User talk:Enodoc

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Hello Enodoc! Welcome to UESPWiki. It's always good to have new members. If you would like to help improve any of our pages, you may want to take a look at the following links:

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Feel free to practice editing in the sandbox and don't hesitate to contact one of our mentors if you need any help. Have fun! --Archain 14:30, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome! --Enodoc 20:11, 21 March 2011 (UTC)


Hiya, Enodoc! I just wanted to say thanks for all the work you've been doing around the wiki! Patrolling your edits is really easy, as you are consistently very thorough and add reliable, verifiable content regularly. Your help on talk pages is great too. So thanks! Happy editing. :D — ABCface 22:44, 6 February 2013 (GMT)

Thank you very much! :)     It's always a bit tricky editing on a new wiki, but this one was easier to get into; probably due to it being on a similar vein to Fable Wiki. And thanks for deciding on a single place for the discussion on the Stones thing as well. I think we're nearly there, we just need a couple more verifications one way or the other. --Enodoc (talk) 23:45, 6 February 2013 (GMT)
Ah, that was for my own sanity, haha! It's easier to see everything all in one place than having to jump back & forth between different discussions, so hopefully we can gather all the relevant info and get it figured out! Your comments on a few pages have been very helpful in regards to that. :) — ABCface 00:21, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

Image Requests[edit]

Hi there Enodoc, I've just been testing out my new Userspace Patroller superpowers, and came across a couple of your edits that I thought I might be able to help you with. I see that here and here you have been requesting images for the wiki. You might find it useful to use this page to request specific images that are missing from the wiki, this way your requests are more likely to get a response. Note that the {{NeedsImage}} template should be used on pages which are missing basic images, and is automatically added to pages missing the image parameter in Summary templates for creature, NPC, and place pages. Happy editing. Darictalk 15:23, 19 February 2013 (GMT)

Cool, thanks. I'll have a look there. --Enodoc (talk) 15:54, 19 February 2013 (GMT)
I've added my request. Thought I'd go for a reasonable list rather than just a single image. Banners can be very useful. :)
Enodoc (talk) 00:07, 23 February 2013 (GMT)

House Redoran[edit]

Hi, Enodoc, sorry for neglecting your comment on my talk page for so long; I kind of forgot about it after I started editing again. But I just went over the page and made a few tweaks. Nothing important; you did a great job! You can take a look at my recent revision (and likely my second and third revisions, and probably Jeancey's revision), and let me know if there's a change you want me to address. Have a good one! Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 05:32, 5 April 2013 (GMT)

No worries, thanks for getting back to me! I notice you've sectioned it, which is nice for clarity. I've also gone over the other house articles T, H, I, D (they may also need sectioning) and the Great Houses over-page, if you're interested in checking them for consistency.    :)    Enodoc (talk) 12:00, 5 April 2013 (GMT)

Aurbis confusion[edit]

Hi. You and Jeancey may have worked it out in IRC, but I just wanted to give a quick and dirty clarification to some of the confusion I saw in this discussion. The Aurbis is the interplay between stasis and change - the universe, essentially. Beyond it is the Void, nothingness. The Wheel is the structure of the Aurbis. Think of the Aurbis as just that: a wheel. The Aedra are the 8 spokes; their realms constitute Aetherius, but Aetherius does not include Oblivion or Mundus. These 8 spokes creating 16 pockets of emptiness between them- those are the planes of Oblivion. Mundus is the Tower, the hub of the Wheel, which is in neither Oblivion nor Aetherius; just neutral ground for collaboration. Mundus is the physical universe, the mortal realm, of TES. So the planes of Oblivion are not really between Mundus and Aetherius, but instead buttress the Mundus same as the Aedric planes. A lot of this is stated in the games or can be inferred from them; some of the details are in Kirkbride OOG, notably Vehk's Teachings (a relatively reliable source for background lore). Sovngarde is an Aedric realm, and thus is in Aetherius like the Mantellan Crux. The Soul Cairn is classified as a realm of Oblivion, and I assume that's correct, although the Ideal Masters are so mysterious that anything's possible. Hope that helps. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 00:48, 10 April 2013 (GMT)

Ah, that's great, thanks! Kirkbride's stuff is at the Imperial Library, isn't it? I'll have another look at that sometime. :) --Enodoc (talk) 16:51, 10 April 2013 (GMT)


You easily meet all the requirements, so I've just updated your user group rights ;). Welcome aboard! eshetalk 18:30, 18 April 2013 (GMT)

Congrats!!! Jeancey (talk) 18:34, 18 April 2013 (GMT)
Thank you very much!      :)     Enodoc (talk) 23:25, 18 April 2013 (GMT)


Heya Enodoc, glad to see someone familiar around here. Its strange for me, coming here I always wish to help out a lot but I feel overwhelmed by this wiki, perhaps you might be able to help me learn a lot better on how things work here? I've tried looking through the usual places, but figure it might be easier to learn coming from someone I've had dealings with before. Anyway hope to hear from you whenever you have the time, and maybe we can chat about TES sometime in the IRC.--Lycos Devanos Drop me a line 06:43, 20 April 2013 (GMT)

At first I was thinking "Who is this guy?" so thanks for using a considerably more familiar name in your signature      :)
I felt the same, and started off here the same way I started off in other places; adding small bits to pages I thought were lacking, and trying to make pages consistent with each other. In general, it's quite similar to Fable; there are article 'infoboxes', categories, standard sections that a page of a certain type has, and a bunch of very helpful people who apparently don't mind correcting mistakes that we inevitably will make. It appears that edit summaries are also used a lot more here (for pretty much everything) than at Fable.
One of the biggest differences I noticed is the extensive use of namespaces here, but it's not really different from disambiguations. Lorespace is the most different, and I kept out of it for a good while before I decided that I was interested in helping out there as well. The difference with Lorespace, as I understand it, is that it is the most encyclopedic namespace and doesn't include specific game details.
It'd be good to chat in IRC sometime, but also let me know if you have any specific questions, and I'll try to answer them  :) --Enodoc (talk) 10:09, 20 April 2013 (GMT)
Thanks, I've tried requesting a full account name change but this will have to do for now. And thanks for all that info, hearing that even you had a bit of draw backs makes me feel a lot less overwhelmed. I've made a few small contributions since I joined here, but mostly on talk pages. I try and do as I do over at Fable wiki, scout for vandalism and remove it but seems there are more keen eyes then mine for that.
I think the Lorespace is just for overall history, as I understand it, and covers in-game world lore, history and legends. For example if it was used at Fable Wiki, it would cover details about the Old Kingdom and the Archons.
I'm still looking into the IRC, but thanks for the offer of help :) I'll be sure to come and ask should I require any assistance.--Lycos Devanos Drop me a line 22:49, 20 April 2013 (GMT)

Lore People Summary[edit]

Hey! I created a lore people summary template! Let me know what you think, here. Jeancey (talk) 23:48, 29 April 2013 (GMT)

Lusty Argonian Maid[edit]

I have already contacted them for clarification. However, it is entirely possible that Crassius Curio didn't actually write the play, but simply found it and put his name on it. Happens all the time in real life. I suspect that this is what their answer will be. Jeancey (talk) 22:35, 6 May 2013 (GMT)

Aye probably. Although I bet that wasn't what BGS were thinking when they put it in Morrowind to start with... Enodoc (talk) 10:47, 7 May 2013 (GMT)

Linking to a version of your sandbox[edit]

Hi Enodoc, just wondering what the purpose is for linking from your profile page to a particular version of your sandbox? I'm curious, that's all. I see you're using class="plainlinks" for this. As an alternative, you might like to look at the {{Pl}} template, which can achieve the same thing. Either way works fine. I'm just wondering why you'd want to link to a particular version of your own sandbox? Daric 21:49, 29 May 2013 (GMT)

Just basically to keep a record of the articles I've updated in it when they're finished, as a list of what I've done and to save filtering through the whole page history if I'm looking for something specific. It's kind of like how others have links to their numerous sandboxes which have different things in, and lists of the pages they've updated. Thanks for the link to {{Pl}} by the way, I didn't know there was a template for that. --Enodoc (talk) 23:18, 29 May 2013 (GMT)


This may interest you. It is a map of the regions in-game. It answers some of the issues on your talk page, such as why Eastmarch and The Rift seem to cover parts of morrowind (they don't) or why some zones don't seem to ever reach the coast (they do). Jeancey (talk) 23:39, 16 February 2014 (GMT)

Ah that's brilliant, thanks! That does indeed sort out most of those issues. --Enodoc (talk) 23:48, 16 February 2014 (GMT)

Another inconsistency[edit]

Hey Enodoc, I've found a lore inconsistency that I thought you might be interested in. A book called Exegesis of Merid-Nunda appears in ESO and lists Herminia Cinna (an NPC who appears in Oblivion) as one of the translators whose work the book is based off of. However, the book was written in the second era, and Herminia Cinna lived in the third era, meaning that in order to have done the translations she would have to be around 800 years old by the time she appeared in Oblivion (and likely even older, as she wasn't born the year ESO takes place and we don't know how much time may have elapsed between her work and that book). We don't know much about life spans in the ES world, but 800 years for an Imperial seems a bit off. --AN|L (talk) 20:03, 20 February 2014 (GMT)

Ah great, another one! Thanks, I'll add it to my list :)
Enodoc (talk) 21:51, 20 February 2014 (GMT)


Actually, it looks like Torinaan has 5 maps. Jeancey (talk) 00:35, 9 March 2014 (GMT)

Ah yes, so it does. My mistake :) Any idea how the areas of it are broken down in-game? --Enodoc (talk) 20:24, 9 March 2014 (GMT)
I never actually made it inside the ruin, but I believe the entrance is on Torinaan 1, and it goes down from there. Jeancey (talk) 20:27, 9 March 2014 (GMT)


I have nominated you for the user group, Autopatrolled. Can you please read over the page and either accept or decline the nomination. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:19, 13 March 2014 (GMT)

Oh cool, thanks for the nomination! I'd be happy to accept if you'll have me. --Enodoc (talk) 00:23, 14 March 2014 (GMT)

Online Quest Template[edit]

Hi Enodoc! I'm trying out your new quest header on this quest page and tried to set the type as "side" and remove the Faction parameter as the template page said, but somehow the Faction parameter is still showing up. I understand the template is still in-progress, but I'd thought I'd let you know. Thanks. likelolwhat talk lulzy to me 00:01, 20 March 2014 (GMT)

Blarg, thanks for that! I'll see what I can do. (On a side note, since that's [indirectly] a quest from Raz, [although optional] it's actually an alliance quest.) --Enodoc (talk) 00:05, 20 March 2014 (GMT)
Oh, cool beans. Looks like it's working now, but I'll add in the faction stuff on that page then. Cheers! likelolwhat talk lulzy to me 00:10, 20 March 2014 (GMT)
And now it seems something happened to the trail? It goes Online: Quests: Khenarthi's Roost whether I add a trail manually or delete it altogether. No Dominion. likelolwhat talk lulzy to me 00:19, 20 March 2014 (GMT)
Hmmm... that's partly because you set the type as Faction, type needs to be Alliance in this instance; and partly because I broke something. Sorted now I think. --Enodoc (talk) 00:36, 20 March 2014 (GMT)

Autopatrolled User[edit]

You are now an autopatrolled User, after your successful nomination! Congratulations! --AKB Talk Cont Mail 00:48, 22 March 2014 (GMT)

Oh wow, thank you very much :) --Enodoc (talk) 21:44, 22 March 2014 (GMT)

Autopatrolled Userbox[edit]

Hi Enodoc! As you are a member of the Autopatrolled Group, I thought I'd let you know I made a userbox for you guys. Feel free to add {{User Autopatrolled}} to your page. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 16:57, 29 March 2014 (GMT)

Oh cool, thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 18:47, 29 March 2014 (GMT)

Disambig pages[edit]

Hey! Disambig pages have a very distinct style that needs to be followed, which includes just one plain link per line, with as little formatting as possible. Just do you know for future reference. Jeancey (talk) 23:44, 15 April 2014 (GMT)

Ah fair enough, thanks for the heads up! --Enodoc (talk) 23:50, 15 April 2014 (GMT)


hey can you jump on IRC real quick? Jeancey (talk) 22:35, 9 May 2014 (GMT)

a lucky break[edit]

Is A Lucky Break under the correct region? Lorenut (talk) 00:49, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

Yes I think so, it starts right next to Westmark Moor Dolmen, which is definitely in Westmark Moor. --Enodoc (talk) 07:55, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

hold up on the loading screens[edit]

The name should be ON-load-Name.jpg (i.e. name should be in caps). I think that's how we did it for Skyrim? Jeancey (talk) 22:42, 29 May 2014 (GMT)

(edit conflict) Skyrim ones are SR-load-Name.jpg, as are Oblivion ones OB-load-name.jpg. I was using the Oblivion style where "name" is exactly the (lowercase) filename of the image (rather than what it is loading). --Enodoc (talk) 22:45, 29 May 2014 (GMT)
Hmm... I feel we should do Name rather than name, because often the file name was created early on and not updated with the location name, which is what happened with several of the maps. The name of the place changed in game, but the image name remained. If we just use the file name, it could make it hard to find the loading screen of an area if the name is different. That make any sense? Jeancey (talk) 22:47, 29 May 2014 (GMT)
Yea makes sense, also makes it considerably harder to upload if I don't know what those places are (for example, I have no idea where alikrtheward is, as I can find no place called The Ward or Theward in Alik'r. --Enodoc (talk) 22:50, 29 May 2014 (GMT)
True.... if you can't tell you could just upload them as is, and they can be moved later. The Ward might be for the Impervious Vault, since that is part of the Epode Wards quest? I'm not in that alliance content yet, so I couldn't tell you. Jeancey (talk) 22:53, 29 May 2014 (GMT)
Fair enough; what about the main quest ones? Their names are Chapter 1, Chapter 2 etc and one called Daedroth. Should I rename them, or leave them as they are? --Enodoc (talk) 23:00, 29 May 2014 (GMT)
Depends.... Are the chapters the same as the quests, or is there more than one quest per chapter? Jeancey (talk) 23:02, 29 May 2014 (GMT)
It's a bit awkward. There's loading screens for Chapters 1, 1_5, 2, 2_5, 3_5, 4_5, 5 and 6. The missing "3" is the Daedroth one. I haven't got to 4 yet. The first quest of each "chapter" (so far) is the one that upgrades Soul Magic to the next level (Chapter 1 gives SM1, Chapter 2 gives SM2, etc). --Enodoc (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2014 (GMT)
We can just name them after the locations in the screens. I'm fairly certain they are listed on the quest pages, and you can tell which is which from the image itself, I would think. Jeancey (talk) 23:10, 29 May 2014 (GMT)
OK sure. The only one that won't work like that is Chapter 3_5; let me know if you've actually seen it when I upload it, as I'm not sure if it's used anywhere (it's Abnur Tharn standing in front of White-Gold Tower). --Enodoc (talk) 23:13, 29 May 2014 (GMT)

Ebonheart Pact quests[edit]

I just wanted to check, are you doing them at low level, or as veteran quests? Jeancey (talk) 23:02, 31 May 2014 (GMT)

Low level. Started a new char in EP today :) --Enodoc (talk) 23:14, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
Ah! Kk. You'll get to fill in all my "huh"'s then :P. Jeancey (talk) 23:23, 31 May 2014 (GMT)


So, I've been slowly working towards doing that with addbelow for the past year :) I haven't actually pulled the trigger because I've yet to sit down and remove all the current uses of addbelow from the rest of the site. But, I was so focused on the current usage in the main template I totally forgot that there aren't any ESO usages of addbelow, and I could have done it on that template a while ago. So thanks! At some point, we'll have to do it for the other template too :) Jeancey (talk) 14:46, 24 July 2014 (GMT)

