Lore talk:Khajiit

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Archive 1: Mar 2007 - Feb 2012

Suthay and Suthay-raht distinction[edit]

Since no clear explanation of why Khajiit in morrowind look different to oblivion and skyrim (especially with regards to their beast legs) I took the liberty of placing them under "Suthay" instead of Suthay-raht and added the detail under Suthay that defines them as having beast legs.

While there is no sourced evidence to support this distinction, I could equally find no evidence to support the assertion that they were Suthay-raht (and according to the ohmes-raht entry, most khajiit are supposed to possess beast legs <though granted this assertion is not sourced either>). This way at least provides some explanation for their physiological difference until someone can replace it with a solid, sourced explanation.

62.150.124.202 18:24, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

In Morrowind, the Khajiits claim that they are Suthay-raht ("In Vvardenfell Khajiit are all Suthay-raht like me -- smart, quick, and agile.") This is evidence that they are Suthay-raht
other things that the Khajiits say in Morrowind that suggest they are Suthay-raht are "Suthay-raht make good jumpers and sneakers, but not good warriors like the Cathay-raht." and "Suthay-raht prefer claws to weapons. Fast and always ready."
I'm changing the Suthay to be discrived as similar but smaller to the Suthay. I'm changing the Suthay-raht to include Morrowind's Khajiits.
--70.194.15.149 19:31, 17 July 2012 (UTC), Woundedkneecap

Void Nights?[edit]

Probably not the place for it, I was curious, has there been any information/sources explaining any effect on Khajiit dimorphism during the time of the void nights? Or did things continue as though the moons were still in place? 94.168.28.209 12:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I never heard anything about it and in Skyrim the Khajiits seem to be normal so I would say no. Although if you go through the lore pages you might find something but I don't think so. RIM 15:08, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

S'rendarr / Stendarr?[edit]

"Nothing is known of S'rendarr, save that the Khajiit revere him as the God of Mercy." Seems like an obvious parallel to the Nordic god Stendarr. Is this intentionally left unstated on the page, e.g. due to lack of in-game evidence? 206.116.154.115 00:03, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

The Lore page on gods does state that they are the same god. In fact, many of the gods on this page have parallels to other gods, and none of them are stated. Additionally, none of them redirect to their respective sections on the other lore pages. Before I fix this, I would like some clarification as to whether this is intentional or nobody noticed. The descriptions for the gods on this page seem more like in-game descriptions instead of wiki material. APSX3427 (talk) 02:48, 3 May 2013 (GMT)
They should have separate sections in the gods section, to be completely honest. They are clearly the same deity, but they are as different as Mars and Ares or Zeus and Jupiter. Therefore we must treat them as separate. We are likely to get more information on the different versions of each god in ESO. Jeancey (talk) 21:01, 3 May 2013 (GMT)

Etymological Note[edit]

Browsing the page anonymously at first, I saw a specific part mentioned under the Etymological Note regarding the nature of the Khajiit, which I decide to change, as aforementioned, anonymously. Quite a bold statement to be made, since it's basically my first contribution, but I was wondering, since there is no verb in the English language (desert) that elaborates on the point the Khajjiti language is trying to convey, should it be reverted back? Taking into account of course, that the suffix -iit defines one's occupation or residence, it could be possibly changed to stress out the desert as the area in which Khajiit live. --Lupus 20:33, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

