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UESPWiki talk:Oblivion NPC Redesign Project/Archive 3

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This is an archive of past UESPWiki talk:Oblivion NPC Redesign Project discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

VIP NPCs

I just posted a huge load of info on Methredhel’s page. This is, in many ways, my take on how the really important NPCs could be handled by the ONPCRP. By really important, I mean NPCs that in one way or the other “evolves” with the player, who are involved in several quests and changes locations ect ect. I think it’s neat to have the full and complete information on their page (in Meth’s case, because all the dialogue shows just how powerful she gets in the TG), so I tried something different by making the Quest-specific Events-section at the bottom of the page. Luckily, there are very few NPCs who deserve this treatment so it’s not something that is going to slow us down – but I think some of them do. NPCs like Modryn Oreyn, Amusei or Maglir should be considered, along with many of the Count’s and Countesses in the game. Anyway, I just wanted to post my thoughts and reasons, in case anybody thinks the Meth page is a bit “too much”.

Oh, and I would be really REALLY happy if some of you PC people could do a new image of her - and another image to the Misdirection-section, preferably in the company of Dynari Amnis. --Krusty 12:20, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I know this is a little bit late but, in my personal opinion, this could get out of hand really quick. Methredel, Amusei, Ocheeva, Vicente Valtieri and other major NPC have a decent amount of unique dialogue, but there are other NPCs that have even more unique dialogue, like Martin, Mankar Camoran, Sheogorath, Thadon, etc. All of them are people that play a huge part in both Oblivion and the Shivering Isles main quest, and they have a bunch of dialogue. So unless we're planning to make all their pages similar to Methredhel's, I think we should either not list their quest dialogue at all or find a better solution. Thoughts? --MC• S'drassa •T2M 21:40, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
I have to say I like Krusty's idea and I'm impressed by the Methredhel page. However, as S'drassa pointed out this can easily get out of hand, so my suggestions for NPCs are:
  • OB: Modryn Oren, Maglir, Martin, Jauffre, Baurus + Amusei and Lucien Lachance (both maybes)
  • SI: Relymna Verenim and Sheogorath + Thadon and Syl (a little less in-detail)
Hopefully this will keep us from getting submerged with info. Quest dialogue should also be kept under control: only the most significant parts should be included. --SerCenKing Talk 20:36, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
It sounds good to me, although we should consider that there are still many other NPCs with the same characteristics, so my idea is to list all the important NPCs in the main page, so new contributors can know how to write their articles (or we can remember which are ;) ). By the way, I started with Una Armina, and my plan was adding her dialogue for each oddity that you deliver to her, but since this topic came up I would like to know if that is a good idea, after all it could become a very large page with a bunch of dialogue in it. Comments? --MC• S'drassa •T2M 20:52, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
We can't be so hasty in our decision; I'd prefer having more members of the redesign project participate in this discussion. Reading Methredel's page, it seems like more of a biography then character info, which is what an NPC's page is supposed to list. Also, there's no info on there that couldn't be found on the respective quest page. Adding redundant info won't help, but maybe writing it in the style of a biography, which can include characteristics, quest involvement, personal info (like her possibly being a lesbian, see her talk page), could bring a different perspective to VIP NPCs. Of course, this is only an opinion :) -- Jplatinum16 22:03, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
A quick reply to S’drassa: Since we are going out of our way with the Shivering-NPC’s and all the interesting/funny dialogue Beth wrote for them, you might as well go ahead and add everything – just take a look at this page if you get scared. ;) --Krusty 23:30, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Well, now that I know that the only thing left is to find the random oddities first (ugh). And she indeed has a really poor memory, she even has dialogue if you deliver her the gatekeeper arm and the pigmy's skull after you steal them :/ --MC• S'drassa •T2M 00:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Joining

Wanted to say that I'd like to help out with this, unfortunately I have the PS3 version so in game testing/verifying only. — Unsigned comment by TheAlbinoOrc (talk • contribs) on 8 January 2010

