a different displayed name. The pages should be useful and familiar to a Daggerfall player, even if that means not duplicating the likes of Oblivion and Skyrim Places pages. It would be more prudent to compare Daggerfall to Online/ESO when structuring pages. ESO NPCs and Books are devoid of inhabitants, where in Oblivion and Skyrim they list every NPC and every book. The ESO place page duplicates the first section of Skyrim's, but does not attempt to list all places, just the zones which would be the regions in Daggerfall. You do not have to follow that exactly, but it would be a better comparison than Skyrim.
The modspaces I talked about would be the exact right type of page for that information, but lacking them and lacking the support to create them, the information will have to stay in Daggerfall namespace. There are many "fan-made info" pages like this, including mods such as AndyFall that should not be in that namespace, but your page is technical information and more appropriate, if you compare it to Skyrim and it's mod pages Tes5Mod.
The general demographics page puts together all of the games known demographics, but each game has its own page within its namespace, linked at the top of the demographics page. The general namespace is somewhat of a dumping zone for pages we don't quite know where else to put, but that page has two better locations, Daggerfall or Tes2Mod (when it is eventually created). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:16, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
1. The Anticlere#Service Locations is a provisional solution because I don't know how to link directly to the specific city in the service location section in the mentioned region pages! In the regional pages (Anticlere, Dragontail Mountains, etc) you can check as every single settlement in these regions (the +3.000...) is listed with its shops, temples or guilds, if we could link directly to the specific city name position in the page (for example to Anticlere#Service Locations+"#Aldshire"? or some other code) all great stores or banks, guilds and temples hotspots in Daggerfall are referenced/linked without doing any new location page (I thought that adding some other 100 or more pages in other largest "service provider" locations similar to capitals pages could be useful for readers, with maps included... ) but at least the link to the services provided in regional pages could be a great step. Anyway wether or no we continue to have all these cities links in Daggerfall:Places or if we move all to "settlements" new page, I need some help anyways with the correct linking that must not to general "Service locations" sections but to the specific city position in these tables in every region article.
2. My model never was Skyrim/Oblivion complete lists, but Morrowind:Places example.
In the Online case, there are links to EVERY single location that exist, Do you knowed that? +3.500 "locations" (including buildings) are listed in different types, subtypes and sub-subtypes pages. In Morrowind model on the other hand, we have less than 100 locations linked in the main :Places page, but near all locations (not really, far less inclusive than Online, not single buildings pages, for example...) in different places types pages. ONline categorization is similar to Oblivion/Skyrim (include all) but as the places are many more the editors decide to do it with many sub-categories.
We have these two possible solutions for Daggerfall:Places, the Morrowind model or the Online model, I will put here the numbers so you can compare the really terrible situation in Daggerfall pages and compare with Morrowind/Online:
-Currently places listed in places category:
Morrowind: +600
Daggerfall 204
Online: 3775
-Currently places "types" listed in places main page:
Morrowind: 12-18
Daggerfall: 9... mostly added by me and whitout page yet.
Online: +50 sub-categories
-Currently specific locations listed in main :Places page:
Morrowind: Less than s 10% of places (specially settlements, because services and guilds) listed.
Online: No places listed in main :Places page, only types of locations, but ALL locations (+90% because is WIP, but near all) mentioned, linked, categorized or described in minor pages: near 4.000 places!
Daggerfall: About 0.4% of all locations listed. +60 places.
On the other hand, in Daggerfall region page for example we have already 400 different settlements listed (ALL in that region) in a simple regional page. So it's not something "new".
I prefer the Morrowind model for Daggerfall, so we could cite some important places (all the main quest related + 150-300 largest, most relevant or unique places, specially all the largest cities -for future adition of the maps!- 300 of 15.000... is not to much) and new subtypes categoriestoo with its own pages, but to include most important places only, not every single rock... as indeed Online category does.
What do you think?
3. I will love to help in a TES2mod category, but dude, the Daggerfall places (only the 2-3% more relevant in my model, only the 8% of all towns!!) aren't simply "mod" or hacking material. Not at all. To include information of the marvelous tools that I currently use (Daggerfall Modelling or Daggerfall Imaging from Daggerfall Workshop, far superior to the old Daggerfall explorer used here in UESP to include all Daggerfall capitals maps... so we can improve a lot the maps), or to include more detailed information about the two biggest Daggerfall "rewrite" projects, and specially the enormous possibilities of new modding with the DaggerfallUnity version could be great, but the Daggerfall:Places need a deep rewrite and to include far more information that the current in the Daggerfall: category, not in "Tes2mod" because has nothing to do with modding but it's basic information that UESP wiki lacks (and only in Daggerfall: case!).--Tamrié (talk) 03:28, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
The real solution is to make redirects for each linked page, but if they point to the same place it is still not going to be a solution to listing them all on the same page if it can be avoided. I assumed you would be making all the necessary sub-pages to list all locations like Online does. Online numbers are indeed boosted by certain rocks, but every map-marker gets a page. As you are probably aware I lack Daggerfall experience and am now running out of specific advice, but I am glad to know you are aware of the different layouts and styles that are adapted for the necessities of each game. The Mod spaces are not just for mods, they also include technical information, but I wasn't suggesting moving the places page there, just the Dimensions page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:45, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Patrolled edits?[edit]

Hey, I noticed that you didn't seem to have your edits patrolled (I just had to patrol one of your edits on a user's talkspace). After (admittedly hasty) research, I discovered that you're listed neither as a userpatroller, patroller, nor autopatrolled user. Given how frequently you post on the site, is there a reason for this? I know that you were successfully supported as an autopatrolled user a while ago, but don't know if anything's happened since then. gelza1Talk Cont 22:20, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Some of the above atrocities might give you some insight into the situation. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:35, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Black soul gems[edit]

Responding to your edit. It may be obvious to an experienced player that you can't use quest items in another quest, but is UESP only for experienced players? When I first played Oblivion, I got very frustrated on this quest wondering why my black soul gems were not accepted. I think someone else might too. Vlad the Imperial (talk) 13:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

It is not beyond any player to understand the concept of a quest item, ie, that item is only for one specific purpose, and that purpose is not an entirely unrelated quest that requires you leaving the middle of a quest, going past the person you are supposed to deliver the items to in order to leave. Unlike other wikis we trust in the intelligence of our readers and don't treat them like children. We also have a preference for only explaining what is possible, and only including impossibilities where something would be expected to be possible. Following this, you would not expect a quest item to work anywhere else, so the only inclusion of the appropriate page is that the soul gems can be used in enchanting, thus breaking the related quest. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:53, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
OK, well in that case it doesn't belong on the page for the Cheydenhal recommendation quest either. I'll make the change. Vlad the Imperial (talk) 15:55, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

367 Locations[edit]

Hi Silencer,

I edited the section on locations found in the 100% completion page, since it is not correct. If you look at the settlements list that it links to, there are only 30 settlements that can be visited that add to the location counter in-game. Also, there are only 7 inns that are not inside cities. Therefore the total location count should be 367. This has been confirmed by many people including who are doing a 100% completion speedrun of the game. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 19:34 on 24 July 2017

My net had a complete breakdown, only getting back online now when I was about to post my reply 6 hours ago. Well after a lot of counting you are right. Oddly the increase to 369 that I see added 1 to the settlements and forts count (not the inns). On my part I missed the fact that Weynon Priory is excluded from the count. When the count was actually put on the page originally (in 2009) it started as 50 forts and 8 inns. This tallies with the archived discussion on that page which shows that there are 421 fast-travel markers possible, with 40 as the extra daedric gates, and 14 already marked (or otherwise pre-marked) which equals 367 possible locations in one playthrough. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:26, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for the response and double checking my count! The runners were really worried about the last 2 locations so we were all going through the wiki and we discovered that the numbers of places didn't match the lists that were linked. I should have been more clear when I made the first edit. Also, it seems like the runners didn't find any other inconsistencies with that page, so otherwise it is accurate! It's really cool to finally have a verification of many of those lists/statistics. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 03:40 on 25 July 2017‎

Daggerfall leveling and skills link edit.[edit]

The link does not work on my mobile phone. The way the site parse is the link doesn't allow the page to load at all. I think a direct link would have been better as I just get a browser error that says that this site cannot be reached...

