Lore talk:Fourth Era/Archive 1

This is an archive of past Lore talk:Fourth Era discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Year/Era Variance & Other Possible Edits

As in my other comment about year variance, (view it by clicking here) I think the time of the events involving Sheogorath should be removed or changed to better reflect the possibilities of players since you can easily complete the SI questline before the main one. Also, Uriel's death didn't really mark the end of the 3rd Era, Martin's death, or (personally) the end of the Oblivion crisis, the Dragonfires, and the Amulet of Kings did. If there is no way to go about this that suits the needs and preferences of the wiki, I think it's OK to leave it how it is, or if there is another reason why it needs to stay as-is, please respond stating why.

I say it should not be changed, only put in as a subnote that it MAY have happened in 3rd era 433, but most debates state that it was AFTER the defeat of Menrunes Dagon.--Juz 12:07, 6 May 2008 (EDT)

I don't see why this has to be in the wiki at all. Other than in Martin's final monologue and Emeror Uriel's introduction, no mention is ever made to the Era changing. Additionally, in Martin and Uriel's little speeches, the connotations in their talk about the Eras is certainly not definite. Besides I think if the devs wanted the era to change after the Main quest, or at any other time, they would have added a script to do so. Perhaps in the next ES game but i think it is a bit early now.

One edit I think needs to be made is the last part in which the player is called the first mortal to sit on the throne. We have no evidence to suggest, at that point, the player is still "mortal". Jygallag even stated it was uncertain whether or not the player was a mortal or a god. Even then, he mentions the player may "grow to his position", possibly implying that, although the player may be less then a god now, he may become a god and/or (depending on your theories on the daedra) a true daedric prince. Also note that Sheogorath himself says that he does not know if a mortal cannot become a daedric prince. Finally, Dyus states the player is going through or going to go through apotheosis, or the raising to a divine status. Given the uncertainties surrounding the nature of the player upon becoming Sheogorath, it seems prudent that the final part of the last entry for the 4th era stating the player is the first mortal to sit on the throne of madness be removed or at the very least edited to reflect the uncertainty. Ideally, it should be changed to something along the lines of "The Player becomes the new Sheogorath" as that much is indisputable.

Malacath was a mortal

Where are you getting this? Malacath was Trinimac and an Aedra. It is physically impossible for a mortal to be and Daedric Prince since they are et'ada, but I will not contest your edit because Arden-Sul may have been the Sheogorath we saw in SI, just as the player was. There is a slight difference between entity and sphere that isn't well understood. Temple-Zero 09:54, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

I didn't have enough space in my edit summary to explain fully and since roughly the same edit was reverted some months back, I didn't bother to expand. The main reason for reverting is discussed above (we don't know if the player is mortal or not), but the point about Malacath's mortality is one that was discussed a while back. Basically, if I remember correctly, there was some confusion about whether Mauloch (the hero defeated at the Battle of Dragon Wall) = Mauloch (Malacath). Add that to the Gortwog's heretical view about Trinimac and Malacath being separate entities and the possibility of the apotheosis of Mauloch came up. Yes, it's probably not true but the undo is still valid anyway. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 12:32, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

Also, this article is just supposed to provide a minimal summary of the events. Whether or not the player is the first mortal to take a daedric throne is really not a crucial piece of information for a minimal summary. Ultimately, the blurb should link to an article which provides more complete information -- but as with most wiki projects, it hasn't been done yet ;) Speaking of unfinished wiki projects, I'm also trying to put together some guidelines for the lore namespace. One that I'm going to propose is that overview articles, such as Fourth Era and Third Era, should not include any contested details. In my opinion, if there is any uncertainty about a detail, then it should be moved to the full article (where links and more complete discussion are possible), and either deleted from the overview or rephrased to be neutral. --Nephele^Talk 14:20, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

As I said, I agreed with the editor's action, I was just intrigued by the summary. Terms describing SI are usually shoehorned. "Wear the Mantle of a God." <--- prime perpetrator

Deleted items

• The Feud between the Fighters Guild and the Blackwood Company ends in the Fighters Guild's favor, after rigourous investigations by the current Champion Modryn Oreyn and the new Master indicated that the Blackwood Company was involved in shady business and employed questionable tactics when completing contracts.
• An Elder Scroll is stolen from the Imperial Palace by a member of the Thieves Guild.
• Count Corvus Umbranox of Anvil reappears and retakes the throne of Anvil.
• A traitor in the Dark Brotherhood manipulates their newest member in killing of most of the Black Hand.
• A floating island appeared in Niben bay, on which a door to the Shivering Isles was opened by Sheogorath in his search for a champion.

