Skyrim talk:Alchemy

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Archive 1: Oct 2011 - Feb 2012
Archive 2: Feb 2012 - Nov 2012

Fortify restoration loop fixed?[edit]

As of patch 1.6 for Xbox 360, it appears the Fortify Restoration loop is fixed for me, won't stack my restoration effects. I have low alchemy and enchanting, so my gear starts at "8% Better potions", after taking fortify restoration potions, it bumps to "11%" and the rest of the potions I make and consume won't stack.

Anyone else having this problem? — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 05:59 on 9 June 2012

You did unequip and re-equip the items? The Silencer has spokenTalk 12:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
I seem to be having this issue as well on PC, and removing and re-equipping alchemy gear doesn't change it. I was figuring it was because of a lowish alchemy skill and none of the perks. Haven't done any actual testing, just what i've noticed from attempting it. Edit: Spent a few hours leveling alchemy and it seems to still work fine after about skill level 50 or so. Level up your alchemy and you should get it. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 23:59 on 9 June 2012
Can anyone confirm the loop working again without leveling up Alchemy? Or perhaps putting the first perk into Alchemy? — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 17:50 on 12 June 2012
It works for me still on the PC — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 02:42 on 21 June 2012
I was having trouble getting this to work - then all of a sudden, boom, it's working just fine. I think maybe there's a little more to this than just the methodology described. Hmm. EldarOfSuburbia 02:02, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
There is definitely more going on. I had this problem on xbox with the newest patch just like the original poster described. I attributed it to my gear and alchemy level being too low. But I run into the same problem on my Dark Elf character. I have a 20% helm and 15% necklace. I start the loop normally until I hit 118%. I drink the potion, it boosts my enchantments and I re-equip them. Then the next potion says 125%, but when I drink it, it returns me to the level BEFORE the 118%, AND the timer is lowered. Its as if the potion effect is being returned to an older state. I'm not sure what to make of it at all but this happened twice now. The first time was with slightly lower values (something like 104%, 108%, 115%). I've done the exploit successfully on a different character so I THINK it isn't a problem with execution. ( 22:30, 7 July 2012 (UTC))
Sounds like the older potions are simply wearing off. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 12:40 on 14 August 2012

() I'm sure does NOT work on the PC I used the exploit with my last character and it will not work with my new one. It's a problem, because this new character was designed around optimizing alchemy/enchanting/smithing before anything else, and now I'm level 30 with no combat skills! Yikes! --Bheimbaugh 02:47, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I can confirm that this doesn't work on the latest patch. the fortify restoration potion capped at 255% increase — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 05:13 on 10 September 2012‎
Still working on XBox. No cap. Used it to create a Fortify Restoration 22978%, and a Fortify Enchanting 5587%. Make sure the potions you are trying to stack don't have the same "base magnitude", or the stacking effect is ignored. --Wyrmblight (talk) 22:44, 13 December 2012 (GMT)
Can you tell me the method? Xbox doesn't seem to go above 60% for me. Sorta starts declining once I hit that. 03:32, 22 December 2012 (GMT)
Nevermind, you need to have a decent amount of alchemy/perks. Round about 60 alchemy I started seeing results... 01:48, 23 December 2012 (GMT)
I know this is a bit old, but I have no problem getting the loop going as long as I have the benefactor perk and at least 3 pieces of fortify alchemy gear on, even at starting it at 36 alchemy. And I am on 360, up to the most recent update with all dlc installed. Rouxez (talk) 18:37, 22 April 2013 (GMT)

Salmon Roe + Histcarp[edit]

I've had a tip from a user saying that combining Salmon Roe + Histcarp is much more powerful than Giant's toe + Blue Mountain Flower + Blue Butterfly Wing. Can somebody check this out? Thanks! eshetalk 13:59, 31 October 2012 (GMT)