Chizmad (talk) 19:02, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

I think the problem is that the site automatically adds the "m." And the wikipedia site doesnt like it... Chizmad (talk) 19:07, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
The m is not added by our link, it comes from a check by the servers for the device asking for it, which means a link breaking must be a wikipedia issue. However, both links work fine for me, the normal one takes me to the normal page, the mobile link takes me to the mobile version. I don't get that last point, if the automatic addition of an m breaks the link, how does a manual addition, making both urls the same, make it work (which is still wikipedias problem as it is their servers adding it). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:01, 5 August 2017 (UTC)


Advice on Tribunal:Assassin requested at User talk:Darklocq#Dark Brotherhood Assassins. — Darklocq  ¢ 19:07, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I've run into a roadblock, and its name is mt_save_data; deets at the thread on my page. — Darklocq  ¢ 01:07, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Forsworn Conspiracy note[edit]

I added a note recently to The Forsworn Conspiracy article that you later removed, claiming that the information was redundant with both the main walkthrough portion and the "bugs" section. I disagree. The information, as far as I can tell, does not appear at all in the main walkthrough section, which merely states that you can resist arrest and that only going to jail will "advance" to the next quest. The point of the note was to make it clear what happens when you choose to resist arrest in the shrine and, most importantly, that it differs substantially from the usual consequences (new guards do not normally spawn simply as a result of resisting arrest). Additionally, the article currently does not make it even remotely clear that you *cannot* clear the crime you have been framed for using the standard methods that normally apply to removing bounties, which IMO is a highly notable feature of this quest that should be made clear on the quest page. Please reconsider your deletion of the note.

Shashakiro (talk) 07:16, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

The note you added is far too long to simply be clarification on what happens if you don't choose to go to jail, not that it is simply about that. One concession I'll make is that the article could state more forcibly that you should at that point accept going to jail, as anything else will likely screw up Markarth for the rest of your game, and I'll do that now. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:48, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
I don't know where you get the idea that game mechanics specific to a quest that are quite clearly NOT bugs should be completely absent from that quest's article. Resisting arrest is a perfectly valid choice that can be made in this quest, and the No One Escapes Cidnha Mine quest is completely optional. Unless you dispute the accuracy of my information, I cannot see how you can argue that the article is better off without it. Additionally, submitting to arrest later on always allows you to start No One Escapes Cidnha Mine, as the note made clear. The "screwing up Markarth" you describe is simply the consequence of the guards always trying to arrest you until you submit, which is a choice the player may wish to make. I will re-add the information to the main article if you wish, but I insist that it belongs in the article somewhere. Shashakiro (talk) 15:54, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
Yes, choosing to resist arrest is a "valid" option, but when it can create bugs not just with the next "optional" quest, but with many other Markarth quests, it is not an option that should be encouraged or even treated like it is "valid". The option should be documented, but discouraged so that people can avoid such bad bugs. With such bad bugs we have a responsibility to our readers to tell them not just what they can do, but also what they should do. This is why I added the part that you may not be able to come back later and start the next quest, which you inexplicably removed, despite it being a known and serious complication/bug of choosing to resist arrest, which you appear to think will cause no problems whatsoever. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 16:34, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
The intended behavior of the game is that you CAN come back and start the next quest after resisting arrest. If in certain circumstances you cannot, that is a bug, which should of course be documented. As for taking sides about what readers "should" do when presented with an in-game binary choice between two dialogue options, I strongly disagree. There are many ways to play the game, and going on a guard-slaughtering rampage instead of being a quest-completionist is certainly one of them. I will happily concede that a strong warning with "see bugs" is appropriate, so long as the information pertaining to resisting arrest remains in the article somewhere. Shashakiro (talk) 16:47, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
I was going to add that warning myself, but looking at the article again, it appears that not a single one of the bugs documented in the "bugs" section relates to the consequences of choosing to resist arrest at the shrine. As I have not experienced any bugs with resisting arrest myself (which I have done in each of my four playthroughs with no problems), I cannot add the warning in good faith. Perhaps you can add to the article the bugs you have experienced when taking this path, if you wish to reinstate the warning? Shashakiro (talk) 16:56, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Books Question[edit]

Hi there. Quick question - should all books be set out like the ones here? I.e the conten on lore page and added from there? Timeoin (talk) 21:09, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes, every book with a lore version should have the text on the lore page and transcluded to the game page. There are a number of templates to help with linking and the display of alternative text (where there is more than one game version). There are very few exceptions and they mainly concern those which have so much alternative text that they can almost be considered a different book, but they sometimes get a disambiguated lore page and are transcluded from there. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:42, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
Transcluded. That was the word my pre-coffee brain was searching for! But ok. Because theres quite a few not-transcluded. I can help fix them as I find them, if they should be transcluded. (It would also explain why links on books are supposed to be lore-links. Anyways... thank you!Timeoin (talk) 22:00, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
Every book that has a lore version should be, but not every book should have a lore version. Most of books I see that don't have a lore version are from the newest additions, because they should not have one created until they are released officially. The basis for having a lore version is to either appear in multiple games, or "contain lore information". An easy way to determine its "value" is if it will be used as a source on another lore page, though that isn't always the case, nor is it always the case that they contain useful information. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:02, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Guardian Trinity[edit]

Hi Silencer.

Only possible reason to keep the page is for the purposes of linking to it relevantly for Patch notes. I.e. they regularly refer to the Guardian Trinity in a few different patch notes, and as there are three, one cannot properly be linked to correctly? (Unsure if this justifies it or not. Just letting you know why it was created in first place). Timeoin (talk) 15:23, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

The patch notes don't need direct links in all cases. If a fix is in place for all three then we just need to note that on the three pages. The patch notes are so unwieldy and so full of misspellings I don't think its all that useful to be trying to link everything anyway. The notes also have less relevance given the nature of the game (i.e. can't play the game without it installed). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 15:32, 4 October 2017 (UTC)


Oooh. Ok. Didnt realise. Did Orsimer out of habit. Now I know, I wont do it again. Timeoin (talk) 00:34, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Broken links[edit]

The speedy deletion request you added to Morrowind:2920, Frostfall messed up a few links transcluded from lore pages. They are the navigation links at the bottom of Hearth Fire and Sun's Dusk, as well as the compilation page. I fixed several others within the Morrowind namespace and made sure the uppercase F was used on the display text.