Great! It's always good to have more helping memebers. Feel free to add your name to the list, and feel free to ask any questions you have to me or any of the other members in case you have any doubt. --MC• S'drassa •T2M 23:34, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Hey there! As S'drassa said, our current in-gamers are S'drassa himself, Krusty and Wolok gro-Barok, so they should be able to answer any doubts about in-game research you may have. If you want to start checking schedules, inventories etc. try looking at these categories. Good luck! --SerCenKing Talk 11:09, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I also would like to join the project, but unfortunately I can't write dialogues or rumors, but I can do all other things. May I?.. Nemmchen 23:12, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Of course! It's great to have new members! It's fine if you can't do certain bits; trust me there's always plenty to do! I see you've added a few schedules already, and they look good. I went through them just to improve the flow of the writing - see my changes to get an idea of the structure we give schedules. Great work so far! --SerCenKing Talk 15:34, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

hi! i also want to join but i can pretty much only do uniqe dialouge because i got a 360 and yeah(i have pretty good spelling but on the more hard words i will probly mess up a few times:(.)--GUM!!! 23:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Welcome! If you're interested in checking stuff, take a look at these categories for stuff to do. 360 users can do almost everything except factions and spells so I'm sure you'll find plenty to do. If you have questions about in-game checking try asking Krusty, our in-game wizard :P All the best! --SerCenKing Talk 08:28, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

k so i just put my name on the list?--GUM!!! 12:11, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes. rpeh •T•C•E• 13:10, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Is it possible for me to add my name to the list. I have helped on two NPC's and now i have re-brought oblivion for my xbox, i can perhaps verify already written stuff, add inventories to NPC's ect. Also dibs on writing inventory for Count Regulus Terentius. - Emoboy64 23:47, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Sure! Just add your name to the list and feel more than free to ask if you have any questions about the project. --Krusty 05:49, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Rumors

Are you supposed to add rumors about someone to their page or rumors that they say ?--TheAlbinoOrc 23:34, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The "rumors" section of the project consists in adding what other people say about someone, for example with City-Swimmer, the rumors are "Keep an eye on City-Swimmer when she's not in the canal... She's a sly one" and "I understand she's quite sneaky." --MC• S'drassa •T2M 23:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the info.--TheAlbinoOrc 23:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Daedric Worshipers

As some of you might have noticed, I have been adding some ONPCRP-related info to a few of the various worshipers found at the Daedric Shrines – but no schedules. Why? Because the “real” worshipers (not the ones you’ll have to talk to in order to approach the shrines) have overly complicated AI packages (as many as 13, according to rpeh’s investigation a few months back – see Angalsama for a good example), making it impossible to write from the game. Nevertheless, each worshiper has about three specific moves he/she does, and not much else. It indicates, that Bethesda might have had bigger plans with the worshipers, but decided to skip it altogether.

So my suggestion is that we write some kind of standard “note” to put at the bottom of each page explaining the exact number of packages (also the number of packages that activates when the player isn’t even around) – and provide the usual schedule with a short description of the moves the worshiper does. Mostly because, the NPC will ALWAYS be near the shrine, doing some weird move. And because, in my opinion at least, we don’t need an overly complicated schedule describing all the percentages of chances there are that he/she will sit on the bench instead of kneeling and so on. I can try to write the note, if we reach consensus on this (and all it would take from the CS people is to count a number of packages and add them to the note, then copy/paste to the page) – so: what do you think? Yay or nay? -- Krusty 10:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Changes Made by Official Plug-ins

A big discussion over on Krusty's talk page has had some irritating consequences. It turns out that the Fighter's Stronghold (Battlehorn Castle) plug-in changes the times at which some NPCs offer services. Luckily, it's not quite as bad as it could be. All that changes is that on five AI packages, the "Offers Services" flag is ticked where previously it wasn't.

The five packages are:

  • aaaDefaultExploreEditorLoc768 - NPC wanders around his or her starting location. This is used as a "default" that gets executed when an NPC has no other action to perform. Note that this means this package may never be used by a given NPC.
  • aaaEat8x2 - NPC eats food near his or her starting location from 8am for 2 hours, with weapons unequipped.
  • aaaEat12x2 - NPC eats food near his or her starting location from noon for 2 hours.
  • aaaEat20x2 - NPC eats food near his or her starting location from 8pm for 2 hours, with weapons unequipped.
  • aaaSleep0x6 - NPC sleeps near his or her starting location from midnight for 6 hours.