I've moved these because they're far too unimportant for inclusion on either this or the Third Era page. We don't include the minutiae of the mages guild quests for Daggerfall, Morrowind or anything else. I made an exception with the KotN, because they are an organisation with far more relevance to Lore. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 12:43, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

Mannimarco's entry might be worth putting back in - the character had significant relevance outside of Oblivion. (He was in Daggerfall as well.) I believe Hannibal Traven's name came up a few times in Morrowind as well. (As well as Chancellor Occato.) Agreed on the rest though - nothing extremely lore-significant about those. However, Mannimarco probably belongs in the Third Era, not the Fourth. My take on things is that all of the Oblivion quests prior to the expansions should be regarded as taking place prior to the end of the Main Quest, which would be the event that marks the end of the Third Era. Even though it's possible to complete the Main Quest prior to the individual faction quests, it seems like the MQ should really be regarded as the "end of the game", while the others are just side-shows that occur before that. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 12:54, 1 November 2008 (EDT)

I too believe Mannimarco's entry should be put in. The defeat of the most powerful mage is definately something of note.--Vespian ^Talk 5:44, 14 April (EDT)

I agree. It's the resolution of a very long character arc, whether you think it's lackluster or not.Temple-Zero 17:00, 15 April 2009 (EDT)

Okay, I've put that one back, although I think the timeline would benefit from some kind of explanation as to how this is the same person (see the full article on Mannimarco). I still don't think the others should be there and will remove them if re-added. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 08:45, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

I do think the Stolen elder scroll is worth mentioning... It is unpreceeded. And I think that it does have some relevance to lore. Besides, if we are deleting the entry about umbranox reappearing, maybe we should delete the entry about him vanishing, becouse I think that one is not very important as well.--Max Welrod 08:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I do agree. We should have both or neither. –Elliot ^talk 09:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

4th era!...or no?...

even everybody says that 3ird era is over it isnt! the date still reads 3e435!!!! ....................or it is a bug????????..................

The Eras are based off the Imperial Dynasties.. When the Septim Dynasty ends, so does the Third Era. It's not so much a bug as it is just not changing. Technically, if you've finished the Main Quest, the 4th Era has started.

I hope that answers your question. Ninja Hinder 13:39, 16 February 2009 (EST)

Suggestions:

The Daedra attempt to destroy the city of Bruma, and a hero went into the great geat and destroyed it, ending the attack.

The city of Kvatch is destroyed by the daedra, the count dies, and the hero of kvatch saves it's few survivors

The mythic dawn are broken up upon the death of their leader, Mankar Camoran

The current serving captain of the imperial gaurd, Adammus Philida, is killad by an assasin.

these are my suggestions. i will try to think of more, it is quite fun.--Arch-Mage Matt 19:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, actually, it all happened in the third era. The third era ends when martin dies. --Max Welrod 08:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I've noticed that things like the refounding of the knights of nine happened in the 3rd era but that content came after the main quest should they be moved to 4th?--Pat8u 10:44, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

This keeps coming up. Since there's no necessary order to events in Oblivion, we've decided to adopt a standard where everything that happens in TES IV is in the third era, not the fourth. rpeh •T•C•E• 11:25, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Death of mannimarco

I don't think there are any cannon sources puting it on the fourth era. You could kill him before martin dies... I suggest we remove it until Bethesda creates canon lore (in-game or otherwise) stating when the king of worms died. --Max Welrod 08:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Basically, the way I see it is that the main quest happens and then all side quests happens (in terms of affecting lore). So, all the side quests happen in the Fourth Era. –Elliot ^talk 09:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