I'm not sure if you were planning on going back and changing the transclusion code, so I left them alone. You could either undo the speedy deletion request or have more Nst templates. It's probably easier to keep the redirect since Frostfall with a lowercase f is the common spelling. —Dillonn241 (talk) 07:18, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

It is easier, but pointless given the range of tools we have available to avoid having so many redirects. The only pages that should exist in a namespace are those that appear in the game, and as Frostfall doesn't appear (to the best of my knowledge) it shouldn't exist. I tried to check all the ones I nominated last night, but I obviously missed those links. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 13:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Duplicate pages[edit]

Yeah, I've come across a few of those. For instance - is it necessary to have a page for Alanwe AND her soul? Timeoin (talk) 01:13, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

I was concerned with the set pages in that part, this is slightly different. That's the problem with bots though, her soul registers as a separate NPC and so got a page. Usually we have redirects for all names displayed in the game, but some NPC entries in the data are not NPCs (eg Welkynd Stone), and are made by mistake. Delete or redirect, you'd need to know when and how that "name" appears. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:33, 14 October 2017 (UTC)


People that appear in-game linking to mentioned-only characters (such as hirelings) is correct? Timeoin (talk) 20:55, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

People lists have always been categorized under people, it is the category that is wrong. We've never had a game where we have lots of pages for characters that don't appear, so this hasn't been a problem before. You can see that the same Oblivion and Skyrim categories are used for the list pages, not non-appearing characters. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:02, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Okay :) makes sense. I only change it because I saw it linking somewhere non-sensical. (As it currently is). (And yes, ESO has a few differences.) Timeoin (talk) 21:09, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
The lists are in effect sub pages of the people page, so it isn't strange to link them there. In the other games all named NPCs are listed on the people page, but some limit needs applied, which might be listing/linking all the subpages instead of displaying them. The mentioned only characters create a bit of a limbo, as the Characters category is used for pages about the players character. A bulky category under "Non-appearing NPCs/People" might have to be used. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:36, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Ive made it a Community Discussion.Timeoin (talk) 21:54, 21 October 2017 (UTC)


Thanks for fixing all the Desolate Mine disambigs. I had a feeling I'd forgotten something! Robin Hood  (talk) 19:50, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Well they can only be done after a move anyway. About half of the pages linking there already pointed to the "right" place already. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:06, 23 October 2017 (UTC)


I just copied them mostly as they were. They can probably be a little neater. Timeoin (talk) 11:52, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

No problem, but they should definitely be using the template. We can convert them over after you move them, it does take quite some time to do that. I'll lay off the "prompts" in the edit summaries though. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:59, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
No, no. You're right. Only reason I didn't was I suspected that there was missing characters, and was planning to add them in shortly. (Can still do so, so that's okay) Timeoin (talk) 12:19, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Apostrophe Italics[edit]

I saw that you reverted my change to the italicization of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion with an apostrophe s on it. However, the apostrophe s should not be italicized because the title of the game does not have it. If the game were called "The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion's", then we would put italics on the whole thing.

From a quick search, the top three articles argue in favor of this usage. I'll just link the top one from Stack Exchange. It's the entire reason I create this template, and Wikipedia has the same one. —Dillonn241 (talk) 23:14, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

I can't say anything other than that style is disgusting, honestly seeing those examples sent a shiver down my spine. Excluding the 's only draws peoples attention to it, as it immediately did mine when I opened the page and looked at what you had changed, totally negating the purpose of the stylistic formatting (italicising) on the text where it is implemented. Honestly I never realised this is how wikipedia do it as I rarely use it for reading articles, but we've always done things a little different in regards titles of works, but I don't like it and will argue against using it at is just stands out like a drawing pin to the eye. Totally off-topic, would you/could you create a template for a non-breaking space, it would be so helpful with a few templates like Nst when transcluding. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:07, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
I edited the template to add a small gap between the word and apostrophe as Wikipedia does. Maybe this will address your concern? I'm kind of surprised it's that big of a deal. The italics indicate what the title should be, so we italicize everything but the apostrophe s. I've seen several attempts to do this before but without the new template, the apostrophe is also italicized and it ends up looking odd. I must say I think italicizing the whole thing looks worse. Tell me what you think of it now with the gap. —Dillonn241 (talk) 00:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
I read the wikipedia page and it is almost a necessity to add that small gap so the italicised letters don't spill into the apostrophe, a large part of why it ends up looking so hard on the eye. It does look better with the gap, but not enough to convince me that it's better than including the 's in order the make the whole thing more readable. Just to clarify, I thought you had simply misplaced the italics when inserting the template, I didn't know this was your intention. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:37, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
So I take it you dislike the style, but you would not be completely against me reverting the page to how I intended? There are so few instances of italicized possessives on the wiki, which is why we never had the template. I think it's for the best if we choose by far the most common italicization method for these few rather than some custom style. —Dillonn241 (talk) 01:46, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Question: UOP[edit]

In reference to Unofficial Oblivion Patch, do you think it would be alright if I updated the current lists of changes? I obviously couldn't even see that the list of the lists was there in the first place, but I'm wondering if doing it incrementally would be alright. The concern being certain portions being out of date, and some not being, and some in between those two states. There is also a lot of weird and inconsistent formatting on all of them which is... irksome. Anyway, let me know when you can. Syvel (talk) 00:31, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

While there would be nothing inherently wrong with doing that, it will be a fruitless and near impossible task to try and keep those pages up-to-date. If they were in the style of the official patches (just a copy of the fix log listed under its version) then it would be feasible, but the current format doesn't support that, nor is it at all useful for tracing which version of the patch actually makes the fix. Another problem would be categorization of the bugs, which is negated by having the log written as is, and just putting the bugs on the affected/relevant Oblivion pages.
The pages were created when the patch was supposedly finished, which makes a certain amount of sense, but now they are active again the pages are more of an archive and an anachronism. The link above them is to the fix log posted by the the UOP people, which should be more than enough (it is for Skyrim). So no, as long as the patches are active, and the pages stay in the same format, I see no benefit to updating them with more unwieldy information, not to mention the time it would take to go through the last 9? years of updates and attempt to split them by type. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 03:40, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Ryain Direnni[edit]

I'm trying to find out if (s)he's the Ryan Direnni mentioned in "Once" :)

Also, sorry for not posting the right image - I didn't find it on full text search. I'm still feeling my way around the place. ~ manavortex 12:22, 14 January 2018 (UTC)


Oops. Nice catch! --Enodoc (talk) 22:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

It was strange, I typed "pledge" into the search box and it displayed "Online:Pledges", so I just speedied the one you created. I went to double-check the Online:Pledges page and it apparently didn't exist, requiring a rapid copy/paste to cover the absence. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Bjorn cave's name[edit]

Hi, sorry, I should have added this section BEFORE editing again the Bjorn's page. I'm sorry. Anyway, what I was trying to say is that many Bloodmoon's pages in this Wiki have notes about the fact that Solstheim's names come from north European languages (Norwegian, Danish, etc...). Bjorn is just another one. So, I don't see why that shouldn't be relevant while the others are. --Giant Lizard (talk) 22:24, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Relevance has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it translates to something in some random language, relevance is determined by what the translation is and the article. The best examples are some of the Companions in Skyrim, their names translate to various things related to wolves, which is relevant because of their lycanthropy. If the cave in question was occupied by bears instead of hags you would have your relevancy, but there is none, so it does not belong. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:10, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Some random language? Most of the names in Solstheim come from north european languages, it's not just "random", it's been a development choice. The bear is one of the animals you can find on Solstheim and one of the main symbols for vikings/nords, it seems pretty relevant, no? Besides, why Bjorn's name is not relevant and Rimhull, Solvjord, Fjell, Frykte and Isild River's names are? They seem all the same to me: north european words about things related to the cold, used for names. --Giant Lizard (talk) 22:33, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
Random is correct, because there is no link between the location and its translation. Etymologies are a contentious addition to any page, they need to show a reason to belong, having a translation is not enough. You seem to be completely missing the point that the relevancy is to the article it is placed on, not the generalization of the the entire addon that Bloodmoon/Solstheim/Nords are Vikings/Scandinavians.
Rimhull is an ice cave and translates as frost hole, I am sure even you can see how that is more relevant a translation than between a cave inhabited by hags and the word bear. Isild is at least partially relevant with its ice translation. Frykte has a valid yet subjective argument given that it translates as the idea Fear, for a cave full of dead and undead. Solvjord and Fjell appear to fail the relevancy test, so unless someone can make the arguments for those two, they should be removed.
If you want to read more, this is the most relevant discussion, as it determined the current policy towards etymologies, which is retro-active and enforced. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:35, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
Ok, thank you for your answer. I still disagree, because I think they are all interesting and relevant facts, but it's just my opinion and I know it's useless. Thank you anyway for your explanation. --Giant Lizard (talk) 00:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)


Apologies if I am formatting this incorrectly, I'm somewhat new here. I believe MK's comments are valid, and not "meaningless", this is the only hint Warhaft would have made an appearance in TES4, and it isn't one of his out-there ramblings either. He has access to the design documents and he's been at least in limited contact with the guys at BGS.