The 66 NPCs who offer services and are affected are as follows:

All of these WILL offer services if Fighters Stronghold is installed where they wouldn't before. My suggestion is that we use the non-FS for the NPCs' infoboxes and text then add a standard note for the exceptions. Perhaps we could use a template with five params given that there are only five problem schedules?

Obviously, we're going to need to revisit each of these NPCs and make sure that we've done the schedule the right way round.

I'll try to check the other plug-ins to make sure there are no similar issues. rpeh •T•C•E• 13:55, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

What a weird discovery - but an important one. As a PS3 user, I can't really be helpful with this, but I do have a suggestion about how to handle it in the layout of the pages. Would it be possible to add an extra "box" to the service info box - and in that box, list the times caused by the plugin? Nevertheless, I am 99% certain that the services written for the ONPCRP are correct ones - without the plug-in - but I will go through the list once again to make sure. That way, we will get the "vanilla" times right on all infected pages. --Krusty 14:11, 28 Jan
Bloody Bethesda! I think it's indeed best to keep the vanilla schedule descriptions, and simply note the difference caused by the plug-in. Depending on the amount of NPCs truly affected, we should consider the template. Let's see how many notes need to be added first. --Timenn-<talk> 14:25, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Bloody Bethesda indeed. I've checked the other plugins and only Spell Tomes and KotN affect any other schedules. Spell Tomes is an odd one... the work outside if it's not raining packages for Gaston Surilie and Ambroise Canne have been redefined but seem to have been redefined to exactly what they already were. In other words... there's no actual change. KotN changes quite a few packages. I haven't looked at any of these yet so I don't know exactly what the differences are, but we'll need to bear them in mind when writing the relevant schedules:
  • Dar Jee uses LeyawiinDailyWorshipDarJee14x4Sunday
  • Didier Aumilie uses AnvilDailyWorshipDidierAumelie16x4 and AnvilDailyWorshipEveningUseAltar2
  • Hans Black-Nail uses BravilDailyWorshipHansBlackNail8x2 and BravilDailyWorshipMorningUseAltarTiberSeptim
  • Hasathil uses AnvilDailyWorshipHasathil8x4, AnvilDailyWorshipMorningUseAltar2 and AnvilDailyWorshipUlfgarOneEye8x4
  • Marz uses BravilDailyWorshipEveningUseAltarMara, BravilDailyWorshipMarz16x4, BravilDailyWorshipMarz8x4 and BravilDailyWorshipMorningUseAltarMara
  • Olava the Fair uses BravilDailyWorshipEveningUseAltarAkatosh, BravilDailyWorshipMorningUseAltarAkatosh, BravilDailyWorshipOlavaTheFair16x4 and BravilDailyWorshipOlavaTheFair8x4
  • On-Staya Sundew uses LeyawiinDailyWorshipMorningUseAltarZenthar and LeyawiinDailyWorshipOnStayaSundew8x2
  • Shamada uses LeyawiinDailyWorshipMorningUseAltarArkay and LeyawiinDailyWorshipShamada12x2
  • Silana Blandia uses LeyawiinChapelUndercroftExplore, LeyawiinDailyWorshipMorningUseAltarStendarr and LeyawiinDailyWorshipOnStayaSundew8x2
  • Ulfgar Fog-Eye uses AnvilDailyWorshipUlfgarOneEye8x4
  • Uravasa Othrelas uses BravilDailyWorship8x4
  • Varon Vamori uses BravilDailyWorshipEveningUseAltarDibella and BravilDailyWorshipVaronVamori8x2
rpeh •T•C•E• 15:05, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Wow, I had no idea that it would be such a big... problem? Anyway, I've just checked it by deleting the plug-in and yes, this time neither Marz or Tun-Zeeus would accept to offer services after the indicated times. I think that (as everyone has already said) a note would be the most appropriate here, instead of a new box indicating their new schedule services, since they actually don't change their schedule at all (at leat most of them don't); the only difference is that they will offer services when they wouldn't before. --S'drassa •T2M 22:47, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