Haha yeah I remember you saying you wanted to do something with it, or just ditch it altogether. It was back at the end of May when I changed the one for Online Place Summary as I wanted to say "This place, also known as somewhere," and realized that wasn't actually possible. I may have broken a few that used it in its old format, but I don't remember there being any, so I just went for it. Also at the beginning of July I added some useful functionality to it, so it now takes into account whether the entry starts with a comma, and applies a space or not as necessary. So it can now be used for alternative names (like Reaper's March) or for a bit of extra info that isn't warranted in the description (eg Mages Guild (Alcaire Castle)). --Enodoc (talk) 14:55, 24 July 2014 (GMT)

Online Quest Objectives[edit]

When listing them in the table, is there a built in way to indicate that you must complete one of two options? Jeancey (talk) 19:53, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

No actually. Do you think it would be worthwhile if there was one? As I can add it if necessary. Otherwise, you could just use:
Complete one:
  • Objective: Eat cheese
  • Objective: Kill cheese
Enodoc (talk) 20:07, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
It MIGHT be useful, but often they have two different paths after that, so it is hard to indicate what the next steps are for each... I used optional for the quest that made me think of this. Jeancey (talk) 20:30, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
The option is now there...
Complete one: Talk to Kaleen or Talk to Lambur
It didn't like linebreaks so I had to use or instead.
I guess you could just go with subheaders of the Online Journal Entries template to show if you did one or the other.
Enodoc (talk) 22:28, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

Turning of the Trees: quest start[edit]

Hi Enodoc, when I compared Turning of the Trees with my own experience of the quest, I was surprised to read about an NPC called Babineaux Redain and the related bug. I also found the discussion about it in the ESO forums. After my lvl 3 character woke up in Daggerfall, I explored the town and its surroundings before starting any quests. I remember that I came across Bernard Redain at the bridge near Deleyn's Mill, and that he was marked as a quest giver. Later, I finished Bloodthorn Assassins, and Babineaux Redain did not turn up - well, I didn't expect her to. It seemed to me like a small, finished questline consisiting of two quests. Eventually, I went to Bernard (not being aware that the quest he offered was going to be related to the Bloodthorn Cult) and started Turning of the Trees - but I am quite sure that I could have done it before even starting Blood and the Crescent Moon. You mention an "Alliance Story chain" and "the flow of the Alliance Story" in the ESO forum thread. My guess is that the quest chains have been loosened up since April and that we have to review a lot of "previous/prerequisite/next quest" entries on the quest pages. --Holomay (talk) 09:09, 23 August 2014 (GMT)

That's why I introduced a difference between previous and prerequisite. The chain exists, as if you do everything in the order we have listed, you'll be taken through all the zones without ever having to "search" to find the story quests. However, you don't have to do some quests before others, hence quests that are previous are not always prerequisite. Without a quest giver turning up after Blood and the Crescent Moon, it does indeed seem like a finished questline. So how would you know where to go next to continue the story of the Daggerfall Covenant? The Alliance Story should take you from Soul Shriven in Coldharbour right through to Messages Across Tamriel without you ever having to look around to find quest givers. Without Babineaux Redain (or any quest giver at all), that story is stalled after BatCM and you don't know where to go next, and that is the only instance I have come across so far in any zone where what I consider the "story chain" stalls. --Enodoc (talk) 12:07, 23 August 2014 (GMT)
I see, thanks for the explanation. I wasn't aware of the nature of the story quests when I started playing ESO a few days ago. As there were so many controversial discussions about its open world-ishness/linearity in comparison with the solo ES games, I decided to approach it in a deliberate, blissful state of ignorance/naivety and just started exploring the world in the way I was used to from solo RPGs. :) I found your discussion entry that probably led to the creation of the Online Quest Header template, and the distinciton between prerequisite („must be completed before this one“) and previous („that comes before this one if it is not required for this one to start“) makes perfect sense. - I just can't find the explanation on actual article pages, and I think that for many players it would be helpful to know that it's possible to complete the quest chain in a not entirely linear manner. Online:Story Quests would probably be a good place for this?! --Holomay (talk) 05:28, 25 August 2014 (GMT)
You are right in that nothing actually explains that anywhere, and I agree that such information would be useful. Story Quests is a relatively new page right now, but that may indeed be a good place to put the info. --Enodoc (talk) 11:58, 25 August 2014 (GMT)
Another little observation regarding the story chain: When you talk to Captain Jerick and complete the quest A Dangerous Dream, he won't have any further dialogue that leads to the next quest in the storyline. It's a different situation than after Bloodthorn Assassins, of course. With Babineaux missing from the game, you have to find Bernard outside Daggerfall. Here, the next quest giver in the storyline, Dame Dabienne, is in plain sight, right in front of the Sleepy Sailor Inn, and it's very likely that one talks to her even without any hints from Jerick. Still, it's the first time, except for the TotT quest start, that an NPC who completed a quest didn't give me a dialogue option that would start the next quest. Usually, after you complete a quest, you have to ignore a new dialogue topic and say "Goodbye" instead if you want to avoid the start of the next quest in the chain. As this is exactly how far I've proceeded in the storyline (and I haven't started any other alliance quest chain yet), I have no idea how noteworthy it is and if there are more storyline quest starts that rely on the proximity of the next quest giver rather than on a dialogue option of the previous quest giver. You have a much better overview of the quest chains, so I thought I'd let you know. --Holomay (talk) 16:45, 28 September 2014 (GMT)
Yeah there's a few like that later on. It's usually those quests that you can do early that turn up like that. The only reasoning I can apply to it apart from that is that it's the closest quest-giver to where you turn in a quest that gives you the next one in the chain. --Enodoc (talk) 09:14, 30 September 2014 (GMT)

Port Hunding Objective[edit]

Well, my attempt to identify the quests that are part of the Port Hunding Objective was only partially successful. :) I saw “Completed: Port Hunding” appear when I talked to Kaleen and finished Tip of the Spearhead after the arrival in Betnikh, so I knew for sure that this quest was part of the Port Hunding Objective. I assumed that The Spearhead’s Crew and The Broken Spearhead were also part of the Objective - I wasn’t entirely sure when the Objective had been started, though I thought it was when I first met Kaleen in Port Hunding, in the middle of The Broken Spearhead. The Daggerfall Objective, for example, is started together with Blood and the Crescent Moon when you talk to Giblets. I can see the Objective listed in the ESO Log entries of BatCM and BA. I also see The Grave listed as Objective under Innocent Scoundrel. However, neither The Spearhead’s Crew nor TotS have an entry listed under Objective. Do you know when exactly the Port Hunding Objective is started? Maybe it's better to remove the Port Hunding Objective from The Spearhead's Crew as well until we know for sure? (BTW if the start of the Objective is indeed at the beginning of The Spearhead’s Crew, I assume that it must also be at the beginning of The Spearhead’s Captain, as it’s the alternative quest to The Spearhead’s Crew?) --Holomay (talk) 14:06, 29 August 2014 (GMT)

Unfortunately I don't know when it starts, as it was added as an "Objective" after I did those quests the first time (that's why it's not in the Log Viewer). It was only when I was looking at the map of Stros M'Kai that I saw some Completed text on the map, which had not been there before, so I created a new character to see if I could work out when it starts. I know that it doesn't include The Broken Spearhead or The Spearhead's Captain, but since I did The Spearhead's Captain I now probably can't do The Spearhead's Crew (not sure if it may turn up after the second of the crew quests in this instance). So as of right now, Tip of the Spearhead is the only definite, with The Spearhead's Crew unknown. A quick way to identify while playing is to set /uespdebug on, and look at what appears when a new quest is started. You will get <Quest name>::<Objective name> in the chat display. If it's not part of an Objective, you just get <Quest name>:: --Enodoc (talk) 17:00, 29 August 2014 (GMT)
I think it's possible that you can still do The Spearhead's Crew. I took the "normal" path - talked to Kaleen after my arrival in Port Hunding, clicked the first dialogue choice regarding the crew members (Jakarn) and thus continued with Innocent Scoundrel. When after the end of Innocent Scoundrel Nicolene appeared in the Screaming Mermaid, I decided to explore the upper floor of the inn before talking to her. When I returned, she was gone. I found her on the Spearhead with her usual dialogue and no option to start The Spearhead's Crew. Then I helped Neramo - and after talking to him and finishing Buried Secrets, Nicolene showed up near the exit of Bthzark. I guess the same is going to happen to you after your second crew member quest. I don't know what kind of information is given during The Spearhead's Captain. You learn about the hideout in TSCrew, so if you aren't informed about it in TSCaptain, it would make sense that the game still tries to throw TSCrew at you even after TSCaptain (or, in my case, after you ignore Nicolene in favor of exploring the inn). And now I should finally install the uespLog AddOn ... --Holomay (talk) 18:59, 29 August 2014 (GMT)


Hey, I've noticed that you, like me, are interested in lore consistency. I've found a minor thing, don't know if it'll interest you: it seems that Mournhold in ESO is "mirror-flipped" in comparison to the one seen in Tribunal. The Great Bazaar (Royal Bazaar in ESO) and Godsreach (Plaza of the Gods) appear to have been swapped: in Tribunal the Bazaar was on the eastern side and Godsreach was on the western; in ESO it's the other way around.

Also, regarding that "Blacklight controversy", I've noticed that ESO's Emperor's Guide actually mentions the importance of the Dunmeth Pass near Windhelm, so it seems they haven't completely forgotten what's on the eastern side of the Velothi Mountains. - Vordur Steel-Hammer2 (talk) 18:37, 9 September 2014 (GMT)

I hadn't noticed that about Mournhold, good shout. I wonder if there was a major disaster in Mournhold between ESO and Morrowind which destroyed the city (again) and they rebuilt it the other way around?
Haha that's good to hear about the Dunmeth Pass. I haven't read the Emperor's Guide unfortunately. --Enodoc (talk) 18:44, 9 September 2014 (GMT)
I also wonder what happened to the statue depicting Almalexia defeating Dagon. In ESO there's only a fountain there. The statue might have been built later though. -Vordur Steel-Hammer2 (talk) 19:53, 9 September 2014 (GMT)
If I may jump in here. The city and its buildings got much, much bigger between ESO and tribunal. During that phase, it is entirely possible things got moved around, which happens often in real cities. Slums get built up, become nicer areas to live, older sections fall apart, become bad places to live. Merchants go where the money is, so they move closer to the newer, nicer sections of the city. I don't see THAT much of an inconsistency here. What did London look like 1000 years ago, for example. Jeancey (talk) 19:24, 10 September 2014 (GMT)
Nobody said it's a major inconsistency ;) It's more like an observation. And of course you're right. According to the lore, in the future Mournhold would actually expand beyond the city walls and the whole city would be referred to as Almalexia. -Vordur Steel-Hammer2 (talk) 19:51, 10 September 2014 (GMT)

It Broke![edit]

Hey Enodoc, may I direct your attention to The Blight of the Bosmer, specifically the header. For the life of me I can't figure out what happened to the last three parameters or how to fix it, so I was hoping you'd have an idea. You were the last one to mess with it, after all. :P --likelolwhat talk lulzy to me 20:57, 8 October 2014 (GMT)

Seems AKB has fixed it. I must have missed out a bracket on the {{huh}}. Thanks for pointing it out! --Enodoc (talk) 21:17, 8 October 2014 (GMT)

Unknown future zone in Black Marsh[edit]

It looks like we have the name of the last unknown zone in Black Marsh. It is Thornmarsh. Obviously the city of Thorn is the capital. The name can be found in the most recent loremaster's archive. :) Jeancey (talk) 18:22, 7 November 2014 (GMT)

Ah that's great, thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 19:05, 7 November 2014 (GMT)
Haha, I was also going to tell you that, but apparently I was too slow ;) Just notice that this zone looks like it's partially in Morrowind as well and contains the city of Tear. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 19:40, 7 November 2014 (GMT)

Double check on guild trader name[edit]

I was wondering if you could double check a guild trader in sentinel. You put it on the guild trader kiosk page as Vinder Hlaran. When I made all those pages, I created it as Vinder Hlaren. Could you double check which one it is? Thanks! Jeancey (talk) 02:22, 1 December 2014 (GMT)

On an entirely different matter, some of the basic item icons have changed in 1.5. The ones I noticed specifically were Raw Jute and Rawhide Scraps. Could you check to see if new icons have been added for crafting items? I know how much you love icons :) `Jeancey (talk) 02:25, 1 December 2014 (GMT)
Just checked and it is Hlaran. I'll leave the page for you to move though so that there isn't a redirect left over.
I've uploaded the missing icons for Raw Jute and Rawhide Scraps, but icons overall are a bit tricky as they aren't labelled in the files with what they actually represent in-game. They also seem to keep changing them, so I've not replaced many old ones but instead linked ones that are the wrong name but the right icon (I think), as it was already. Let me know if you spot any other different icons, as they seem to change them all the time  :P Enodoc (talk) 19:14, 1 December 2014 (GMT)
I moved it. Thanks for checking! Jeancey (talk) 20:14, 2 December 2014 (GMT)

ESO Item[edit]

I was thinking of making it somewhat more generalized in the name. Something like {{Item link}}. That lines it up well with Book link, Place link, etc. What do you think? Jeancey (talk) 10:03, 15 December 2014 (GMT)

Could do I guess, but it will only work for ESO items so I was aligning it with {{ESO Veteran}}, {{ESO Quality Color}}, {{ESO Alliances}} etc. --Enodoc (talk) 10:07, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
For now, yes. There isn't any reason this couldn't be expanded to previous or future games. I mean, it requires effort on Dave's part, but the tooltip is superficially the same, this is just the first time we've had a database like this to draw from. The three you mentioned can really ONLY apply to ESO, not previous games, but the others had tooltip blurbs too. Jeancey (talk) 10:16, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
Sure, fair enough. I wasn't thinking of using it for the other games since the databases didn't exist, but I agree there's no reason they may not in the future. Feel free to move it (I'll let you do it to avoid the redirect)    :)   --Enodoc (talk) 10:20, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
Done. :) Let me know when it is done, cause I'ma go on a rampage :P Jeancey (talk) 10:35, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
I think it's good to go, although you may find some issues that I haven't thought of. Like name  :P. I'm not sure what to do in the event of different versions of the same item, but maybe that's not so relevant anyway. --Enodoc (talk) 10:51, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
What do you mean by different versions? :P I'm gonna go crazy right now btw... :) Jeancey (talk) 10:54, 15 December 2014 (GMT)
Well if you look at the list of medium armor there's about 30 different IDs for "Rawhide Jack", and I don't know how we'd determine which one was the one we wanted. I said it may not be relevant though if you're doing quest rewards as most quest rewards are unique. --Enodoc (talk) 11:01, 15 December 2014 (GMT)

Mages Guild Hall (Wayrest)[edit]

Enodoc, sorry for being slow :) "It was named as such because that is the name of the building" - duh! Took me a while... :-(  :-D - Shuryard (talk) 21:10, 17 December 2014 (GMT)

No worries    :)   We'll need to have a better look around most of the cities to check the other names, as I'm pretty sure some of the ones in Alik'r are called "Mages Guild Tower". --Enodoc (talk) 22:38, 17 December 2014 (GMT)
You are right, just found one in Sentinel... Okay, will be careful! ;-) - Shuryard (talk) 01:37, 18 December 2014 (GMT)

Future zones[edit]

Hey Enodoc, I'd just like to point your attention to the names of the future ESO zones, which I've mined from the master text file, among other things. You might want to update your map with them ;) --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 21:52, 22 December 2014 (GMT)

Oh nice, thanks for that! Any idea if any of them may be that zone in Summerset that you found a bunch of quest text for? Also, do you think Dregmire may have become Murkmire? --Enodoc (talk) 22:32, 22 December 2014 (GMT)
A loooong time ago, even before Craglorn came out, I found what looked like an early concept map of ESO on some forum and it contained the same names I've found now. On that map, Thornmarsh was named Southern Marsh, Sunforge was south of Bangkorai, and the Weeping Desert was south of Craglorn. However, I have nothing to confirm that. And I wasn't able to find anything about the name of the Summerset zone. A phrase "Blessed Isle" was mentioned twice, but I doubt that it's the name. And both "Murkmire" and "Dregmire" are present in the file. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 22:45, 22 December 2014 (GMT)
OK cool, thanks! I don't have anywhere to put Dregmire, so I'll just leave that one off. --Enodoc (talk) 22:47, 22 December 2014 (GMT)

Map icon[edit]

Hi Enodoc! Do I understand it correctly that if the guild is not marked on the map in game, this line "|marker_icon=ON-icon-MagesGuild.png" should be omitted from the page code? - Shuryard (talk) 18:48, 4 January 2015 (GMT)

Yeah, that's right (or, at least, that's how I believe we do it). marker_icon (and the related marker_id for POI places) refer to the icon that a place has in-game, so if there is no in-game marker, then there should be no marker_ coded on the page. --Enodoc (talk) 21:25, 4 January 2015 (GMT)
Makes sense. Thank you! - Shuryard (talk) 21:28, 4 January 2015 (GMT)

Fighters Guild (Haven)... again :)[edit]

Hi Enodoc! If I understood it correctly, you finished Haven's quest line. Could you please check if the Fighters Guild hall in the city is also Abandoned for you? I am assuming this is a bug, since the picture of the hall and images of the armsman and steward that we already have all show that they should return to the city's guildhall after Haven is liberated... Thanks! - Shuryard (talk) 16:03, 5 January 2015 (GMT)

Yes it is abandoned. I agree that this is therefore a bug. The Abandoned Fighters Guild cannot be entered, despite the rest of the city being safe. And the pictures you refer to do indeed suggest that this is a bug that did not exist before. I suggest submitting it via /bug in-game. --Enodoc (talk) 19:16, 5 January 2015 (GMT)
Will do. Thank you! - Shuryard (talk) 20:39, 5 January 2015 (GMT)

Peer Review[edit]

Hi Enodoc!