Thanks, have a good afternoon. --Username-72 (talk) 15:26, 04 March 2018 (UTC)

MK might retain a unique position in the world of the Elder Scrolls, but he has no special status when it comes to statements that he cannot prove. I don't see anything in those documents that prove his statement or even hint at its truthfulness. Just because he says something does not mean it is or was true, except for those games he was actually involved with as an employee, when he would have had access to sensitive material. Given all that, something being considered to be a part of a game when the game was in development is hardly noteworthy, especially for a game series' 9th game with so much lore to choose from. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:43, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the response, (I only added the tumblr link to show he had "some" access to the design docs and not to say "here's the proof") I do agree that it's a bit silly to argue for something so minor. I'm only asking because I'm curious about how I should approach this in the future, I mean if this is a minor tid-bit and not worth mentioning if there is not direct proof, then what would you say constitutes mentioning. Should we really disregard anything MK or another ex-dev says for "this" kind of thing (undeveloped content in this case), I don't know, maybe we could add some additional text that says it was written by an ex-developer and shouldn't be taken at face-value. I'm not an MK "fanboy" or something of the like either, I just think this is interesting information. --Username-72 (talk) 15:26, 04 March 2018 (UTC)
Anything by MK is treated the same as any other Out-of-Game source, in that it should really only be used to expand on an existing topic. "Interesting" "facts" found only in OOG are not notable here. Comments by ex-developers can be notable, where their comments can be shown to have truth, and they don't actually need to prove their own statements if someone else or even the game data can do it for them (in the case of the game proving their statement that would be "expanding on an existing topic"). Its impossible to say what is and what isn't notable, it can only really be judged on a case-by-case basis. If you're ever unsure if something is notable it can be better to ask on the talk page first, that way something has a better chance of sticking when/if it is added to the page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:43, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

"Normal animation behaviour"[edit]

I just saw you reverting me edit from Skyrim:Northwind Summit. I added them there because I never encountered them before and I did neither read inside the dragon article nor anywhere else of this bug. I do understand that it is out of place, but could you at least leave a reference like "Dragons are also affected by the [[Link-to-the-bug|behaviour bug]]" --EoD (talk) 02:09, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

The third note (in the notes section) on the Dragon page is about this. It is not a bug because it is deliberately scripted behaviour, and as it is not unique to any locations or affects the location itself, it doesn't get mentioned on those pages. There isn't anything about this that makes it more notable than any of the listed bugs or issues that affect dragons, and it should be obvious that any issues with dragons would be mentioned on the dragon page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:57, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
This note does not contain the information I posted. ---EoD (talk) 21:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Please, of course it doesn't contain the information you posted because it is a better written version of it that actually addresses the issue and its causes. The issue is extremely well known to those who have played Skyrim since it first came out, just because it is the first time you have noticed it does not make it special or different. Dragons that are killed when not on the ground will continue to fly around/sit on things until the animation kicks in for them to crash land. This can take quite a long time especially if you continue to attack it while it is on top of an object. Just like any other NPC or creature, dragons can be interrupted during their attacks. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:45, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Please read what I wrote once again. Even if my words are not the "best written version", I think I expressed clearly that the dragon got stuck before it was killed. Even if this is "well known", it might not be "well known" to everyone and hence should imho be mentioned in either article clearly. --EoD (talk) 14:55, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Reverting random changes[edit]

Please don't be ridiculous and revert everything. The change was part of my understanding of the Skyrim Quest Redesign Project. As far as I understand it says quite clearly that these kind of information belongs into the Notes section, as you can already see in Joining the Legion.

Continuous reverting changes without first contacting a person is first of all rude and second of all more destructive then constructive. Please take a look at the first line of Getting_Started and tell me that you also always welcome new contributors who are interested in helping to improve the site.

--EoD (talk) 21:50, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Bold, revert, discuss is a common method of editing a wiki, so Silencer wasn't out of line. That said, I think that's an important piece of information, and I think it's not a bad idea to repeat it in the Notes section. If it's your first time through the quest, it can be rather jarring to find out you suddenly failed some other quest, and making it easy to find would helpful. As it is, it's kind of buried in the rest of the article. Robin Hood  (talk) 22:09, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
If this is about Joining the Legion and Joining the Stormcloaks, while it's ostensibly logical, it's definitely worthy of being pointed out in the notes, and probably extracted from the walkthrough itself since it has no bearing on the active quest. --Enodoc (talk) 22:42, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
First of all, don't mislabel things to try and get people into trouble. My revert was not random, nor do I revert everything. It is neither rude nor destructive to revert before discussion, and your "offense" at my actions tells me everything I need to know about the type of editor you will be. The edit summary was quite clear why I reverted your edit, the information was already included in it so you were duplicating something because you clearly can not or did not read the article to see it, nor did you bother to check the edit summary to find out if a reason had been left for the revert because you fail to mention it at all in your reply. While the information is "important", it is not important enough to warrant highlighting given it is not the last point at which you can join either side.
PS: Joining the Legion is hardly the best example for why the note should remain, given that it does not include the information in the article. If you really want to make a lasting contribution without me randomly reverting it for no good reason, maybe you should try to bring the Stormcloak version up to the standard of the Legion page, rather than just duplicating the article in the notes section. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:33, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
I think Enodoc's suggestion and reasoning are correct, so I've gone ahead and moved the text down to a note.
Also, can the two of you watch your tone, please. There's no need for hostility over a few edits that are easily done or undone. Robin Hood  (talk) 04:05, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Don't tell me to watch my tone when all I did was defend myself against accusations that were not true or accurate. If EoD did not want to have those accusations ripped apart piece-by-piece with no mercy then they should not have been made in such a reckless manner. If EoD cared to have a sensible discussion then my talk page shows that I am more than open to it, if I had been approached in such a way. It doesn't help when senior editors give misleading information about the placement of information, though I ignored it in my reply while also explaining why it isn't even that important a note (to have it mentioned twice). Not only that, but it should be entirely obvious that joining one side would fail the option to join the other, it is only because it is an actual quest that it gets mentioned. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:46, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

System Requirements[edit]

Good idea turning System Requirements into a redirect! I hadn't thought of that as an option. —Dillonn241 (talk) 16:37, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

It's not the first time someone proposed it for deletion (see its talk page), but at that time it wasn't on any other page so the page stayed as it was. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:21, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Nst/Lore Link Edit[edit]

Thanks for this edit. Right now, the bot's only picking up Lore Links with embedded Nsts, but I'll do Nsts with embedded Lore Links after. If you notice any others, though, feel free to edit them before the bot and I get there. The more you do, the fewer I have to worry about, and today, I think that's probably a good thing, considering the mess I made of those edits! :-/ Robin Hood  (talk) 22:59, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

