UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 27

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Semi Protection
This is an archive of past UESPWiki:Community Portal discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Reddit Post on UESP

An interesting post on Reddit-Skyrim that discusses the UESP and other ES wikis. A lot of good feedback and comments there. While I don't think we should try to please everyone there is always room for improvements. -- Daveh 13:28, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Draugr Eyes Glitch?

Hey, I have a problem. My character seems to have acquired a second set of eyeballs not dissimilar to a Draugr's. Here's a link to some screenshots I took to better illustrate the problem:

http://imgur.com/a/dNi3a#0

Basically, I'm playing a level 20 female Bosmer theif character. After finishing the Meridia quest in one go and fast-traveling back to town I noticed my face was glowing and, upon further examination, discovered I had a bad case of what I could only call the Angry Eyes. I think it might have been related to the Corrupted Shades since I had never encountered them before and their eyes glow, but mine are almost exactly like a common Draugr's, swishy blue glow and all. I'd only used one console command before this point, TCL, to get out of a ravine while a dragon was blasting me. It was long before the Angry Eyes hit me though, so I don't think it's related. (I hope.) Yes, I've tried restarting. I'm playing on a PC.

Sorry if I edited/posted this incorrectly. I've never had an original problem like this before and despite having used UESP extensively in the past, I've never had an account/posted. Thus I've never had a chance to say thanks for making this such awesome Wiki! --Salamander 04:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

My Altmer mage contracted the same thing. I first noticed it when he was chopping wood... It's a Mer thing? I have no idea. ServusTriviae 22:09, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


It can't be only a mer thing, im a Nord level 34, after i cleared out Otar(dragon priest)'s crypt, and taking his two keys (black skull with draugr eyes) i had contracted the same case of glowing blue eyes, although it doesn't look that bad on my character i think it could get a bit annoying... (one-eyed + vamp eye + draugr glow = ???) so someone please look for a solution. Cos it does seem like this could become a common problem, seeing as encountering draugrs are common in skyrim. -Anonymous 21:20 13 December 2011

I'm also a female Bosmer thief (level 31) and I have the same issue. I've read that it's due to the Aura Whisper shout, I kinda like it though. -Anonymous 10:58 27 December 2011

Um... source... ServusTriviae 17:57, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Have you tried going to a shrine to receive a blessing, etc? --Choicemade 09:35, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Like I said, I only read it that doesn't mean I know it to be true: just that I saw it. Anyways, I saw it on the wiki here http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Bugs_(Skyrim) - Anonymous 10:19, 30 December 2011

Opinions on adding a page with list of all creature base IDs

Basically, an ordered, easy to use list of base ID's for every creature/animal in the game so that they can be easily accessed for use with the player.placeatme spawn method. I can't find anything like it on the UESP currently, and the Elder Scrolls Wikia has a page with only a handful. I'm sure with enough people contributing we can find the base IDs AND all variations for every creature/animal in the game. I've already got the skeletons and dragon priests done. Not difficult to do, just tedious.

So, do people think this would be a useful list to have? --LJGB 20:07, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

That information belongs on the creature pages, in a similar format to Oblivion:Undead, for example. And it has already been added to individual named creatures, e.g., SR:Paarthurnax (dragon) or SR:Frost. But we definitely do not want a separate page just dedicated to FormIDs. If you would like to start adding to the appropriate pages, feel free. Although I'm not sure tracking down the IDs in game is necessary a good use of time. I already have a list of every creature name and FormID in the game, and could dump a crude table into a sandbox by just copying-and-pasting the info I already have. I haven't started to work on a properly formatted table yet, mainly just because it seems like a lower priority than the pages I have been working on. But if you'd find an info dump useful, let me know. --NepheleTalk 01:25, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for replying, Nephele! That information would be very useful to me! I'm specifically looking for the BaseIDs as they are what is used in conjunction with the placeatme command, but whatever you have would help me out. Yes, I realise that the IDs should be on the individual creature pages, but this whole thing started because I wanted to spawn a skeleton, and all I could find on here was a single sentence explaining that "Skeletons are the reanimated bones of the dead..." with no technical information. I suppose I don't need a list specifically dedicated to IDs, but it'd be handy for spawning stuff instead of searching for the individual creature. For example, I want to spawn a skeleton, you Ctrl+F 'skeleton' and it finds it on the list and all of the variations too, (e.g. unarmed, with sword, with war axe, with greatsword, conjurer etc.) but that doesn't have to be on the UESP I guess, could be hosted elsewhere, just thought it'd be something the site could benefit from. Anyway, thanks so much for replying, and that info you have would be useful! --LJGB 20:06, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I just dumped a list of stuff at User:Nephele/Sandbox/8. It contains a lot of stuff that you're not interested in -- since there's no actual distinction between NPCs and creatures in the game data. But it should be an easier way to look up IDs. Eventually tables with more info will be generated for the creature pages, comparable to what's been done for Oblivion. --NepheleTalk 03:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Ahh, thanks! With this info I can create a table for spawning that specifies what the differences between each creature are. Just requires a little refining, hehe. Thanks again. --LJGB 04:14, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Opinions on Adding a Quest List Showing the PC Console Quest ID

It seems like an interesting idea. I would suggest bringing it up on UESP's Community Portal (the easiest way to get to it is to click on the link in the "community" section of the UESP sidebar). My vote would be in favour of such a cross-reference system. :)

Kalis Agea

> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 17:51:04 -0500
> To: Kalis Agea
> Subject: UESPWiki e-mail
> From: fredegetz@yahoo.com
> 
> I created a cross-reference tying the quest list in UESPWiki to their respective PC console quest IDs.
  Do you think it would be of value to others? Would anyone want to add it to UESPWiki? I currently have
  the list as a table in a Word document.
> 
> Siddhartha
> fredegetz@yahoo.com
--Siddhartha 00:44, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

— Unsigned comment by Fredegetz (talkcontribs) on 29 November 2011

The quest IDs are already shown on each individual quest page. What else exactly do you think needs to be done? --NepheleTalk 01:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I find it convenient to have the full list of quest names and their respective PC console quest IDs on one screen/printout rather than bouncing back and forth between the quest list and each individual quest page. I now keep the enhanced printout next to my computer. It's very handy for me -- just sayin'

--Siddhartha 05:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Skyrim Race inconsistencies