@*~/#$&^£!!!!! I feel like tracking down the Beth dev who is responsible for this and... let's just leave it there... In any case, I don't have any plug-ins installed so all the schedules/services on my part are correct "vanilla-wise"; of course this means that someone that was got the plug-ins needs to check them again :( --SerCenKing Talk 08:58, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Well, I checked all the (written) service providers affected by Fighters Stronghold once again, and I can vouch for each and every one of them - with the exception of the newly written pages for Hil the Tall and Jantus Brolus - so the vanilla times written for the ONPCRP are all correct. But let's put all the above mentioned NPCs on hold until we find a solution - hopefully it is not as bad or time-consuming as we think. --Krusty 09:16, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
GK asked a good question on IRC, which was "Do the mods change anything else to do with the project?"
I think the way I checked the mods means that none of them change personal inventory and spells. The only thing that I think is likely to have changed is house contents. I know that the Arcane University gets a copy of the new books in KotN (that was one of my earliest edits) so it's possible that other houses get some too. I thought this was impossible at first but it's actually quite easy. The following cells change with KotN (excluding test cells). Cells marked with a "*" change in unimportant, even non-existent ways:
  • AnvilChapelHall
  • AnvilChapelofDibella
  • BravilChapelGreatHall
  • BravilChapelofMara
  • BrumaChapelHall
  • CheydinhalAbandonedHouse *
  • CheydinhalAbandonedHouseBasement *
  • CheydinhalChapelHall
  • CheydinhalChapelOfArkay
  • ChorrolChapelHall
  • ChorrolChapelOfStendarr
  • ICArcaneUniversityMysticArchivesUpstairs
  • LeyawiinChapelHall
  • LeyawiinChapelOfZenithar
  • LeyawiinChapelUndercroft
  • LeyawiinSouthernBooks
  • Nagastani *
  • SkingradChapelHall
  • UnderpallCave
  • UnderpallCave02
  • UnderpallCave03
  • UnderpallCave04
  • UnderpallCave05
I'll check the other mods to make sure nothing happens there. rpeh •T•C•E• 09:42, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I've struck out the places listed above as changed that have been noted on the wiki. The Cheydinhal Abandoned House isn't struck-out because it doesn't have an article yet; also, the Nagastani change is too minuscule to mention as it only changes a single gate, and not in any discernible way. --GKtalk2me 13:26, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

The changes to the SanctuaryAbandoned House seem to be similarly minor. The only things changed are a door in each cell, and I certainly can't spot what's different. rpeh •T•C•E• 21:00, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
I went ahead and struck out the Abandoned House since there are no changes that would need to be documented even when the article is written. Were there any changes in places with the other plug-ins? --GKtalk2me 00:08, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, I'd forgotten about this.
Horse armor changes the Chestnut Handy Stables (irrelevantly), Cursed Mine Lower Galleries (noted on the horse armor page as a bug), and Chorrol Stables exterior (but the horse it adds is disabled so it doesn't matter).
Thieves Den changes the Sea Tub Clarabella (already noted), adds a secret passage from the Anvil Castle Dining Room/Servants Quarters to Smugglers' Cave, makes various other changes to Smugglers' Cave (noted), and various unimportant changes to the exterior of Anvil Castle and around Anvil Bay.
Actually, the secret passage exists without the Thieves Den, the content just changes the destination and adds the key for the door. Both ends exist in the vanilla game, but require the console to open the door.Triaxx2 00:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
The Orrery obviously changes the door in the Arch Mage's Lobby and adds the bandit carriers to the camps, but otherwise changes nothing.
Mehrunes Razor makes some change to Ungolim's house in Bravil, but I can't tell what so it really can't be that important. It also makes an irrelevant change to a brazier in Fort Ash.
Frostcrag Spire changes all the guildhalls, but only by adding a telepad for the teleporter outside the spire. It also changes the Mystic Emporium, but we knew that.
Vile Lair changes the Wawmet Inn (obviously), changes one of the cage doors in Pothole Caverns (can't tell how), but that's about it.
Fighter's Stronghold changes the Merchants' Inn (also obviously) and the Mystic Emporium (the known bug). I also just discovered that the cell where Battlehorn Castle is located is called "SpyRockExterior". Irrelevant but interesting.
Spell Tomes just adds the conjurer to Fort Cedrian Exterior.
So the simple answer is "No - nothing else important is changed that we don't already know about". rpeh •T•C•E• 08:37, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

(u/d) Some research reaches me by email: "Under KotN, all Anvil and Bravil DailyWorship schedules are disabled when the relevant temples are desecrated. Similarly, the LeyawiinDailyWorship schedules are disabled when the quest stage for ND04 (The Path of Righteousness) is between 100 and 199. LeyawiinChapelUndercroftExplore - Disabled when ND04 is running, regardless of stage.