You may have surmised from my edit summary that I was trying to fix the link the bot made into an Online one back to a Skyrim one, the other just caught my eye. The bot would only have changed it where it was anyway, when it should have been earlier at the first instance of her name. I also wanted to test if the link method would work when the lore link was originally inside the Nst. There are some links on that page that use the ifnamespace magic word, but I couldn't see any easy way to make them use Lore Link. There's no chance of me doing more without knowing where they are, unless you want to run the bot to dump them in a sandbox. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:31, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I think the SR/ON issue was entirely my fault. The bot's doing a lot more of the heavy lifting now, so there shouldn't be any more mistakes like that. As you point out, the bot certainly wouldn't have spotted that there was an earlier possibility for the link, though. The Lore Link inside Nst will probably only apply to a few. Once I'm done this, I'll get a list to decide if I want to handle those on my own or let the bot do it. Given the range of possibilities there, I suspect I may be doing those on full manual once I have the list. I can't provide you a list right now without interrupting the bot, and there's probably no point in me doing so afterwards, because at that point, it'll really just be one or the other of us doing the same work. Robin Hood  (talk) 00:23, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
A bit late, but I finally clued in that I was altering display values in some cases. That should no longer happen once I resume updating. Thank you for being more on the ball than I am today! Robin Hood  (talk) 02:38, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
And just to follow up on the Nst/Lore Link combo, I searched the Nst template calls and found plenty of Lore Links as part of other text, but only about two or three were actually convertible to plain Lore Links. I took care of them. Robin Hood  (talk) 08:05, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Lies By FioFioFio[edit]

I refuse to allow lies about me go visibly unresponded to. FioFioFio made some false allegations about me in this post on his talk page. My response calling him out on his false accusations and absolutely baseless assertions was removed and the page locked from editing. This is my response that is apparently so offensive it requires an admin step in and call it an "edit war" (even though no part of the "discussion" came anywhere close to that policy). Clearly telling a Patroller to actually watch recent changes so they can do their job is just too much for people to handle. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:42, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

You posted to her talk page after being asked to stop. That's simply in violation of good etiquette. While it may not constitute an edit war in the traditional sense, it is one in the sense that you were asked to stop posting and didn't. Toxic posts like these are not helpful. Take a breath. Go find something else to do for a bit, and come back when you can approach this issue in a more calm and constructive manner. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:53, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Either "she" takes back her baseless accusations or I get to respond to them. You don't say "stop talking to me" and throw insults in with it and expect not to get a response. Having an admin basically take "her" side by allowing those claims to stand without contention is just as insulting. Why don't you have a go at "her" for making those claims and insults instead of me for trying to defend myself, or should I not expect any less considering she is a patroller, and I am, as I always have been, me. I don't intend to resume this issue unless Fio makes more baseless accusations. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I didn't take anyone's side (see "The Wrong Version"), I simply paused the conversation entirely for 6 hours to give both of you time to calm down. She can't post to her own talk page either, given that it's fully protected. Also, don't assume that nobody's spoken with her. The tone of her responses was mentioned on Discord, which you may not have seen, but they happened nevertheless. Robin Hood  (talk) 20:17, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Lore Links[edit]

Oh, awesome! That does indeed make things a lot less complicated. (things then point where they should) Timeoin (talk) 23:35, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Guard Dialogue[edit]

Hey, Silencer!

Regarding this [[2]] edit, my extremely rusty wiki skills failed to allow me to check whether or not it was correct. What method did you use to decide it was correct before? --Xyzzy Talk 19:58, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Mostly just gameplay. I never bother with pickpocket until I need the extra pockets perk, but that line is commonly spouted by the guards cause I'm always sneaking about. The definitive answer can't be found on the cs, but it should be discernible on the CK. Because of that I can really only say that pickpocket at level 30 is not the trigger. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:52, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Gah! I had forgotten how complex the CK is. Trying to figure out how to dig through it to verify the dialogue trigger is more than I'm able to do quickly. Thanks for the reply. --Xyzzy Talk 23:12, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I took the coward's way and used "setav" to test it. Looks like it's Pickpocket, and not Sneak, that triggers this dialogue. I reverted back to the earlier version. --Xyzzy Talk 11:36, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Just to confirm, it is indeed Pickpocket, according to the CK. @Xyzzy: Easiest way to get to it in the CK is to use the text search to find "I know your kind", then double-click on the line that pops up. In the window that opens, the correct line is highlighted (though it's easy to miss, being light-gray on white...dunno if that follows the Windows colour scheme, though). Double-click on the line, and the conditions are listed. First one is Pickpocket >= 30. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:28, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Well, that was ridiculously easy. Thanks, RH! --Xyzzy Talk 04:10, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Template stuff, from a while back[edit]

Wondered if you'd thought any more about what you said here at "I was thiking ...". I've been off-site for a while, but haven't forgotten or abandoned this stuff. Got sucked into Oblivion, then some Blockchain thing, then some Linux work, then Wikipedia, cycling back around to TES a bit; I have a mod I wanted to finish and release on Nexus, and it joggled me to check my talk here and look for open stuff. — Darklocq  ¢ 00:56, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

I mostly just have ideas for templates and tweaks, but let others do the coding as I wouldn't have a clue how to adapt or write one. If we look at SR:Bandit and any of the redirects for different named bandits such as Bandit Thug, all those categories are manually added to the page. If we could make a template it would make making and editing those pages much simpler instead of writing out all 9 race categories, 9 race-male categories, 6 (on that page) race-female categories, they could be auto-generated the same way the Non-relevant NPC template does. There are 39 categories on the Bandit Thug redirect, only one of which would not be generated by the template as I envisage it, and even that one could as I don't think there are any that don't come under "Redirects to Broader Subjects". Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 16:31, 28 July 2018 (UTC)


So, on what basis are you claiming that this material is "unsubstantiated"? It's all directly from Oblivion, and you've restored a bunch of stuff that now conflicts with what the game actually says. In particular, a problem here is that various in-game books are being treated as accurate, when it's an point of the gameplay that they're dubious, and the game provides contrary evidence as you play it. Maybe I'm simply not integrating the material properly. I mostly work on walkthrough information and spend little time in the Lore namespace, so it's not clear what standards are applying there. I do note that this namespace seems to cite stuff from that Imperial LIbrary site which as a lot of apocryphal material that devs wrote which was never integrated into the game, and thus is less reliable than the in-game data. — Darklocq  ¢ 03:00, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

PS: I previously addressed this in some detail at the Community Portal, though it was in mid-thread on the lore-sourcing overhaul topic. Here's a direct anchor-link to the relevant material. The most important bit is that the idea that Severa Magia is a "local" Night Mother (leading to the original research that there must be more of them operating simultaneously, which directly contradicts all in-game and other official and quasi-official information about the DB) is found only in one place: in the player character's own voice in the Journal, at a point during which a) the PC has no knowledge of the DB other than what very little (s)he has been told by someone from the Morag Tong, and b) hasn't even run into any of the DB yet, much less gotten any information from any of them first-hand. It is hardly the only time that the player journal entries record an assumption in the player's head only to have it not turn out true later. Every quest that involves a betrayal/trick, for example, has this feature. The player character is not omniscient and is an unreliable source when confronted with better ones. Same goes for in-game works of fiction and quasi-fiction the intent of which is that they taken with a grain of salt, such as the alleged and possibly forged "interview" with an early Night Mother who claims to have founded the DB, but which conflicts with other in-game materials about the DB's origin and the nature of the first NM. We can't cherry-pick sources, but have to take them as a totality and work out where they are in conflict with each other and what those conflicts mean, given the context of each source (or not-really-source like PC's own in-game assumptions). — Darklocq  ¢ 11:39, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
You can't contradict something using sources that have absolutely no mention of the thing you are contradicting. There is absolutely nothing anywhere that directly contradicts the situation in the Morrowind game as being wrong. [Edit] While there is nothing that directly contradicts it, we do know it is "wrong" in the sense that she isn't the Night Mother. If you take this to the talk page of the lore article for the Dark Brotherhood and can provide some other cases where the "player voice" is shown to be unreliable (I don't know Morrowind well enough to know any), and it is accepted there that the source is unreliable, it can be excluded from the lore page. However it cannot be removed from Morrowind pages as that game information exists in its own "bubble" and will always be correct within that bubble. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 16:02, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Whoa, slow your roll there![edit]

Do not just delete useful content without a discussion.