+jazbay grape. Potion worth over 4k! Only with hearthfire expansion — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 20:56 on 21 November 2012
Actually, the most expensive potion possible is
salmon roe + nordic barnacle + garlic
close 2nd place: (all the same value)
salmon roe + hiscarp + dwarven oil
salmon roe + hiscarp + fire salts
salmon roe + hiscarp + garlic
salmon roe + hiscarp + jazbay grapes
salmon roe + hiscarp + moon sugar
salmon roe + hiscarp + salt pile
salmon roe + hiscarp + taproot
close 3rd place:
salmon roe + chicken's egg + hawk's egg
salmon roe + chicken's egg + jazbay grapes
salmon roe + nordic barnacle + jazbay grapes
salmon roe + hawk's egg + jazbay grapes
salmon roe + nordic barnacle + emperor parasol moss
these potions will level up alchemy the fastest, but salmon roe is really hard to obtain in large quantities, even with the fishery — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 10:47 on 31 December 2012‎

Does having more than two ingredients with the same effect create more powerful potions?[edit]

What it says in the header: if I have ingredients x, y, and z- all of which have "restore health," does combining three of them together make for a more powerful healing potion than just two of them?-- 15:35, 7 December 2012 (GMT)

No. The resulting potion would have the same restore health effect. The potion will only be different if the "third" ingredient has another matching effect with one of the first two ingredients. --JR (talk) 17:16, 7 December 2012 (GMT)
Disappointing, but thanks-- 14:21, 8 December 2012 (GMT)
There are some tricks to making more powerful potions. Right now, they are mixed in with tips on optimizing enchanting, which is located [[1]]. If you can't find it later, it may get moved back onto the main enchanting article as a hint or tip. Be careful about using all of these kinds of tips. If you use them "a little," they can give a satisfying boost. If you use them "a lot", they can make the game boring because everything is too easy. --JR (talk) 02:38, 9 December 2012 (GMT)

No XP for failed potions?[edit]

The "Gaining Skill XP" section indicates that the XP earned is based on the value of the potion. Does this then mean that you get 0 XP for failed potions? Because learning alchemy involves a lot of time spent trying combinations that often fail. Thanks. --Irrevenant (talk) 07:54, 27 December 2012 (GMT)

Discover all Ingredient Effects by Brewing 56 Potions[edit]

Can anyone confirm that this actually works? I thought I'd done all the potions, but I still have some ingredients with unknown effects. It's entirely possible I stuffed it up, but thought I should check. --Irrevenant (talk) 01:51, 31 December 2012 (GMT)

I've never tried checking it. It's not clear to me what some of the qualifications mean (this assumes that ...), and x and y are exluded, etc. I think the original discussion began here. If this can use an update for accuracy ("almost all ingredient effects") or otherwise improved, that would be great. --JR (talk) 07:21, 31 December 2012 (GMT)
The more I look at it, the more I think it was me - I think I lost track and missed a couple of potions. Also, like it says in the description, it assumes you've already tasted the ingredient to learn the first effect. --Irrevenant (talk) 09:45, 31 December 2012 (GMT)
I just ran through this list twice in the game, triple checked every ingredient before I made the potions and after I was completed with the list there are 38 ingredients that are missing 1 effect each. So while this list does discover a big chunk of effects it does not discover all effects for all ingredients. I had already discovered the 1st initial effects on all of the ingredients but that should not have made a difference with the outcome. If you would like I can put the list of ingredients here or I can PM someone with the list if you would prefer that. I did not want to bombard the discussion page with the list if it is something no one really cares to delve into. :)
--- Eglyntine -- "Fairness Is An Illusion We Do Not Provide Here..." - NLM - -- 11:23, 13 February 2013 (GMT)
I just tried brewing all these potions after carefully obtaining all the required ingredients and eating one of each. There are a number of effects missing. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 14:41 on 22 May 2013
A couple of points re this list, No.21 on the list suggests Daedra Heart, Rock Warbler Egg and Scaly Pholiota, assuming already eat one of each will only discover Weakness to Magic for the Rock Warbler Egg, as the Daedra Heart only has Restore Health in common with Rock warbler egg, but both of these are the 1st effect and so would already be known. Meaning that using only Rock Warbler Egg and Scaly Pholiota would produce the same result saving a Daedra Heart.
Also I know this isn't exactly part of this list but if you combine a Blue Butterfly Wing with Chaurus Hunter Antennae you will learn all four effect for both as they have the same. Biffa (talk) 17:15, 24 September 2013 (GMT)