All right, then. Makes sense. --Max Welrod 05:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Applying that logic to Morrowind would mean that every faction quest was completed by the same person, which is impossible instead of merely ridiculous.132.162.67.58 01:54, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Lore can have multiple people in the game with just one being the Nerevarine. Or, they can pull a Warp of the West effect and solve it with chaos. Regardless, it isn't impossible (since everything does happen). –Elliot ^talk 01:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Necessarily. The only grounds you have for assuming that the Main Quest happens first is that the MQ is the first task given to the PC. Thus the PC's other actions followed the completion is the MQ. If multiple people were involved in the faction quests (which they obviously were), then you cannot assume that the MQ was resolved first.132.162.67.58 21:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

If multiple people were involved in the faction quests (which they obviously were) and then mean that every faction quest was completed by the same person, which is impossible instead of merely ridiculous: they kind of contradict. We can't assume either happens. Also, I am not against putting them in one section over the other, I just think we need to reach consensus. But a strong point is that the Imperial Library has the MQ within Oblivion happening after all of the side quests. Then they have the upcoming novels as the continuing of the Fourth Era. –Elliot ^talk 22:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

i know this is a old discussion and its on the wrong era but the two that invlolve the count of anvil are still there and are quite irrelevent apart from the part about the gray foxs curse so i say that they should be removed and one along the lines of: An Elder Scroll is stolen from the imperial palace and used to lift the curse of the gray foxs cowl. should be put in instead (Eddie the head 09:48, 27 July 2011 (UTC))

Umbriel?

Okay, I just looked this up, and apparently it's a novel BASED on the Elder Scrolls. Why is it on this page? Is it written by someone directly affiliated with The Elder Scrolls series? Has information been released that there will be an eventual Umbriel? If not, I think it should be removed.— Unsigned comment by 74.127.90.245 (talk) on October 11, 2009

While the Infernal City will not likely appear in a game, the book has been approved by Bethesda. This means that the event is likely canon and will at least be mentioned in future installments of the series. Since this site is dedicated to the entirty of the ES universe, the info should stay, unless Bethesda comes out and says otherwise. Dlarsh^{(Talk,Contribs,E-mail)} 01:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for clearing that up. I only did a little bit of research (searched the book title, heh), so I didn't know for sure or not. :) — Unsigned comment by 74.127.90.245 (talk) on October 12, 2009

How could the Book be published without being canon? It uses the copyright of TES. Which means the people at bethesda let him write it. Of course they made sure what he wrote was correct. — Unsigned comment by 68.112.109.154 (talk) at 23:39 on 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Just because it has been liscenced from Bethesda doesn't mean it is true according to Tamrielic history. This seems to be more along the lines of liscenced fan fiction. Mutt 01:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes it does. Bethesda gave Greg Keyes access to their own internal Lore database, including information never seen outside Bethesda HQ. I know several people at TIL don't like it, but The Infernal City is official lore, and we treat it as such. rpeh •T•C•E• 10:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Third or Fourth Era?

I'd like to propose that, since the end of TESIV is supposed to be the end of the third era, we adopt the policy that anything that happened in Oblivion, Shivering Isles, or Oblivion's Official Plug-ins be considered third era. --GK^Talk2me 01:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. It follows the same style that the IL uses, and it makes the most sense. –Elliot ^talk 03:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. The game's calendar never actually changes to the Fourth Era. Everything except for Umbriel in 4E40 should be considered Third Era. --Oblivion nerd 14:33, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

The Elder Scrolls V

Is there any possibility that The Elder Scrolls V will take place is Black Marsh,Because Black Marsh was the first to secede, The city of Lilmoth was destroyed,and That they had Invaded and Conquered Morrowind?Will The Elder Scrolls V have to do with Black Marsh and Elsweyr's Secession,Possible problems with Black Marsh involving their Invasion of Morrowind,or about how the slave trade is destroyed.— Unsigned comment by ChrisRodriguez (talk • contribs) at 23:33 on 4 December 2009 (UTC)

No one knows. Anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's. –Elliot ^talk 23:33, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

One thing is for sure, we are not going back to morrowind. It has been destroyed mostly by the ministry of truths crash into vivec city and the parts left of morrowind have been taken over by Argonians. I personaly am hoping for Skyrim. — Unsigned comment by 68.112.109.154 (talk) at 23:42 on 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the title "Skyrim" has recently been trademarked by Bethesda and its mostly common knowledge at this point that it will be based in Skyrim ^_^ It should have a much greater level of content and detail to make up for the small size compared to Oblivion,, or just more dlc's like Shivering Isles Mor'tar'iit 04:14, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Titus Mede's Takeover