Alot of pages have their races listed as something random, for example The Caller is listed as a fox and there is alot more pages with wonky races, is this as it is actually defined in the Console, or is this vandalism/misinformation? (Eddie The Head 10:07, 2 December 2011 (UTC))

Looking at the edit history there is no evidence that the race was ever changed since creation, so it seems that is how the bot created it. (ETA) If that is really how they are defined in the console, and not just some odd bug...maybe someone decided the game needed a few kitsune. --Aphotic Phoenix 11:13, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
It's not vandalism and it's not - as far as I can tell - a mistake. Without the CS to confirm we can't be 100% sure, but there is a "Fox" race, and The Caller and others have it as their race. It's quite possible there's some weirdness going on that means we shouldn't use that value in certain cases, but it seems to be the right value. It's certainly not vandalism. rpeh •TCE 18:19, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Here's a list of a lot of the creatures/animals in the game: User:Nephele/Sandbox/8 'Fox' is probably the most common race. Town guards have a race of 'Dremora', and some female characters are listed as being male. Strange, but there's probably a technical reason. --LJGB 00:47, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
I suspect that Fox might be some kind of "flexible" race, and similarly that Dremora might be a flexible class.
Of the 617 creatures with Fox listed as the race, 615 also have an entry under template (TPLT), and the two exceptions are the true Foxes. So I'm guessing that when actual instances of these creatures/NPCs are created, the game overwrites "Fox" with whatever race is assigned by the template. In many cases, the template is a leveled list (or nested set of leveled lists). For example, the way the Bandit Chief template works, the resulting NPC can come from any playable race. So this flexible option allows them to just have one Bandit Chief definition, instead of ten to cover each of the possible end races.
A ton of other creatures/NPCs also use templates (e.g., SR:Bashnag who I just created), but my guess is that "normally" the template does not overwrite the original race. The template is only allowed to overwrite the Fox race.
Also tying into my guesswork is remembering a pre-release interview with some of the game artists who mentioned a problem they encountered with foxes -- that originally foxes had just been small wolves, but then the animation was wrong. They said they came out with some type of workaround that allowed them to them to have most of the fox information be taken from wolves, but not all. I'm thinking that may mean they put in place some special flexible-option mechanism for handling foxes, and then realized that the same mechanism could be used to handle other cases.
One way to potentially test this in game would be for someone to do player.placeatme 3df17 (3df17 being the above-mentioned Bandit Chief) multiple times and then check the race/gender/class/etc of the NPC who appears. My guess would be a random collection of Nord, Imperial, Redguard, and Orcs, either male or female, with class Bandit.
But until we've done enough testing to be fairly confident that we understand what's going on, I think the best thing to do is stick with the information that comes out of the game data, no matter how strange it seems.--NepheleTalk 18:55, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
After trying this out, Nephele seems to be correct. I couldn't test their class (I don't know how to), the differences between their races and gender is apparent. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 19:10, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
I ran some updates on all NPCs/creatures yesterday, including new handling of the Fox race (and also the much less common Default Race) and Dremora class. In those cases, I'm now recursively checking all templates/leveled lists and finding out all of the possible races, genders, and classes. If it turns out to be a single value, I'm just displaying it. If multiple values are possible, I'm putting "Radiant". I debated whether to use "Variable" or "Dynamic" instead of "Radiant", because I'm not sure whether the developers consider this to be a part of the radiant system. However, I opted for Radiant because we already have a SR:Radiant article, and that article seems like a good place to explain what Radiant means when it appears for an NPC. --NepheleTalk 17:20, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Template:Skyrim

I recently noticed the talk page for the Skyrim template seen on the bottom of many Skyrim pages, I recently created some smaller templates that could be used to replace this. I'd like opinions on whether this is worth while, and where my proposed templates should be used, as well as if there are any links you think I missed. Thank you, all feedback much appreciated. --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 17:47, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

As I said in the thread, I have my reservations about it being changed right now, but I think all the issues would go away if the Categories were in place finally. I mean, especially since the current navbox isn't used on most of the pages. I was wondering what the deal is with the categorization, what are we waiting on, the CK? Lukish_ Tlk Cnt 05:18, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
The only problem I have with Categories is this - who uses them? All of the 'regulars' use them obviously, but surely we're in the minority? Whilst we, the regulars, (normally, but not at the moment) make the most edits we surely do not read the most pages? I'm fairly confident most casual readers come from a search engine and will not know how Categories work, therefore i'd propose putting my version(s) on more pages to make better use of it. --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 16:05, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Anyone is free to create categories -- there aren't even any restrictions on page creation in the category namespace. I wouldn't say we're "waiting on" anything -- we're just busy doing hundreds of other things, many of which are arguably more important than creating categories. Especially since nearly every page is being put into all relevant categories, so someone who really wants to look at the contents of any redlinked category can already do so. --NepheleTalk 17:41, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Minor graphical glitches in Skyrim

What should we do with them? Of all glitches, these are the least serious, but I do wonder what we should do with them. Bethesda may or may not be interesting in this kind of information, but what about the community as a whole? I have a strong feeling that if we just use Skyrim:Glitches the page will become even more unwieldy. Should the minor glitches get a mention in the respective article (for example, glitches within Breezehome in its article)? Should those glitches get their own page? Should they just be mentioned in the discussion of a page?
I, like many others, am hopeful that Bethesda will faithfully patch this game to perfection, and reporting these minor glitches helps them, helps the game, and ultimately helps every Skyrim player. Thus, I feel that these glitches, no matter how minor, should be reported. The question is, where and how? Jak Atackka 07:36, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Notice about semi-protection

Due to extreme traffic and an overload of unwanted additions, these two pages has been semi-protected until the beginning of 2012:

--Krusty 17:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Skyrim:Mining semi-protected for 1 month starting today. No need for more manual counting of various ore veins before the CK arrives. --Krusty 20:59, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Alchemy Effect Coloration

It appears the CSS is backwards somewhere for the alchemy effect coloration. If you look at Skyrim:Useful Potions, you'll see the first three tables with the Potion class are red, the next couple with the Poison class are green, and then the next table has no class (Ha!). Instead, the concoction effect cells have a background color based on the EffectPos and EffectNeg classes. However, EffectPos maps to the green color while EffectNeg maps to the red color. I don't know which is right, and I don't know where to change it even if I did know which was right, so I'm just bringing it to someone's attention. --Fluff 07:14, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Duplicate/Changed/Switched NPCs

Plautis Carvain and his wife each have two forms, and two base IDs. Which is the correct way to display that on their pages? I would think putting both IDs in the same box would work, but will that work for everyone? Lukish_ Tlk Cnt 17:31, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

good job

Wow. I have never seen a more comprehensive wiki site on a game than UESP. Thanks and kudos to all the editors. — Unsigned comment by 65.100.172.225 (talk) at 20:38 on 9 December 2011 (GMT)

Skyrim Store Details

I've been working on creating detailed merchandise lists for all of the Skyrim merchants, but now that they're mostly ready to be added to the site I'm realizing that I don't know where to put the information.