I was hoping if you had some time, if you wouldn't mind checking out my sandbox for Skyrim:Unarmed Combat. I've been trying to eradicate the few remaining Skyrim articles that need cleanup, and I'm starting to put the finishing touches on this one and looking for some input as to whether the sectioning is okay, the wording, and whether I've covered every aspect of the topic (I think so, but I'm not 100% sure).

Let me know if you have any comments on it. Thank you!GodRaineTalk 21:24, 19 January 2015 (GMT)

It looks pretty good    :)   I never really used unarmed combat, so I can't really comment on the content itself, but to me it's easy to read and sectioned appropriately. A couple of style comments: personally I'm not too keen on the formatting of "the Dawnguard DLCDG" which occurs a few times, and would probably change it to just "Dawnguard", being linked to "Dawnguard" the first time it's mentioned. I'm not sure if the table really needs the ticks and crosses, but if you want to keep them, I would suggest adding a space between them and the text, to give it a bit of separation. Finally, for consistency, you may consider having Unarmed Combat in the first sentence in bold to match the other pages on the wiki.
I hope this is helpful, and I look forward to seeing the finished page! --Enodoc (talk) 21:48, 19 January 2015 (GMT)
Awesome - thank you so much. I'm taking this page from a bit of an unstructured mess to something a little more organized, so in my perspective it already seems like I've overhauled so much, so I knew I was missing a few minor details. I really appreciate your input!GodRaineTalk 21:51, 19 January 2015 (GMT)

Online:Boatswains‎, trail and categories[edit]

Hi Enodoc! I was trying to add Boatswains‎ to Vendors and Services categories and also to show it in the trail, but it did not work out :) Instead it created a new category Online-Vendors-Services. Could you please take a look? Thanks! ~ Shuryard (talk) 19:17, 3 February 2015 (GMT)

Sorted. In this instance, it seemed like you needed the / slash operator, which is only available in {{Trail}} (not {{Trail2}}). Also, since there appears to be no Services category, I prevented the trail from adding any, so categorization is based solely on what you had there already; that being [[Category:Online-Vendors| Boatswains]]. --Enodoc (talk) 23:36, 3 February 2015 (GMT)
I think I finally understand how it works... Pity that one needs to actually save pages to see the results of experiments with categories, otherwise I would play with it some more to make sure :) Thank you very much, as always! ~ Shuryard (talk) 05:09, 4 February 2015 (GMT)


Hey Enodoc! You added this line {{#define:marker_icon|ON-mapicon-Vendor.png}} to the Online:Bleakrock Trading Hall Artisans and Online:Bleakrock Trading Hall Merchants pages. I am wondering if it is for the esomap? Thanks. ~ Shuryard (talk) 01:40, 7 February 2015 (GMT)

Well, I think my first assumption is correct: it provides an icon in front of the place's name whenever the place is listed somewhere with the {{Place Link}} template. Is that correct? What confuses me is that I cannot find ON-mapicon-Vendor.png file. And another thing, it works here, but not here or here... Sorry for so many questions :) I just don't like being confused :P ~ Shuryard (talk) 04:33, 7 February 2015 (GMT)
Sure, no worries. That is indeed specifically for displaying an icon in the {{Place Link}} template (it's not actually relevant for esomap); since both of those places have their own separate map icons, adding them to their redirects is the easiest way to make sure that this is accounted for (it's a similar way that all Wayshrines have icons, despite hardly any wayshrines having their own pages). It turns out that ON-mapicon-Vendor.png is actually wrong; the only reason it's working is because the place link template is too clever. It should actually be ON-icon-Vendor.png. I think the reason it's not working in some places is due to the page cache not being fully updated. --Enodoc (talk) 18:16, 7 February 2015 (GMT)
The other reason it wasn't working properly is that I forgot to tell the page to {{#save:}} it. That should be sorted now too. --Enodoc (talk) 18:55, 7 February 2015 (GMT)
I tried to change it to ON-icon-Vendor.png on ...Merchants page. It did not work right away, but, perhaps, it did later on one of the pages because of the cache "remembering" it... Do we need {{#save:}} since it is a redirect? Thank you! ~ Shuryard (talk) 20:09, 7 February 2015 (GMT)
If you want a parameter to be used on another page, then it always needs to be #saved. If you look in the code for Place Link, you will see that it #loads marker_icon, among other things. It can only #load something that has been #saved. So for something to be called onto another page, it has to be #defined, #saved, and #loaded. Details on this are here: UESP:MetaTemplate. --Enodoc (talk) 01:13, 8 February 2015 (GMT)
Thank you! I started looking into MetaTemplate... It's quite a read :) ~ Shuryard (talk) 15:47, 8 February 2015 (GMT)

Hallin's Stand test[edit]

Hi Enodoc, I might be able to help you with your testing of the Alliance Story Flow. As you can read here, I'm in the middle of The Parley - and I haven't started any quests in Hallin's Stand yet. Which test should I do? Complete Hallin's Stand before Bangkorai Garrison, or after Bangkorai Garrison without starting Striking Back? --Holomay (talk) 22:56, 16 February 2015 (GMT)

Oh cool, thanks! Could you try the second one, completing Hallin's Stand after Bangkorai Garrison without doing Striking Back, and see if any quest pops up when you finish The Shifting Sands of Fate? That would be great! I don't think anything will pop up, but it would be good to see. Thanks again! --Enodoc (talk) 09:19, 17 February 2015 (GMT)
Okay, I'll do that. :) It might take a while though - my quest progress is very slow as I try to take as many screenshots as possible (including images of NPCs in the area who might disappear after a certain quest stage, waiting for good moments of the day/night cycle, triggering scenes multiple times without talking to/activating quest targets etc.) Also, my current quest stage (still The Parley before speaking to to Gabrielle or Darien) seems to trigger some noteworthy situations in the Bangkorai region (please have a look here), and as the flow of the final DC story quests seems to be quite tricky, it might be helpful to test a bit more. Do you have any ideas what else I should be testing before proceeding with The Parley? --Holomay (talk) 15:22, 17 February 2015 (GMT)
Well it would be interesting to see if you get sent anywhere if you go to the Hall of Heroes, as that's where you end up after Striking Back. Other than that, I can't think of anything right now. --Enodoc (talk) 15:51, 17 February 2015 (GMT)
I've found Scout Yashamud near the Hall of Heroes. I have added his dialogue to his article up to the point where I guess that Trials and Tribulations will be initiated. At the Hall of Heroes I can only fight generic Imperials, there are no named NPCs, and I can't enter the interior. I wasn't able to find Commander Ahla (there's no article about her yet) at Bangkorai Garrison or anywhere else (for the situation at Bangkorai Garrison, please have look at my latest reply here), so I think she will be spawned as soon as I start Trials and Tribulations. I've finished all side quests in Bangkorai except for some group dungeon quests, so that I don't think I can do any other tests before proceeding with the main quest one way or the other. While it also would be interesting to complete the dialogue with Scout Yashamud and see if Emeric is going to be moved to the Hall of Heroes before I have even started the Bangkorai Garrison quests, I guess I should proceed as you've suggested above - completing Hallin's Stand after Bangkorai Garrison without doing Striking Back? --Holomay (talk) 16:16, 11 May 2015 (GMT)
Hey, I don't know if this info will be useful to you in any way, but some time ago I did a speedrun of the DC silver quests on one of my alts to unlock AD quickly, and after liberating the Bangkorai Garrison, I went straight to the Hall of Heroes and completed it (along with the whole alliance), bypassing Hallin's Stand completely. So I guess it's not necesary for anything. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 16:27, 11 May 2015 (GMT)
I think Commander Ahla will only appear if you haven't done Rendezvous at the Pass (or possibly The Parley), as she and Scout Yashamud seem to be designed to take you to the Garrison before you do Hall of Heroes. So yes, please try completing Hallin's Stand after Bangkorai Garrison without doing Striking Back, and see if any quest appears once Hallin's Stand is complete.
Thanks for that info Vordur, it definitely seems that Hallin's Stand is not required, so all that's left now is this test to see if it is chained. --Enodoc (talk) 16:38, 11 May 2015 (GMT)

() I guess that the option "All right. I'll take word to Commander Ahla." in the dialogue with Yashamud which I didn't click might spwan Ahla. Maybe Scout Nadira at Bangkorai Pass will have the same dialogue. I will have an eye on these various locations and NPCs while I proceed with the main quest. While there's still a dialogue chioce left with Yashamud when he wants to send me to Commander Ahla, I can only respond with "Goodbye" to Sir Gidric and Dame Harbert at this stage - I consider these two dialogues buggy. Do you think it should be noted in a bugs section on their NPC pages? --Holomay (talk) 18:44, 11 May 2015 (GMT)

That applies to many NPCs who have a pointer quest which is no longer available; I don't really think it's worth mentioning, because there's just too many of them and it's not something they're going to address. It would be interesting to see what happens if you do say you'll take word to Commander Ahla; you can always abandon the quest if you get one. --Enodoc (talk) 20:15, 11 May 2015 (GMT)
I received a new quest. I am not sure how to integrate it into the quest flow chart though. It's obviously a pointer quest, but I guess it's meant to send you back after Rendezvous at the Pass or Storming the Garrison have been started and more NPCs have spawned at Bangkorai Garrison. Right now (still The Parley before talking to the NPCs at Evermore Castle), there's only Ahla and her horse, and she doesn't offer any further quests. --Holomay (talk) 07:59, 13 May 2015 (GMT)
OK cool, looks like that is a reverse pointer; one that gets you back to where you "should" be if you go "too far forward" in the chain. Had you already completed Rendezvous at the Pass? Wait, nevermind, you say you're still on The Parley, so that would be a no. You may find, that having done Imperial Curiosity (assuming you turned it in), that Rendezvous at the Pass no longer exists for you. --Enodoc (talk) 08:32, 13 May 2015 (GMT) 08:55, 13 May 2015 (GMT)
No, I'm still at the same stage of The Parley ("talk to Gabrielle and Darien"). As none of the circumstances described above have changed after finishing Imperial Curiosity and no new NPCs have spawned, Gabrielle and Darien in Evermore Castle seem to be the only Alliance quest-relevant NPCs left at the moment, so I think I'll talk to them and proceed with the Hallin's Stand after Bangkorai Garrison w/o Striking Back test. --Holomay (talk) 09:02, 13 May 2015 (GMT)
BTW, I almost forgot about this. I'm afraid I'm messing up the Story Chart. :) Holomay (talk) 21:10, 15 May 2015 (GMT)
The first thing I thought when I read that cannot be repeated in polite company.      :P     Here's how my story chart feels right now: Enodoc (talk) 21:49, 15 May 2015 (GMT)
Hi Enodoc, I have finished Storming the Garrison which left me without any Bangkorai quests in my journal. Emeric is now present at the south gate of Bangkorai Garrison and at the Hall of Heroes simultaneously, probably waiting to give me either Striking Back or Trials and Tribulations. (BTW is the simultaneous presence of quest givers at different locations noteworthy or does it happen too frequently?) Should I proceed as planned - completing Hallin's Stand without starting Striking Back - or is there anything else I should investigate right now? --Holomay (talk) 22:21, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
Quest givers turning up simultaneously in different places is pretty common. Yeah, carry on with the plan and we'll see what happens    :)   Thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 09:33, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

() Okay, I've started the Hallin's Stand Objective. If there's anything else that can be tested with a v16 DC char who's still at the start of Messages Across Tamriel, let me know. :) Holomay (talk) 14:01, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I've finished The Shifting Sands of Fate and the Hallin's Stand Objective, and it seems to me that there is no connection to the story chain. Grandeya Nuwarrah and Ufa have thanked me without further dialogue. I can't find any other quest giver in or around Hallin's Stand. Emeric is still present at Bangkorai Garrison and the Hall of Heroes, waiting to give me Striking Back / Trials and Tribulations. I haven't noticed any new NPCs like Scout Yashamud who want to give me (reverse) pointer quests. Do you have an idea if there's a specific place I should investigate? Right now, there are no Bangkorai quests in my Journal, so I guess the next step will be to start Striking Back - unless there's another experiment I can start before that? --Holomay (talk) 13:16, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for checking! I don't think there's anything left to test in DC now; if you're interested in future investigations, let me know if you're ever in The Rift. There's a triangle of quests around Honrich Tower, Pinepeak Cavern and Taarengrav that requires further investigation     :)
There's also a few obscurities in Greenshade and Reaper's March on the Dominion side that I haven't got around to looking at yet. --Enodoc (talk) 13:36, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Enchanter Survey: Coldharbour I & II[edit]

It seems like you were right about possibly mixing up of the files for survey reports in Coldharbour. The files for Enchanter Survey: Coldharbour I & II should be the other way round. I am not good at this, so I will not try correcting it myself. —MortenOSlash (talk) 10:09, 20 February 2015 (GMT)

Ah thanks for letting me know. I'll reupload the maps the right way around the next time I am in the extracted images folders. --Enodoc (talk) 12:13, 20 February 2015 (GMT)

Woodworker Survey: Coldharbour I & II[edit]

It is the same mix as with the Woodworker Surveys as with the Enchanter Surveys, by the way. ;-) —MortenOSlash (talk) 18:11, 26 February 2015 (GMT)

Sorted! Let me know if you find any others  :) --Enodoc (talk) 23:53, 26 February 2015 (GMT)

Blacksmith Survey: Coldharbour I & II[edit]

Same with Blacksmith Survey: Coldharbour I & II. Their destinations are additionally so close it is easy to confuse them ingame too. —MortenOSlash (talk) 09:16, 7 March 2015 (GMT)