I have a list of only 20 mixes that reveal all alchemy effects, without any tasting. Should I post it here? I may be using this info in a mod a some point, but I don't consider this a secret. James Wildspell (talk) 05:16, 11 April 2015 (GMT)

Giant's Toe Anomaly Calculator - Seems to be dead[edit]

The last calculator listed under the Online Resources seems to be dead or down and has been for awhile now. Is it alright to remove it? I put in a "Currently unavailable" note on the page, but I figured I'd ask before yanking it completely. --GrievousGrimalkin (talk) 17:06, 10 February 2013 (GMT)

I don't see any reason to just let it sit there, especially considering how many alternatives there are already listed on the page. I've removed the link. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 17:09, 10 February 2013 (GMT)


Do enemies use poisons against the player because if they dont isnt this perk pretty useless?-- 11:30, 9 April 2013 (GMT)

A number of enemies have some type of poison or another. Chaurus and spiders come to mind, and Falmer can have poisoned weapons. That said, I've always found poison effects to be almost negligible, so I would agree this is a fairly useless perk. Robin Hood  (talk) 20:46, 9 April 2013 (GMT)
At high difficulty levels with Dawnguard installed, the Chaurus Hunters seem to be able to do several hundred points per hit with poison. Without Dawnguard, they're much less deadly. However, spell absorption definitely works on poison damage - I've seen the absorption swirly from chaurus attacks - and I think magic resistance does as well, so it's really only a perk for people without high Alteration and/or MR enchantments. --Morrolan (talk) 01:15, 19 September 2013 (GMT)

Ravage vs. Damage[edit]

I'm surprised that this article mentions nothing about the fact that there are two seemingly identical effects: Ravage stat and Damage stat. Does anyone know if there is some difference between the two? All I've found is that Ravage effects seem to be rarer, but in comparison, their magnitude appears about the same as similar Damage effects. The game's description, "concentrated poison damages stat by x points," couldn't be more obscure. If you ask me, the only real point of this extra effect is so that you can essentially make a poison doubly powerful, by giving it Damage Health and Ravage Health. Am I correct or am I missing something? — Unsigned comment by Tea ache sea (talkcontribs) at 10:26 on 22 April 2013

If you look at Alchemy Effects, you can kind of see the difference. The "Damage" effects do a small amount of damage instantly (base 2-3 points over 0 or 1 seconds, which is basically the same thing), while the "Ravage" effects do a small amount of damage over several seconds (base 2 points per second for 10 seconds, in all cases). So basically, they both do damage to whichever attribute you choose, but Ravage is the gift that keeps on least for a few seconds ;). eshetalk 15:36, 22 April 2013 (GMT)
Ravage affects maximum health/magicka/stamina, like the Drain effects in Oblivion. Damage affects only current health/magicka/stamina. What I don't remember is if Ravage also affects current, or only maximum. Robin Hood  (talk) 07:57, 23 April 2013 (GMT)
There's actually three - "Lingering Damage" effects also exist, which are different from straight "Damage" effects. (You can theoretically create a poison with all 3, just not sure if there are ingredients in the base game or official expansions that make that possible with just 3 ingredients.) I think Lingering Damage does what Eshe was referring to, with the damage drawn out over time rather than instant. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 15:36, 23 April 2013 (GMT)
By using coexisting beneficial effects to create potions with Ravage Health/Stamina/Magicka and testing them on myself (on Xbox 360), it seems that Ravage Stamina and Ravage Magicka do exactly the same as the lingering effects (that is, a DoT for 10 seconds) while Ravage Health reduces maximum Health for 10 seconds. 16:59, 7 August 2013 (GMT)

Wish to add a new resource:[edit]

I've been using it for quite a while, very practical, plain, very clear and concise. If I have permission, or someone else wishes to add it, I think others would benefit from it as well :) ~ Featherpaw (talk) 04:29, 28 April 2013 (GMT)

The Skyrim Alchemist's Handbook: This is a new one. Includes ingredients for all DLC. Full disclosure, I built it (feedback is welcome)--Jgostling (talk) 17:48, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Contradiction re. Purity perk?[edit]

Currently the wiki says:

‡ Although the in-game perk tree indicates that the prerequisite perk for Purity is Snakeblood, in fact the only required perk is Experimenter.
This issue has been addressed by version of the Official Skyrim Patch; the Purity perk no longer requires the Experimenter perk.

