Lore talk:Gods

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Archive 1: Feb 2005 - Apr 2011

Nordic Devil Dagoth Ur?

I don't think Dagoth Ur should be in the Nordic Pantheon. Firstly "The Five Songs of King Wulfharth" tells of the "Devil of Dagoth Ur" alongside the Dwarves. Secondly it tells about The Dwarves and the "Devils" of the east (meaning the daedra worshipping Chimer) Dagoth Ur didnt exist during this time, And the "Devil Of Dagoth Ur" simply means the Chimer Voryn Dagoth. I don't think this obscure mention of Wulfharth's encounter with Voryn Dagoth (before he even became a Living God) warrants any mention of him in the Nordic Pantheon. Otherwise Vehk the Devil and his other Tribunal "colleagues" should be mentioned as they too were adversaries to the Nords at this time. --The Lost Hlaalu Heir (talk) 12:09, 15 November 2019 (GMT)

Not to mention that 'Dagoth Ur' is also another name for 'Red Mountain'.--87.255.89.160 19:52, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Seth

We might want to consider adding "Seth" as the object of a Tamrielic cult. Don't know anything about him or the group, except that the group was apparently involved in a Daggerfall quest or something, and the "Brotherhood of Seth" controlled at least one town in Black Marsh. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 18:26, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

The thing about Seth worshippers controlling Gideon comes from here, if you're interested. --Legoless 13:59, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah, so there is no in-game source that refers to Seth, it's just a weird OOG thing? Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 14:02, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

The Brotherhood of Seth appears in Arena. I've never played much of the game, but you have to contact them during the main quest. Seth isn't the first god unique to Arena; I've seen "the Lady" used in dialogue. --Legoless 15:14, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Pantheon Redesign

Maybe it's just me, but the chart looks absolutely horrid. I can take it upon myself to redesign the whole mess, but I'm still learning the ins and outs of it all. It seems, (and please, correct any mistakes), that certain things can be said:

Gods are mostly either Anuic or Padomaic.

Heroes (i.e. Talos) were apotheosized by an existing deity or by service in the name of an existing deity.

Many gods listed are just culturally relevant names of the same gods or "aspects" of other gods. (i.e. Kyne and Kynareth)

And, at the very least, they can be listed effectively in a tree if an anchor god is chosen.

Perhaps some of the senior editors here can shed some light if I'm missing some integral part of this.98.198.118.224 10:12, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Long story short, there are enough cans of worms here to open a bait shop. The current chart is not particularly elegant, but I don't know of a better arrangement that could be agreed upon.

To address some of your concerns, the page already mentions Anu and Padomay and how many deities can be categorically attributed to one or the other. I don't think all deities easily fit into this dichotomy, however, so I doubt it would work well as a distinguishing factor for a chart.

Exactly how and why a mortal becomes a deity is something we don't really address much because we know very, very little about it. Speculation on it should be kept to a minimum in my opinion. In any given case, they may have gotten help, earned their divine status all on their own through unknown feats, stolen divine power, or even a weird combination of all three. There's also the chance with many of them (if not most) that they're not divine beings at all, even though some on Tamriel came to call them gods. It's also possible that we players have misinterpreted in-game sources which were exaggerating when they referred to an entity as a "god".

One of the things the current chart does well is distinguishing the pantheons, which is necessary because there's a lot of dispute, both in the game and outside of it, about how some deities may relate to each other. The chart's arrangement makes it clear that some deities are thought to be related without resorting to guesswork about how they are associated with each other.

As for an "anchor god" approach, I'm not precisely sure what you mean, but I would imagine that trying to choose an anchor could be problematic. It seems like it would involve subordinating one culture's beliefs to those of another culture, and we have no basis for making those kinds of judgments.

Anyways, if you think another design can better convey what is known without inappropriate speculation or stating as fact matters which are disputed or ambiguous, you should make a rough draft in a sandbox and then return here. If you can garner a consensus that your approach would be more helpful to the reader, I'm sure some of the more experienced editors will help spruce up and implement it. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 01:54, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Very good points. I'm working my way through each of the articles to see what could be done. Prioritizing the nomenclature is definitely an issue, but the more I read through it, the more it definitely seems like it's possible to do.98.198.118.224 02:46, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Ebonarm

What about Ebonarm? He's a pretty big deal in the Iliac Bay region and is still mentioned in every major divinity's page as being one of their enemies. Yes, he's never mentioned again after Daggerfall, but considering that the Hammerfell Fighter's Guild was apparently constructed as a series of mosques in his honor, he's a major player in the Redguard pantheon who hates every daedra but Sheogorath and most of the Aedra. Why do we include obscure one-offs like Leki but not Ebonarm?Black jack king 13:20, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

We have an article on Ebonarm. Add him to the table if you wish. —Legoless 14:58, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

What about the Orsmer?