Yes☑ Done. Thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 12:46, 7 March 2015 (GMT)

Online Place Summary[edit]

In your edit summary to the Online Place Summary, you asked "what is this for?" What part of it were you asking about? Robin Hood  (talk) 16:43, 1 April 2015 (GMT)

Oh, wait, I think I see what you're getting at. The {{#if:1|whatever}} forces the wiki to format the response as if it were at the beginning of a line. For example:
{{{somevar1|* this is not a bullet}}} gives you: * this is not a bullet
{{{somevar1|{{#if:1|* this, however, is}}}}} gives you:
  • this, however, is
Robin Hood  (talk) 16:48, 1 April 2015 (GMT)
(edit conflict) Oh yeah, the {{#if:1|}} around another parameter, which I pulled out of {{City Summary}} because it was there on the corresponding houses/services parameters that I was copying. It seems to have something to with the bullet lists those parameters contain, but I wasn't sure what or how it worked.    :)   --Enodoc (talk) 16:50, 1 April 2015 (GMT)
Yep, that was it, thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 16:50, 1 April 2015 (GMT)

Services moved to infobox[edit]

Hey Enodoc! On the Shinji's Scarp page you moved "Shops and Services" section into infobox. FG and MG have their own pages and it works well for them. What about other services, like Magical Weavings? There are several vendor stalls in the camp. If we create redirect-pages for them, it will be just a list of stall names with no links in the infobox. Would it be better to create full-fledged pages instead of redirects then?   ~Shuryard (talk) 19:21, 2 April 2015 (GMT)

Hmm, it's awkward, but I think in this case we may have to create individual pages. There's no map marker to group them under, so there's not really anywhere to redirect them to in the same way as other stalls. ESO is the first time we've had services with their own map markers, which is why they were given their own section in the body of the page (in previous games they were all listed in the infobox), and every time something slightly different crops up, we need to consider how best to handle it. What do you think? --Enodoc (talk) 19:53, 2 April 2015 (GMT)
Just an idea. What if we do it vice versa? List shops and services that are marked on the map in the infobox of the settlement, an icon, a link to the building and a map link. They have their own full pages anyway and all of them are also listed on the pages-directories (e.g., Stores, Inns, etc). Perhaps, it will take {{Place Link2}} to list them without descriptions. However, for places like Shinji's Scarp, Martyr's Crossing or Hissmir we can list services on a settlement page in Shops and Services section using {{Place Link}}. That way we can still make them redirects and their descriptions will be seen. How does that sound?   ~Shuryard (talk) 20:50, 2 April 2015 (GMT)
It's probably best if we don't clutter the infobox up with icons and map links; to me, an infobox should appear as "clean" as possible; it is, as the name implies, only a summary. That's partly why I decided not to do that for the Daggerfall places; that, and it's a really long list that looked quite out of place when I tried just moving everything into there. Additionally, with the redirects that we have already, we are still able to give all the details of the stalls on the marketplace/store page, whereas that probably wouldn't be viable with a redirect straight to a settlement page. --Enodoc (talk) 22:15, 2 April 2015 (GMT)
Still, creating full pages for stalls that usually are done as redirects contradicts the arrangement we've been following so far. I am sure we can find a way to keep it consistent. One option would be to duplicate Shops and Services list in infobox as well as in the Shops and Services section for unmarked settlements. What do you think?
P.S. This page is quite long, have you thought about archiving yet? :)   ~Shuryard (talk) 02:33, 3 April 2015 (GMT)
If we just redirected those stalls to the settlement pages though we'd have nowhere to put any detailed information about them, unless we added new sections for them on that page, or added more details about them directly in the Shops and Services section. Neither of those options would be consistent either. The reason we decided to redirect stalls to their parent marketplaces/stores initially was because in-game, those stalls are considered part of the marketplace/store according to the in-game map, and that's an easy place to consolidate details about every stall available at the marketplace. (Also there would just be so many different pages, but that was a secondary consideration.) There is no in-game map showing stores in the minor settlements, so there is nothing to redirect to according to the existing setup. I think the best way we can fairly consider these stalls is to give each one its own page.
Maybe we should get some other opinions on this as well? I could start a CP discussion for it. --Enodoc (talk) 20:24, 5 April 2015 (GMT)
Yes, it would be great if you start a discussion. Let's see if there are any other options.   ~Shuryard (talk) 20:53, 5 April 2015 (GMT)
OK will do. I'll let you add the details of your suggestions there so that I don't inadvertently apply any bias to them. --Enodoc (talk) 21:16, 5 April 2015 (GMT)


Choco chip cookie.png
You have been given a cookie!

Your dedication and diligence to the wiki has not gone unnoticed. A user has seen the progress you've made, and has given you a cookie because of it. Good work! The user had the following to say:

Not to interrupt your uploading spree, but those are some excellent images of the Cyrodiil "regions". Great to finally visualise them! —Legoless (talk) 20:04, 5 April 2015 (GMT)
Oh wow, thanks! That's it for today, as it turned to night-time in-game and the ones I have left are all in enemy territory :) I'll try to get some more done soon! --Enodoc (talk) 20:28, 5 April 2015 (GMT)


Hey Enodoc! I see you have recipes replacement on your list of projects. Just wanted to check in with you, since it was you who got the new recipes list and I don't want to step on your toes. Is it important for you to work on it personally? Do you want some help? Or is it fine if somebody else does it? Just let me know, please, either way is fine with me.   ~Shuryard (talk) 19:14, 6 April 2015 (GMT)

Oh no, go ahead. I got the recipes from ZOS for anyone to use, so if you feel like doing it, that would be great! I want to carry on with documenting the regions of Cyrodiil and recording Quest XP before moving on to something else anyway. Hopefully soon the Item Database will be updated with the new recipes (and ingredients) so we can use {{Item Link}} for all the details (I think I need to talk to Dave about that). I only got as far as the end of "Food" in the old recipes when I was updating links and adding missing information, but hopefully that layout will be useful for whoever wants to add the new recipes. That list of projects is just a general collection of things that need doing which I will do if nobody else gets there first, so if there's anything else you fancy taking a crack at as well, feel free. --Enodoc (talk) 20:34, 6 April 2015 (GMT)
Ok then, I'll start working on it.   ~Shuryard (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2015 (GMT)

ESO XP Template[edit]

I'm curious, is the difficulty part of the template subjective, or is it found in the data somewhere? I mean, obviously, the breadcrumb quests that just send you somewhere are "very easy" but many on the other ones seem very subjective. Jeancey (talk) 13:58, 22 April 2015 (GMT)

It's back-compiled from the data. It was stated on the forums that there is an experience multiplier for quests based on "the time taken and relative difficulty", so using that information I have been recording XP rewards and calculating the values that are "Standard" (multiplier x1). So using the XP rewarded by the quest, you can infer its difficulty. See User:Enodoc/Sandbox#Experience From Quests for my record. Plain values are from the game, [bracketed] values are calculated without direct in-game corroboration, but since it always works for those I have confirmed, I no longer worry about not having in-game proof for the others. --Enodoc (talk) 14:08, 22 April 2015 (GMT)
I don't know if any XP values still need confirmation, but fyi: All the XP values that I'm adding are based on screenshots of the quest completion including the UespLog messages, and so far all of them matched the numbers in the table. --Holomay (talk) 07:58, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Online Place Summary (2)[edit]

Don't forget to document the new parameter you added. Robin Hood  (talk) 16:15, 22 April 2015 (GMT)

Whoops, thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 16:30, 22 April 2015 (GMT)
I do it all the time too! :) Robin Hood  (talk) 16:37, 22 April 2015 (GMT)

Enchanter Survey: Craglorn II is acutally Enchanter Survey: Craglorn III[edit]

The map that is now called Enchanter Survey: Craglorn II is actually the map that should have been Enchanter Survey: Craglorn III. —MortenOSlash (talk) 20:32, 7 May 2015 (GMT)

And also the other way round. Makes it easier to switch. —MortenOSlash (talk) 07:51, 10 May 2015 (GMT)
Sorted, thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 17:58, 10 May 2015 (GMT)

Woodworker Survey: Craglorn I & II[edit]

The Woodworker Survey: Craglorn I is the map that should have been on Woodworker Survey: Craglorn II. (I have already checked the Woodworker Survey: Craglorn III, and that is ok, by the way.) —MortenOSlash (talk) 17:44, 11 May 2015 (GMT)

Blacksmith Survey: Craglorn I & III[edit]

Blacksmith Survey: Craglorn I and Blacksmith Survey: Craglorn III should be swapped. (I am not sure, but I think maybe the comment about changed position on Blacksmith Survey: Craglorn III might actually be an attempt to notify the same.) —MortenOSlash (talk) 02:53, 15 May 2015 (GMT)

Molemir's Estate[edit]

Hey! I just saw what you found out about Molemir's Estate. I just wanted to add that some time ago I found evidence in the game files that originally it was to play a part in the Haven quest with pirates taking the city, but from what you found it seems that it will be given a new purpose. Also, I don't remember where, but I heard of this "Abah's Landing" before - it would be a city in Sunforge, a zone in Hammerfell. And if you're interested in the Thieves Guild questline, there is a pretty decent amount of its dialogue in the game files - I didn't read it just to avoid spoilers. Have fun! --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 22:35, 20 May 2015 (GMT)

There's also a large amount for the Dark Brotherhood too. Jeancey (talk) 22:47, 20 May 2015 (GMT)
Cool, thanks guys! I think the connection to the pirate attack is still there, but it seems to be really more related to the larger story of "the Lodge", and is just providing some grounding in zone events. --Enodoc (talk) 23:12, 20 May 2015 (GMT)
Okay, so I checked it again and it seems I was wrong - Abah's Landing can't be in Sunforge, as it is a port town. But the following lines:
"Ann's admitted to me this was all a plan to put her in power, to replace Banu as the Magistrate of Abah's Landing. She's made me a part of her crew, a trusted advisor. All that's left is the last step."
"This symbol of office normally sits on Magistrate Banu's desk. It bears a sytlized representation of Cybiades Isle."
as well as this fragment of a note:
"I require a barrel of mudcrab meat to be delivered daily so I may develop a compilation of the finest recipes of Abah's Landing for publication. Not only will you be promoting the culture of Cybiades with your contribution, but I will also provide the typical payment for your services. -Master Chef He-Cuts-the-Flesh, Cybiades"
suggest that the city may be located on the isle of Cybiades. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 00:16, 21 May 2015 (GMT)
Actually I took a stab at finding locations and names for DB and TG a while ago and I believe that the main Thieves Guild hub is in a place called the Gray Barrows on the Isle of Cybiades. Personally, I viewed this as a sort of Dunbarrow Cave type set-up for the guild. But I have no proof of that being what it looks like. It could be a pocket realm of Moonshadow that is accessed from Cybiades. Jeancey (talk) 00:26, 21 May 2015 (GMT)


And a hand-picked one! :) Congratulations!  ~Shuryard (talk) 01:21, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 11:31, 6 June 2015 (UTC)


Was the "Cyroxdiil" an intentional change in this edit? I'm kind of assuming not, but not having ESO, I figured I'd bounce it back to you rather than undoing that part of the edit myself. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Whoops, nope not at all. I thought I'd pressed something, but then couldn't find it. Thanks for catching it! --Enodoc (talk) 19:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


Hey, just wanted to point out that Bravil should be added to your map of unmarked locations, because the name "Bravil" shows up in the top right corner of the screen if you manage to get to the island with the city by jumping over the water on horseback. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 01:34, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh cool, thanks. I'm surprised you managed to do that without getting Slaughtered though!    :P   --Enodoc (talk) 14:36, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Icon Mining[edit]

ON-icon-potion-Crown Tri-Restoration Potion.png Hey Enodoc! I looked for this one through the icon archive uploaded by Daveh in march, very thoroughly, some days ago and could not find it. I am wondering whether we have a new archive uploaded, which I missed somehow, or it comes from some other sources? I'm asking because our contraband pages need tons of icons and I'm looking for (not in-game) ways to figure those out. If you don't want to share your other sources, that's totally fine! :)  ~Shuryard (talk) 04:01, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

It was extracted directly using Daveh's EsoExtractData program. Since icons seem to be updated so frequently, I thought I should try and work out how to use it to keep at least the icons up-to-date between major updates, so I run that every other patch or so to see what's new. (It also extracts loading screens and maps, but Dave clearly applies some post-processing to those before uploading them here, as the raw format extracted is virtually unusable. Textures too, which are quite interesting to see even if they are not much use.) There are quite a few Justice icons in there, so you may like to try it out and see if what you want is in there. --Enodoc (talk) 08:12, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
Oh, cool! It'll require some tricks on my part to extract those (my game files are on Mac), but I'll figure something out. Thank you!  ~Shuryard (talk) 15:53, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Prison District[edit]

The Prison District seems to be the exterior of the PvE dungeon, like where you discover it. A map and a couple objectives have been datamined, and based on one of the wallpapers it seems likely that Green Emperor Way will also make an appearance. —Legoless (talk) 20:52, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

It's possible, but looking at the map of the Memorial District during the gameplay demo in the most recent ESO Live, the door to the Prison District is marked directly with the Imperial Prison group dungeon icon, which suggests to me that the "outside" and "inside" of the prison are both covered under the Imperial Prison Dungeon. The demo showed that access to White-Gold Tower was through the sewers as well, so Green Emperor Way isn't looking very likely. If I'm wrong though, it's easy to revert. --Enodoc (talk) 21:07, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

On Quest Pages[edit]

Hey, there. I'm currently in the process of writing a guide for one of the Auridon quests. I was just wondering about a couple things.

First, how do I get the tooltip-popup from the game and onto the wiki? You know how when you hover over an item, the little box pops up with information - and then how many item links in the wiki do the same? That's what I mean.

Also, is our long-term goal to document a majority of the dialogue in quests? I've been using Skyrim:Lost_to_the_Ages as an example for the guide, and I notice that almost all, but not quite every line of dialogue is documented. How would you recommend I approach this?

Lastly, how do I organize miscellaneous/unique information into a quest page? Should I just shove it all at the bottom in the notes section? For example, the unusually large (exact) amount of the same creature in the same space, exact amount of damage per tick from standing in a predominant environmental hazard, etc etc?