Um... is it me, or is there something wrong with this statement? I'm wondering if the second line is supposed to say "the Purity perk no longer requires the Snakeblood perk."

Does Purity require Snakeblood (as suggested by the perk tree) or Experimenter (as suggested by the original text)? Baratron (talk) 04:38, 30 April 2013 (GMT)

It wasn't actually a contradiction per se, you just had to twist your brain into knots to understand it. It does indeed no longer require the Experimenter perk, as stated, but what was meant was that it requires Snakeblood instead, as the perk tree graphic would suggest. Robin Hood  (talk) 05:41, 30 April 2013 (GMT)

Legendary Alchemy Skill[edit]

I'm not sure if this is supposed to be happening or not, but something screwy is going on with my current game. I've been repeatedly reseting my Alchemy skill using the legendary function to pick up extra perk points (I've enchanted a ring for alchemy that is makes potions millions of times stronger, so I can go from 15 to 100 in one shot). But now that I'm attempting to create new potions, they are much more powerful than they should be. For example, with Alchemy skill at 100 and all perks selected, no enchanted equipment, combining a hagraven claw and snowberries creates a fortify enchanting potion that says for 30 seconds, items are enchanted 320% stronger. From previous experience I know that's way stronger than it should be. Did something get stuck? Are my repeated gains in Alchemy skill somehow cumulative?? Either my current game is bugged somehow or I'm not understanding how the legendary function works. Could someone shed some light on that? Thanks.

KolokoL (talk) 02:04, 9 August 2013 (GMT)

So I ran it one more time for kicks and giggles (put on ridiculous ring, reset skill to 15, make potion that shoots me to 100), and now it says the same potion is 322% stronger. It seems as if my gains are it supposed to be this way? KolokoL (talk) 02:10, 9 August 2013 (GMT)

I have almost the opposite problem. After several rounds of dropping Alchemy back to 15 (my character's starting level) Leveling up Alchemy Skill has no effect on potion strength or value. In fact, I have several Apparel items enchanted at about 1200% and wearing 1, 2, or 3 of them also doesn't change either value or magnitude of potions/poisons! Oddly enough, I also have an item enchanted to something like 60,000% Alchemy and that seems to least potions mixed wearing it have enormously high values and magnitudes/durations/levels. Going to Skill Level 100 and making it Legendary again doesn't fix it. Donning and Doffing items doesn't fix it. Quitting game and reloading it doesn't fix it. Getting a blessing doesn't fix it. Game seems permanently corrupted. Shucks. 09:36, 14 November 2019 (GMT)

External Resource: AlcheMoney Improvements[edit]

I recently downloaded AlcheMoney, one of the External Resources on this page and was disappointed to see it did not include the ingredients added by DLC such as Dragonborn. Due to my programming experience, I altered it to include them, making no further alterations - in effect, the copy I have now includes every official addon ingredient in addition to every feature it had previously. As I do not want people who may not know how to alter it to be left out, I would like to know if there would be any possible way to include the .zip file I recompressed it to on this site - any way I might be able to upload it so people could download it while a link remains to the original site for people who do not have the DLC. Preferably uploaded to this site instead of an alternate file hosting site, as many people are (justifiably) wary of using such sites. For clarification purposes: the link would remain untouched - there would simply be an additional link next to it for download of the Dragonborn version. -ChaoticAscension (talk) 09:41, 30 August 2013 (GMT)

56 mixtures to learn all base effects is partially incorrect.[edit]