"I think all of these changes are expected and already documented.

"Also, I didn't double-check who these schedules belong to; I'll trust your research on that." rpeh •T•C•E• 11:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. It seems the Spell Tomes changes to Gaston Surilie and Ambroise Canne were caused by me accidentally hitting save while messing about. It doesn't seem those changes appear in the standard version. rpeh •T•C•E• 14:05, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I think we should pick up this discussion once again. How de we handle this on the NPC pages? Way up above, I made a suggestion about a possible solution (making an extra "box" in the NPC summary, giving it the Fighters Stronghold-plugin logo and provide the times added by the plug-in - and come to think about it, mention it in a: the intro or b: in our usual limited service info at the end of each schedule). What do you guys/girls think? The problem will not just go away and we might as well get busy. --Krusty 08:56, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Sounds like a good idea to me. I'm a bit worried that the main infobox will start to get a bit cluttered but luckily there aren't too many cases where this happens, so the concern isn't a big one. rpeh •T•C•E• 13:38, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Okay, let's try it at least. Maybe you could find the time to make a simple example in a Sandbox - just the NPC summary with the vanilla service times, the FS-logo and a text called 24hrs/day or something? In the meantime, I'll make it a personal project to write and check service info for all the "infested" NPCs - from the vanilla version of the game, just to get those into place as quickly as possible. I plan to invest in an Xbox360 in the near future anyway (to play MW), so maybe I'll just get the OB GotY and do all the additional service info myself. :) --Krusty 16:26, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Will do. It won't be for a couple of days but I'll try to put something together when I'm home. rpeh •T•C•E• 16:41, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
I just tried to write a Knights of the Nine-related schedule exception here and it seems okay to me. Is this the way to go or can we come up with something even more clever? --Krusty 11:04, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Disabled NPCs subpage

I just created a subpage with a complete list of all NPCs that start out disabled in Oblivion. The list was originally made by Nephele and contains extremely helpful reading for those of you in-gamers working on the ONPCRP. The page can be found HERE. Enjoy! --Krusty 20:00, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

At some point, if I remember, I'll try to get a list of all NPCs that get disabled later in the game. As Nephele pointed out on your talk page, it can't be done automatically, but I've got a file containing all the scripts and can check them fairly quickly. It's a very dull task though so I can't promise it'll be done soon. rpeh •T•C•E• 20:51, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd Like To Help Too!

Hi! I'd like to help out with this too. I've already performed several edits to Oblivion:Belisarius Arius along with Jayden Matthews, so yeah, if you want anything that needs fixing or doing then tell me and I'll be right on it. --ModderElGrande 12:53, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

A thought on schedules

While skimming the various NPC's, I thought perhaps a table could be used for the day to day schedules, and keep the special schedules separate, so there's no need to wade through several days of routine before finding the important information. For example, Telaendril is easier to eliminate on the road to Leyawiin, simply by following her and letting a random monster do her in. But one would have to wade through the other information to find that out.Triaxx2 00:15, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, I really don't like the idea of a table. What we're trying to do is produce flowing text articles that detail people. Putting their info in a table makes the look no better than Creatures. The best thing to do IMO is to separate normal and "special" schedules (as I've just done here) --SerCenKing Talk 08:48, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
While I agree that some schedules can be overly complicated (because of the programming), I see no reason why we should make tables. We are trying to build up personalized articles for the NPCs and I don't think it hurts people to read a bit of text. That being said, we should aim for schedules that are easy to look at (with mentioning of important times clearly visible) - and if people have to read a schedule twice to make out where an NPC is at a given time - then the schedule should be reconsidered - and rewritten. A few examples exist - but we will get to that during the final preview-phase. --Krusty 09:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Creatures would look much better if each creature were on it's own page. The tables would not be so crowded. Personally, I don't think it looks too bad: here
Some people argued for tables back when this was first discussed. The trouble is that there are a lot of NPC schedules that aren't simple enough to go into a table, as I'm sure Krusty and SerCenKing can testify! Many NPCs have different schedules if it's raining, if other NPCs are alive or dead, at different stages of various quests, on different days of the week, and so on. There are a lot of such NPCs and a lot of different criteria that can affect their schedule.
It's true that the simple schedules could go in a table, but I'd rather see everything done in the same way, which means either all of them go in tables or none of them. Since some of them really can't be put into tables, none of them can. rpeh •T•C•E• 16:29, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Light the Dragonfires?!?