For past games, most details about what the merchant buys/sells have been provided on the individual merchant pages; we've avoided having separate pages for stores. However, for Skyrim it's looking like it makes more sense to put the merchandise and store details on the individual store page. Admittedly, there are still details of how merchants work that confuse me. However, it seems like most stores are set up so that multiple people can run the store -- the merchant chest and displayed merchandise are owned by a faction, rather than a single person, and multiple people belong to the faction. Which means that if we add the merchandise details to the merchant page, it needs to be duplicated for the multiple merchants. Also, given the level of detail that's been added to the Oblivion NPC pages (and will presumably be added to Skyrim), one of the rationales for combined merchant/store pages has been removed -- there is more than enough information to fill two separate pages.

Of course, there are exceptions. Stall merchants and College of Winterhold members don't have a separate store; the merchandise is specific to a single person. Therefore, in those cases merchandise info will still need to be provided on the person's page.

Making the change has some complications. Most notably, the Place Summary template needs a major revamp so that dungeon-specific information (e.g., clearable) isn't shown on store pages, and so that there's a distinct section for all the store information -- gold, buys, sells, etc. Which is one reason why I was hoping to get some feedback before diving into such a significant change. --NepheleTalk 18:13, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I think, definitely needs a separate page. I'm unsure why 'clearable' wasn't already hide-able? Because don't City pages and such use a Place Summary Template? I'm just moderately unsure - Is this page going to replace the Merchant details on NPCs or accompany it? --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 18:24, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I think when someone is looking for inventory, they are more than likely to search by the store name, if applicable (as you mentioned). I think referencing that said NPC could be a possibly merchant for said store would be sufficient enough in terms of covering our bases. Now for the template, would it be easier just to make a new template for the stores? I know it takes away the usefulness of consolidating the templates, but that template is getting really big. elliot (talk) 18:47, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Some feedback:
  • Clearable wasn't already hide-able because I didn't think far enough ahead / broad enough scope when I added the flag ;) You're right, it needs to be fixed on more than just Store pages.
  • My thought is for merchants with stores, to keep the info that shows up in the NPC Summary template (especially since it's all been bot-added already), but then add a blurb such as "see store page for details".
  • I'd considered whether to split off a separate Store Summary template, and it's still tempting to avoid the extra headaches. But when I look at the number of parameters involved, I think keeping it all in the Place Summary is best in the long run. I'm only talking about adding three new parameters. And a large number of parameters on the Place Summary template are still relevant to stores -- especially the long list of alchemy/tanning/smelter/anvil/cooking/etc. parameters. We're likely to want to tweak some of those parameters (e.g., anvil should probably be removed and merged into forge), and make other changes such as adding map links once we get a map. All of that will be easier if we only have to update one template.
--NepheleTalk 19:25, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I'd also say keep it all together, it's not as if anyone ever reads the /Doc's or the Template pages so over crowding doesn't matter? Surely, other than updates? But, as a novice templat-er would this affect working with the template for upgrades if the template where it to get over large? --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 19:35, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
We could strip the #local and use cleantable. I did some preview testing and it seems like that would work. You would have to get a bot to change all the clearable=1 bits, but that shouldn't be too hard. elliot (talk) 19:46, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Random Page link not working correctly.

The first time the link is pressed, it goes to a random page but any subsequent presses reload the page from the first press. Tested on both Firefox and Chrome, so I don't think this is a browser issue. 125.237.99.80 23:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I just tested it, and there is no problem for me. I run Firefox. Eric SnowmaneQuestions?Send an Email 23:46, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
I can confirm that it doesn't work as anon-user, but shows the same page everytime. As logged-in user it works like intended. Some kind of caching issue it seems. --Alfwyn 23:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
It's purposely like this, otherwise there'd be a massive load on the server (or database) from lots of Anon's using it frequently - create an account and it works. It's not as if the account creation here is a long process. --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 21:10, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Where should word wall texts and their translations go?

Word wall texts and translations were being put in word wall sections at the places where they were found. This approach has proved faulty since the text is rarely location specific but rather shout specific. Thus the wall text you find matches your progress in learning the associated shout. We need to come to a consensus on where the texts should go. They could be listed on the word wall page in a section devoted to this and subdivided into the walls dealing with each shout. Maybe put on a lore page like books? Or should all the relevant texts be listed on the individual shout pages? Perhaps someone has a better idea? Part of the reason I am asking is I currently have recorded and translated most of the walls but do not know where to put them. Coronus 23:22, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

The Word Wall page sounds like an ideal place to put them, but I don't really see the point if they're all being listed on the shout articles. --Legoless 22:46, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I also thought that the word wall page seemed the obvious place to put them but wanted to see what everyone else thought before I did anything. Also, to clarify my somewhat unclear question, I am not talking about the words for the shouts (which are ready listed and translated on the shouts page). These are single words that are taken from larger texts that appear on each word wall. I am asking about the whole scripts on each word wall (usually a memorial or wise saying). I am unaware of any current listing on UESP (except for a few stragglers and the Bleak Falls Barrow). Coronus 05:36, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
I started solving this problem before realizing that it was one. Some place articles still have faulty information on what the word wall says, because as already stated, the word wall's words are dependent on what words you've already learned, not on the location. I've been translating these word walls and putting them into tables in this format:
Thu'um Word Wall Translation
Word 1 HET NOK... Here lies...
Word 2 NONVUL BRON... Noble Nord...
Word 3 QETHSEGOL... This stone...
Two completed shouts are Frost Breath and Dismay. This is a simple and relatively effective format for displaying the word wall translations. I'm about to add a basic table to each shout page; if you have a translation you'd like to add, just edit the page and you will see that the rubric is already there, just commented out. Jak Atackka 08:53, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Good work Jak Atackka. I'll start uploading my translations directly. Coronus 23:54, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. Now I've come across a similar yet notably different table as well, namely at Animal Allegiance and Aura Whisper, among others. Here is a sample of that alternate style:
Thu'um Word Wall Roman Characters Translation
Word 1 HET NOK... HET NOK... Here lies...
Word 2 NONVUL BRON... NONVUL BRON... Noble Nord...
Word 3 QETHSEGOL... QETHSEGOL... This stone...
I'm all for presenting as much information as is feasible, but if you look on the shout pages themselves, you can see that there are just too many columns. Remember that word walls are always 3 or 4 lines long; the tables under the shouts described above are 8 lines long. The tables that include Roman Characters seem too cramped. Any suggestions? It would be no problem at all to convert the existing tables to either format.
Oh, and I'd like to point out that if you mouse over the dragon script, it shows it in Roman characters - at least it does in Chrome and IE. Jak Atackka 03:22, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