I think that mentioning that Titus Mede overtook the Imperial City by force (I recall a quote saying he had only a thousand men) is an important moment in the 4th era timeline. Wanted to get opinions before I edited though. Hopefully we'll learn more about that civil war in TES V. Chunk of Ham 10:55, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Can you give a page number? I am not one for searching down obscure references. :) –Elliot ^talk 05:50, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I think I have discovered the date on which the dear Titus Mede became Emperor. At least the year. In Skyrim, the book Rising Threat IV seems to suggest that he took control around 4E29. Cross-reference the date of the Thalmor takeover of Valenwood and the establishment of the Dominion, which is already established in the Timeline of the Fourth Era.

4E40 - is this correct date of Infernal City?

According the book Vuhon vanished into Oblivion forty-three years before events of Infernal city. This happened in the same time Morrowind was destroyed (4th era - we have not such news in Oblivion) So correct date of Infernal city events should be (Morrowind destroying date) + (43) but not 40

On which page does it say this? I don't recall the reference off the top of my head, but that doesn't mean it's not there... if so, we should probably change it, though to what I'm not sure. --GK^talk2me 04:07, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I happened across it; it's on p.213, "I believe its master is a man named Vuhon. He vanished into Oblivion forty-three years ago, and now I think he's come back." I've changed the page accordingly. --GK^talk2me 05:01, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Baar Dau and the Mad God

If the champion of Cyrodiil replaces the Mad God after the Greymarch in "The Shivering Isles", couldn't he have stopped Baar Dau and saved Vvardenfell and the rest of Morrowind? See: The Shrine of Daring Skober 10:52, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

The moon is out of Sheogorath's control so there's nothing the player could do about it. See Sermon 33, where Vivec comments that he "shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction". In other words, it's entirely down to Vivec. rpeh •T•C•E• 11:10, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

How sad... I've been playing Morrowind recently and can't stop thinking about how every thing will change after the cataclysm. Skober 12:45, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Vivec and the fate of Morrowind

According to the History page for Fourth Era, Morrowind is destoryed from the Ministry of Truth due to Vivec's wavering power. This does not appear to be accurate, since in the game you prevent The Ministry from falling and creating the catastrophe that follows. Ergo this does not actually happen after all. Odessus 03:23, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, you don't stop the ministry falling in Morrowind - where do you think that happens? The info about the ministry crashing to earth comes from The Infernal City, an official TES novel by Greg Keyes. rpeh •T•C•E• 09:48, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm certain that you can go to Vivec city and make a donation to one of the little signs or whatever they are, the one at the temple; once you donate it gives you levitation and says something like "you have prevented the destruction of Vivec"

Afraid not. I gotta be with rpeh here, srry. --DKong27 ^{Talk Cont} 02:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The message is "Here Vivec stopped the moon before it crashed into Vivec City. The moon levitates now above the city and is known as the Ministry of Truth." then once you make the offering, you get "The Grace of Daring: Thank you for your daring, Lord Vivec. I shall not shun risk, nor hide behind the mask of cautious counsel, for fortune favors the bold." rpeh •T•C•E• 10:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, so it does say the moon was stopped, so what gives? — Unsigned comment by Odessus (talk • contribs) on 28 November 2010

Yes, by Vivec not you. When Vivec loses his power, the moon crashes. rpeh •T•C•E• 17:34, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I've got a question about this that I am hoping that somebody who has read the book could explain; In the game you visit the Ministry of Truth and are familiar with its size. How can that small meteor destroy much of the island? The city of Vivec being destroyed would make sense but how can that destroy Balmora, Caldera, the Dunmer Strongholds, etc.? Stouf761 04:07, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

(←) For one thing, the velocity of the meteor was retained, so it was hurled into the city with the same force it would've had if it had never been stopped. For another, the impact caused Red Mountain to erupt, destroying the entire island of Vvardenfell. --GK^talk2me 04:15, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Thalmor

Noticed that the Thalmor and the revived Aldmeri dominion aren't mentioned. Is this not significant enough to warrant a place on the page?--217.39.32.125 23:31, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