The page says that "desert" is in this case related to the noun "desert". Actually, on this page, it is stated that iit means to walk, so Khajiit could literally mean desert-walker in Ta'agra. I don't know where someone got "one who deserts" from, and I haven't been able to find anything through a lore search. Vely►Talk►Email 23:03, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
What strikes me the most is, that above, in the suffix and prefix list, next to the -iit suffix is stated that it defines one's area of residence or one's work. It comes as much as a contradiction to the walker definition mentioned above by Vely here. On top of this, the phrase one who deserts simply makes no sense, even with the explanation next to it, no? So, should that part be reworked, looked into, or deleted altogether?
Note: I undersatand that *desert* in this case, is related to the noun, but seeing that we're trying to correctly translate it, shouldn't it at least, follow a correct format, which could be faciliated by, let's say periphrasis. --Lupus 10:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
If we can figure out what dialogue or book the information came from, that would be best. Vely►Talk►Email 14:37, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Legoless reverted my change last, so I suppose he may be aware of its true source?--Lupus 17:27, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
I do not know if he does or not, but "one who deserts" is probably not the same as "one who lives or resides in a desert"--desert-walker is the best translation I can see, based on our current article on Ehlnofex languages. Vely►Talk►Email 17:52, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
This was based on the explanation of the -iit suffix right above the Etymological Note ("-iit" is used to state where one lives, and is also used to define one's job.) But as I said before this goes against the definition of the -iit suffix as seen on the Ehlnofex language article chart. --Lupus 18:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Anthropomorphism VS Therianthropy[edit]

I'd like to debate which of the two would better suit Khajiit in the opening of the page. Therianthropy refers to the metamorphism of humans into other animals, while anthropomorphism refers to human characteristics within another animal. Since Khajiit do not start as human and turn into another animal (for example like that of a Werewolf) they are not truly Therianthropic. Instead they are humanoid felines, thus falling more under the Anthropomorphic category. A quote from Wikipedia about therianthropy: "Therianthropes are said to change forms via shapeshifting." which proves that Khajiit, whom are born already in a humanoid feline form, are not Therianthropes. I bring this here in case people can prove otherwise.--Dro'Bakha (talk) 04:30, 17 October 2012 (GMT)

No they are not humanoid felines. They are feline Mer. i.e. not felines with human characteristics, but "humans" (mer) with feline characteristics.--98.234.113.80 20:58, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Two things, One, humans and Mer are different. Two, do you have evidence to support that they are not humanoid felines? Jeancey (talk) 21:03, 26 April 2013 (GMT)
Technically half of the Khajiit subspecies are not humanoid. :P And both mer and humans are humanoid so that's not wrong either.
And yes Anthropomorphism is correct. Therianthropy is the catch-all term for all types of were creatures, being Lycanthropy(wolves) one of them.--Ashendant (talk) 10:40, 3 May 2013 (GMT)

Alfiq[edit]

Do we have any real reason to believe the Alfiq are Khajiits? If the only sources on them are Mixed Unit Tactics and Ahzirr Traajijazeri, I think the only logical thing to do is move them to the bestiary unless and until we learn more. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 05:07, 7 June 2013 (GMT)

Check this, Lore:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/The Elsweyr Confederacy. 72.188.202.7 02:47, 4 November 2013 (GMT)
There is no reference to them there.--AKB Talk Cont Mail 03:09, 4 November 2013 (GMT)
It's the line "while one born under the opposite conditions will be little more than an intelligent house-cat." (and house-cat is linked to Alfiq) added to Mixed Units line of "a few ordinary cats among the Dagi and even claimed that these ordinary cats are known as 'Alfiq'". While its not entirely clear I can accept it. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 16:17, 4 November 2013 (GMT)
Ctrl + F has failed me, darn it. :) I'm willing to accept the information as well, then. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 18:55, 4 November 2013 (GMT)

OB and SR Suthay-raht or Cathay[edit]

There is no evidence in the games for which sub-species is found in Oblivion and Skyrim, so I removed that detail for now. In fact, the info was added by an anonymous user who stated on this very page that "While there is no sourced evidence to support this distinction...". Facts only, no original research, which is what this seems to be. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:35, 15 August 2013 (GMT)

I seem to recall something about it in oblivion.... Let me look into it. Jeancey (talk) 22:07, 15 August 2013 (GMT)

Dune?[edit]