The Orcs have a pantheon and culture too and neglecting the Orcs is making this table of equivalent deities pretty absurd. It has Mauloch listed as a Nord Orc God equivalent of Malacath. While the real and TES worlds are filled with discrimination and racism, as a wiki, should not this site strive to provide a more egalitarian source of information that does not neglect the "Pig Children" ? — Unsigned comment by 24.25.238.216 (talk) at 10:11 on 13 August 2012

It does state on the page that "Finally, Orsimer gods are not listed as they don't have a specific province, but instead a kingdom in the High Rock - Orsinium. Although Orsimer Gods are not listed, they predominantly worship Malacath and/or Trinimac." Also I believe Mauloch is Malacath? — Kimi the Elf ^{(talk | contribs)} 10:27, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

the Osrmer are still an individual people worthy of individual notation. Malacath is only listed as a Dunmer God or a Tamriel Cult. The major difference between a cult and a religion is the derision and discrimination between Us and Them, such as worshipers of the Dragon Cult even though Dragon worship was the predominant religion in it's time.

is there substantiation that the Daedric Prince Malacath is the Mountain Fart, or is it pure speculation being presented as fact? Citation of resources and clarification is badly need on the wiki. the Lore entry on Malacath also lists his name as "Orkey" which would make him also that other mortal-turned-Divine, the Aedra Arkay.

Look at this from a cultural anthropology standpoint. On or earth most cultures will have found or made deities of primal ideals but the Hawaiian goddess Pele is not the Greek Prometheus or the Hindu Agni.

Malacath being Malak, Mauloch and Malooc as well as somehow still being (Orkey/Arkay) would also make him the only Daedra of the Hammerfall/Redgaurd pantheon- which is pretty unlikely. Names that sound alike are not enough to substantiate a claim. To say that a deity has been assimilated into a culture we really need a more than someone pointing and saying look, they're both smelly and ugly.

The Orsmer worship Daedra, first and foremost Malacath but their pantheon is much as the Dunmer being Daedra or Daedra Plus.

If the Dunmer have their own listing, so should the Orsmer.

Orcs need to go on or Dunmer go off. — Unsigned comment by 98.150.201.235 (talk) at 07:48 on 17 August 2012

Orkey is not Arkay, just because they sound similar does not make them the same person. Malacath is named Orkey here but i cannot find any reference to Arkay ever being called Orkey. Malacath is called Mauloch here. I cant think of any sources off hand that say the Orcs worship anyone other than Malacath, however it is well known that the dunmer worship many of the daedra so im not sure why you think the dunmer should not be on the page. — Kimi the Elf ^{(talk | contribs)} 08:13, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the article is does seem we list Orkey as the skyrim Arkay. however i cannot find any references to back this up. The only thing i could find that even mentioned them both was here but it does not say they are the same person. Unless i missed somthing I think it should be changed to Arkay. — Kimi the Elf ^{(talk | contribs)} 08:30, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Varieties of Faith makes it pretty clear that Orkey is supposed to be some strange fusion of Malacath and Arkay. —Legoless 10:49, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't see it saying anything like that. which part are you referring to? — Kimi the Elf ^{(talk | contribs)} 10:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Consistency in reference to assimilations/related gods

Just noticed that some, but not all, god entries list and link to the equivalent gods for the other races as listed in the pantheon table in the main Gods page. For example the T'sun entry lists the Altmeri, Bosmeri and Yokudan equivalents of T'sun, and suggests Zenithar as an equivalent too.

This referencing is a bit patchy - some articles include all equivalents, some include one or two, and some make no reference to equivalents. I just was wondering if a clean-up could be initiated to keep these references neat and consistent across all deity entries. We could either:

• Ensure that all god equivalents are listed in every god article (which could look a bit long winded)

• Remove all reference to equivalents in every god article, meaning the Pantheon on the Overview page is the only and definitive source for matching equivalent gods across races (cleanest, but not as user-friendly for people browsing the Gods pages without starting at the Overview)

• Include a link to the equivalent Imperial god in the articles for every non-Imperial god, and then include a link to each equivalent non-Imperial god in the Imperial god articles. For example, articles like Zeht would link to Zenithar, but not to Z'en or any of the other equivalents. Zenithar would then briefly list a link to all associated gods (Zeht, Z'en, etc). I personally think this is the best compromise between efficient and user-friendly, as the Imperial deity will be the most familiar to players who want to know more about the religion of the game, and would be a good branching point for them to see the various incarnations of an individual god.