Discussion moved from User talk:Daveh

I just went through all 56 potions and while it does learn most of the effects, it misses at least 33. It really isn't close to being fully accurate. It is a step in the right direction but maybe some alchemy guru might like to tackle that article. Ingredients not completely learned through the 56 potions:

Bee, Briar Heart, Chaurus Egg, Creep Cluster, Daedra Heart, Dragon Tongue, Elves Ear, Fire Salt, Frost Mirriam, Frost Salt, Giant Lichen, Grass Pod, Hawk Beak, Hawk Feathers, Ice Wraith Teeth, Juniper Berries, Lavender, Moon Sugar, Orange Dartwing, Pine Thrush, Powder Mammoth, Sabre Cat Tooth, Scaly Pholiota, Slaughterfish Egg, Slaughterfish Scales, Small Antler, Small Pearl, Spider Egg, Swamp Fungal Pod, Torchbug Thorax, Tundra Cotton, and Vampire Dust.

Note: This may not be all that was missed either as I ate most ingredients before testing, so I would miss any first ingredient. — Unsigned comment by Crpgnut (talkcontribs) on 7:02, 22 December 2013

After carefully reading the description, it is obvious that the list was never meant to reveal all effects for all ingredients, only all the possible effects. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:26, 22 December 2013 (GMT)

Poisoning Weapons[edit]

Moved to UESPWiki:Community Portal#Poisoning Weapons

I've been looking and looking, but I cannot find any information regarding poisoning weapons. I've looked under multiple sections (Poison Damage, Weapons, Alchemy) and I cannot find any info. I do see in the Archives where it was brought up, but it doesn't appear any info was ever added. Is it possible that something could be added? Doesn't seem to me that this would be complete without at least a brief description of the game mechanic, or an in-depth one if warranted. --Draagyn (talk) 17:48, 31 January 2014 (GMT)

I had forgotten that I had asked the same question over a year ago with no response. This definitely needs to be added to an article or articles somewhere; this one, Skyrim:Potions, Skyrim:Damage, and/or Skyrim:Combat. If we can't get consensus here, it should be brought up on the Community Portal. --Xyzzy Talk 05:35, 1 February 2014 (GMT)
So, it appears that this is going to need to be solved by the route of using the Community Portal. Forgive me, as I am new here, but I'm utterly confused as to how to take that next step. --Draagyn (talk) 22:14, 17 February 2014 (GMT)
You merely post it on the Community Portal as a new topic, same as any talk page. I'll copy this conversation myself, since I want to reply to it as well. :) -damon  talkcontribs 22:24, 17 February 2014 (GMT)
Awesome. Thanks for the help. --Draagyn (talk) 16:31, 18 February 2014 (GMT)

Restoration affect alchemy?[edit]

Does restoration affect alchemy? It would be cool— Unsigned comment by [[User:{{{2}}}|{{{2}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{2}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{2}}}|contribs]]) at 01:32 on 5 March 2015‎

I can't think of any reason why that would be the case. •WoahBro►talk 02:00, 5 March 2015 (GMT)


The page currently gives the following as part of the equation for alchemy: SkillMult: 1 + fAlchemySkillFactor x (Skill/100) - (Skill/100)

That would mean that your alchemy effectiveness decreases as your skill goes up. That can't possibly be right. I believe it should be simply: SkillMult: 1 + fAlchemySkillFactor x (Skill/100) 03:36, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