Thanks! Raddok (talk) 07:44, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

To do the tooltip popup, you need to use the item database. Use the search box in the top-right to find the item. We'll take the Lion Guard Great Helm from Rally Cry as an example. The search results will list anything that is remotely linked to any of those words, so you'll have to go through the list to find the right thing. Here is the helm. Now you need to use the {{Item Link}} template, and you need the item's id, level, and quality. The id is in the URL of the item page; for the helm, this is 1127. In-game, the item level is 11 and the quality is green (which is quality rank 2). So we write {{Item Link|Lion Guard Great Helm|level=11|quality=2|id=1127}}, which gives Lion Guard Great Helm. If there is more than one database entry for a particular item, such as Iron Helm, we would need to determine which one it is using the UespLog AddOn or something else which produces the ItemId in-game.
Yes, I would say we probably would be aiming towards documenting most quest-related dialogue, as we seem to have done that before. Soul Shriven in Coldharbour already has most dialogue added, and The Corrupted Stone and Elemental Army have some as well, so you could use those as examples. To avoid typing it all out, you can download the most recent en.lang file here.
If miscellaneous info is important for quest progression, then you can stick it in the main body of the detailed walkthrough, otherwise the notes section would probably be best. If things like creature density and environmental hazards are not specifically quest-bound, then most details would belong on the related place page rather than the quest page; there's a guideline which says The quest walkthrough should focus on quest-specific information: what the quest objectives are and how to complete those objectives. It should not try to provide comprehensive information on all locations visited during the quest. Check out UESP:Style Guide/Quest Layout for more guidelines on quest pages. Like the Place Layout guidelines, they are mostly valid for Online articles with a few minor differences.
Hope that helps! --Enodoc (talk) 09:50, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
That does help, a lot! One clarification: so you're saying that you don't want to explain the location in depth, you merely want to explain the quickest route through the location to finish the quest for that page. Example: I'm doing 'Quest of Miscellaneous', which takes place in 'Cave of Exemplification'. I come to a fork in the cave that goes left and right. Right takes me to some random place that's unrelated to the quest, but has things that might be interesting. Left is how I complete the quest. I wouldn't detail the right path and it's interesting contents, but instead just tell the player, "Go left." I would only explain details about the right path on the place page.
Thanks for helping me out! Raddok (talk) 11:27, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
It's really up to you to decide how much extra info to include. Something that may give an example of how it can be done in different ways, depending on who wrote it, would be to see how Elder Knowledge and Discerning the Transmundane handle the Dwemer ruin they pass through, and then compare those two with the page on Alftand itself. Elder Knowledge goes into quite a bit of detail about Alftand, whereas Discerning the Transmundane basically gives none. And yet the page on Alftand still gives the most info about the place overall. The layouts are there as guidelines only, and everyone has their own way of writing -- just remember, all contributions to UESPWiki may be edited, altered, or removed by other contributors. If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then don't submit it here. And have fun! --Enodoc (talk) 12:27, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Alright, thanks for the extensive explanations and examples. People like you make WikiEdits much less frightening. I'll probably land somewhere on the middle ground, going into general detail about the places on their quest pages, with the nitty-gritty details being saved for the actual quest path, and the entirety of the place page. I feel this is a good starting point. And I don't mind being edited - this is a community project, after all!
Thanks again, Enodoc! Raddok (talk) 19:50, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

More datamining[edit]

Hey! I've recently done some more datamining and found some more information about Abah's Landing. Apparently the city is called "the Jewel of Khefrem", which would place it in the region which probably makes up the southern coast of Hammerfell. Moreover, one of the explorable locations is called Hew's Bane, like that weird peninsula in Hammerfell according to Redguard map. Thus it's quite possible that the city is located somewhere on the southern coast, maybe on the peninsula itself. The isle of Cybiades, which we talked about before, still appears somewhere during the Thieves Guild questline, it seems.

On another note, I found out that the Gold Coast will probably be tied to the Dark Brotherhood questline, although coincidentally, it seems that they announced it officially shortly afterwards. There's already some quests set in places such as Anvil, Kvatch, and Garlas Agea.

If you look into en.lang and happen to find something interesting too, let me know! --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 16:32, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

I had a quick look through, and one thing I noticed is that references to Hew's Bane and Cybiades are quite infrequent when compared to other terms like Abah's Landing and Violet Lamp (which I think was previously Violet Lodge). There's no individual location called "Khefrem", so I think that's likely to just be a passing remark. It could be that Hew's Bane and Cybiades are one-time places visited during the course of the questline, like Abagarlas or the Circus of Cheerful Slaughter. Interestingly enough, the previous references to the Lodge which made connections with Molemir's Estate haven't been updated, so maybe they are no longer going to be involved. --Enodoc (talk) 16:07, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
Yeah. I've tried hard to determine what the in-game name of Abah's Landing zone could be, but it seems it isn't clearly mentioned anywhere so far. While it's said to be in Khefrem, this region will likely not appear as a whole, but rather we'll visit a small part of it. No clue about the name, though. At least it's easier with the DB: one of the early quests of their questline is specifically set in the Gold Coast. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 17:15, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Wrothgar Milegate[edit]

On Online:Firebrand Keep you have an image labeled as "Wrothgar Milegate". Did this name appear anywhere in-game before Orsinium? I have it noted as such on the new gate article but verification is needed. —Legoless (talk) 20:30, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

No, it was entirely a descriptive label, not a proper name of the location. --Enodoc (talk) 23:58, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
Great, thanks! —Legoless (talk) 11:17, 16 November 2015 (UTC)


I saw the great work you've been doing updating the ESO place pages, so I started this discussion about Objectives on the CP. —Legoless (talk) 19:37, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Ah nice, thanks for letting me know! --Enodoc (talk) 19:41, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

ESO reverse Storyflow[edit]

Hey there! I have glimpsed some things that seem to indicate that you made it a project of yours to try to find out about ESO soryflow and reverse pointer quests and such. Out of a similar interest, I have tried to play the whole Stormhaven backwards - or at least as backwards as possible - and I will try to continue with that in all other veteran zones. If there's anything I can help you with, or you want something to be tried out, feel free to ask :-) -- SarthesArai Talk 21:00, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh cool, thanks! I've mostly done DC, so it'd be great if you were able to corroborate those, and if you're going through the other alliances too I'd love to hear what you find out! --Enodoc (talk) 21:27, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Errors in Place Summary Updates[edit]

Hey Enodoc! Looks like something broke in the place summary template. It says "Expression error: Unexpected * Operator" in bold red font in the discover field. Looks like all of the ones you did yesterday that didn't have a level filled in had that happen. I'm not sure where the problem originated, but I think I'll poke around in the template. —likelolwhat talk lulzy to me 22:01, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah that was a problem with the equations in {{ESO XP}}. I've moved a switch in there so hopefully that will fix it. --Enodoc (talk) 22:23, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Internal Numbering?[edit]

Per this: I didn't think ZOS were using those numbers anymore? I know lots of people in the community talk about Updates 7 and 8, but I'm pretty sure ZOS are going with "Orsinium base-game patch" rather than "Update 8 patch", etc. —Legoless (talk) 16:11, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Publically, yes, but you still hear mentions of "Update 7" and "Update 8" by some of the devs on ESO Live, and there are comments on the forums that are trying to push for continuing to use the "Update" terminology for the new base-game content that comes alongside a DLC release to better separate it from the content included in the DLC. This helps avoid the confusion that "Orsinium base-game patch" creates, which is contradictory at best. As a community site, I think we should promote the usage of "Update X" for base-game content and "DLC name" for DLC content, even if it's just to clearly indicate to our readers whether they need the DLC for that content or not. --Enodoc (talk) 16:46, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
I was actually considering noting the informal use the other day, but it's probably better off in the comments column rather than being bolded as the primary official name. Especially since the console releases differ in content for the base patches, which I assume is one of the reasons they moved away from the numbers. —Legoless (talk) 16:52, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Yeah that makes sense. I tweaked the formatting and the note so it better reflects their informal status. --Enodoc (talk) 17:17, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Just on this topic, Gina specifically references "Update 9" in today's PC Patch Notes. Whether this is a 'mistake' or a response to the community push, I guess time will tell ;) --Enodoc (talk) 18:17, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Oh, interesting! —Legoless (talk) 18:23, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Hey you... you, yes you there! (quest walkthroughs: bolded event tasks)[edit]

Enodoc :) I saw some of these bolded event tasks presented in a couple of Craglorn quests and I didn't edit them at that point. But I actually wonder, do we need it?

The thing is, very many quests do not involve any tasks. So maybe the reader is gonna get confused with all that and might not understand the point behind this. The format looks all fine in detailed walkthrough though - there is nothing wrong with it. But the quick walkthrough, hmrmm... And I understand the intention behind this is good (unless you in fact DID have a hidden evil plan to confuse the readers...! OMG!).

Or is it a part of some official guideline? Or maybe we should discuss whether it could become part of it?! I'm sleepy but I hope you got the point :/ Tib (talk) 23:19, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Yeah it's a Craglorn-exclusive thing; I don't know of any other quest set, outside of Craglorn, where the different sections of the quest are actually named tasks with their own objectives. I started putting them in the Quick Walkthrough so that people could easily see which objectives come under which section, and so that it's easy to see that these named task sections are actually part of a larger quest and not quests on their own. I think they're also relevant to quest sharing (unless that was changed); if a group has completed a task section before sharing the quest to someone, that new player doesn't have to complete the previous tasks, unlike all other quests where they would have to start from the beginning. Just including them in the Detailed Walkthrough I thought didn't give them justice, as they seem to be integral to the Craglorn quest setup. --Enodoc (talk) 23:51, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
I see, thank you for explaining. The quest-sharing information could actually be very useful to have included somewhere, esp. for new players. Craglorn quests maybe? I thought at first that these tasks only appeared inside the delves, where it's like part of clearing the delve. For example there is an event in Skyreach Catacombs that is not part of the quest (the treasure chest-something). Well, in any case, it sounds like it's good and relevant information! If I stumble upon any such event not added, I will try to add it in the similar way you have done. Tib (talk) 11:34, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Need help finding creatures[edit]

Hello, I have been tabulating level and health values for most mobs found in the overworld, but I have some difficulty finding mobs of a certain level, more specifically level 1, 2, 3, and 15. Since you've been adding level values to locations, do you happen to know where I can find these mobs, if they even exist? Thanks :D Contraptions (talk) 08:18, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

1 and 2 should only be in the Wailing Prison. You may find some 3s in the Prison as well, or on Stros M'Kai, Bleakrock or Khenarthi's, but that's unlikely (most of those on the islands should have been bumped to 4); outside of that, they would probably only appear during the quests Blood and the Crescent Moon, Legacy of the Ancestors, and Ensuring Security. It's been a while since I've done those quests, so they may actually have Lvl 4 enemies rather than Lvl 3. It's also possible that some of the NPCs around Daggerfall Southern Docks, Dockyards (Davon's Watch), or Vulkhel Docks are Lvl 3, but they are also more likely to be 4 or 5. For Level 15, look around the Tomb of Lost Kings, Cath Bedraud, Crosswych, or King's Guard Dolmen in Glenumbra; Kragenmoor, Tormented Spire, or Varanis Dolmen in Stonefalls; and Castle Rilis, Firsthold, or Vafe Dolmen in Auridon. --Enodoc (talk) 09:54, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

New Event: Give Cookie Piece before the time limit exceeds.[edit]

Choco chip cookie piece.png
You have been given a cookie piece!

Your dedication and diligence to the wiki has not gone unnoticed. A user has seen the progress you've made, and has given you a cookie piece because of it. Good work! The user had the following to say:

Event completed: You have given Enodoc a cookie piece for his great work on the wiki. :D Tib (talk) 11:36, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
Thank you very much! --Enodoc (talk) 15:34, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

IC Locales[edit]

Do you know if the striking locales in the Imperial Sewers award discovery XP or not? I've added them to the Locales list since they have an associated exploration achievement, but they're currently almost undocumented, with no mention on ON:Cyrodiil and ON:Imperial City. —Legoless (talk) 19:51, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, they do. I believe it's Leveled (PC+5) Experience like other battle-levelled location discoveries. (On PTS, they were bugged, and also granted immediate top-tier Completion XP as well.) They should definitely be in the Imperial City Places list. --Enodoc (talk) 11:15, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Recent reversal[edit]

You recently reversed my removal of locations for Online:A Tale Forever Told. I was of the impression that if an object occurred at many locations in a seemingly random manner that listing these would be useless. Some time ago when I was a more active contributor, this is something that I was quite firmly told. Many books will have probably hundreds of locations. Not sure what is going on here. Thanks. --Rhynchelma (talk) 18:16, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Oh, maybe that was my mistake then, as I hadn't heard that one. But when it comes to ESO books, people will want to know where they are so that they can complete their libraries. For Shalidor's Library books this should be quite easy, as there are only a set number of places. For Eidetic Memory books though I can see a long list being cumbersome. Maybe we should start a discussion on CP? --Enodoc (talk) 18:22, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Shalidor's Library, no argument. Some of the others though, I come across repeatedly. I'm not a huge contributor, I really just asked for clarification. As an aside, I keep a database of locations - far from complete - and have over 70 locations for one book. I'll leave it up to you. --Rhynchelma (talk) 18:27, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Yeah that wouldn't really work. Is there any way to distinguish which books have loads of locations, perhaps a specific collection? Are they books that can be found in bookcases, or are they loose? It'd be great to see your database if possible. --Enodoc (talk) 18:51, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
The database is far from publishable = a mess. I am working on making it more useable (slowly), will let you know if and when it's good to use. I think a consensus needs to be reached as to when a book has a set number of places that it can always be found at, and when it's a more random occurrence. Those with more experience may have some ideas. --Rhynchelma (talk) 18:56, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Ah, fair enough. I don't mind a mess but if you'd rather not let it out yet that's fine. I also wanted to let you know that I've brought up your concerns on Online talk:Eidetic Memory, if you'd like to drop in on the discussion. --Enodoc (talk) 09:23, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Will go there, thanks. --Rhynchelma (talk) 09:26, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Ache for Cake[edit]

On the off chance that you haven't completed the quest yet, I was hoping you could offer a Covenant perspective on these questions. Events are gonna be a nightmare to document... —Legoless (talk) 03:19, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Planning to do the quest this evening. Will certainly look out for those things! --Enodoc (talk) 08:35, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Image Moves[edit]

Thanks for moving all those images. I remember thinking I should look if others needed to be changed after I did one the other day, but somehow I just never got to it and then forgot all about it. Good to know someone's on the ball, even if it isn't me. :) Robin Hood  (talk) 15:39, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

No worries :) As I was doing it I was also trying to work out the difference between a -quest- item icon and a -misc- item icon, and didn't come to any useful conclusion. --Enodoc (talk) 16:29, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
Other than the obvious conclusion that quest icons should be for quests and miscellaneous icons should be for things that don't fall into a clear category, I have little to offer. I take it we've been a little loose in our naming convention in that area? Robin Hood  (talk) 22:27, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, quite a lot of the icons we have in misc are originally from the "quest" icons directory in the game files. --Enodoc (talk) 23:33, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Unfinished CP tasks[edit]

I noticed the new section you just added to your page. I was just archiving CP by date, figuring anything that hadn't been touched in a month could probably be archived at this point. If anything should have been kept on CP for updates or what have you, by all means, unarchive it. Robin Hood  (talk) 20:47, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

I think it's probably fine; there were no further comments on what I'd suggested, so they now really come down to being "something to do" rather than "something to discuss". And having them here means I might actually remember to do them sometime  :P --Enodoc (talk) 21:24, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

District Capture[edit]

Just had a peek at the new capture points on PTS, and it raises a couple questions regarding place pages. Each district obviously now has two identically-named map markers: the current Quest Hubs using the village icon, and the new capture points using the lovely datamined district graphic. I think it's fair to say under our current setup the Quest Hub should have precedent, with the capture points serving as redirects (like ON:Fort Aleswell Farm) with a small entry on the place page similar to the vaults and crafting sites.

I'm thinking we should repurpose Online:Imperial Districts to describe these new capture points, so that we have an entry for Alliance War Places. It can still serve to outline the general mechanics of districts like it does now, but would {{Place Link}} the capture points rather than the Quest Hubs. In other words, the districts now qualify (IMO) as a distinct place type on par with ON:Quest Hubs. It's a little unintuitive, and we're gonna end up with ugly redirects like ON:Arboretum (flag) or (resource) or whatever, but it seems like an okay solution to me. The only downside is that we'll continue to have the village icon lording over everything... but by keeping the Quest Hub as the parent page, we'll be ready if they end up adding more flags.