Happy to take on the above if the community agrees, and happy to follow any of the above three options/discuss others. Threepwood87 (talk) 13:05, 9 September 2012 (EDT)

Table Change

I'd like to propose a change concerning the Orsimer. I think "This table contains all names of beings worshipped on the nine provinces of Tamriel." would suit better than "This table contains all names of beings worshipped by the nine major races in Tamriel." as the table seem more province based than race based. 201.83.106.178 02:17, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

I moved this, as it is only indirectly related to the Orsimer. You raise a good point, but I would sooner change the column headings than I would that sentence. After all, Skyrim, for example, doesn't worship anything; it's a place. It's the Nords who do the worshiping. I'm fairly certain the separation by province is derived from the province-based pantheons presented in Varieties of Faith in the Empire, but perhaps this is just one more inaccuracy from that book we should correct by putting the Race at the top of the column and the province, if applicable, underneath in parentheses. If we did that, the Orcs should probably have their own column. It won't have many entries on it, but it's certainly better than clumping them into the cults column, especially since Skyrim has given us more information on their belief system. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 02:34, 10 November 2012 (GMT)

not a true distinction

Sorry, Legoless, but the sentence "these are the gods who refused to help create Mundus" definitely tells about Daedric Princes (gods), not about all daedra. Phoenix Neko (talk) 17:25, 2 December 2012 (GMT)

No, all Daedra are the same type of being. Daedra means, "Not our ancestors", lesser Aedra became the the Earthbones and took part in creation, but are still Aedra, even if unnamed. So lesser Daedra who did not are their opposites, just as the Divines are to the Princes.--Br3admax (talk) 17:30, 2 December 2012 (GMT)

All Daedra are et'Ada. Maybe "gods" isn't the best word to use. —Legoless (talk) 18:49, 2 December 2012 (GMT)

I mean lesser daedra are not gods at all, so they should not be listed as gods. Solution could be listing Daedric Princes as gods and adding the line "For the lesser daedra who are not gods, see this page". Sorry again for my English... Phoenix Neko (talk) 01:13, 3 December 2012 (GMT)

This is the Elder Scrolls. There are no real "gods", simply spirits whom amass a certain amount of worship and power, like in this source. If enough people worshiped random any random Daedra enough, it may gain power. To mortals, anyone of these spirits can become a god. And even Storm Atronachs have been worshiped before. If you want to go into theory of what a ES "god" is or not go to the forums; I'd be happy to discuss it with you there.--Br3admax (talk) 01:23, 3 December 2012 (GMT)

The story of Vernaccus and Bourlor tells of how Vernaccus, a lesser daedra of no significance, rose to godhood simply due to mortal worship. —Legoless (talk) 01:46, 3 December 2012 (GMT)

I'd like too, but my limited capability to communicate in English could be a mess. I somethat agree. But if your theory that only worshipped/revered gods are real gods is right, it should be described in the main article (but as I know, forgotten gods do not appear to stop being gods). And the main article tells "Generally, there are several distinct groups into which the various gods fall", and lesser daedra don't appear to belong to any of such groups (especially to the group of "the original spirits" - they could be the piece of particular Daedric Prince, but it's not the same thing). I suggest to describe the difference more clearly or/and to describe another group of gods to which lesser daedra could belong to (if they grow to the power level of "normal" god). I'm so sorry again for my broken English...I agree, but if that story is not simply a tale (to speak strictly, this tale doesn't tell if Vernaccus rose to the godhood, it tells he was just worshipped, but still he never got the power comparatible to that of any another god), such occasion is still rare. It would be better if such cases would be properly described in the main article. Phoenix Neko (talk) 17:28, 4 December 2012 (GMT)

Please just keep all of the posts in chronological order. Also you don't need to apologize. Read the Monomyth. Daedric Lords became powerful, not because of their god-ness, but because they built up power from their worshipers, amassed more pieces of Oblivion into their bodies, and made their own worshipers. In the Elder Scrolls, you can not compare the word "god" to how it is used in our world. There are spirits, and nothing else.--Br3admax (talk) 18:07, 4 December 2012 (GMT)

Miraak?

Shouldn't Miraak be added to the table? He does have a cult following, after all... Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 21:41, 5 April 2013 (GMT)

Fair point. What of the Dragon Cult - they worshiped dragons in general, or do you think Alduin covers that? --Jimeee (talk) 14:52, 11 April 2013 (GMT)

I'd imagine so. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 17:56, 11 April 2013 (GMT)

Orkey is Arkay or Malacath?