Looks okay to me, though I haven't compared it with actual results in-game. Try plugging some numbers into it:
Skill Formula Result
15 1 + 1.5 x 0.15 - 0.15 1.075
50 1 + 1.5 x 0.5 - 0.5 1.25
100 1 + 1.5 x 1 - 1 1.5
It goes up, as you would expect.
Although, now that you mention it, that simplifies to: 1 + (fAlchemySkillFactor - 1) x Skill / 100. Robin Hood  (talk) 20:19, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Well I have no idea what I was punching into my calculator wrong.Lofgren (talk) 03:28, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
If it's not an intelligent calculator, it may not have been aware of the order of operations. That could've caused some really bizarre results. Robin Hood  (talk) 08:33, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
The equation (as of Oct 12, 2019) is WRONG. It includes multipliers for both Benefactor and Poisoner perks but "result" (which isn't explained -- does that mean cost, value, magnitude, duration, or what?) is determined for each Effect SEPARATELY and afaik no effect is both beneficial and detrimental (poison). It is theoretically possible for a 3 ingredient potion to have 6 effects. In the base game I have verified that there are no such mixes. But I've found one 5 effect mix. There may be more.( 4 Effect mixes are trivial; Nirnroot & Crimson Nirnroot, for example). Value/Cost is roughly additive for individual effects (subject to special ingredient bonuses/penalties). Magnitude and Duration are calculated for each effect separately, I think. That means Value = Sum over all i of (value of effect i) where i may be 1 up to possibly 5. Duration and Magnitude equations would be logically split depending on effect's category (beneficial or poison) and the relevant perks included in those separate equations. And of course, if the purity perk is 'on', then only one category (depending on the category of the highest value effect) is allowed (the opposite category's effects are zeroed). If I recall (but I may be wrong here), value depends on Magnitude XOR Duration. Since Purity selects based on effect value, then something's gotta give (or the computer would be chasing its own tail). I suspect value for Purity is the base value of the effect, but could be wrong. 13:38, 12 October 2019 (GMT)

Request for new link in the Skyrim:Alchemy#Online_Resources section[edit]

I have recently updated my (very old) Skyrim Alchemy Generator. I have corrected all known issues and removed most of the ads. I have also updated the ingredients list to include all items from all DLCs. The web form asks for one or two desired effects, then gives a list of ingredients to achieve the desired effects. Please include a link in the Skyrim:Alchemy#Online_Resources section for my web tool:

Thanks. -jblev9796 — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 02:04 on 29 November 2016

Potion effects: &
No potions can be made with these desired effects.
Ingredient Name Effect 1 Effect 2 Effect 3 Effect 4 Required DLC
Not really helpfull... Am I missing something? -- SarthesArai Talk 16:54, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
It is a bit broken. From the link you need to go Home (to the index page) to get a list of effects. Once you select a main effect you cannot change it unless you go 'back' on the browser (or Submit and then Home); there really needs to be a clear way to clear the selection in order to reselect in case of mistakes. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:40, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Very high Alchemy skill prevents reverse pickpocket of various poisons[edit]

In the Dark Brotherhood quests, a meat vendor in Whiterun, Anoriath, has to be assassinated. It is suggested to reverse pickpocket him with Frenzy so that nearby NPCs kill him for you so that you do not generate hatred / aggression from his surviving brother Elrindir who owns the Drunken Huntsman Inn.

However, all potions I mix with all the Perk tree full for Alchemy skill have a gold value that is deemed too high so that it always gives me a 0% probability of reverse pickpocket success. Wearing no enchanted Alchemy gear, all my Frenzy potions are valued at about 2650 gold or so, that is well above the 2200 gold or so threshold for ANY reverse pickpocket success.

Two solutions seem to work.

One is to use Waking Dreams Black Book to go to clear perks from the Alchemy Skill Tree, then repopulate the perks to exclude making the strength increase perk stronger than just the one needed perk (of 40% potion strength increase) so that the remainder of the skill tree can be populated with their enabling perks.

The resulting reduction in Alchemy Skill of potion strength makes the potions created be valued at about 1250 gold and still have 90% chance of reverse pickpocket, but work on level 54 NPCs.

The second solution is to use a store bought Frenzy Poison that works on up to level 8 NPCs which still has the intended effect on the victim, Anoriath.

I did not try to stealth cast a paralyze spell on him from a very remote location, then run up to reverse pickpocket the more powerful version Frenzy potion poison. There would likely be too many witnesses to this skulduggery.

Case 2 difficulty in the thieves getting rid of bad attitude Etienne Rarnis via reverse pickpocket of very powerful Frenzy poison potion. The poison has the wrong effect so that no one in the Thieves Guild attacks / kills him.