For whatever reason, this question seems to have been overlooked. I myself wonder why this event is not included. The return of the Thalmor does, after all, seem to be a major event considering that it shows the splintering of the Empire (presumably) early on. Perhaps someone else can answer this question? Kalis Agea 02:47, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

If something's not on the timeline it's because nobody has added it. rpeh •T•C•E• 09:38, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I recently added several entries concerning the Thalmor. For anyone who's interested, look for a book titled "The Great War". There's a copy of it in Dragonsreach (the Jarl's palace) in Whiterun, on a shelf near the map.92.28.61.50 22:50, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

possibly the end of nirn?

So much destruction happens in the 4 era is it possible for nirns destruction too? (Timedragon1 16:06, 21 May 2011 (UTC))

while the awnse is yes thats not really fair after all it is possible that it could of been destroyed 1st 2nd 3rd era's

if you look at hsitory the start and end of all ares is chaotic Wolfy 16:13, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

yah,but this era has more chaos than the other ones for example:

• umbriel destroys most of morrowwind
• red mountain destroys vvadenfell
• civil wars everywhere
• hammerfell is about to collapse
• and lastly dragons return and destroy most of skyrim — Unsigned comment by Timedragon1 (talk • contribs) at 17:19 on 21 May 2011

Not really

go to the lore and look at the start of the 1st era, 2nd and 3rd, its really not even thouugh it seems like it Wolfy 16:30, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Look at the interregnum in particular. That was complete chaos that lasted for hundreds of years. Also, the dragons returned well after an Emperor had taken power again. That would indicate that Tamriel is no more weak than it has been in previous Elder Scrolls games (Albeit, the dragons do intend to destroy the world to make a new one). And for the complete destruction of nirn to occur, that would mean Akavir, Atmora, Yokuda (Well, most sources state that has already been destroyed) and possibly other continents would be destroyed in the process. It is impossible that the chaos in Tamriel would indicate the complete destruction of these lands. And out of curiosity, where do you get that hammerfell is about to collapse? (I understand that a civil war between the Crowns, Forebears and Lhutonics is most likely after the fall of the Empire). Right-Hand-Of-Sithis 10:33, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

This discussion is straying into speculation. It might be better to continue it on the forums. --Legoless 18:44, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

skyrim events

i have seen in quite a few places edits being reverted because they are about what we know of skyrim and it isnt published yet so according to that we shouldnt have the skyrim events on the timeline (Eddie the head 09:37, 27 July 2011 (UTC))

You're probably right, but my thinking is that if we remove it someone will only put it back in again. In this case, the text is so brief and so generic that it's better to stick with this than go through the edit war. rpeh •T•C•E• 10:52, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I just want to point out that in the Skyrim gameplay demo if you pause at the time when the map interface is being shown you can see in the bottom right corner the date is 4E 201 79.97.40.245 21:52, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

That's a good observation. I think it should be added to the article. --Legoless 23:30, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

New events, unsure of when they occured

Here's a quote from a loading screen at one of the handsons at Eurogamer: "The Empire only managed to end "The Great War" against the Aldmeri Dominion with the Concordat of White Gold"

So two new events of some great significance, "The Great War" fought between the Empire and the Thalmor - presumably neither side was victorious, and the "Concordat of White Gold" - A concordat is an agreement between the Holy See of the Catholic Church and a sovereign state on religious matters. -

Yeah, no idea when or which Century, other than it's the first or second. --OblivionDuruza 10:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Assassination of the Mane?

I've seen countless websites (even the Imperial Library) say that after the Oblivion Crisis, the Mane of Elsweyr was assassinated, which then led to Elsweyr seceding from the empire. Why don't we have anything on this? --Knight 11:48, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I was aware that they succeeded from the Empire (Noted at Lore:Elsweyr), however, I was unaware of why. Does anyone have a source for this info? --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 11:59, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Apparently this was revealed in The Infernal City. --Knight 12:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Werewolf?

Can we say not necessarily proven events happened in the time line? In the companions section it talks of the Dovahkiin being a werewolf, which does not necessarily have to happen.--Br3admax 04:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

See the above section. --Legoless 13:21, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

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