Lore:Orkey says it's a name for Malacath, but it's put alongside Arkay on this page. We should probably bring the two pages into agreement one way or the other. Xolroc (talk) 01:15, 25 October 2013 (GMT)

The result of some muddled editing has been fixed on this page. An anon came along and attempted some edits but made a mess, resulting in two entries for Orkey. This was "rectified" by another user almost a year later who spotted two entries and removed one of them; unfortunately the wrong one. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 01:53, 25 October 2013 (GMT)

Orkey is the name of Malacath in Nordic pantheon (see Lore:The True Nature of Orcs). There is no reason why he could be listed as Mauloch instead. A300 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2013 (GMT)

BOTH Mauloch and Orkey are names used by the Nords to refer to Malacath (for example, see, in addition to the above: Lore:Varieties_of_Faith...). Currently Orkey is for some reason listed as a separate entry with no analogues; this is clearly wrong, but the page is locked so I can't fix it myself. --Pokari (talk) 00:34, 29 April 2014 (GMT)

Done. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 02:16, 29 April 2014 (GMT)

Although, come to think of it, in your above link, I do see Orkey listed in the same position where Arkay is listed for other groups. Is it possible that Orkey is both Arkay AND Malacath? And in that case could we imply that Arkay is Malacath also? There would be only one other collision in the table if we were to combine the rows, but I'm not sure if it's justified in lore to do so. We need a lore expert... — TheRealLurlock (talk) 02:21, 29 April 2014 (GMT)

Blessings of the Eight quest (Online)

The Blessings of the Eight quest has yet another list of the eight divines (shrines for them are in the Ayleid ruin called Torinaan). I am not sure how they should be incorporated into this.— Unsigned comment by Swordmage (talk • contribs)

Very interesting. Its seems that this is some more solid proof that Ayleids worshipped some Divines (along with Magnus and Meridia). Minor Edits was working on this a while back and we agreed that worship of the Divines was likely. Now we have a full pantheon, so I see no reason not to add this to the page. --Jimeee (talk) 10:27, 19 May 2014 (GMT)

On a similar note can we move Xarxes to the same row as Arkay given the book Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes and move Orkey out of the Mauloch category as the connection between Arkay and Orkey is stronger (I'm not saying they are't the 'same' in god terms, merely that the table isn't dynamic enough to handle every connection between gods...)

Also add Anu and/or Anui-El to the Altmer pantheon (preferably separately) as they certainly have a mythic role (in the [pre-]Dawn) where as the Dunmeri Saints don't)

Finally apologies if this doesn't show up properly, I can't preview my edit properly :( Sardeth42 (talk) 12:48, 14 June 2014 (GMT)

The quest journal entries mention Auri-El, but the map image mentions a shrine to Anu. Which is it? Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 14:47, 14 June 2014 (GMT)

I am just speculating, but Varities of Faith in the Empire states that Auri-El is the soul of Anuiel, who is himself the soul of Anu. Its possible the aylieds understood this and just used Anu = Aka/Anui-El. Quote from Variates of Faith below SajuukKhar (talk)`

Auri-El (King of the Aldmer): The Elven Akatosh is Auri-El. Auri-El is the soul of Anui-El, who, in turn, is the soul of Anu the Everything. — Unsigned comment by SajuukKhar (talk • contribs) at 16:47 on 14 June 2014 (GMT)

Just for future reference: Coils of the Father clarifies that it was a shrine to Anu Sardeth42 (talk) 10:35, 16 June 2014 (GMT)

Concerning new info and small tid-bits...

The book Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi talks of Ja-Kha'jay and Nirni, I can understand the former being left out, but could we add Nirni, even if she doesn't have an article, it would still acknowledge her existence. The book Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes also equates the titular gods... Is this not considered enough information to add their rows together? Sardeth42 (talk) 12:48, 17 June 2014 (GMT)

I am going to have to say no to Nirni. She is just personification of the land, like Ja-Kha'jay is personification of the Lunar Lattice. To me, that is not enough to warrant inclusion. ~ Ad intellige ^(talk) 05:27, 14 July 2014 (GMT)

What about the All-Maker

We should add the All-Maker (And possibly the adversary) as a tamriel cult

For their historical importance, and the fact that they are still revered by the Skall — Unsigned comment by Deathborne (talk • contribs) at 18:07 on 28 July 2014

They aren't really a cult. They are a local religion. There is a difference in that cults tend to pop up and go away, while the All-Maker worship has been consistent all along. Jeancey (talk) 18:11, 28 July 2014 (GMT)

As a religion then? It is reduced to a local religion but it is hinted that it was more spread out trough the ancestors of the Nords.

Also, why is all the cults added to the Lore:Gods pages does not seems to pop and go away, if its the Lore:Gods page def. for a cult. — Unsigned comment by Deathborne (talk • contribs) at 18:15 on 28 July 2014 (GMT)

Page Merges

Due to most of the Gods either having relatively small articles, or no articles at all and are stuffed into a list with other Gods starting with the same letter, would it be appropriate to merge the pages of the Gods that are the same being but known under a different name (like Akatosh/Auriel/Auri-El, Kyn/Kynareth, Shor/Lorkhan, etc), but have all historical/mythical information split into different categories (not unlike the Orthodoxy/Hersey categories on the Lore:Tiber_Septim page) --Rezalon (talk) 10:53, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