Just wondering has anyone else noted the parallel between the khajiit lore and Dune. Spice/moonsugar, Mane/tyrant, Clan mothers/Revered mother, etc. Grigs (talk) 03:39, 4 November 2013 (GMT)

That seems a very simplistic connection, all societies have similar aspects. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 15:47, 4 November 2013 (GMT)
A physiologically unique power-head who is moved about on a cart, is not a common aspect of society. All of these aspects I list and other share such detailed parallels, though I havent elaborated on them cause I assume anyone who read the two will see them clearly. Grigs (talk) 23:52, 10 November 2013 (GMT)
I really, really, really had to stretch my imagination to see any sort of connection. Many societies carry the ruler around, often on carts or carriages, and there are many aspects of dune that aren't seen in khajiit society. Khajiit is a typical desert-based nomadic matriarchal society. Desert nomads were well known for caravans (as are khajiit) and often as smugglers. I see no real connection to the Dune series here. Jeancey (talk) 00:08, 11 November 2013 (GMT)

Pahmar[edit]

There is no evidence in any lore book I've read that suggests the Pahmar or Pahmar-raht are quadrapedal. The only thing I've found is that they are tiger like in appearance. — Unsigned comment by 66.175.157.111 (talk) at 16:19 on 15 February 2014

Bloodmoon[edit]

Is there any information on what Khajiit would look like if born under Hircine's Bloodmoon? The Bloodmoon requires Secunda to be full, if that makes any difference. — Unsigned comment by 86.147.116.206 (talk) at 09:21 on 16 February 2015

I don't think the Bloodmoon affects ja'Kha'jay; if Secunda must be full, then you would get one of four forms depending on the phase of Masser: Senche, Cathay, Ohmes or Alfiq. --Enodoc (talk) 17:57, 16 February 2015 (GMT)

Ta'agra, khajiit language[edit]

On linguistics pages, Ta'agra is not mentioned as the kajiit language. I'm new to this, so I can only request somebody creates a page for the kajiit language. 107.77.90.53 20:09, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

"Khajjit rarely take to sea"[edit]

It is said in several books across Oblivion and Skyrim that Khajiit are known for sailing ability and khajiit used to make up the thick of the imperial navy. In Skyrim, this can be seen at the Solitude lighthouse, and the various shipwrecks that washed ashore from the sea of ghost are mostly inhabited by khajiit and argonions. — Unsigned comment by 107.77.90.53 (talk) at 20:16 on 6 August 2015 (GMT)

I've tweaked the wording slightly. We (apparently) have a direct source stating that the Khajiit as a race tend to avoid the sea. Many exceptions do exist in the games, the most major one probably being the Renrijra Maor, but it's important to bear in mind that the Khajiit race covers all the different furstocks. A couple Suthay-raht sailors isn't really enough evidence to assume a retcon. —Legoless (talk) 21:24, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

"Magic does not come easily to Khajiit, and requires strenuous training."[edit]

If there are no sources to this then why is it included?--MageoftheMarsh 06:31, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for drawing attention to this. I've removed the line. I'm not completely familiar with Khajiit lore, but I glanced through their racial effects from Morrowind on, and nothing implies that they have difficulty learning or using magic. The "citation needed" has been there for over a year, so there's been plenty of time for someone to fill it. —Proton[talk] 08:45, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
In Skyrim, J'zargo says: "Khajiit are not known as mages, so J'zargo has much to prove." All I could find on the topic. —Legoless (talk) 12:09, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Until and unless we subject our Khajiit characters to arduous testing, the note will never be proven as a true one. DRAGON GUARD(TALK) 20:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Player testing in this case would only be subjective because the only 'hard' part of playing a Khajiit as a mage is that Khajiit are built stat-wise as stealth characters. That being said, J'zargo's dialog provides the information that we have and Legoless' note is representative of what he said and takes care of the issue. •WoahBro►talk
Nice job on finding that reference. I didn't think about J'zargo.--MageoftheMarsh 03:24, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Mer[edit]

Shouldn't the Khajiit be added to the Mer category? ESO basically confirmed that they're merish. ChildofKyne (talk) 01:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Where did it confirm this? Khajiit are Betmer, and the elf theory is more of a what-if than anything. —Legoless (talk) 02:54, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Ahzirr Traajijazeri[edit]

So... Based on the translation guide right above the section, the Renrijra Krin would translate to "laughing (or grinning) scum lords" or perhaps "laughing (or grinning) honoured scum??"