Do we really need to mention this "exception" on each and every IC NPC page? I mean, during that quest, the Imperial City is a completely different cell (the Temple District being the only available area) and even if the player wanted to leave the district to meet up with, say, Samuel Bantien, the other areas of the city is off limits and impossible to access. There is no "martial law" or anything - the rest of the city simply does not exist. I think this should be discussed because it kind of ruins the schedules and is not really necessary. I know we have included this weird info on a lot of pages but I am more than willing to spend an hour removing it again. --Krusty 18:35, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

I suppose people might have other things on their minds... I just don't like excluding information.
Okay, fair enough. Although it might still be worth including on those NPCs who have their homes in the Temple District. rpeh •T•C•E• 18:45, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Cool with me - I agree it doesn't sound right and that you're usually trying to save the world instead of getting security training from Bantien :P Furthermore, it's practically impossible to check in-game. I think rpeh's right about the Temple people though; they should have the note. --SerCenKing Talk 18:48, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
The Temple District people are very relevant (like this guy) - I just think it seems weird to mention they are "confined to their homes" when, in fact, they are disabled during the quest. I remember trying to check a few of them back in the day - and it IS impossible to leave the District. --Krusty 18:53, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
i don't think they are 'disabled' in a sense, J'mhad and Bantien are going about thier daily lives in different cells tham your's. J'mhad could be in the temple at the same time you are watching Dagon get killed, but in a different temple.--Arch-Mage MattTalk 19:18, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
No, that's not what happens. They aren't moved to a different cell, and they aren't disabled. From stage 20 to 100 of Dragonfires IC NPCs will travel to an Editor Location inside their houses and stay there until the quest is finished. You can verify this by using COC on PC I believe but I'm not sure if you can check in any way on console. As a side note, the reason why he say "Martial Law" is because that's the AI package name: "MQ16MartialLaw". --SerCenKing Talk 20:53, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
To be honest, I don't even know what happens during that quest - all I know is that Beth for some reason blocked all exits from the District, so in a way, they are disabled - or at least impossible to encounter. And that is why it feels a bit silly to mention it on the pages. Btw, SerC - nice work on the Bantien page! :) --Krusty 20:59, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Cheers! I completely agree with you Krusty; I was just explaining the whole thing so we removed any doubts/questions :) --SerCenKing Talk 21:01, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

\=>This is precisely what happens during the quest: You and the your companions enter the the Imperial City without any changes made to it yet. When you enter the Imperial Palace it starts to get interesting. Now the quest stages suggest that stuff is already happening at stages 14 through 20, but nothing rigorous will happen yet. As soon as stage 21 is triggered (which is triggered automatically after stage 20) a few things happen; the first Daedra attackers are spawned inside the Imperial Palace, and the door leading outside to the Green Emperor Way is replaced by a new door. This new door will lead to an alternate Green Emperor Way worldspace, which obviously looks almost exactly like the normal worldspace. One should know that this worldspace only looks the same, as it technically is an entirely different worldspace. All doors you can see leading to the other districts are duds, they simply do nothing (there is no destination set for them). The only working door here is the door leading to an alternate Temple District worldspace. That alternate Temple District again looks like the normal district, but is essentially different. All doors you see there are duds like they were in the alternate Green Emperor Way; they lead nowhere (thus they do nothing). What is important here is that all IC NPCs would never consider these two alternate worldspace as relevant, to them they are completely different. The martial law AI packages are actually unnecessary, as the NPCs would never be able to visit to the alternate worldspaces.

In that light I would think it's no longer necessary to mention what the NPCs are doing during the invasion, and simply explain their absence from the Temple District (for the ones who visit) during the invasion, a small note would suffice I think.