There's a difference between the gods and Tiber; there only ever was one Tiber with the opinions being over his background, while the gods have different ideals (for lack of a better word) associated with them by the different cultures. We wouldn't merge Akatosh and Alduin, despite ingame allegations that they are the same thing. Think of the Greek and Roman gods, they could also be placed beside each other on a table (Zeus/Jupiter, Eros/Cupid, Hades/Pluto, Poseidon/Neptune) but you wouldn't expect to see their wikipedia entries merged. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 11:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Well put. There are a couple topics which are merged, but it's generally due to lack of information. For instance, Sheggorath redirects to Sheogorath. When and if we get more information on Sheggorath, it'll probably get its own page. After all, Khajiit maintain that their demons are wholly different than the Daedra of other cultures. Anyway, things like Akatosh and Auri-El; they're manifestations or aspects of the same thing, but that does not make them the same being. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 15:40, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Ius

"Ius, who is mostly an easter egg."

Why is he an easter egg? Phoenix Neko (talk) 09:22, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

It's a reference to Rockpark in Arena. —Legoless (talk) 13:53, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll add this as a reference in the article. Phoenix Neko (talk) 18:53, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Table

the table is confusing make it normal not weird pls — Unsigned comment by 96.232.204.132 (talk) at 21:25 on 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Orkey as counterpart to Arkay

In ESO we see Orkey as the counterpart to Arkay in the Nordic pantheon, quoting from a loading screen: "Windhelm, like most Nord cities, has a Hall of the Dead where bodies are interred, overseen by a Priest of Orkey who ensures that corpses are properly consecrated and cared for", and inside the Hall of the Dead there is a Priest of Orkey, serving the same function as Priests of Arkay in TESV, so I think it would be safe to edit Orkey out of the Malacath line, where he is side by side with Mauloch, and put him in the Akray line (I don't have an account and wished to see if you guys agreed with this edit).

--189.101.99.221 23:05, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Might want to keep him in both, since he seems to be a combination of the two. —Legoless (talk) 23:28, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Magrus missing from table

He is mentioned in the book about Khajiit and their pantheon. Was this intentional? — Unsigned comment by EyeofKhajiit (talk • contribs) at 12:12 on 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Not for any discernible reason I can see. I've added him to the table. —Legoless (talk) 12:24, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Malak

Malak is arabic for Angel; I wonder what the Bethesda were thinking at the time? — Unsigned comment by Vorcil (talk • contribs) at 06:07 on 17 October 2016

Just another corruption of "Malacath". —Legoless (talk) 08:55, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Obviously the devs couldn't possibly check out all languages for curious namesakes. Phoenix Neko (talk) 21:42, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Masser and Secunda

I have never heard Khajiit refer to the moons by these names. I've only ever heard them call them Jone and Jode. I thought Masser and Secunda were the Imperial names for the moons. — Unsigned comment by Spaz (talk • contribs) at 03:34 on 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Akatosh in Nordic pantheon

Why is Akatosh included in the Nordic pantheon? More to that, why is he there as separate from Alduin? Regardless of their identities, the two are regarded as the same being under different names by everyone except an uneducated Nord. And nothing points to Akatosh as being part of the traditional Nordic pantheon. Andrefortes (talk) 16:33, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you've got your information, but Akatosh is recognised as a separate entity to Alduin by the people of Skyrim, it is those outside Skyrim that appear to have confused the names, though the Nords have never held them to have similar traits. The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy is the perfect example of this, the author clearly recognises that the Nords separate them, then contrary to the evidence simply assumes the Nords are idiots and states that the evidence has to be wrong because it doesn't fit the outcome he wanted. This perfectly explains why other sources like Varieties of Faith are incorrect, which you can see also says they barely resemble each other in Nord beliefs but still assumes that they must be the same. Even more evidence can be found in the game; Akatosh shrines are everywhere, and are one of the nine when all nine appear, but there are none for Alduin. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 18:08, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Nords definitely consider them to be separate. It's also worth separating them due to the Satakal/Alduin relationship. If we wanted to simplify this list based on them really being the same being, we could really cut it down to just one god. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 07:11, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Ruptga as Akotsh, Satakal as Alduin, and Orkey as Malacath

Why are they listen as equivlents. I mean the monomyth says that Ruptga is one of the spirits that formed after time began rather than the time God.

The Dragon God and the Missing God The Dragon God is always related to Time, and is universally revered as the "First God." He is often called Akatosh, "whose perch from Eternity allowed the day." He is the central God of the Cyrodilic Empire.