Any suggestions or dissenting views? —Legoless (talk) 19:03, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree with updating Imperial Districts to focus on the capture point mechanic, but at the same time I don't think we need to remove any of the info that's currently there. Agreed also that Districts should now also be considered their own type of place (there was a reason I never updated the individual district pages to be "quest hubs"    ;)    ). I was thinking that if they added more flags, there would still only be one "control" icon per district (much like there are two flags at each keep, but the keep itself is indicated by one icon), so I don't really think there's any need for redirects; we can add all the relevant details to the existing pages and use the same place link on both lists (Quest Hubs and Imperial Districts). While I agree it technically takes precedent, the Quest Hub aspect of a district is only temporarily relevant (until the quests are finished), while the capture point persists throughout the lifetime of the game, so I would suggest changing the primary icon to the District icon, and keeping the village icon where it is under the "Discovery" entry, and also fudging it into the Quest Hub place link. That way, the District icon is persistent, but the Village icon is still in its relevant place under the Quest Hub list.
Also, be prepared for a similar discussion in the future regarding towns in Cyrodiil; there's a new icon set on PTS which seems to be setting up for the introduction of the proposed town capture mechanic. --Enodoc (talk) 21:30, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
That would work too, presuming that any additional flags don't add more district icons to the map. Settlement capture will be tricky... as if Bruma wasn't weird enough already. Did you ever find out the default states of the district flags? —Legoless (talk) 22:13, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
Unfortunately not. The default states probably aren't very important (there's no "home district bonus" or anything), but they would still be good to know. --Enodoc (talk) 22:38, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

ESO Quest Items/Collectibles[edit]

I finally got around to making the tooltips work for quest/collectible items. See the end of the User_talk:Daveh#ESOlog_Abilities discussion. -- Daveh (talk) 20:44, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 21:39, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

The Gold Coast question[edit]

Enodoc, thanks for pointing out the Gold Coast name discrepancy. I have to ask, are you sure that an article is needed in the "zone" field? It's not a part of the zone's "true" name, because then it would always be capitalized. This is however not the case with the Gold Coast. I'm confused :)

Tib is confused

Tib (talk) 19:03, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

That's how the name appears in the journal, which is what's relevant for the quest page. It's also the name of the zone in the loading screen, and the correct in-game name for the zone itself according to /script d(GetPlayerActiveZoneName()) and /script d(GetPlayerLocationName()) (much like the Rift, which has "the" in the name but is not capitalized in text references). --Enodoc (talk) 19:47, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
Yup, hence I said a discrepancy :< Anyways, what about the locations pages for Gold Coast locations? I think there's probably loads of links named simply "Gold Coast" right now. Tib (talk) 20:42, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
I've noticed that before - I wanted to rename "Gold Coast" to "The Gold Coast" after seeing the loading screen, but then I saw it was "Gold Coast" on the list of the zones in the map interface or on the map itself. If it has "the" in the journal , it becomes hard to decide which version is the "real" one. There seem to be strong points for both versions - I myself would go for the version without "the", for consistency with Oblivion. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 07:32, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
If The Gold Coast was a proper name it would always be capitalized in the sentence and it's article ("the/an") would afaik never be omitted from anywhere. There are, however, extremely few geographical names that have the definite article as part of their proper name. Gold Coast does not seem to be one of them. Anyways! In my opinion, the links should have consistency with the page name, which in its turn should be the proper name of the place. There should be a redirect "The Gold Coast" (which we have). We should not use definite/indefinite articles in titles (and links) unless they are part of the proper names, because they count as noise words. Tib (talk) 09:23, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
The Rift and The Prophet both have an article in their proper names, but they're rarely capitalized in sentence structure. But that's digressive. Regardless of what we think it should be, surely the in-game name of the zone itself takes precedence over anything else, including the name of the map, when naming the zone. As a comparative, the map for Cragwallow Cave is just named Cragwallow, but Cragwallow itself is already a separate location. Since "The Gold Coast" is the name of the zone, that is the name we should use when the zone is the primary consideration, like for quests (since Normal quests are listed by zone). When considering places, the zone is not the primary consideration; the location is. Since they are listed on a map called "Gold Coast", and maps determine location, the priority there is probably lower. But technically we should probably update those to use "The Gold Coast" as well. --Enodoc (talk) 13:06, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
If The Rift and The Prophet were proper names, they would always have to be capitalized like this within sentences, but they are not. So I doubt that the definite article is a part of their proper names, regardless of any (inconsistent) display in game scripts and thingies, because that's just not the way names work. "Prophet" and "Rift" would thus probably be ok to use as page names, although they are a bit different from this... both words "rift" and "prophet" are very generic by themselves, contrary to "gold coast". (It's not my personal opinion, it's how the naming convention goes!)
Also, isn't the zone and location effectively the same in this case, seeing they share the same page and name? Regardless, we should prefer using links to "Gold Coast", because that is the name of both location and zone without the definite article displayed. Ok, I'm not sure how to conclude it, I'll bold this line here - just because a definite article is displayed somewhere doesn't mean it's part of the proper name. This is why definite articles are usually omitted in name pages and links according to Wikipedia guidelines. Example - "Himalayas" is the proper name of the Himalayas and the page name is thus "Himalayas". The links go to "Himalayas". But there is a redirect "the Himalayas", and in sentences you of course write "the Himalayas" everywhere, however this does not make the definite article part of the name. You do not write The Himalayas, you do not link to The Himalayas. Even if there was a computer game posting my character's location as being in "The Himalayas", the proper name of the place would still be the "Himalayas", because the usage in practice takes precedence over everything else. According to my understanding the Gold Coast is a similar case. That would also be consistent with the usage of the Gold Coast name in other namespaces/lore etc. Enodoc please don't hate me for this :/ Tib (talk) 18:36, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Not patch 10[edit]

Okay, that confuses me, but I'll take your word for it since I don't play ESO. :) Is the link text correct as well, though, or should that be 2.3.10? Robin Hood  (talk) 18:11, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

If a Patch number is "z.y.x", Major Updates are defined by the "y" value. "x" changes are solely minor (incremental) patches, which do not usually alter aspects of gameplay, and its big changes to aspects of gameplay (sets, abilities, and so on) that the {{Online Update}} template is monitoring. The link goes to the first-released Live increment of that specific Update's patch cycle, as that's where the major changes to those things are documented; the first increment of the Update 9 (2.3.x) cycle is 2.3.5. The next time we will see a major change to sets, abilities, and so on, will be with the launch of Dark Brotherhood, and that will be Update 10 and the start of the 2.4.x patch cycle. That will also be the next time {{Online Update}} will be triggered so the pages it is placed on can be re-verified. --Enodoc (talk) 18:44, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
Okay, I think I understood that. I was just confused because we have 2.3.x being Update 9 (where I saw 2.3.9 and figured the 9 was the update number), and then the link not pointing to the most recent patch, but instead the "root" patch for the update. For my sanity, I think I'll just leave it untouched from now on and trust that ESO people know what they're doing. :P Whenever I do the re-run of the ESO Item Sets, I'll also put the patch number back to 9 instead of the 10 it got set to. According to Dave, that may end up being later this week or next, but I don't think there's a huge need to update everything just for having the incorrect version number for a few days, is there? Robin Hood  (talk) 21:55, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
2.3 is version 9 because 1.6 became 2.0 after the Tamriel Unlimited re-release. —Legoless (talk) 22:11, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Travel between alliances[edit]

Hey Enodoc! It appears that at some point Zeni has added the possibility to travel between the alliance territories by ship (providing you have access to the veteran zone in question). For example, you can use The Rusty Argonian Blade to travel from Davon's Watch to Vulkhel Guard, and the other ship nearby can take you to Daggerfall (you have to activate the steering wheel). Similar ships and boats can be found in Daggerfall and Vulkhel Guard, making it possible to travel between alliances without using wayshrines. It seems our online map already has some of these travel points marked, but they haven't been mentioned in any article so far. I've been thinking about adding this information, but I'm not really sure where it would go (ship pages? docks pages? city pages?). So far it seems that the city articles would be the best, because not all ships and not all docks are named. Any suggestions would be helpful! --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 22:44, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

I would suggest that you go for the city pages for now (the existing dock pages need to be changed, as the docks are becoming unnamed in Update 10); we can always add the info to additional pages later on, particularly ship pages if they are named. I had a look at our map but I don't actually see anything marked; maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place. --Enodoc (talk) 08:46, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
I found the markers when I looked at The Hotspur and The Lydia, two ships docked in Daggerfall's western harbour, but now that I think of it, they might have been just doors leading belowdecks, not the transit points to Davon's Watch and Vulkhel Guard. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 19:37, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Starter Islands[edit]

I was gonna put together a new zone level table using the Champion {{ESO Veteran}} param, but I remembered you mentioned that the starter islands have been restored as the starting points. Does this mean the content has been lowered from level 4 to 3 again? What about the starting cities? They were like level 6 during beta. —Legoless (talk) 22:22, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

I didn't look into it very closely, but I think all the levels have stayed the same. Shouldn't take long to find out though; I'll head over there on PTS tomorrow and have a look. --Enodoc (talk) 22:57, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
It turns out you were correct in your assumptions. After a quick check, I found enemies of Level 3 on Stros, and Level 5 on Betnikh; Level 3 on Bleakrock and Level 5 in Bal Foyen; and Level 3 on Khenarthi's. NPCs in those locations seem to range randomly from Level 1 to Level 6. Enemies immediately outside each starter city are Level 5, and NPCs in those cities mostly appear to be Level 4 or 5. I haven't been able to check quest or POI levels yet. --Enodoc (talk) 20:33, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Gold Coast Connections[edit]

Per this, would the Gold Coast Connections achievement quests count as a new story? I haven't actually completed them myself but it's to my understanding that the final one ties them together (or has a prereq at least). —Legoless (talk) 14:40, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

I haven't done them either, so I'm not sure. It's certainly possible. They count towards the Gold Coast Adventurer achievement of "14 story quests", and I'm pretty sure the last one at least has prerequisite of Debts of War and A Cordial Collaboration, but I don't know if the other four are required too. I think it really depends on how related the stories of each quest are to each other, and whether The Sweetroll Killer requires all six of them or not. --Enodoc (talk) 15:17, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
I can't see the quests having relation to one another, however what they have in common is that they all involve well-known previous characters... as the achievement hints. Sweetroll Killer involves Naryu and Razumdar who seem to have met before, they have some dialogue related to this... I'm trying to figure out the exact requirements and I do have a bunch of screenshots on PTS so I'll try to help! Tib (talk) 16:31, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
So I wasn't able to pin down any prerequisites for The Sweetroll Killer other than A Cordial Collaboration, but considering Raz's dialogue I assume Debts of War is also needed at the very least. I was able to pick up A Cordial Collaboration after emerging from the Chapel of Akatosh during Filling the Void (but before turning it in), and I had all other side quests completed by that point. The story is vaguely connected to both Naryu's and Raz's quests but it seems more like a teaser for Vvardenfell than anything else. That said, it seems to form a semblance of a quest tree (even if we've yet to work it out), it's zone-wide, and it has a related achievement, so I'd say it qualifies as a storyline. —Legoless (talk) 22:39, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Update! Well, I falsely assumed that Sweetroll Killer was the grand finale and you needed to complete everything else... but yesterday after I had completed Debts of War I accepted Cordial Collaboration. And right after that the Sweetroll Killer unlocked! I haven't done any other of those side-quests. Perhaps these two quests are the only prereq then, which could make sense as Razumdar and Naryu are involved in Sweetroll Killer? P.S. something unlocks Cordial Collaboration though, but what exactly is unclear. I was checking Naryu's location very early after the release to accept that quest but she wasn't there.
Regarding the storyline - I wouldn't mind having them listed as a story. When I said the quests are unrelated I only meant that there is no connection story-wise, but I get your point about the achievement and so on. And since you help all these characters, that kind of "unites" the stories. For the reader it could prove useful to group these together. Tib (talk) 10:34, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
Naryu isn't present when you use that escape route during A Special Request, so I assume it's tied to Brotherhood quests or rank. —Legoless (talk) 13:12, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
Oh, it would be a shame if something completely unrelated to DB has a DB prerequisite. If that is the case, it's not really a storyline of its own (as a storyline should have no prerequisites other than parts of itself). --Enodoc (talk) 13:53, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
Starting to look that way, yeah. If The Sweetroll Killer is just a quest with a three-way prerequisite rather than a zone-wide unlock, then it doesn't really fit in anywhere neatly. Dialogue in A Special Request would suggest that membership of the Brotherhood is required, regardless of what specific stage unlocks it. —Legoless (talk) 14:08, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Skill Summary change[edit]

Your recent change to the Skill Summary template has added some ugliness to the Passive skill pages, e.g. Deadly Bash. You should take those into account as well when you change that template. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 13:08, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Ah crap. Why do Passives even have the provision to include cast time and duration? Thanks for the catch! --Enodoc (talk) 13:16, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Because it's the same template? I suppose we could make separate templates for active vs. passive skills, but that ship has kind of sailed already. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 13:25, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Cat Datamining[edit]

Do you think you could find something on this cat? I had a poke around en.lang but didn't see anything. —Legoless (talk) 01:33, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Best guess: Black Cat (yes, that's the name I found, entry 394) - This black cat knows things you cannot know, and sees things you cannot see. But that is the nature of all black cats, is it not? Default name "Salem". (Immediately brings to mind reference of Sabrina, The Teenage Witch, btw.) --Enodoc (talk) 21:23, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll add it for now. —Legoless (talk) 21:29, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Shadowscale Enclave[edit]

Nice job finding the Hei-Halai map. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the map of the cave still bears this name" though. Is that from the data files, or was the location literally named "Shadowscale Enclave" on the local map at some point? Currently the cave is called "Hei-Halai" on live, so I've removed that info from the page. —Legoless (talk) 18:09, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

It's the name of the map in the data files. --Enodoc (talk) 21:19, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. —Legoless (talk) 21:22, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


I think the one misnamed is better quality, which is why I suggested merging. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:13, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

It was. I moved it to the Rawl'kha Temple name. Jeancey (talk) 22:17, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
Hmm, strange. They should have been identical. --Enodoc (talk) 22:51, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Champion Values template[edit]

Okay, so a few questions regarding the template.

  • Is it possible to make the numbers display with a single decimal place even if they're a round integers, e.g. "4.0" instead of just "4"? This is just easier to read, especially when the numbers are right-justified as they are in all of the places I'm using them. The hard part is that this would not apply to the large-value table, as that always displays as round integers. Maybe make it an optional parameter?
  • The large value table you've got, that goes to 5281, is much higher than the 240 I saw - I'm assuming this is somehow level-dependent? I got all my figures in-game on a newbie level 3 character. (Didn't have a slot free to try on a level 1.) So, not sure how to display these numbers which depend on two factors, other than a gigantic 2-D grid with level on one axis and points on the other, not sure how well that'd look.
  • Can we do similar value tables for the Perks? These are as far as I know only dependent on level, though it's possible values like Health, Magicka, and Stamina are factored in, which would severely complicate things. At least level only goes to 50, not 100. Not having a character at every level to test, it might be harder to confirm these numbers.
  • I'd like to at some point figure out how to draw an actual graph of the values. This would of course be even worse for values with 2 variables, but maybe it could be simplified by just showing one line for every 10 levels or something. Not sure how easy it'd be to actually draw such a graph using just wiki-code, that might require just using Excel and uploading an image. Not sure how valuable this would be.

TheRealLurlock (talk) 00:30, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

  • Yep, that's done.
  • I think the 5281 is a bug in Dave's data gathering. It seems to have taken the raw value, 5281, rather than the percentage, 240%. Since that's all I have, I just ran with it for now.
  • Theoretically yes, but I don't know the equation for the perks as it doesn't seem to be in the database.
  • A graph sounds like a nice idea. I don't think there's any wikicode for it though.
Enodoc (talk) 18:38, 24 September 2016 (UTC)
So - would you say that 240 is the "correct" value for all levels then? That's the number that displays for my lowbie at any rate. I should test this on characters of different levels to ensure that this will work. Not sure how you'd have to modify the formula to get it down to that range - hopefully it's just a straight multiplier. Perks are definitely going to be more difficult to figure out then. I'll ask Dave if he knows a way to acquire that data cleanly. I just tried out the graphs in Open Office (which is what I have on this laptop, I have Excel on my home machine, which is much better at this sort of thing, but I won't be back for another week). They're sort of interesting, but the graphs are mostly just a straight progression except at the beginning where it's a bit steeper. The lower-value graphs have a bit more of a pronounced curve to them, but after about 20 points they all just look like a nearly straight line. Not sure how much value there is to these. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 19:01, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Amazing Job[edit]

You have been given a plateful of cookies!