On a related note, the damaged Temple District you see after the invasion is the same as the original (they are the same worldspace). Various things are changed to it (e.g. the outside appearance of the temple and the leftovers from the battle), but all NPCs consider it to be the good old Temple District. --Timenn-<talk> 10:00, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that Timenn! Just a quick question: if NPCs previously went to pray in the Temple of the One; what happens after Light the Dragonfires? Do they just wander around the avatar or do they stand still (i.e. not knowing what to do). --SerCenKing Talk 10:59, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I haven't checked the Temple itself yet, but I do know at least one alternate version exists. I'll check it out later. --Timenn-<talk> 08:10, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I seem to remember everybody returning to their normal routines after the crisis is over - even Tandilwe and J'mhad. And I don't even think the quest warrants a note on the NPC pages. That would be like making a special note saying "After Unfriendly Competition, Agarmir will no longer do his usual routines because he is dead". But the information should definitely go on the quest page. --Krusty 09:09, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Agreed on both. It's just extra clutter on the NPC pages. What bothered me was that it wasn't mentioned on the quest page, and still wasn't until I added it a few hours ago. — Unsigned comment by Aliana (talk • contribs) at 09:21 on 20 April 2010

Spells, the return

Spells

Moved from Oblivion talk:Arterion

It's not too late to go through and add "spells" and "spellsChecked" params to the template. Worth doing? –Rpeh•T•C•E• 04:09, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
I think it's a good idea. It's useful information and there's loads of NPCs that uses some kind of magic when you fight them. Only potential problem could be, that it's hard to identify exactly what kind of magic they use in-game (see this), making it pretty difficult to check.On the other hand, as soon as the pages hits the "needs preview"-page, it's going to be double-checked with the CS once again, so I think it's worth the extra effort. Krusty 04:30, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
Done. It'll take a while for it to be reflected onto every NPC's page though. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 04:50, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
Nice work. We better get that Adanrel page done in a hurry, though! I can see her tag is already updated. And it should be mentioned and explained here as well. Krusty 05:28, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
I'm also in favour for this, and I've been doing it for all of my Mages Guild NPCs. Only problem is that most have a set of leveled spells for their class, so writing all of the possible spells is just not going to be useful. I'm going to update the tags for the ones I've done so far. --SerCenKing Talk 05:41, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
More thoughts; As those Mages Guild members will be impossible to check in-game, I suggest that the in-gamer tries to engage in combat with each and every one of them, just to see, if there's a spell he/she uses more than others, and make the nessecary corrections, or a note on the talk page. In all cases, it should be double-checked in the CS.Krusty 06:06, 5 May 2009 (EDT)
There's not much point in that to be honest. The leveled lists are random, so if one spell gets used more than another it's just chance that is unlikely to be replicated elsewhere.
I also disagree that we can't list the spells that may be used. The phrase that has been used on most pages is too vague to be of very much help at all. I'd suggest a page called Oblivion:Leveled_Spell_Lists to expand the leveled lists for spells, then the phrase can be linked to provide at least some information.
I know that expanding leveled lists has been dismissed before, but I think it should be possible with spells as the number of lists is smaller than with items, and we already do it (briefly) on Oblivion:Bandit#Bandit Hedge Wizard Spells. –Rpeh•T•C•E• 02:43, 6 May 2009 (EDT)
I like the idea as well, I have been doing it in some pages (see here and here) and I think it would be worth it. If we do create a page would we link the spells by class? e.g. a set of leveled 'Alchemist/Mage' spells, which would then be linked on the page? --SerCenKing Talk 11:20, 6 May 2009 (EDT)

I extracted the above conversation from the archives for two reasons. Firstly because it just went moot at a certain point and secondly because I've actually made a start. I think rpeh made a good case for the page to exist and I believe it will save us much more time in the future. Also, it would be better to finish it off soon before the list of NPCs with "Spells Written" becomes astronomical. You may notice I'm only including class lists - ones for conjurer, necromancers etc. are already on their pages and I'll be adding to those still lacking (e.g. Oblivion:Blind Moth Priest) shortly. Any thoughts? --SerCenKing Talk 21:37, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

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