() You can try this:

Thu'um Word Wall Translation
Translation
Word 1 HET NOK... Here lies...
HET NOK...
Word 2 NONVUL BRON... Noble Nord...
NONVUL BRON...
Word 3 QETHSEGOL... This stone...
QETHSEGOL...

It's not exactly ideal, but it narrows the table a lot. Also, do you think we should highlight the word within the word wall? Something like...

Thu'um Word Wall Translation
Raan QETHSEGOL V4RUKIV K9
SARVIRRA ZOK KRIN R1N
ALUN W4 FON1R ODUS FROD
4RK OFAN OK SIL F4 OK DROG
This stone commemorates the Horse,
Sarvirra, the most courageous animal
ever to charge the snowy battlefields
and give his soul for his lord.

It's just an idea, but it may be a little more helpful for those who can't read the language, especially since we aren't providing the dragon text next the individual words. elliot (talk) 04:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I like the most info as possible also and have been converting the tables I modify to that format. They do look too crowded, however, and the mouse over also works on firefox. Perhaps it would be better to switch them all to the the short version. Only worry is if users do not know to mouse over (I didn't). Coronus 04:28, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
@Elliot I think both of your suggestions are good. The first completely eliminates my concern with mousing over while also allowing more space for the cramped sections. Coronus 04:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Highlighting the word within the word wall is a great idea. I'll start converting tables to highlight the main word - no matter what format we do, I think highlighting the word should be a given.
As to which format table to use... I'm not sure. Here's one example:
Thu'um Word Wall Translation
Translation
Faas NONVUL BRON D4M1N D1R ROT DO FIN
FOD3Z BORM4 F1S NI BRENDON DO
DINOK F4 ROK LOS QOL1S DO MORO
4RK HIN 1K W4 LOT SOVNGARDE
Noble Nord, remember these words of the
hoar father: Fear not (the) specter of
death, for he is (the) herald of glory
and your guide to great Sovngarde.
NONVUL BRON DahMaaN DaaR ROT DO FIN
FODiiZ BORMah FaaS NI BRENDON DO
DINOK Fah ROK LOS QOLaaS DO MORO
ahRK HIN aaK Wah LOT SOVNGARDE
Ru HET NOK KOPR1N DO SON1N
ROMERIUS WO UNT RU NOL OSOS
GOGIL NUZ MOTM4
Here lies the body of Bard
Romerius who tried to run from some
Goblins but slipped
HET NOK KOPRaaN DO SONaaN
ROMERIUS WO UNT RU NOL OSOS
GOGIL NUZ MOTMah
Maar QETHSEGOL V4RUKIV D1NIK
F4L3L K3R DO GRAV5N FROD
WO BOVUL KO M1R NOL KINZON
Z4KR3 DO KRUZ3K HOKORON
This stone commemorates the doomed
Elf child of Autumn Field
Who fled in terror from the sharp
Sword of an ancient enemy
QETHSEGOL VahRUKIV DaaNIK
FahLiiL KiiR DO GRAVuuN FROD
WO BOVUL KO MaaR NOL KINZON
ZahKRii DO KRUZiiK HOKORON
And here's another:
Thu'um Word Wall Translation
Translation
Faas NONVUL BRON D4M1N D1R ROT DO FIN Noble Nord, remember these words of the
hoar father: Fear not (the) specter of
death, for he is (the) herald of glory
and your guide to great Sovngarde.
NONVUL BRON DahMaaN DaaR ROT DO FIN
FOD3Z BORM4 F1S NI BRENDON DO
FODiiZ BORMah FaaS NI BRENDON DO
DINOK F4 ROK LOS QOL1S DO MORO
DINOK Fah ROK LOS QOLaaS DO MORO
4RK HIN 1K W4 LOT SOVNGARDE
ahRK HIN aaK Wah LOT SOVNGARDE
Ru HET NOK KOPR1N DO SON1N Here lies the body of Bard
Romerius who tried to run from some
Goblins but slipped
HET NOK KOPRaaN DO SONaaN
ROMERIUS WO UNT RU NOL OSOS
ROMERIUS WO UNT RU NOL OSOS
GOGIL NUZ MOTM4
GOGIL NUZ MOTMah
Maar QETHSEGOL V4RUKIV D1NIK This stone commemorates the doomed
Elf child of Autumn Field
Who fled in terror from the sharp
Sword of an ancient enemy
QETHSEGOL VahRUKIV DaaNIK
F4L3L K3R DO GRAV5N FROD
FahLiiL KiiR DO GRAVuuN FROD
WO BOVUL KO M1R NOL KINZON
WO BOVUL KO MaaR NOL KINZON
Z4KR3 DO KRUZ3K HOKORON
ZahKRii DO KRUZiiK HOKORON
If we made this into a template, then the average person could add to the table, but as a plain wikitable, the formatting is too convoluted for someone with little formatting experience to ever understand. I do have an idea, though. What if in the right-hand corner of the "Word Wall" column we had a button that if you pressed would dynamically change the text between Roman characters and Draconic? True, it would be difficult to create a template for, but I think that would be the ideal solution. Jak Atackka 20:28, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
[EDIT] I propose that we create a template for this and have all of the current (and future) tables converted to the template. For now, we could just have it as the basic table (without Roman characters). I am inexperienced with writing templates, but I could try my hand at it later. We definitely should have them as a single template, though. Jak Atackka 20:37, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, here is attempt No.1, thats with no <br> tags in there. So it won't look quite right. Feel free to try put tags and/or color in it :) That only took 10/15 minutes to do, but I think this is the best format. This is also the simplest template I could make (from my point of view), it also uses relatively few parameters as well.
{{User:Kiz/Sandbox1
|word1=Faas
|word wall one=NONVUL BRON DahMaaN DaaR ROT DO FIN FODiiZ BORMah FaaS NI BRENDON DO DINOK Fah ROK LOS QOLaaS DO MOROahRK HIN aaK Wah LOT SOVNGARDE
|translation1= Noble Nord, remember these words of the hoar father: Fear not (the) specter of death, for he is (the) herald of glory and your guide to great Sovngarde.
|word2=Ru
|word wall two=HET NOK KOPRaaN DO SONaaN ROMERIUS WO UNT RU NOL OSOS GOGIL NUZ MOTMah
|translation2=Here lies the body of Bard Romerius who tried to run from some Goblins but slipped
|word3=Maar
|word wall three=QETHSEGOL VahRUKIV DaaNIK FahLiiL KiiR DO GRAVuuN FROD WO BOVUL KO MaaR NOL KINZON ZahKRii DO KRUZiiK HOKORON
|translation3=This stone commemorates the doomed Elf child of Autumn Field Who fled in terror from the sharp Sword of an ancient enemy}}

--Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 21:06, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Question to you experienced template creators: is there any way to create an interactive table? More generally, is there any built-in wiki function that enables interactivity? Jak Atackka 23:42, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
@Kiz, looks good (especially in the editor, much easier to use). A question though(I am little unfamiliar with the finer workings templates); firstly I noticed it references your sandbox, so would work normally outside or is it still a work in progress? Secondly, since it is so different in the editor interface (albeit much simpler), would the way of turning a word blue in the others still work (if not could you give an example of how)? Regardless, I like the template and was hoping to convert all the listed word walls over to it. Coronus 01:41, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

() I went ahead and simplified the code Kiz:


{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center" width=100%
!rowspan=2|Thu'um !! Word Wall !!rowspan=2| Translation
|-
! Translation
|-
| rowspan=2|<span style="font-size:120%">'''{{{word1}}}'''</span>
| {{DragonFont|{{{word wall one}}}|4}}
| rowspan=2|''{{{translation1}}}''
|-
| {{{word wall one}}}
|-
| rowspan=2|<span style="font-size:120%">'''{{{word2}}}'''</span>
| {{DragonFont|{{{word wall two}}}|4}}
| rowspan=2|''{{{translation2}}}''
|-
| {{{word wall two}}}
|-
| rowspan=2|<span style="font-size:120%">'''{{{word3}}}'''</span>
| {{DragonFont|{{{word wall three}}}|4}}
| rowspan=2|''{{{translation3}}}''
|-
| {{{word wall three}}}
|}

There are a few things I want to try to simplify it even more, but I was trying to get the obvious things taken care of first. Also, I am not sure how easy it will be to incorporate a different color within the template, but it is something I will try to come up with here soon (may take some javascript?). elliot (talk) 02:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

As you can see here, you can color the word separately. Doing it this (relatively naive) way causes a problem with the current DragonFont template; it nests a tag inside the span's title attribute. I got around this by removing the title attribute from the span. This change seems okay to make in general. As far as I can tell, the translation of DragonText is always found with the DragonText itself, making the title text unnecessary (and rather undiscoverable in any case where it would be necessary). --Fluff 03:30, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
@Fluff: Your change seemed to have reverted itself. I went back and deleted the title attribute from the span. It was causing a whole load of problems; now, you can include linebreaks (<br>s) in the actual text. My template auto-detects the special word and auto-highlights it. Here is an example:
Thu'um Word Wall Translation
Roman Characters
Faas NONVUL BRON D4M1N D1R ROT DO FIN
FOD3Z BORM4 F1S NI BRENDON DO
DINOK F4 ROK LOS QOL1S DO MORO
4RK HIN 1K W4 LOT SOVNGARDE
Noble Nord, remember these words of the
hoar father: Fear not (the) specter of
death, for he is (the) herald of glory
and your guide to great Sovngarde.
NONVUL BRON DahMaaN DaaR ROT DO FIN
FODiiZ BORMah FaaS NI BRENDON DO
DINOK Fah ROK LOS QOLaaS DO MORO
ahRK HIN aaK Wah LOT SOVNGARDE
Ru HET NOK KOPR1N DO SON1N
ROMERIUS WO UNT RU NOL OSOS
GOGIL NUZ MOTM4
Here lies the body of Bard
Romerius who tried to run from some
Goblins but slipped
HET NOK KOPRaaN DO SONaaN
ROMERIUS WO UNT RU NOL OSOS
GOGIL NUZ MOTMah
Maar QETHSEGOL V4RUKIV D1NIK
F4L3L K3R DO GRAV5N FROD
WO BOVUL KO M1R NOL KINZON
Z4KR3 DO KRUZ3K HOKORON
This stone commemorates the doomed
Elf child of Autumn Field
Who fled in terror from the sharp
Sword of an ancient enemy
QETHSEGOL VahRUKIV DaaNIK
FahLiiL KiiR DO GRAVuuN FROD
WO BOVUL KO MaaR NOL KINZON
ZahKRii DO KRUZiiK HOKORON
I'm still looking into getting a javascript-enabled table where if you mouse over a button it will display the text in Roman characters. Until then, though, I vouch for this template. Jak Atackka 04:18, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Good work on those! I am also looking for some java presets. I have found a few, so now I am just trying to customize them for our purpose. elliot (talk) 05:18, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

() Okay, I found a basic way to do it for now. We can always iron out the kinks later. The first thing you want to do is add importScript('User:Elliot/hoveringtext.js'); to here. Then you want to add importScript('User:Elliot/hoveringtext.css'); to here. Make sure you reset your cache to view the following table.