From a sneak position at great distance within the Cistern I hit Etienne Rarnis with a paralyze spell, then sneak up to him as he comes out of it so that I can reverse pickpocket the 0% chance, powerful, valuable Frenzy potion that works on characters up to level 110. Rather than attack nearby Thieves Guild members with aggression, he runs away in isolation as though a Fear potion was administered. He is, however, steaming off Red fumes as though he was indeed poisoned.

With a vendor purchased Frenzy Poison, it is too weak and the screen caption says that Etienne Rarnis is too powerful to be affected by such a "weak" potion.

I was thinking of "attempting" to get rid of Maven Black-Briar by this method, but it seems not to work at all. 13:02, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Major improvement to list of potions that discover all alchemy effects[edit]

I have reduced the number of potions needed to discover all alchemy effects from 56 to 17. I have prioritized ingredients sold by apothecaries, similar to the original list. Attempts to reduce this number to 16 have been futile so far and I'm not sure it's actually possible. The next step will be to redo the list below that includes DLC ingredients. Currently, its purpose is inconsistent with the first list. The first list lets you discover all available effects, not the all 4 effects for each ingredient. The second list seems to do this though. I propose changing this DLC list to also be for unlocking all available effects, but using the DLC ingredients too. If it turns out that 17 is still the minimum, then this isn't necessary of course.

Here is the list of 17 potion combinations:

I will not make any changes yet, but I see no reason not to replace the old list with this one. —Dillonn241 (talk) 04:04, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I've changed your bullets to numbers again (using the built-in method) so it's easier to point to specific potions.
In potion 17, you don't need the Falmer Ear, since you already have all the same effects from potion 3. Also, this doesn't produce Lingering Damage Stamina anywhere. It looks like you try to in potion 14, but you might have entered one of the effects for Histcarp or Namira's Rot incorrectly (I double-checked mine, so I know it's not on my end). Apart from that, I can confirm that this list produces all the other effects except that one.
I've got an Excel sheet set up that'll double-check any future lists (give or take a little massaging in other programs), so feel free to throw another list at me whenever you figure out what happened here. Robin Hood  (talk) 05:20, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
As we discussed on Discord, I accidentally copied the effects for Hawk's Egg instead of Histcarp, which caused the errors you mentioned. Here is the new list now under consideration.
Any optimizations are welcome, but this is probably the best list possible. Only 50 ingredients. —Dillonn241 (talk) 05:59, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Agreed. I've been over the list and see no other optimizations that can be made. Feel free to replace the existing list. Robin Hood  (talk) 06:04, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
I have generated a list of potion combinations using DLC ingredients that unlocks all alchemy effects. It reduces the number from 17 to 16, which I think is significant enough for it to replace the current one (below the 17 potion list). Another list of potions that reveals all 4 effects of each ingredient is in the works. If I am successful in creating one, I think it would be a worthy addition to the page. The original intent of the list I replaced earlier seems to be just this, revealing the effects of all ingredients.
Unless there are any objections, I will replace the current list with this one and change the number of ingredients required. Also, if anyone knows how to make these lists collapsible, please edit my posts to shorten this section of the talk page. —Dillonn241 (talk) 07:51, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Agreed, the original intent was to get all four effects on all ingredients, the list provided just apparently failed to do so. Once I have a checker up and running, though, I'll put the 56-potion list, the 67-potion list (both here), and any you generate through it and see what's what. Robin Hood  (talk) 22:31, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
It happens that I've worked on that other problem: finding the smallest set of ingredients that could reveal all four effects of any given ingredient. I finished that work a while ago, but had been dragging my feet on posting it. (And also on making an account rather than IP-lurking.) I guess now's a good time to post my results.
The size of the smallest collection that can cover all 55 alchemy effects is 16 ingredients. Ideally it would be 14 (14 * 4 = 56), but it seems that all collections of that size overlap too much to cover all effects. Further, it seems that no 15-ingredient collections (even when including DLC ingredients) can cover all 55 effects either. Sixteen does it, finally, and with 1,715 sets to choose from. Of those, the following set seemed the most convenient in terms of ease of obtaining the ingredients, either from the world or from vendors.
So, to discover all four effects of any ingredient, you would need to brew a maximum of eight potions. Those potions would each be comprised of your test ingredient and two ingredients from this set. By the time you reached the end of the set, you would know all four effects of your test ingredient. However, if you needed to test one of the ingredients in that set, you would need another, independent set to test against. This next one contains one ingredient from Dragonborn, but... probably most people have that by now?
As a footnote, those 1,715 sets were discovered for unique ingredients. For these purposes, a unique ingredient means an ingredient with a set of effects that is unique when compared with the sets of effects of all other ingredients in the game. Most alchemy ingredients are unique as they are, but, for instance, Dwarven Oil and Taproot have identical sets of effects, and so are non-unique. For this search they were considered as a single, unique ingredient with the amalgamated name "Dwarven Oil / Taproot." Other non-unique ingredients were similarly combined. (In the alternate test set, above, Histcarp and Nordic Barnacle are unique ingredients, but both seemed equally easy-to-get sources of the Waterbreathing effect.)
Shmoot (talk) 22:58, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
It looks like the problem on that old Useful Potions talk page wasn't quite the same as the one I worked on. That one looks like it was trying to find the best way to identify all effects of every ingredient in the game all at once. My goal, on the other hand, was to find the smallest set of ingredients that could reveal all the effects of any single unknown ingredient. As such, my priority in choosing the "best" set from those 1,715 results was ease of acquisition. My thinking was that you could build up stocks of the ingredients in the test set and have them ready to test any new unknown ingredients you came across, one at a time.
Shmoot (talk) 00:43, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