The Missing God is always related to the Mortal Plane, and is a key figure in the Human/Aldmeri schism. The "missing" refers to either his palpable absence from the pantheon (another mental distress that is interpreted a variety of ways), or the removal of his "divine spark" by the other immortals. He is often called Lorkhan, and his epitaphs are many, equally damnable and devout. Note that Tamriel and the Mortal Plane do not exist yet. The Gray Maybe is still the playground of the Original Spirits. Some are more bound to Anu's light, others to the unknowable void. Their constant flux and interplay increase their number, and their personalities take long to congeal. When Akatosh forms, Time begins, and it becomes easier for some spirits to realize themselves as beings with a past and a future. The strongest of the recognizable spirits crystallize: Mephala, Arkay, Y'ffre, Magnus, Rupgta [sic], etc., etc. Others remain as concepts, ideas, or emotions. One of the strongest of these, a barely formed urge that the others call Lorkhan, details a plan to create Mundus, the Mortal Plane. Humans, with the exception of the Redguards, see this act as a divine mercy, an enlightenment whereby lesser creatures can reach immortality. Aldmer, with the exception of the Dark Elves, see this act as a cruel deception, a trick that sundered their connection to the spirit plane.

If anything Satakal seems to match the traditional role of the Dragon God as Satakal forming allowed other Spirits too.

"Satak was First Serpent, the Snake who came Before, and all the worlds to come rested in the glimmer of its scales. But it was so big there was nothing but, and thus it was coiled around and around itself, and the worlds to come slid across each other but none had room to breathe or even be. And so the worlds called to something to save them, to let them out, but of course there was nothing outside the First Serpent, so aid had to come from inside it; this was Akel, the Hungry Stomach. Akel made itself known, and Satak could only think about what it was, and it was the best hunger, so it ate and ate. Soon there was enough room to live in the worlds and things began. These things were new and they often made mistakes, for there was hardly time to practice being things before. So most things ended quickly or were not good or gave up on themselves. Some things were about to start, but they were eaten up as Satak got to that part of its body. This was a violent time.

"Pretty soon Akel caused Satak to bite its own heart and that was the end. The hunger, though, refused to stop, even in death, and so the First Serpent shed its skin to begin anew. As the old world died, Satakal began, and when things realized this pattern so did they realize what their part in it was. They began to take names, like Ruptga or Tuwhacca, and they strode about looking for their kin. As Satakal ate itself over and over, the strongest spirits learned to bypass the cycle by moving at strange angles. They called this process the Walkabout, a way of striding between the worldskins. Ruptga was so big that he was able to place the stars in the sky so that weaker spirits might find their way easier. This practice became so easy for the spirits that it became a place, called the Far Shores, a time of waiting until the next skin.

Even if you want to make it easier for fans by drawing likely comparisions there are gods in the panthen that seem too fit the role better; which is what brings me to Orkey.

Not only do the Nords have Mauloch as their version of Malacath but Orkey fills in the exact same roles as Arkay from what we see in eso. Priest of Orkey in eso fufil the same roles as priest of Arkay in skyrim. I feel like this entire page needs a serious rewrite. It's only really confusing people. Storm105 (talk) 01:08, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Tsaesci Gods

I would like to propose a new section on the table for Tsaesci/Akaviri gods. We know at least 4 deities from ESO: Ilni, Myn, Nyfa and Zisa. (See Tale of The Elements) In addition, the worship of Z'en is said to originate in Argonian and Akaviri mythology. (See Varieties of Faith... and Varieties in Tamriel) TheynT (talk) 16:37, 21 January 2020 (UTC+1)

I agree, we definitely should have them on the table for Tsaesci. 173.79.46.18 20:32, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Satak as a Bosmer deity?

What is the basis for Satak being listed as the Bosmer variety of Anu? I am guessing it is a mistake, and was intended to be listed under Redguard, though I can't seem to fix it myself. — Unsigned comment by Stigwa (talk • contribs) at 21:16 on 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Fixed. —⁠Legoless (talk) 15:38, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Something I want to do but its a bit more complicated for me to figure out is give Orcs their own section.

Orcs are not as Monotheistic as thought, In Orcish Culture it varies, where Malacath is considered to be a Pretender or a Demon while Trinimac is their true god. So they are not always considered to be the same being. Then there is the Iron Orcs who's deity happens to be Stone itself, then there is that thing involving a major Clan who worshiped Mephala. Now we don't need to list that one because of the one clan doing it thing. But the Primary ones are Trinimac, Malacath, Mauloch and Stone. Which makes up four deities. Or five if Mephala the Silver Spider is counted. Mauloch is also considered to be an Aedric Version of Malacath. Where as Malacath is a Daedric Prince. So there is at least three versions of their religion.