The width of the popup box isn't wanting to budge, so I am not too sure where to go from here. I probably need to sleep on it; however, I fear we may be overcomplicating some things. elliot (talk) 07:07, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd just like to say, nice progress. But, I can't get the popup. I've add the scripts to the appointed places, can you check i've got the right thing. I've always failed to import scripts before and end up copying and pasting it over (they will be at the bottom of each page).I'm copying the code over. Importing it broke the rest of my scripts :/ --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 11:23, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Do we really need custom javascript for this? Because only administrators can change javascript, it's not an ideal solution. Not really sure what exactly is desired, but couldn't {{Hover}} solve it? Example: HET NOK KOPR1N DO SON1N
{{Hover|dotted=no|HET NOK KOPRaaN DO SONaaN|2=<font face="DragonscriptRegular">HET NOK KOPR1N DO SON1N</font>}}
Or we could use some version of the {{Showhide}} javascript that is already in place to have a box opening with the roman characters.
--Alfwyn 14:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Combining Alfwyn's and Jak Atackka's suggestions, I've modified the template used on my example page. The only part that I don't like about it is that the dragon word must be in the same case as the dragon text; otherwise, it will not be colored. I also note that this doesn't use the DragonFont template. Can the DragonFont template be modified to have an optional parameter for the hover text? If so, most uses would just pass in the plaintext parameter and the hovertext would be derived from that. Meanwhile, this template could pass in the colored text as the main parameter and the uncolored text as the hovertext parameter. --Fluff 15:34, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Having a bit of extra time today, I decided to experiment with this on my own. On my example page, you can see two examples. The first uses the Hover template to add the mouseover text to the dragon text. The second uses an optional parameter on the DragonFont template to allow the word wall template to add uncolored mouseover text. Personally, I think the second solution is better since it retains the previous (if unobvious) functionality of translated mouseover text everywhere else the current DragonFont template is being used. However, I do not have much experience with templating, so please check over my work. --Fluff 17:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
The blue colour used to highlight the Words of Power makes the text look like a hyperlink. Is it possible to use a lighter tone? --Legoless 19:21, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Really? I think the blue is fine. We could change it if necessary, though. To me, the problem lies within the current DragonFont template. I still like the idea of having the lines of Draconic, Roman characters, and the translation all correspond. In other words, if the word wall is four lines of text, we need to show that it is four lines of text, and for the sake of consistency we need to have both the Roman characters and the translation four lines long. The problem is, though, this requires page breaks, and with the current implementation of DragonFont (as shown by Fluff here,) that doesn't work. That little hover box can not have any page breaks. I've had problems removing page breaks for the title, but I will keep experimenting.
As I see it, we have narrowed it down to four options:
  • Have some sort of button that you click on/mouse over in order to view the text in Roman characters
  • Utilize the existing hover box, and somehow make knowledge of it much more widespread
  • Create a completely new functionality of the wiki
  • Just display the Roman characters and the Draconic text together
I know very little about javascript and CSS, but I do know that any solutions using these should use existing code. Just using the existing hoverbox could work, but A) you would need to figure out how to remove any and all tags from the titletext and B) you would need to make knowledge of its existence widespread. A is achievable, B is questionable. If you were to create a completely new functionality of the wiki, then I propose adding a simple checkbox. Check it for Draconic characters, uncheck it for Roman characters.
While we are discussing this, though, we should create a template under Template:WordWall or something similar, and start converting existing Word Wall translations to it. Then, when we reach a better solution that we all (or most of us) agree on, we'll just go in and change the official template. As for whose template we should use temporarily... We should quickly decide it. Jak Atackka 19:57, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

() Stripping out the br's isn't a big deal. The second example on my example page shows this in action. --Fluff 20:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

[Edit] @Alfwn: Thanks for the info! Here's an example of a table that uses {{Showhide}}:
Thu'um Word Wall Translation
Roman Characters
Faas NONVUL BRON D4M1N D1R ROT DO FIN
FOD3Z BORM4 F1S NI BRENDON DO
DINOK F4 ROK LOS QOL1S DO MORO
4RK HIN 1K W4 LOT SOVNGARDE

Noble Nord, remember these words of the
hoar father: Fear not (the) specter of
death, for he is (the) herald of glory
and your guide to great Sovngarde.
Ru HET NOK KOPR1N DO SON1N
ROMERIUS WO UNT RU NOL OSOS
GOGIL NUZ MOTM4

Here lies the body of Bard
Romerius who tried to run from some
Goblins but slipped
Maar QETHSEGOL V4RUKIV D1NIK
F4L3L K3R DO GRAV5N FROD
WO BOVUL KO M1R NOL KINZON
Z4KR3 DO KRUZ3K HOKORON

This stone commemorates the doomed
Elf child of Autumn Field
Who fled in terror from the sharp
Sword of an ancient enemy


And Fluff, you're right, it wasn't a big deal. That just goes to show how inexperienced I really am. Between updates on this discussion, though, we should add an official template (as a placeholder for now) and start converting the existing Word Wall tables into template format. If this discussion goes off into the world of Javascript, I'm afraid that it won't end any time soon. Jak Atackka 20:51, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Personally, I'm not a fan of the Show/Hide or other solutions that require user interaction to show the Roman character transliteration. The less I have to interact with the page to get the information from it, the better. The dragon shout pages aren't very long as they currently stand, so why not just show everything? --Fluff 00:33, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

() Alfwyn, nothing is needed besides having the information on the page, so I don't understand you're argument.

Now the show/hide works as well, so I have no problems with that (I'm not a huge fan of it, but I can get over it). But going along with Fluff, I am growing to think this is being overcomplicated. The stacked table isn't that bad of a compromise, and I would have no problems with going down that route. elliot (talk) 02:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Fluff, I slightly changed Template:WordWall to take the DragonFont portion directly from Template:DragonFont instead of from User:Fluff/Sandbox/DragonFont. Jak Atackka 05:29, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Good catch. I've got most of the word wall templates added (just a few more line breaks to track down). There are a couple of pages I wasn't sure about how to handle. Throw Voice has all the words on a single wall; the template does not support that possibility. Unrelenting Force also has only a single wall with only the first word. For now, I left those pages alone. I'll finish finding these line breaks in-game. --Fluff 05:50, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
I want ahead and manually changed those pages so they match with the current template. I figured that with stragglers like these, it makes more sense to just fix them manually than to complicate the template with optional parameters. Jak Atackka 09:25, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Chris3145, nice job with the Word Wall template! Just thought I should say that the Word Walls are 100% complete. Jak Atackka 08:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Skyrim Map

(moved from User_talk:Rpeh)

Good day, Robert.