You deleted EVERYTHING about getting around the PSVR Cidhna mine bug...but the delete/reinstall is a definite fix, and the bit about the Orc guard IS the vanilla game, there's NO mod ability on PSVR (a platform you apparently know 0 about), I just made a simple typo for god's's an Orc woman talking to you, not an Orc guard. A simple edit can fix that, not abolishing all the useful information.

As for Braith, yes, the icon is only during a quest, and it can happen to any where in the wiki should the information go, that a person you need for a quest may be locked away? Because it's freaking confusing for new players that they're wandering and wandering and can't figure-out why a needed NPC isn't where they're supposed to be.

Got any explanation before I add it all back in? Amusedt (talk) 18:52, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps the bit about locked-up NPCs belongs in Skyrim:Bugs --Amusedt (talk) 19:06, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, don't blame others for your mistakes, and don't get hostile when you can use nice words to explain how your error led to this. The wording suggested to me that the Orc was one of the three generic guards you submit to (there are no non-men (Nord, Imperial, Breton, Imperial) generic guards anywhere in Skyrim), especially the part where you had to identify her by her race [edit:] when the person you are apparently referring to is named. What she looks like doesn't matter either. Legoless has identified this mystery woman as Urzoga, and killing her is known to break the quest by stopping you from being able to escape the prison, so suggesting killing her as a solution is a terrible idea and only encourages further bugs down the line.
For Braith, first of all, you should identify which house she was in, that can help others actually see if there is a specific reason or cause for her to be there in the first place. The suspicion here, seeing as it hasn't been encountered with her before, is that it is due to her following you into a house due to another well-known bug. There is no reason for her to be in any house other than her own otherwise. The information is not useful anywhere if she could be anywhere, but would be useful on the quest page if this is in fact a real replicatable bug. The bug as understood is already listed on the glitches page, as the sixth main bullet point under NPC dialogue. It is one of those bugs that is so common that you cannot play a game and not encounter it at some point.
Finally, you can't confirm your own bugs, which is defined as bugs you add to the page that have had no prior confirmation anywhere else on the wiki that you can point to as the reason you are adding the confirmation. Just because someone somewhere else on the internet reported it doesn't make it confirmed here. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:34, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
The automated anti-spam system means I'm going to have to break my reply into multiple edits.
If you'd like to treat new editors badly, make assumptions, and clumsily stomp all over stuff that you know nothing about, don't be surprised when they dislike it. You should stop trying to silence people, and learn some silence yourself. And just what in there was a nasty word, in your expert opinion?
If you have knowledge, which you clearly didn't in this situation, you can delete or improve something, but if you know nothing about it...and you didn't...then educate yourself before stomping all over it.
Killing the Orc has apparently worked (I haven't tried it), and it's the only work-around to try for PSVR people who purchased the game digitally. They are unable to install an un-patched version, since they don't have an old game disk. Amusedt (talk) 20:48, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
>For Braith, first of all, you should identify which house she was in
Perhaps I will figure that out. Regardless, I will document bugs to whatever level of specificity I feel like getting into. If others want to investigate a bug report, or ask questions, then they can contribute to the bug documentation if they feel like.
>it is due to her following you into a house due to another well-known bug.
Of course I know that bug. While she did end up in a house I had been in, I had not initiated any conversation with her, nor had I started the quest yet, and I didn't hear any conversation from her while in there. It's possible she had been talking at me while I was outside, and I hadn't noticed, and her words finished outside, so I heard nothing from her inside. Although I'm nearly certain I went in late, when Braith should not have been on the streets.
Reply continued in next edit, to avoid triggering the anti-spam filter Amusedt (talk) 20:53, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
I know no one was in the initial rooms of the house as I began exploring. I only recall eventually seeing the appropriate occupants inside (mother & child). But perhaps Braith teleported deep into the house, and I mistook Braith for being the appropriate child.
Even if that bug is why she was inside...and it might or might not be...the bug is insufficiently documented. No new player is going to magically figure out that "follow in" might equal "stuck, locked-in, can't get out, can't complete quest started hours later". Perhaps that page needs another category about "Missing/stuck NPCs", so people understand how to further an affected quest.
>The information is not useful anywhere if she could be anywhere
The information is critical, if she's not on the street, and never in her own house, then it's critical to know she could be locked away somewhere else (and she was), and that the quest icon can help you find her (and it can), and that you are going to have to break the NPC out. It wasn't until Google revealed about NPCs getting locked-in that I figured-out I had to break in to a stranger's house to let her out. Amusedt (talk) 20:54, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
killing her is known to break the quest by stopping you from being able to escape the prison, so suggesting killing her as a solution is a terrible idea and only encourages further bugs down the line.
Again, PSVR is a different build, different bugs. Perhaps some of the Unofficial Patch, which fixes the Urzoga bug, is built in. What I heard so far is that killing her works, and that it's the only solution for digital PSVR purchasers. It's a terrible idea to say that killing her is a terrible idea, when you have no idea. I don't plan to test it myself, but I'm keeping an eye out for further reports about how well it works.
And "Orc guard" WAS a very appropriate way to refer to Urzoga. She IS an Orc guard. A mercenary paid to be a guard. --Amusedt (talk) 17:50, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I apologize for your inability to read my posts, I will try harder. I never said you used nasty words, I said hostile. You are the one who came charging at me for daring to do exactly what you did, edit a page. I only ever respond in the same manner someone talks to me. Had you been calm and explained where I was wrong instead of screaming at me, I would have explained why I did what I did in the same manner. You also asked me for some advice, which you should never ask unless you can at least accept constructive criticism. I read what you wrote, and because you wrote it badly any subsequent edits due to that incorrect wording are entirely your responsibility. You didn't read what I wrote, and while I didn't say it in the edit summary, I did say above generic Orc guards. Everything you've written about Urzoga is irrelevant to that fact. PSVR Skyrim is not an entirely new build, it uses code from vanilla Skyrim, therefore bugs in Skyrim have a very good chance of appearing in the game. A very good way to check this fact is to select a bug that will always happen (such as Mirmulnir's absent voice, or any of the relevant bugs in Blood on the Ice). Of course some things are different, but they did not rewrite the entire game, and they 100% did not include a single line of code or any bug fixes from the USKP. Any bugs fixed by an official patch or included in another release that are also fixed by the USKP are entirely coincidental. My wording (terrible idea) in the talk pages might be a little over the top, but it is irresponsible to advocate a solution without mentioning the already known "potential" consequences of that "solution". I never said it was inappropriate to describe Urzoga, I only mentioned that using race to identify a person would lead someone to conclude that they didn't have a name you could use instead, which would eliminate any confusion (and why do you continue to identify her by her race and not her name?). In that case telling people to check what the guard looked like before reloading was again irrelevant, as Urzoga will only ever have one look and one race, and reloading depending on that factor is utterly pointless and confusing as a factor.
Adding common bugs to pages happens quite a lot, and if you knew about the "other" bug you should have attempted to differentiate the two. Adding a bug that appears exactly the same as the other bug can only lead someone to conclude that you are talking about the other bug. If she can be "anywhere", then a note saying "if you can't find her, she could be anywhere" is not going to be helpful on any level, that is why you need to be specific. Talk all you want about insufficient coverage, all I said was that it was and where it was listed. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence

World Eater's Eyrie[edit]

Nice pruning. Every time I see a notes section I see it like a weed sprouting up in a garden, something to kill mercilessly. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 21:46, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Merciless death is too good for it. Potentially endless lists like that are usually pointless and end up being more confusing than helpful, its not as if the two quests are all that long anyway or have much loot unless you take absolutely everything. At least the other endless list has a proper reason for being there (powerful staff, unique mask). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:47, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Inquiry about Oblivion Houses Redesign Project[edit]

On the Oblivion Houses Redesign Project both of the project leaders names are stricken through, yours included. The other's user page says simply: Retired. What do the strike-outs mean? Is the project still active? Is it in need of a leader? Who does the checking? Who removes the rewrite notice? It would seem that there are still 202 houses yet to be done and not much progress since 2015, or maybe I'm missing something. I just don't know, so any information would be appreciated.