EDIT: After rereading the book, I think a better translation would be the "Laughing (or grinning) Honoured Landless" 173.179.41.60 06:12, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Jah[edit]

Based on Nabina-ko's dialogue, I think this word is a Ta'agra word meaning "money". It's not a complete certainty, but it may be worth noting down somewhere. —Dillonn241 (talk) 07:09, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

It can probably be added to the Ta'agra section, as the meaning seems quite apparent; but as the word "money" isn't really used in Tamriel, "gold (currency)" might be a better translation. A real Ta'agra page really needs to be made at some point; but there might not be enough information to do that yet. —Aran Anumarile Autaracu Alatasel (talk) 07:32, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes, adding it to that section was my intention. I've added it with a reference for now, but I agree that Lore:Ta'agra should be its own page. There is some dialogue with subtitles (but not Ta'agra subtitles) from S'rathra in Redguard that may be usable as well. —Dillonn241 (talk) 07:40, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
According to the subtitles under S'rathra's ta'agra dialog in the Redguard cinematics, "imperial jah" is translated as "imperial coin"90.103.148.79 17:40, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
Good catch! I never really tried comparing what S'rathra actually says to the short list here. Perhaps other words could be added with approximate spellings somewhere; one example is "sicho" meaning "sit". That's just my guess at how it's spelled, of course. —Dillonn241 (talk) 20:23, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

The Khajiit of TESV[edit]

- Since in Skyrim the Khajiit are clearly plantigrade, they have to be either Cathay or Cathay-raht, unless there's another feline-looking plantigrade we don't know about. — Unsigned comment by 108.180.149.202 (talk) at 00:23 on 19 August 2018 UTC

There is not one lore or even unofficial lore source covering this hypothesis until now. Skotharr-do (talk) 00:43, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Khajit Fashion/Budi[edit]

The fourth paragraph in the society section of the page has no sources to reinforce the claim that the showing of torso fur is considered shameful. -Breakfast— Unsigned comment by Breakfast (talkcontribs) at 16:05 on 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Corrected. Thank you for pointing that out!--Rook (talk) 21:21, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion of S'rathra in the Suthay-raht Gallery Section[edit]

S'rathra, a Suthay-raht from redguard

Recently, the image of S'rathra was removed from the Suthay-raht section in Morphology. Me and AKB discussed this in the discord but his stance is that "Those sections do not need to be exhaustive depictions of every appearance of a Suthay-raht." but he was fine with it being put in the very bottom gallery. Normally I would be ok with this, but S'rathra is specifically a Suthay-raht in his character biography. The bottom gallery is currently occupied by the furstocks that we cannot place in a specific furstock section due to them not being confirmed. Why move a confirmed furstock game appearance there? S'rathra is an important depiction because he is the earliest depiction of a Suthay-raht, and having each furstock depiction per game while is unnecessary, is great imo for the casual reading session that our site visitors have. Imagine how great it is for the casual reader to see how far tes has come and how khajiit have evolved cross game? The average reader isn't going to know where to look and what game depicted what race, and visuals are the best to showcase that. Please don't make it harder to access this information by making it so that to see how a suthay-raht looked like in redguard youd have to go past the section that is actually based on that. Redguard is already a pretty obscure elder scrolls game to the more modern fans of the tes series, and needs more love, please keep this depiction on the spotlight in the suthay-raht section so people can learn of it. — Unsigned comment by Zebendal (talkcontribs) at 06:28 on 27 January 2020 (GMT)