  • Primo. I connected to own site online-map of Skyrim. On the basis of texture cells. Such Oblivion, but a bit ugly - no roads (except the big ones - are "imprinted" =), waterbody(remember, Oblivion map was initially without "blue"), rocks, trees and buildings (again, except for large towns and cities - just left a "footprint" =). Only the ground, a clear land ground. No blade of grass. Even the map is centered more or less well. But here's the coordinates obtained strange. For example, Whiterun has the coordinates ~(155200, -169728) and Markarth ~(-45184, -160448). You can tell which(what?) and how to calculate the parameters? As far as I understand it CellSize, CellOffsetX and CellOffsetY?
  • Secundo. Interior maps... I will continue to make these maps. But not quickly - as I will go to certain places. City, most likely not going to: I had enough attempts, with only one Whiterun - a lot of shots, always giveth "Fog of War "..... Brrrrr .... But there's an idea. I hate uses Fallout-like design on the Bethesda.... I want to try the map, just as in the Prima Guide has been done but not completely the same. I will do them on the basis of the "original" (as those uploaded to Bleak Falls Barrow), but "vectorized" them (not by "tracing" - by hand). May raise this issue for discussion to develop a common vision of how these maps as a result should look like?

ZKoshak(Ruesp) 07:37, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I can't understand this post. rpeh •TCE 22:27, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Oh... I'm sorry... 8( Maybe thus...
I've connected on-line map Skyrim to my own project in the form of texture cells. The map is like the Oblivion one of UESP, but a bit ugly - without roads (except the big ones, that can be seen), waterbody (if you remember, on-line UESP's map Oblivion in the beginning was also without "blue"), stones, trees and buildings (again except cities and big settlements, which also have a "trail"). Only surface, clear surface without any grass. I'm very confused with the coordinates, they're strange. For example, Whiterun has coordinates ~(155200, -169728), аnd Markarth ~(-45184, -160448). Could you explain please how to calculate the parametres and what they should be? As far as I know they shoul be like this - CellSize, CellOffsetX и CellOffsetY?
Considering interior maps I will continue doing them, but as fast as I visit places. Most probably I won't do the cities. I've had enough with Whiterun, there too many screen shots and the "war fog" comes back again and again... But I have an idea. I can't stand the Bethesda Fallout-like design used. I would like to try to make maps like in Prima Guide, but not absolutely the same. I would make them on the base of "initial" (like that I used for Bleak Falls Barrow), but by "vectorizing" (not by tracing but manually). Maybe we should discuss the point of how these maps should look like and come to one conclusion?
ZKoshak(Ruesp) 00:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
I've moved this to the Community Portal because it seems to involve more than just me. But I'm afraid I still don't understand what you're trying to say. rpeh •TCE 00:05, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
If I'm understanding ZKoshak correctly, and please pardon any misinterpretations, he wants help creating RUESP's Skyrim online-map. Specifically, he's having trouble with the coordinates, and determining what they should be. The second issue he raised is in relation to the interior maps. He doesn't like how they look. So he's proposing creating interior maps more similar to those found in the game guide. I don't have the game guide myself, but I think he means to create maps that look more like this. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 00:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes, something like this is. =) But.... Not much help as needed advice. I tried to "calculate" parameters, which in my opinion affect the coordinates (based on this section). As a result, I got something like this:
  • NumMapTilesX = 192; //now 200
  • NumMapTilesY = 192; // now 200
  • CellOffsetX = 96.0; // now 64.0
  • CellOffsetY = 96.0; // now 60.0
But I have no confidence that this is true is calculated.
By the second part... True. So it is. More specifically, like this: towns and other settlements, dungeons. ZKoshak(Ruesp) 00:05, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

How about a multi-languages site ?

Hi guys ! I'm new so i don't know is this was already suggested, but why don't we traduct the site in many languages, like Wikipedia ?

I'm a french canadian, so I can put the content of this site in french ! (Not alone, of course ! XD )

So is this a good idea ? what do you think, guys ?

~~ vivi1230, 2:13, Wednesday, december 21st (UTC)

I think that for the amount of wording changes, template changes, possible domain changes. As well as the actual task of manually translating (Google translate would be useless) it all would make this project unfeasible, considering the servers (and regular editors) are under enough strain with the sheer amount of edits we are getting in at the moment. As well as the fact that whilst we are doing that the quality of the site will be going down because of a lack of experienced editors watching the incoming edits. All that coupled together with the question "How many more editors/readers will this gain us" makes it seem a bad idea.
But, just take a look here to see if there is anywhere more appropriate for these contributions if you, personally, want to read/write in French.
What you must also consider is that we are a lot smaller than Wikipedia --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 12:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, different languages would probably go into a different wiki as far as templates, recent changes and so on are concerned (wiki-farm) with URLs using something like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/fr/ . So they would be more or less isolated from the English side. But the question remains, if there would be enough experienced and willing editors for a given language to make it worthwhile. And of course it would need considerable efforts on the side of the server admins. --Alfwyn 13:44, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. As it is the editors are straining to keep all of the pages here high-quality. Having support for multiple languages? We would need a whole new group of experienced bilingual editors, as well as a powerful non-English fan base to contribute the mass bulk of edits. I'm afraid that without a large community to support it, a wiki for a separate language is just unfeasible. Jak Atackka 20:32, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
While you're all right to dismiss the idea for now, it's been discussed several times before and nobody has ever stated that it would be a Bad Idea. There's a very good German site who have been really helpful when it comes to our interactive maps, and look like they're doing great work on Skyrim. I seem to recall some discussions a long time ago about merging that site into UESP. It's quite possible that if someone were to suggest a workable mechanism for merging the two sites - and it would have to take finance, content, administration and loads of other stuff into account - that it would go ahead.
The trouble is that about 90% of people asking for foreign language versions of the site are really saying "I'd like this, but don't want to do any of the work. Please do it and get back to me.". To be fair, the OP indicated a willingness to help out on this front, but then I've seen that kind of thing before too.
Any kind of foreign language site would be a drain on resources, both mechanical and human. Anybody with the time and resources to make it happen would doubtless be welcome, but I'm afraid - as I said at first - it's right to dismiss the idea for now. rpeh •TCE 00:17, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

TOO MANY TEMPLATES

Gee wheez. There are way too many templates on this wiki. I need to print certain parts of this wiki out but sine it's in a wikitable format I can't just copy and paste it onto Microsoft Word. What is up with that? — Unsigned comment by 218.102.143.13 (talk) at 06:09 on 24 December 2011