Thanks, Kalevala (talk) 16:24, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

The other leader is indeed retired. My name was stricken through during the time of the "issues" you can see above, when I was unable to edit, and I haven't felt inclined to be as helpful to other people since. I am still here though, and continue to monitor things as I've always done. The rewrite notice disappears once the parameters are both filled in. The project is more in need of active writers than someone to do the final check at this time. If you want to take a leadership role in the project, I'm not sure of any procedure besides an active leader adding someone, so if you have some examples of pages you have written I will have a look and then decide. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:12, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
Well you've been very helpful indeed. My worst fear was that the project had been declared extinct, and that further effort on it would be a waste of time. I wrote the table of Residents, the Notes, and the text for all but the very first part (describing its location and names of cells) of Summitmist Manor. I also rewrote much of the text for the Heinrich Oaken-Hull House which had combined two bookcases into one downstairs and omitted a chest upstairs. My biggest problem in doing these was determining the extent of detail. There seems to be no rubric offered on the project page for the degree of detail. As to my leadership, I would prefer just to write descriptions and when I feel a page is ready, submit it here. I am not very good at corralling volunteers or assuaging the egos of those whose work may require vigorous editing. Kalevala (talk) 22:39, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
No project will die. Existing incomplete projects that have no active leaders can be taken over. The level of detail depends on the location's size, and most house pages would not suffer by including everything. However, that isn't necessary, you can generalize the pure clutter like cutlery. What might be deemed interesting or useful changes per game, eg, in Skyrim food items are useful for cooking, but in Oblivion they are mostly just for eating. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:23, 24 October 2018 (UTC)


Hi Silencer,

I just wanted to say that Aethelweald is indeed a Redguard last name, it's just that there's no way to directly source it, as far as I know. In Oblivion, Jaren's son, Lord Kelvyn is a Redguard, and their relationship is referenced in this, but it only says the last name in the Knightfall book which doesn't reference the race. If you can, could you put it back up. Thank you. --Vincentius1 (talk) 19:28, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

What makes you think that the two Jaren's are the same, I see no link beyond both stories involving a Jaren and a Garridan. However, these are completely different circumstances. Jaren Aethelweald serves Garridan Stalrous, his lord, who dies while Jaren is still in his service. Lord Jaren refers to Garridan as his friend. Lords don't refer to other Lords as their master, nor are they under their service. They might follow them, but they are not bound to them except by choice. I see the Garridan Stalrous lore page assumes that they are the same, so I'd like to take this discussion there. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:00, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Fame page[edit]

I don´t know if this is the right place to address the Fame page I edited, but it seems like I was wrong. I double added the Arena quest, not the miscellaneous quests, which erroneously led me to 204 instead of 198 — Unsigned comment by C0rTeZ48 (talkcontribs) at 12:05 on 28 November 2018

There's no need to address it if it has been corrected. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)


We've had consistent reports of Mazoga arriving at Rockmilk on Turdas and Undertow on Fredas. Test it for yourself and you will see that this is what happens. I spent quite awhile trying to figure out why it wasn't working, and then had the insight that the day was wrong. No, she's not travelling to these areas after 16 hours are up. She will walk out from White Stallion to Rockmilk on Middas at 2pm, arrive at Rockmilk and return to White Stallion at 6am and sleep until 2pm. On Turdas at 2pm she will leave White Stallion heading North to return to Rockmilk. Then she returns to the White Stallion Lodge at 6am and then sleeps. On Fredas, at 2pm, she will leave White Stallion heaiding South to Undertow, arriving there at about 3:30 PM.

Please test it before reverting. I did and that's how I discovered this error. BenKenobi (talk) 02:30, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Necroposts on talk namespace[edit]

A wiki isn't a forum and "topics" are not listed chronologically anywhere except in Recent changes, which are by definition limited. Is it really that problematic for you for a new paragraph to be added to a Talk page? -- 05:55, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

It's our wiki's policy to remove responses to posts old enough that the participants are unlikely to ever see the response (see Project:Necropost). The exception to this is when a post provides new information to a bug or long-standing question, or it provides information that should be included on the page. Also, topics on talk pages are chronological by date of first posting, though updates after that are, of course, not sorted. Robin Hood  (talk) 18:39, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) A wiki isn't capable of time travel and topics are listed chronologically. This wiki has a much laxer attitude than wikipedia to old topics; anything there is closed after 3 months. Your post was 6 days short of 6 years later, plus it was full of inaccuracies, unfounded speculation, and simply off-topic. None of the original 3 participants has been since October 2013, with the two IPs not making any other contribution beyond that day, so none of them is going to see your reply. The problem with necropostic is that allowing one allows another, spreading a "conversation" over many years, something which neither helps the article in question, or allows others to move on to other issues. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:41, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Definition of Favor[edit]

If the increase in disposition is not the defining factor, what makes a Favor a Favor? --Enodoc (talk) 23:44, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Most of them have underlying code, however, that isn't always available to see in the cs. The easiest ones to spot are the ones with editor ids, such as Favor158, but some of them are not, like Favor252. Erik the Slayer has coding attached which you can see in the cs. I'm not sure what the defining factor is (possibly along the lines of enabling Thaneship), as it was Morrolan who did the work on this 6 years ago, but I do know that disposition increases are not it. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:25, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
The Thaneship counter for Making Friends and Influencing People is actually what I'm trying to get a proper list of, as what we currently have on the Thane of… pages is inconsistent and at least partly incorrect. That is therefore what I was basing this change on – for example, I see nothing in the Erik the Slayer code which is relevant to the Thaneship counter, which is why I don't think it counts as a Favor. If it doesn't affect the counter, and isn't a prerequisite quest for Thaneship, there needs to be something else which makes it a Favor, otherwise it can't be one. Supply and Demand and the Helm of Winterhold quest also don't appear to affect the respective counters, so are not useful for the list I want to create, but I can see why they could be considered Favors under the Thaneship definition since they are prerequisites even without affecting the counter. Dragon's Breath Mead on the other hand does affect the counter for Haafingar, so I don't see why it wouldn't count as a Favor. --Enodoc (talk) 19:19, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Morrolan agrees that the Thaneship counter was the primary condition for counting something as a Favor when that page was written. Since the Thaneship counter is directly defined by disposition (except in Riften), those edits to Erik the Slayer and Dragon's Breath Mead that were based on disposition appear to be valid. Unless you can think of another reason which invalidates them, I shall therefore redo those changes. --Enodoc (talk) 22:22, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
There's a claim on the Erik talk page that Mralki's disposition is increased. I've looked and there is a list of quests with a Favors "filter", which is quite a bit smaller than the list on the page. The bigger problem with using Thaneship is that there are so many quests out there that increase disposition, many of them indirectly (eg adding you to a favourable faction). Unbound, for example, can give you 3 disposition increases, so you need a second defining factor to narrow it down. I think I was maybe a bit wrong in what I thought. If you can narrow down what actually makes a favor a favor, then make any changes you need to. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:38, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
So unsurprisingly it all appears to be very inconsistent. The FavorsNode in CSList doesn't match the Favor\ filter in the CK, and neither of those directly match the ones that are listed as Favors in the Prima Guide. However the ones that overlap between all of them are the ones that have "Favor" in the quest ID. Given that there appears to be nothing obvious in the CK which explains why the rest of the quests under the Favor\ filter are there while other similar Miscellaneous Objectives aren't, I think we are going to have to come up with the final distinction ourselves. Either we completely gut the Favors down to only the radiant objectives with Favor in the ID, or we firm up the definition we have to ensure that it's a useful list for Making Friends and Influencing People. Since the latter is probably more useful and definitely less work, that's what I will go for - meaning the definition will be something like "Favors are Miscellaneous Objectives for citizens of Skyrim which can increase their Disposition towards you, thereby progressing any objective to assist the people of a hold as part of the quest to become a Thane of that hold." --Enodoc (talk) 18:35, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Restore stamina effect and power attacks[edit]