We right now are listing variations that can easily be done with the Orcs. As they do in fact have variations, to their religion. It also looks bad not having them have their own list. Given what we know from Eso, and the lore that it has introduced. If someone is willing to figure out how to code in their own Pantheon Table that would be very good to have. They deserve one just as much as any other race.TheVampKnight (talk) 04:19, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Which clan worshipped Mephala? The Rim of the Sky (talk) 22:08, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

The Morkul Clan at one point in time, there is info on it here https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Gharakul%27s_Journal TheVampKnight (talk) 03:16, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Iron Orcs don't have a deity named Stone, they revere sacred stones in upper Craglorn. That's two very different things. Jacksol (talk) 04:54, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't think a single cult is enough to warrant us claiming Mephala is an "Orcish deity". -MolagBallet (talk) 05:37, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Jack and Molag. "Stone" isn't a god. Mauloch is practically the same entity as Trinimac/Malacath but he isn't considered a Daedra by his worshippers. Some Orcs just removed the Daedric aspect of their god, probably since Daedra worship is shunned.--Jimeee (talk) 09:32, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

(←) Why not organize the table in terms of race/culture rather than region? IRL, religion and spirituality correlate way more with culture than region (meaning a place with politically-drawn borders), and this is reflected in how the wiki pages are set up imo. For example, the lore page for Khajiit has a Religion section, but the one for Elsweyr doesn't. Ayleids were from Cyrodiil, but there are Ayleid ruins in present-day Valenwood,High Rock, Black Marsh, etc. — Unsigned comment by 192.252.212.51 (talk) at 03:59 on 23 October 2021

Meridia as an ancestral deity of Altmer\ Aldmer

Meridia is the Daedric prince associated with lights and hatred of all things undead. I've read in some sources that she was regarded as one of the ancestral spirits of the High Elves (or at least the Ayleids), who perceived her differently from the Daedra. If this is the case, shouldn't she be included into the list of Altmer deities?--87.255.89.160 21:17, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

What sources? I've never seen any indication of her being an aldmer/altmer deity at all. The fact is she was the primary main deity for the Ayleids. The ALtmer are the most extreme aedra worshiping society and mirror the Aylieds in that. We do know there is still Daedric Cults that thrive there, they ain't very tolerated in the Summerset Isles. Heck even daedric summoming by mages is illegal there according to ESO lore. A fringe cult deity yes, but a mainstream deity no. Meridia worship wouldn't be tolerated in Summerset so I don't think she should be included there. TheVampKnight (talk) 23:35, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Ithelia

Noticed Ithelia hasn't been added yet, so this is just a heads up, as I can't add her to the list myself due to the semi-protection on the page. SpectresAurora (talk) 00:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Added to the last column. Thank you for pointing this out! —Dillonn241 (talk) 07:30, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Akatosh Parallels

Admittedly, including Almalexia in the Akatosh row was just to fill out every race having a version of Akatosh (except the Orcs, I guess), so maybe it was a reach on my part. But I definitely think Atakota and Satakal belong up there. As I mentioned in my edit summary, Satakal is directly stated to be the Yokudan/Redguard variation of Akatosh in the German translation of The Monomyth. The wiki treats localized text translations as official lore; see Lore:Jill.

Atakota - I mean, the name alone is very similar to Akatosh. But Children of the Root confirms the connection. "But now Atakota was not in conflict, and things had time to begin and end." Atakota creates linearity and events, like Akatosh as the god of time. "They ate until they broke Atakota", dragon break allusion. "They drank of blood and sap, and they grew scales and fangs and wings.", the birth of Dragons, something solely credited to Akatosh. Mindtrait0r (talk) 14:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

This chart despite me doing a little bit of work on it as of recent would probably be more productive to delete rather than have more exhaustive talk page discussions about because it’s full of speculation and gray areas abound. That said, you are wrong about Satakal and Atakota. The only Redguard god who is directly conflated with Akatosh in official sources is Ruptga, not Satakal. Satakal is directly conflated with Alduin as they both serve as world eaters who begin and end the cycle. Atakota is a clear cut mirror of Satakal and has these same world eater attributes. Each of his scales are said to be a world he ate. As I said in the edit summary, Atakota and Satakal are only tied to Akatosh in so much as they are tied to Alduin, the controversial maybe son of maybe mirror brother of Akatosh. If they go in any section other than the lone one they are in now, it would need to be Alduin's due to their world eater nature and official sources linking Satakal to Alduin. Dcking20 (talk) 15:21, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Like I said, it comes from the translation of The Monomyth. This is the direct quote: "'Satakal the Worldskin' (Anu as Satak, Padomay as Akel, Akatosh as Satakal, Lorkhan as Sep.)" Here's a link: [1]. It's authoritative and in-game, counting as official lore per precedent of other translated text sources on UESP. If Satakal is also paralleled to Alduin, that's great, since the Nord part of the Akatosh row also says Alduin. Mindtrait0r (talk) 15:35, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Lol you aren’t getting it, Satakal was only ever the Hammerfell Akatosh answer insofar as Alduin was the Nordic Akatosh answer. As world eaters who are directly linked to Alduin, they would go in the below box of the chart not the Akatosh chart. Even if we assume the foreign translation source is a fine and good source, it definitely doesn’t take precedent over the proper translation unambiguous sources that liken Satakal to Alduin and place a different Yokudan god, Ruptga as the Akatosh as equivalent. Ruptga would go in the Akatosh spot over Satakal and Satakal and Atakota could go in the Alduin barrier but I would keep them all in their own tiers as they stand now as it accounts better for the nuance and novelty of these yokudan gods. Dcking20 (talk) 15:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