Yup, that's kind of what happens when you want to standardize thousands of articles with a handful of readable and reusable rubrics. And yeah, there are quite a few wikitables on this wiki. If you really want it as a Word Document, then you'll have to manually copy and paste the data into a Word table. Of course, you can just hit Control-P (or Command-P on a Mac) within any popular web browser and choose which page(s) to print.Jak Atackka 09:32, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Each page has a Printable Version link on the left. There's absolutely no need to use Word. rpeh •TCE 10:03, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Guard dialogue

I happened across the Guard page and saw the massive lack of information (comparable to if not worse than the word walls 2 weeks ago), so I decided to talk to a guard for half an hour and write down everything he/she says. It wasn't that hard, but it was rather tedious. Oh well. However, with the quotes piling up in the dozens, I had to more or less reorganize the entire page. I like what I did, but I don't like where I did it.
Currently, the guard's dialogue is under Guard, but I'm not so sure about this. The sheer number of quotes necessitates this type of categorization, but it seems kind of odd to have three sentences describing guards and then to have numerous tables describing their dialogue. This page is largely ignored, and since I'm on a 360, I'll ask you to please do this.

  • Where's the NPC table, with race, class, etc.? Some pages have over a dozen of these little tables, (complete with over a dozen "This is a blank page..." boxes) but there don't seem to be any for guards. All that I can say is that they are all Nords.
  • Should the guard's dialogue be on a separate page, with a link on Guard? This is open for debate - it is kind of strange for the dialogue to take up 99% of the page, however do we really need another page (and another link for the user to click on)?

Jak Atackka 09:08, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Terminology

Just some nit-picking about names in the lore namespace: the hero of Skyrim is often referred to as "the Dragonborn" or "the Dovahkiin". This is potentially confusing or misleading (or inaccurate, at any rate), since the Dragonborn are an entire group of people "blessed by Akatosh" throughout history. I think it would be appropriate to instead refer to the player character as the "Last Dragonborn", the title given by The Book of the Dragonborn. I think this is prudent because it's likely what the Skyrim hero will be referred to as in literature and possibly some dialogue in future elder scrolls games. Thoughts? Minor Edits 09:45, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

That's a fair point. We usually use whatever term is used in-game and that's worked so far because "The Nerevarine" or "The Champion of Cyrodiil" is a unique term (although thinking about it, the latter may not be). You're right that in this case "Dragonborn" isn't unique, so it's worth adding the qualifier. rpeh •TCE 10:09, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
"Last Dragonborn" is a dangerous name. It's valid only till the next one comes along. Is there any guarantee it is indeed the last one? It is a name given in a (single?) book, but then again there were books stating that Alduin is Akatosh [1]. While there were "Dragonborns" before, do we have any indication that they were called "Dovahkiin" ? -Alfwyn 01:14, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Good point, I almost forgot the golden rule: never trust Bethesda. If there's no indication of other Dragonborns being referred to as "Dovahkiin", then I guess it would be suitable. Dovahkiin is supposed to be interchangeable with Dragonborn, but to my knowledge, no literature has used the term to refer to other Dragonborns in the past. Even if that does happen in future literature or games, we can still preserve Dovahkiin as the name for Skyrim's hero on the wiki, only using it to refer to other Dragonborns as is made necessary by in-game transcriptions. It would be less of an issue than referring to Skyrim's hero as "Last" and then finding out there were more to come. Minor Edits 01:33, 30 December 2011 (UTC)`
Using "Dovahkiin" sounds like the best compromise, although I don't think using a unique title is necessary, given that it almost always links to Lore:Hero anyway. --Legoless 01:46, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Skyrim Clan Naming

It has been suggested on the Gray-Mane talk page that the page be renamed to "Clan Gray-Mane" and the same for Skyrim:Battle-Born/"Clan Battle-Born". Looking around the wiki quickly, it appears that the IP editor was correct and "Clan <whatever>" is fairly consistently used. That said, the titles of our pages are a little inconsistent: compare Skyrim:House Gray-Mane and Skyrim:House of Clan Battle-Born.

Since I don't yet have the game, I wanted to bring this here for confirmation that it makes sense to add "Clan" to the above-mentioned pages before actually doing it. Robin Hoodtalk 22:28, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

The Battle-Born article was created when it was thought that the clan was some kind of faction. I'd definitely support the move. --Legoless 22:53, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
The factions are Whiterun House Battle-Born Faction and Whiterun House Gray-Mane Faction, so I would actually suggest naming them to House Battle-Born and House Gray-Mane. The houses for the factions have the same name, but I think it is better to be accurate rather than convenient. elliot (talk) 22:59, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Just to add another point of discussion, the next topic on the page suggests moving the article about the clan to Lore space. If I recall, when we've had similar articles in the past, we've maintained both (often with significant transclusions from one space to the other). So that's something else to consider here as well. Robin Hoodtalk 23:10, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Certain pages are displaying oddly.

Self-explanatory. Example: Eldergleam Sanctuary. These problems are caused by having an image below the right-hand box. On Chrome, the [edit] tabs are lined up side-by-side next to the image (which looks very strange on some articles, where 5 or more [edit] tabs will line up and push the main text to the side). On IE, the description (via |description=...) displays correctly, but the rest of it displays below the box (which is pretty noticeable). Window size has nothing to do with it. This is not isolated to this page - this seems to be the case with all pages with this setup. Also, removing the image from the right-hand side fixes the problem. Just thought I should point this out. Jak Atackka 08:06, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

The wiki really hasn't caught up with this formatting, and it is actually something I was wanting to bring up. But it can be fixed by adding the following code to MediaWiki:Common.css:
h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6 {
    overflow: hidden;
}
I tried it on mine, and everything is good to go. elliot (talk) 08:21, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Extra info: Latest version of Chrome 64-bit (16.0.912.63), and I believe it to be latest version of IE7. Basically, it's not just a couple of people. Jak Atackka 08:51, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes, they are still currently acting up because the above code hasn't been applied to the CSS page. Try adding it yours and you will see the difference. elliot (talk) 3:53 am, Today (UTC−5)
Didn't seem to fix it on Chrome. Jak Atackka 09:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I just tried it here too, and it worked for me once I did a forced refresh (the Refresh icon in the top left of Chrome), rather than just hitting F5. Robin Hoodtalk 17:29, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I've added the css to Common.css -- but you will have to do Ctrl-F5 as usual to force it to take effect. --NepheleTalk 19:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)


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