In article Skyrim:Restore_Stamina you reversed my deletion on "endless power attacks" with the insignificant 1 pt / second restore stamina effect. I'm pretty sure I'm right because I tried it and the claim is false. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 12:49 on 19 July 2019

It's not a claim, its a tested and verified mechanic. Stamina can go below zero, which is why you only need 1 point of stamina to trigger the effect, with the rest of the cost being "owed". This is, however, overridden by the effect of a restore stamina meal which takes you back to zero and adds one point to your stamina, instead of the usual 5 second delay before stamina starts to restore itself. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:24, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
I tried it and you're right. I'm an idiot and I'm so sorry for wasting your time. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 10:11 on 29 July 2019


Okay, let me spell this out for you in plain English: stop being such a dick! Your behaviour here on the site has been a consistent issue, and it's not something the staff here will put up with for much longer. In short, shape up or we'll ship you out. Is that clear enough? Robin Hood  (talk) 17:18, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

Excuse me? What exactly is wrong with asking for people to be accurate? My behaviour has never been an issue, only my inability to stay quiet in the face of injustice. If the admins cannot accept being questioned when they are inaccurate in their words or deeds, then that is something they will have fix, which is not achieved by banning the people who question them. You are the one who escalated a perfectly succinct response into a major incident, you are the one assuming huge levels of aggression where none exists. My only thought was to encourage a user to be more accurate, something that will benefit us and them in the future, which has now been blown up to such a degree that you may have scared them off from the site. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:52, 3 November 2019 (GMT)
If you had stopped at politely asking for accuracy, there wouldn't have been an issue. Telling someone to "put some thought into comparing the actual lines spoken before making any more proposals" isn't asking for accuracy, it's being condescending and rude. As for your behaviour never being an issue, you've been blocked four times in the past by three different people, each time for "intimidating behaviour/harassment". Staff regularly field complaints about your aggressive, if not abusive, behaviour on-wiki. Given what other staff have said in response to this incident, I think it's fair to say that it's only because of your track record of helpful content edits and maintenance that you weren't banned some time ago. So, I suggest you look a little more closely at that behaviour if you think it's never been an issue. We have no qualms about being questioned, or called on inappropriate actions. What we do have qualms with is a user who goes around insulting and berating other users. Robin Hood  (talk) 23:37, 3 November 2019 (GMT)
I see, so this has nothing to do with what just transpired, its just an excuse to drag up the past again. The reasons given for my bans in the log are not an accurate portrayal of what occurred. Your count of four blocks isn't accurate, one of the four listings in the log is just changing the settings on the previous one to be more restrictive. You cannot hold any complaint against a person if you haven't taken any action to let the person know that there have been complaints, in order for them to know that they need to change anything (the reason there is an understanding that a user gets 1 "free" edit after a message has been posted on their user page before it can be taken further). It has been over a year since an admin has said anything on this page about behaviour, so to say there are regular complaints about me without going into any detail is just slander as I have no knowledge of them. I have only ever tried to be helpful on this wiki, I have not once deliberately intimidated or harassed another user, I have never tried to stop a person contributing positively to the wiki, and I have never hidden from being held accountable for my actions. There is no rule that says I have to be nice to people, only respectful, and there is nothing to say I have to care about other people's feelings, which is entirely different from being rude. Unless the bar for being rude has descended to absolute zero, then asking nicely (yes, you forgot to quote the Please from the above sentence) for someone to do something that will benefit them is still acceptable. Please remember to assume good faith when reading my words, I don't wish to be banned again. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:48, 4 November 2019 (GMT)
I have genuinely valued your contributions to the site for as long as I can remember. I have enjoyed seeing your edits, and I intended to contact you about putting in an RfA, before the first incident that resulted in you receiving a warning. Unfortunately for some years now, there have been conflicts between you and other users. Many users have cited their interactions with you as a reason to avoid the wiki. I believe you when you say you have never done this deliberately, but I have spoken with enough users about this, privately or otherwise, to know it has happened numerous times.
I am ending my preexisting neutrality in an attempt to reach a resolution that is beneficial for everyone. However I feel the existing bad blood needs to be addressed and resolved, with the intention of ending the conflict. I want you to be an editor of this site, I'd honestly like for you to be a patroller again someday, and I certainly don't want to see you banned. So in good faith, I am offering to review this situation at length, explore our etiquette policies in-depth, and resolve any and all lingering issues. If you'd like to try this approach to the problem, please just let me know, and we'll work together to achieve a fair and positive resolution. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 03:10, 4 November 2019 (GMT)
Unless all involved (and active) admins are prepared to apologise for their incorrect behaviour towards me, and remove all bans and warnings from my history, I have no desire to involve myself in resolving their dislike of me, especially when previous attempts at have simply led back to me being warned/banned. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:56, 12 November 2019 (GMT)

() The apology required here is not from the site staff. As you yourself have pointed out, you have had several warnings and bans from several different people over the years. It's not because we "dislike" you. At some point in all of this, these warnings and bans should have led you to reflect on your own behaviour, yet you consistently reject the idea that you could be doing anything wrong. From your statements, you seem to believe that it's everyone else that has a problem, and that your own behaviour is somehow above reproach. I'm sorry, but that's not the case. You consistently say something to the effect that nobody told you you were doing anything wrong, so it shouldn't count against you, yet each incident on your talk page has been the direct result of a specific issue. It's not the admins' job to teach you how social interaction works or to post to your talk page for every single wrongdoing; it's your job to realize when several people are telling you the exact same thing—that you're being rude or abrasive—and figure out how you can improve your own interactions with people. We don't warn or ban people just because we don't like them. We warn or ban them when they're doing something wrong. Look at your own behaviour before you go casting aspersions at everyone else. Robin Hood  (talk) 20:36, 12 November 2019 (GMT)

Please read my comments properly before trying to vilify me. I said you needed to be prepared to apologise, i.e. prepared to admit you were wrong. I did not say you or anyone else was required to make an apology before I talked to AKB, the sentence doesn't even require an apology if you are proven to be wrong. I have never said I am above reproach, and I did not say that I have never been told I was in the wrong. You made the claim that "Staff regularly field complaints" in your response to calling me a "dick", and I pointed out that it has been over a year since an admin posted about my behaviour. If that claim is based on those posts from over a year ago then they are neither regular, or recent enough for to you to tell me to "stop being such a dick" in response to your own perception of one comment I made. If you want me to be prepared to admit I was wrong, then you need to be prepared too, that is how an honest discussion works. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 12:29, 13 November 2019 (GMT)
I'm sorry, but to me, this comes across as a blatant attempt to gaslight me, and I won't indulge you in it. If you are, in fact, being genuine, then you can discuss your concerns with AKB, as he offered. This will be my final response on this subject, and others can take it from here. Robin Hood  (talk) 17:09, 13 November 2019 (GMT)

Sigar bug[edit]

Hey, I was a little confused by this edit of yours - just to inform you, it's not already there, the bug listed is about the opposite problem. Regards, --Ethruvisil (talk) 19:53, 4 November 2019 (GMT)