Fantastic work with the Crown Store overhaul! The functionality is pretty amazing ^^ —Legoless (talk) 13:44, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Just took a look and whoa, this is really good indeed. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 17:53, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! It was a good bit of fun trying to get it all to function nicely together, and still be relatively easy to edit      :)     --Enodoc (talk) 20:11, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Template Work[edit]

Hey Enodoc. Alarra asked me to do this a couple of days ago, but I've been having a bad couple of days and now I've got a killer headache. If you feel like doing it, go nuts. If not, I'll try and get to it tomorrow. Thanks! Robin Hood  (talk) 23:30, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Done! Hopefully that's what she's looking for; let me know if it needs further tweaks! --Enodoc (talk) 12:29, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
Thank you! Robin Hood  (talk) 18:51, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
Thank you so much! :) We've started updating the card pages. We're not sure about the whole Obtainable category thing now that we're seeing it live; I created a Community Portal discussion about it, and your input would probably be helpful since you'd probably know best how the sort of pages I'm envisioning there would work. Thanks again! ~ Alarra (talk) 07:43, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
OK, I'll have a look! I don't have Legends, so anything I say would be based on functionality only. --Enodoc (talk) 08:50, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello! Kinmune had a good suggestion for the template: could you make Obtainable default to "yes", similar to the Unique parameter? There are far less unobtainable ones than obtainable ones, so it would save a little bit of time to not have to add that extra param for each card. Also, based on our discussion in the CP, probably should just do an "Obtainable" category rather than type-subtype-obtainable. Thanks! ~ Alarra (talk) 02:27, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
Done! --Enodoc (talk) 10:35, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Online:Storm on the Horizon[edit]

The :Captain Tremouille in Vulkhel Guard and the quest stages regarding him are gone. Checked several times. --Rhynchelma (talk) 21:31, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Yeah I came to the same conclusion. I've removed him from the quest givers and taken all the related quest stages out. Do you happen to know whether that change happened with One Tamriel, or beforehand? I know he was still there after Update 10 (when the starter islands were reintroduced as the ending point of Soul Shriven in Coldharbour) but I don't think I checked between Updates 11 (SotH) and 12 (OT). --Enodoc (talk) 21:59, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Yeah One Tamriel when start moved to Ruined Tower. --Rhynchelma (talk) 22:00, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Random Letters[edit]

The King Maxevian texts aren't actually "random letters". They are historical and noteworthy, relative to the timeline of ESO, which is why they can be in the lorespace. They will be referenced in at least two lore pages.

On another note, its probably not best practice to leave passive aggressive rhetorical comments in the edit summary if you have an issue regarding my edits. My talk page is just there and I'm always happy to justify my edits.

Also, I'm well aware of the additional jobs needing done when adding a batch of new lore texts (such as adding them to the A-Z as you mentioned). I did, after all, update Lore:Books by Author and Lore:Books by Subject with almost every new ESO book. As before, I'll get around to doing these jobs after adding the rest of the missing lorebooks. Thanks!! --Jimeee (talk) 10:19, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Ah sorry about that, I probably shouldn't have been editing last night at all (too tired), and you're right that I should have talked to you about it directly. I had a quick read of those letters but I don't see where the historical significance is; one is just asking for relief, while the other is a note about opposing the construction of Orsinium, which is relevant to the time period of ESO, but I don't see its overall historical significance. As a basis, they seem similar in context to things like Courier's Letter, Necromancer's Letter and Thalmor Orders; relevant to the time period, but not historically significant.
As for the A-Z in general, I'm afraid I'm a bit tetchy on the subject, considering there were 443 books missing from it when I went through it in August, some of which have been in lorespace since ESO launched. That's over 2 years where perfectly valid books were missing from our primary library list, and I don't want to see that happen again. After that, I dreaded going through the secondary lists to check whether they were complete, as one depends on the text actually having an author, and the other is completely subjective depending on who is updating it. To that end, I would encourage a best practice in which when a new book is added to lorespace, it is immediately added to all appropriate lists.
This of course eventually boils down to an inherent problem with the site as a whole, in that we have lists of things all over the place, most of which are manually maintained. Forget one of them, and that's something else missing from a list that nobody will notice until much later. Maybe we should look into making more of our lists automated, using things like DPL and Semantic, and then some of these problems would go away. --Enodoc (talk) 11:55, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
No problem. The Maxevian letters (to me) collectively build a narrative surrounding the rise and fall of the Pale Watch. Yes, it an insignificant faction in the greater scheme of things, but its a good little story wrapped up in a regular old dungeon. Each letter and note gives us a little piece of their story arc. Lore:Letter to King Maxevian paints a very clear picture about the morale of the Pale Watch and the beginning of their downfall. Lore:Watcher's Report gives us the insight that after all those years of being forgotten, they Pale Watch still desperately clung onto their oath. I think its these little details about their motivations and thoughts that really flesh out a lore page. Its easy enough to not do all that work, and just stick a "Events of ESO" ref on a lore article, but I'm trying to get away from that on the lorepages I write, and I believe lore fans love well referenced articles.
I can empathize wanting to keep the A-Z up to date. I would have personally took that job on when the ESO books came out, but I decided to focus on keeping Lore:Books by Author and Lore:Books by Subject up to date. I know the Books by Subject list is a popular page among the lore community, so it was a priority. Also, I was trying to keep track of several hundred books on my various sandboxes, so including another list to that project would have killed me. I'll include the A-Z list now because the book batches are much smaller than before. I'm surprised there isn't a wiki script that can look at the lorebooks category and generate an A-Z list automatically though. All this list work is tedious and detracts from actually filling out the ESO/Lore articles. --Jimeee (talk) 12:38, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
There is. Or at least, there nearly is. DPL is specifically designed for A-Z listing for categories, and Semantic has a load of useful functions, but I don't know if DPL can generate output using our Lore Book templates. Regardless, we don't actually have DPL or Semantic installed here. As part of Meta, we do have #listsaved, but again, that doesn't quite have all the necessary bits, as it can currently only look through entire namespaces for specific #saved values. I agree completely on not wanting "Events of ESO" references, as that's not particularly useful, but references are allowed to link outside of lorespace. Thanks for the background on the potential use of those letters too. --Enodoc (talk)

The exit portal from Bad Man's Hallows[edit]

Hey! I'm roaming through the category of images with UI elements, and went to check this image [1] in Bad Man's Hallows, but it seems the exit portal has been moved. It now appears next to that little shrine. I mean.. should I flag this image for deletion or replace it? It's just a standard portal now, but I can upload the image if needed. Tib (talk) 19:15, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Might as well just delete it. As a standard portal it's not really noteworthy or tricky to locate any more. --Enodoc (talk) 19:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Oki, I'll put it up for deletion! Tib (talk) 16:21, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Online Place Summary (3)[edit]

In your latest change, I noticed that the switch you changed now ends with an empty |Places entry. That would seem not to serve any purpose in the switch's current form. Is that just a leftover, or was that intended to do something more? Or am I misunderstanding? Robin Hood  (talk) 17:26, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

That's just the default result, without directly using #default. --Enodoc (talk) 19:04, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
D'oh! I wasn't thinking clearly. :) Thanks. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:10, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Madness in coldharbour[edit]

Hey, sorry about that. That one was my fault. I saw it in some list and never actually checked if it was a real quest. I always meant to go back and doublecheck, but I kept forgetting! Jeancey (talk) 16:16, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Ha, no worries. --Enodoc (talk) 18:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


Just a note: If you see something going on in the ESO community that might not be as easily seen by others due to your ambassador position, feel free to let me know and I'll pass it along our social media/news outlets. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 15:56, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Sure, will do! They don't usually tell us anything special or noteworthy though. In fact, they haven't really interacted with the Ambassador group for months. --Enodoc (talk) 17:57, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Need a second set of eyes[edit]

While working on another project, I came across the DaysSince template and decided to update it. For the most part, it's working fine, but for reasons I can't figure out, the second and successive calls on a page are producing wildly inaccurate results. As you can see in my sandboxes (subtemplate, main template, test bed), where I've stripped out most of the #expr calls for debugging purposes, what's happening is that on successive calls, the {{{year}}} values are being combined with one another to produce abnormally large numbers. The same thing isn't happening for {{{month}}}, though. (Note: it's less apparent, but is happening there too.) I've been banging my head against this for some time now, and I can't figure anything out. Does anything strike you as out of the ordinary? My guess is that it's the internal template cache that's actually the problem somehow, I'm just not sure why it's manifesting in this case. Robin Hood  (talk) 22:13, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

The workaround seems to be not to reuse the same set of variables (see this change), I'm just not sure why it was happening in the first place. Robin Hood  (talk) 22:36, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
The only thing I can think of is that maybe successive calls were using the preexisting {{{year}}} from the first template because, since that was defined as #local, it was overriding the {{{year}}} call in the second template. I don't think that quite makes sense though. --Enodoc (talk) 09:10, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Savant Christmas Poster[edit]

As a guild officer, you're entitled to one of Dave's Christmas posters. Just email me or him with a postal address if you'd like to receive one. —Legoless (talk) 21:59, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Cool, thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 09:08, 13 December 2016 (UTC)


Only noticed the WIP template on Furniture Crafting after editing. Hopefully didn't mess you up too much... — TheRealLurlock (talk) 17:49, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

No worries. I put that there mainly because it's essentially a complete mess. There was absolutely no work put into it all, just copied straight from the database as a baseline. Eventually I'll split it off into pages for each craft, but first I want to see how they compare together as a whole. --Enodoc (talk) 18:04, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Use of #lsth for notes transclusion[edit]

All due respect, that is not a proper use of that feature. It's a hack that's very error-prone and subject to all kinds of complications. If you want to copy some boilerplate notes onto multiple pages, just create a Notes template, as we've done in many places. #lsth should be used only for its intended purpose, which is extracting relevant entries from a list. If you're going to copy the whole list every time, there's just no need for it, and you're just using an overly powerful and complicated tool to solve a very simple problem. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 18:52, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

#lsth is specifically designed for transcluding sections by headings. There's nothing in the lst documentation that says it is only for lists; on the contrary, labeled section transclusion is intended for small portions of large pages, which is exactly what the Notes section is. I can create it as a Notes template if that's really necessary, but the intention was to avoid creating a template for it, as that seemed overkill. --Enodoc (talk) 19:02, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
If anything is overkill, it's the #lsth method. You're solving a simple problem in the most complicated way possible. The problems with transclusions are clear evidence of the drawbacks of this method. If it were possible for it to respect noinclude and includeonly tags, there might be a valid use-case for it, but as-is, it just makes editing more complicated for future editors. A notes template is a simple solution to the problem that has none of the drawbacks and we've used them in countless places on the site, so it's really the better way to go for this I think. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 19:46, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
I understand both points of view here, and I agree that #lsth is indeed intended to transclude a section by name and we probably don't use that feature enough. But the advantage to Lurlock's suggestion of using a dedicated template is that a larger page doesn't have to be parsed into sections before it's transcluded. So, from that perspective, I think the notes template is probably the better choice. I'm curious about this mention of using #lsth to extract entries from a list, though...where are we doing that? That, to me, sounds like something we should be using MetaTemplate for, but I'd have to see what we're doing in order to be sure. Robin Hood  (talk) 21:12, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Template done: {{Online Furnishings Notes}}. Thanks guys! --Enodoc (talk) 23:57, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Image Requests (Removal)[edit]

This is a courtesy message to say I've removed your request for pre-Update 10 images from last May. Any remaining missing ones are, as you said, now unachievable. Legoless seems to have got them anyway (rather than requested them as I mistakenly read). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:22, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the note! The reason I'd left it initially was in case he wanted to get the post-Update 10 images as well, but then I just forgot about it. Not really important though, as those can still be done at any time. Thanks again! --Enodoc (talk) 23:24, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Uutak Mythos Page[edit]

I wouldn't mind at all, and you guys can definitely attempt making the page and I can come straighten it out later when I get the time. I recommend reading the Uutak Mythos Bible if you want to get the rundown on everything inportant. IceFireWarden (talk) 03:32, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Will the real Holomay please stand up?[edit]

Just confirming that I'm the same Holomay who has joined the UESP Discord Server about 2 hrs ago. :) Holomay (talk) 14:14, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Great, thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 14:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

ESO Quest Rewards[edit]

I just did a dry run on the ESO quest rewards we were talking about last night. Most of them were fine, but about 50 or so had issues, which the bot spat out to its results page. If you want to do anything about any of those before the real run, go nuts. If not, let me know, and I'll go ahead with the run with everything as is. Robin Hood  (talk) 03:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I updated a few of the more obscure ones. All of the other invalid values should work if you just use the first value (whoever put in the other values had a 10% or 11% bonus applied to their reward for being an ESO Plus member and/or an Imperial; i.e., 664 and 670 should be 604, 414 and 418 should be 377, 332 and 335 should be 302, 166 and 167 should be 151). For the two with multiple levels, I would suggest using the lower one, vl. Thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 13:07, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

"For Honor" quest?[edit]

Hey Enodoc, I was looking at the Vivec City page, and noticed that you had added a (redlinked) quest called "For Honor". Given its similarity (in name) to For Glory, I just wanted to make sure that you meant what you had typed, and to ask if you have any idea how to acquire the quest, or what it roughly entails (so I can look into adding it, if nothing else).
Thanks, gelza1Talk Cont 06:10, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Jeancey and I have concluded that it was either changed from what it was in beta, or we just got it wrong. There doesn't appear to be any For Honor quest now. --Enodoc (talk) 16:46, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
All right. I wouldn't have thought anything of it, but the names were very close. I'll remove the "For Honor" quest from the page, then. gelza1Talk Cont 17:10, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Interactive ESO Transport Map[edit]

Hey Enodoc! I saw in your sandbox that in December you were working on a interactive version of the ESO transport map. I think this was a great idea, even more so now after ESOMW added so many entangled and not very logical travel routes, which made the map much more cluttered and less readable. If the user could click a town to see the details of routes available from there, it would make the map much more useful. Are you still planning to release that feature someday? --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 20:14, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

When I have time I'd like to carry on with it, yeah. I'd forgotten it was there for a while though! --Enodoc (talk) 11:13, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Coldharbour Surreal Estate[edit]

Hey Enodoc, why have you removed the style of the Coldharbour Estate from Online:Player Housing? On the PTS it looks Nibenese, like the rest of the Hollow City. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 21:27, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

You can't see the house on PTS. It's just an inactive portal that you can't enter. The only visual we have of the location is this picture, which has no structures in it at all. --Enodoc (talk) 22:18, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
You can see it pretty easily. The trick is that it is not on the ground, but rather on two floating islands high above the marked location. Try it yourself :P It's even easier to see it from the entrance to the Fighters Guild. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 06:28, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
Hmm, I hadn't considered the islands were related to the house. What makes you think that? Those islands don't look a bit like the screenshot. I guess I should check on Live whether the islands are there or not. --Enodoc (talk) 09:39, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
I just did that. You were right, they were already there. When I looked at the Hollow City map, the islands really looked like they had been added recently, so I assumed they were new. Of course this does not rule out the possibility that they added them silently at some point before, or are going to repurpose these structures into a player house... but in light of that information it is of course better to leave the style box empty. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 17:53, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Clockwork City[edit]