There is already a section on each main race lore page which allows for a depiction from every game, the bottom gallery. It doesn't benefit the average reader having the article broken up by a giant wall of images to depict every single confirmed version. It is most likely distracting, as the reader was looking for information, and having a giant gallery for every section isn't beneficial. We have gamespace articles for game-specific depictions as well as the final gallery for this purpose. The body of the article should use the best image depictions available, not try to depict them exhaustively. To go further, linking to it in text is much more useful than just having an image with some minor context included, if we were interested in increasing people's interests in older games. However, the primary purpose of the lore section is to provide information, not advertise any single specific game. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 06:28, 27 January 2020 (GMT)
I think the Redguard depiction should be on the page, its the first actual time a Khajiit's stock was ever specified, and until ESO, was one of the very few times at all, it's not even a bad quality image since its a 3d model in a sense. Imperialbattlespire (talk) 23:00, 28 January 2020 (GMT)
Having too many images on the page makes it harder to read. Too many images on the page is distracting and takes your eyes away from the meat of the article. I understand the drive to have a depiction from every game on a lore page, but this page is already too crowded as is. --MolagBallet (talk) 21:56, 2 February 2020 (GMT)
The importance of a Redguard Khajiit can't be understated, as that was the starting point of Khajiit going from men to feline cats in all their appearances. However, the galleries for the furstocks have been gradually getting clogged up with images ever since Legends and eso started to depict them.
I was thinking of suggesting this a while back (even before this discussion came up, mind you) but I never got around to it until now: each furstock that has appeared in a game should get its own lore article. I created Template:Subraces some months ago as a means of taking care of goblin-ken and naga on the primary navigation template but I added Khajiit furstocks just in case they get their own articles, which it now seems they urgently do. Tes Wiki already has separate articles, and each one that appears in eso already gets their own page; if we don't split them off we're on track to ending up with another Lore:Wars scenario where everything combined onto one page hinders readability and detailed information
Why should we create separate articles, you ask? Aren't they all Khajiit anyways and technically the same race? Yes, but the purpose of furstocks was to show how widely different they were, and to address the retcon in their cat-like appearances. Initially, we only had about 2 or 3 furstocks show up in games, which is why they all got listed here, but in just the past year we have a dozen of them show up in game (10 throughout the main series and eso, 2 only as cards in Legends, and 4 missing depictions outside of statues). Putting them all on the same page will no longer continue to work.
With separate articles, we can put as many relevant images as we want in the galleries and go more in-depth on their information, rather than confining it to a single, jammed-up paragraph. Looking at the Alfiq section being expanded so much since eso alone it's clear making a separate article and transcluding it would clean up that section a whole lot. We could also keep much better track of their edit history, you can barely tell who's editing what since there's so much on the Khajiit page already.
There's a lot of benefits to making this change but most importantly to this discussion, we can reduce the photo for each furstock down to just 1 image (that includes removing the moon phases by section and putting them on furstock articles instead, we should re-add the moon matrix table we had a year ago since it looked so much better and was far easier to understand). Let's make a few new articles and see how much it improves the page, and that way we can decide whether we like them better and make everybody on both sides happy with the results. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 00:02, 3 February 2020 (GMT)
I fully support the inclusion of depictions of each furstock in the various games, particularly in the case of Redguard given what we know about Paradise Sugar. —Legoless (talk) 00:52, 3 February 2020 (GMT)

Family size[edit]

Does anyone know the average family size of Khajiit families? And do they usually have litters or is their birth rate more comparable to the other races, whatever theirs are? Or is this entirely the wrong place to ask this?

You are best visiting the UESP discord to ask questions about this.Zebendal (talk) 05:13, 27 February 2020 (GMT)
Ok, thanks.