After a search for the keywords "Ruptga" and "Akatosh" I found no sources conflating them to any extent. Could you share which source this comes from? And no, Satakal being comparable to Alduin is not mutually exclusive with Akatosh. Let's not forget that until Skyrim Alduin was just the Nordic name for Akatosh, while they're almost certainly different deities that doesn't mean everyone in-universe knows that or worships them in that way. All that said, though, I'm not opposed to the removal of this chart. Mindtrait0r (talk) 15:47, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

"Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time: The chief deity, and first of the pantheon to establish the Beginning Place. He is the embodiment of endurance, invincibility, and everlasting legitimacy. The Crowns know him by the name Tall Papa."-Lore:The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/Hammerfell

"Zeht (God of Farms):Yokudan god of agriculture who renounced his father after the world was created, which is why Tall Papa makes it so hard to grow food."

"Zeht (God of Farms):Yokudan god of agriculture who renounced his father after the world was created, which is why Akatosh makes it so hard to grow food."

Here is the sources on the Ruptga/Akatosh conflation, as for the Alduin/Aka thing. The major point is with Satakal and Atakota having major world eater spheres, which is the domain of Alduin, it doesn’t make sense to put them specifically in the Akatosh section. They should go in the world eater section with Alduin, Thartaag, and Alkhan, or stay as they stand now in their own section as wholly unique Anu/Padomay fusions. But also since it’s been brought up for the record, I would say it’s probably a better idea to delete this section or maybe add this chart to General space. Dcking20 (talk) 15:58, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

(←) Personally, there appears to be an issue with trying to match parallels in this chart. Not with the idea as a whole, but there is a disconnect between cultures identifying gods and actual ontological equivalence. Ontologically, Alduin is not Akatosh, Satakal is not Alduin or Akatosh, and Ruptga is not Akatosh. All of their myths and roles are different. But culturally, they are all conflated with each other at different times. Imperials sometimes saw Alduin as Nordic Akatosh (and sometimes the Nords saw Akatosh as the Imperial Alduin). Imperials also sometimes saw Satakal as Akatosh, and sometimes Ruptga as Akatosh. But it is clear from dialogue and events in TES V that Alduin and Akatosh are not the same. The myths of Ruptga show him as a god that leads others in the Walkabout, which is nothing like any Akatosh myth. He is also described as the creator of Sep, but the creator of Lorkhan was debatably Sithis, but definitely not Akatosh. Satakal is a world-eater like Alduin, but then the myths describe him as a combination of Satak and Akel, Anu and Padomay. If we try to match up some of these mirror aspects in a line, things start to fall apart. Shor is Lorkhan is Shezzar is Lorkhaj is Lorkh is Sheor is Sep, because they are all trickster/persuader and creator deities that fight on behalf of mankind. But the same does not work with Akatosh. Akatosh is Auri-El is Alkosh, but not Alduin. Alduin is Alkhan is (maybe) Thartaag, but Satakal and Atakota are more than just world-enders. Different cultures worship the Time Dragon Akatosh, the Ancestor Elf-King Auri-El, the World-Eater Alduin, or the God of Everything Satakal. To use the Khajiit as a reference, Satakal is like Akha, Alkosh is like Akatosh, and Alkhan is like Alduin. But other cultures see them all as the same. The conflation between Akatosh and Alduin seems to be cultural at best, as Nords and Imperials debate, but ontologically Alduin isn't Akatosh. He may be a mirror aspect as "end of time", but they are still separate entities worshipped in very different ways. I think this chart needs to identify itself as either a chart of cultural syncretism or as a chart of ontological mirror aspects, then go from there. As it is now, it seems to be about ontology, but the justifications stem from culture, hence where I think the confusion comes from. BananaKing5 (talk) 17:27, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Reachmen and Druids

Should we add the Reach and the Systres to the chart to show Reachmen and Druidic religions? Right now, High Rock just covers mainstream Breton religion, but the Reachmen and Druids differ significantly from that. BananaKing5 (talk) 17:37, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Reachman definitely, Druids are mostly just Y'ffre and a bunch of nature spirits which probably wouldn’t go on this chart so I would say they can stay off for now. — Unsigned comment by Dcking20 (talk • contribs) at 17:55 on 29 March 2024 (UTC)