What exactly did they say on ESO Live? It is really weird as Barilzar himself explicitly states that it is the real thing in some optional and easy-to-miss dialogue during Divine Restoration. He says that "in fact, the entire city is down here", and after having seen yourself shrink, you can actually ask him "Did we really shrink into a miniature city?" and "How did we get in here? The city was so small!". I can't find his exact answers right now, but I remember that he confirmed it, which is also reflected in the book he wrote. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 20:39, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Timestamp 12:58
Leamon Tuttle (Writer-Designer, Main Story): "Looks like we're starting out down in a place called Seht's Vault. This is deep deep (...) down beneath Mournhold and this is the way you can enter Sotha Sil's Clockwork City."
(discussion on the armour Jeremy's character is wearing)
(Gina explains Clockwork City is a new zone)
(discussion on the DLC reward pet)
Jess: "So this is the upcoming (...) PvE story quest zone?"
LT: "Right, much like Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood."
LT: "So those guys are Factotums, they are mechanical servitors of Sotha Sil. And they see you coming and they're gonna part the way and let you go to the gate to the Clockwork City." (emphasis his)
Gina: "So you can't actually walk to Clockwork, right? You have to..."
LT: "No. Clockwork City exists outside of space and time. Um.. This is... yeah, I know, it gets weird man, it gets way weirder than that."
LT: "So anyway. This is the... basically the Clockwork City is... for what people think it's a ... it's a city in miniature inside of this snowglobe that's deep under Mournhold."
Jess: "So is that actually Clockwork City? Are you getting like shrunk down like "Honey I Shrink the Kids"?"
LT: "Yes, that is a super good question. It is and is not the Clockwork City. It's a representation. And also like I said, the Clockwork City exists in interdimensional space. So it's there and also not there. It's a lot of crazy questions that don't frankly have very many answers in Clockwork City."
Jekerl (Jeremy Sera, Lead Content Designer): "If you have done Morrowind you will have seen this before. If you haven't this will be your first time."
Jess: "There is some connection in the story between the two?"
Jekerl: "Yes. Morrowind is Part 1 of this story. I won't spoil it and say how many parts there are, but this is the continuation of that story."
(Gina contemplates kicking the city-globe over)
Timestamp 16:25.
Enodoc (talk) 21:26, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! This is a very weird statement. This is more of an issue for the lore page than the Online article, but since it is said to be "there and not there", maybe it would be possible to work out a wording which does not dismiss the shrinking concept altogether? I get the impression that this aspect has been really emphasized by ESOMW sources. How about stating that the small globe was the "physical manifestation" of the "interdimensional realm" or something like this? --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 21:38, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Go with "representation" (rather than "manifestation") and I think that would work. --Enodoc (talk) 22:40, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


For the spam. But on the good news - I'm over 4,000 edits now :) Timeoin (talk) 11:17, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

But on a serious note. thanks for the blockers tip. And have a good night! Timeoin (talk) 11:18, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Legend stories with unnecessary red link categories[edit]

Hey Enodoc, all The Fall of the Dark Brotherhood (FotDB) story pages (for example this one Temple of Akatosh) do have red links to the categories "Legends Quests with non-4:3 Images" and "Legends Quests with incorrectly-named Images". I think this is due to this template: Legends Quest Header, but I can not figure out what exactly would cause it. The FotDB stories use different images then the original Forgotten Hero campaign and thus these categories are unnecessary. Could you take a look at them to see if you can fix them? Thanks in advance! --Ilaro (talk) 15:28, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Oh sorry yeah, I was going to look at that and then forgot about it. It comes from {{Parameter Check}} which is included within Legends Quest Header. The simplest solution would be just to disable Parameter Check, but I'm not sure whether it does some useful things too, or if we could manage without it. --Enodoc (talk) 15:44, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Would it be possible to add |ratio=0 to Parameter Check to disable the ratio check in Legends Quest Header? I am a bit afraid to change the template on my own before I'll make a mess of everything. If that isn't possible it would probably a better idea to completely remove it, because it looks quite unpleasant now. --Ilaro (talk) 19:31, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
That might work, but for now if you want all the other stuff Parameter Check can do, it may work if we just set |ratiomin=0.5 And |ratiomax=2, and then we shouldn't need to change the way Parameter Check at all. --Enodoc (talk) 00:31, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
I tried to disable image checks completely, but then I ran into the problem that the category "Legends article that Needs Images" was displayed and I couldn't get it away. So I disabled Parameter Check for now. We can always add it again if someone thinks it is necessary. --Ilaro (talk) 09:22, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Deprecated Loading Screens[edit]

I have the original purchased release of the Imperial Edition installed off disc, and a copy of the base game only (no DLC) installed from download from ESO servers yesterday (June 23, 2018). I see many of the deprecated loading screens in the disc installation, but some I don't seem to have, such as the Imperial Sewers - I'm guessing that those originally came with the Imperial DLC. My current downloaded installation seems to have all the DLC loading screens, even though I haven't actually purchased the DLC, so it seems that the purchased game includes all resources for all current DLC, only activating the DLC when you buy it, but any deprecated DLC screens were removed from the game files in an update/patch. Because the images on this wiki are JPG instead of being lossless or original files, my question is: do you have the original depot dat/mnf files from the game state when DLC were released, or do you have the original extracted DDS files? Do you know if the Gold Edition discs include the deprecated assets? Relight (talk) 19:36, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't have the Gold Edition, but my guess is that it probably doesn't include anything other than the base game either, and gets all the remaining assets from its initial patch download. We have all the loading screens sorted by update available at, but again, they have already been converted from DDS and are in jpg format. Dave would have had the original dat/mnf files and the DDS before he updated the esofiles server, but I couldn't say for sure whether he keeps them or not. Are you on our Discord ( If so, someone there may know if these are available anywhere. --Enodoc (talk) 18:07, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Enodoc - I've found out that Gold Edition discs are actually build 2.0.4 from April 2015 (despite being released in 2016) and game calls itself "Tamriel Unlimited" when installing. The Gold Edition discs DO include the deprecated sewer loading screens, but don't include the deprecated "Imperial City" loading screen - I still would like to find that one, and there may be others once I do a complete inventory. Can you shoot me a message on the Discord re: which Dave? There are multiple Daves :) Relight (talk) 19:09, 30 June 2018 (UTC)


Arguing with The Silencer is the main reason that I went inactive here. Well, plus the fact that I never played ESO. However, I will try to answer your question.

I started trying to clean up the Thane pages. When I started on them, they each had a list of favor quests that you could do in order to advance the Thane quest. At the time, I didn't know what made a quest a favor quest other than the effect on the Thane quest.

Some of the confusion stems from the Riften Thane quest. It works fundamentally different from the other eight.

In the other eight, the Thane quest advances based on disposition. Every time the PC befriends a citizen of the hold, you get a +1 on the hold's Thane quest. This includes Whiterun, but only if it is ruled by the Stormcloaks.

Therefore, the favor quests, the ones that advance the Thane quest, are the ones that affect disposition.

Favor quests also permit marriage, taking low value items, and so on.

It's an open question whether you consider other quests that affect disposition to be favor quests. There are some that affect multiple people; the Dibella quest in Markarth befriends four of the priestesses when you complete it, nearly enabling Thane status by itself.

Riften works differently. There is a specified list of required quests. You have to do five from the list, just getting five friends isn't enough. Which means that gather wheat, for example, doesn't advance it like it does in every other hold.

I cleaned up a lot of the favor quests when I was working on the Thane pages. I didn't define them though. Still, I would say that the disposition change is indeed a requirement. You can make the argument that they should be restricted to minor quests, and I wouldn't argue. I don't think I'd bother with the distinction myself though. --Morrolan (talk) 20:07, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Great, thanks for your input! --Enodoc (talk) 22:10, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
I noticed you made a number of updates to the Thane pages. On the subject of the Investor perk and friendship, you can in fact befriend a new shop owner with it after the old one dies, and they both count towards the Thane quest even if you killed the original owner. Also, every giver of a favor quest spends at least some time in places where you can talk to them without trespassing, but for a lot of them, when you haven't befriended them yet, entering their homes counts as trespassing and while you're in there you can't get them to give you the quest. So maybe you should give their public locations, instead of their homes. --Morrolan (talk) 05:11, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


Modspaces for both these games have now been created. Do you want to create the main mod pages in these two namespaces and link them on the Mods page? Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:58, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good... remind me after Gamescom if I forget! --Enodoc (talk) 20:19, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Wayback Machine[edit]

Hey Enodoc, I noticed you cited an archived web page on Lore:Western Reach. Nice find! However, these kinds of external references aren't a great idea in the longterm, and it would be far better if you could instead copy any required information to the wiki, similar to our Archive, Archive, or various archives such as the Oblivion:Mehrunes' Razor page. For copyright purposes it's best to stick only to the lore-relevant info in a plain text format, although I'm sure this isn't a concern with the Vir2L website. —Legoless (talk) 17:10, 28 March 2020 (GMT)

Yep, definitely agree on the longterm stability of those things. For now I was just re-adding what Zeb had put there before and then removed during the Lore:Bend'r-mahk discussion. --Enodoc (talk) 17:13, 28 March 2020 (GMT)
I went ahead and created Archive. —Legoless (talk) 17:27, 28 March 2020 (GMT)


Thought I'd pick your brain over something - I've just added Mzark Cavern to {{Online Subzones}} and it's kind of bugging me since it's now listed under Chapters rather than Pact despite being part of the basegame.

This got me thinking about how best to approach Blackreach in general. I think it's fair to say Mzark Cavern is a region of Blackreach, considering it now shows up on the Blackreach "overworld" map. However, it is not part of Greymoor Caverns, which is the Chapter-specific area that is usually treated as part of Western Skyrim for all intents and purposes. This confusion will get further compounded with the introduction of the Q4 DLC area. The concept of a Blackreach zone ends up looking something like:

  • Mzark Cavern (Eastmarch)
  • Greymoor Caverns (Western Skyrim) - split into Dark Moon Grotto, Dusktown Cavern, Greymoor Cavern, Lightless Hollow
  • Q4 area (The Reach)

It's a little confusing that Blackreach has a subregion called Greymoor Caverns which in turn has a subregion called Greymoor Cavern. However, it seems to me like we should be making the distinction between "Blackreach: Greymoor Caverns" (this map, i.e. Chapter content) and "Blackreach" (this map). Do you think a split is in order? My thinking is that we can categorise Greymoor locations as being part of the zone "Blackreach: Greymoor Caverns" (as it shows up in the journal), while Mzark can continue to be categorized under Eastmarch. ON:Blackreach can then serve as some kind of meta-zone page. Alternatively, we could bite the bullet by categorising Mzark Cavern as part of the Blackreach zone rather than Eastmarch and then lumping in the Q4 places onto the same page. The latter sounds very messy to me.

As for {{Online Subzones}}, it might make the most sense to place Blackreach under Neutral given that its constituent regions don't fit neatly into the Pact/Chapter/DLC split. What do you think? —⁠Legoless (talk) 21:26, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I would suggest that Mzark Cavern doesn't count as a Region, due to it being a Dungeon rather than a section of a Zone like the others. Overall I don't see the need right now to make Greymoor Caverns separate from the rest of Blackreach, as the stuff we would include on it is just a combination of the stuff we need to include on the individual cavern pages, and therefore seems unnecessary. It then doesn't make much difference whether we have the four caverns as sub-regions of Blackreach or Greymoor Caverns. The quests that are currently there probably shouldn't be there anyway as they are listed under Western Skyrim in-game, not Blackreach. But I would agree with ON:Blackreach itself as a meta-page; the question is whether Greymoor Caverns needs to be separate from it, or whether the four caverns being separate already is enough. We could also consider not taking Blackreach as a zone in that sense at all (since the quests are already excluded), and putting the four individual caverns under Western Skyrim instead. Many options, and until Q4 comes out and we find out whether the Q4 Blackreach counts as a Zone or not, I don't think we will have a definite answer. --Enodoc (talk) 21:44, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Eastmarch Greymoor map.jpg
The way Mzark Cavern is set up is identical to how Greymoor Caverns functions though. See for example the updated map, which includes a link to Eastmarch, and vice versa on the Eastmarch map (see thumbnail). If we consider Greymoor Caverns to be separate from Western Skyrim, we have to consider Mzark Cavern to be separate from Eastmarch in the same way; both feed into the new Blackreach underworld map, which invites comparisons to the Aurbis or Tamriel maps in terms of navigation. It's not just a regular dungeon if it's being treated like a separate zone from Eastmarch on the map.
It would be good to settle the categorisation prior to Q4 coming out, and there's already a clear in-game format here to follow. I think we need to copy the Blackreach map if we want to be accurate in how these pages are categorised, and that map treats Greymoor Caverns and Mzark Cavern as the two regions of Blackreach. In comparison, the four areas within Greymoor Caverns don't even have their own separate maps. —⁠Legoless (talk) 00:07, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
On the other hand, Mzark Cavern is not listed in the Zone list, and Greymoor Caverns is, and that's primarily what defines the difference on whether something counts as a separate Zone. (Although we still don't list Online:Norg-Tzel as a separate Zone despite it appearing in the Zone list.) In that respect, Mzark Cavern is functioning more like Eyevea or any other city map in that it's a map you can click on from a Zone but isn't a Zone itself. The four areas within Greymoor Caverns don't have their own maps, but neither do any other regions, so treating them like regions is still valid. If the only way to keep Mzark Cavern primarily under Eastmarch is to put Greymoor Caverns as part of Western Skyrim, then I'd rather do that, but it's not accurate to say they're treated identically.
Don't forget also that the loading screen name of Mzark Cavern is still just Blackreach, so nothing can be completely consistent. --Enodoc (talk) 07:25, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
That's true. Although, the fact that Greymoor Caverns is what appears on the zone list is another reason to treat it as the zone name rather than simply "Blackreach". I guess it's less about consistency and more about trying to properly separate content based on which DLC/Chapter it's from. —⁠Legoless (talk) 07:54, 15 June 2020 (UTC)


Hi Enodoc,
Could you explain why you think my recent edits on Lore:Cyrodiil constituted original research? I can't find anything in the UESPWiki:Policies and Guidelines on it. Are there policies on original resource, reliable sources, verifiability, notability etc., and if so, where can I find them? Are they as strict as Wikipedia? I'm new to UESP, but I've got a lot of experience with Wikipedia. Greetings, 21:40, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Whenever we don't have policies of our own, we typically fall back to using Wikipedia's policies, at least in spirit, since the mechanics aren't always the same between us. In the case of original research, Wikipedia's rules would apply. The additions you made were based on someone's research, not on in-game or reliable out-of-game sources like a developer's official statement or similar. Given that, even if it seems likely to be correct, it's not from a reliable source, so it's considered original research. Robin Hood(talk) 09:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
In addition, the rules about lore can be found at UESPWiki:Lore and is also the UESPWiki:Style Guide. Maybe not the most convenient places to find, but we do have some strict guidelines here and there. --Ilaro (talk) 14:46, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Right yeah sorry, not original research on your part, but on the part of "TheInducer" who is a Reddit user and not an Elder Scrolls developer. The Lore guidelines which Ilaro linked above goes through what is considered original research and what is a valid official source. --Enodoc (talk) 19:39, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
If so, wouldn't that mean that, say, the entire article General:Etymology is original research? All 'sources used' refer to general etymology websites that have nothing to do with The Elder Scrolls. -- SkyrimScholar (talk) 13:00, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes, General:Etymology is original research and is noted as being subjective on the page. It deals with real world etymologies. That sort of content is rarely appropriate for a lore page. —⁠Legoless (talk) 14:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Ah, thanks, that makes sense. -- SkyrimScholar (talk) 15:13, 28 October 2021 (UTC)