() The way I see it, there are three different problems being addressed here with partly overlapping concepts:

  1. a combination of ingredients that, when tested against, are guaranteed to reveal all four effects on any given ingredient;
  2. a minimalist set of potion recipes to produce every available effect (ensuring you know at least one combo to get any effect you want); and
  3. a set of potion recipes that will reveal all four effects on all ingredients.

All of these are valuable in one way or another. Robin Hood  (talk) 01:04, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

If I may butt in, I think what most people want most is number 3, all effects on all ingredients. However in my latest game I found the previous list on the largely unusable because I had been finding effects as I went, including most 1st effects by eating them. Therefore I was looking to discover specific effects and ended up cross-referencing the individual ingredient's page with the ingredients page. A list for this problem should ideally have the discovered effects listed by each recipe.
A list for each effect would be better off listing the most powerful combinations for that effect rather than simply the quickest way to discover all of them. As players discovered ingredients effects increases a 'quick' list becomes redundant, and its arbitrary nature won't work for everyone. Though going by the effects page there are only six effects that have a stronger than normal combination. A less arbitrary list could be one that includes the ingredient with the most guaranteed samples for each effect.
Number 1 is a quirky one, but any list would be hampered in usefulness if it did not list the effects each ingredient covers. However, that presents its own problems such as being too confusing when trying to choose which two ingredients to combine. This method also presumably results in lots of wasted ingredients, especially if it takes all 8 combos (with blind-testing) to discover all 4 effects. Assuming 3 attempts per ingredient of which there are 90+ (with DLC minus the 16/17 combo ingredients), that's going on for 300 attempts. I think that in that case #3 is far more useful to our readers, but such a list would certainly be useful to those who might want to discover the effects themselves.
Any list should add the DLC ingredients as standard now, with a note below the table for any required alterations to recipes to meet the ambition of the table(s) it applies to. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 02:31, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

IP Reversions[edit]

To the IP who keeps reverting to the 56 potion list: the list has been confirmed by several people as not producing all four effects on all ingredients and being ridiculously large to simply produce one of every effect. If the goal was the latter, you would at most need 55 potions, since there are only 55 effects. What benefit do you see from the 56 potion list? Robin Hood  (talk) 23:51, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I think SilenceIsGolden addressed my concerns - the new smaller list did not preserve data for discovering effects of ingredients not in that list. The new 3 tables in the latest revision appears to preserve/improve all data, so I won't revert again. thanks for your work. 22:04, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

All Four Effects for All Potions[edit]

I've separated this out into its own topic so we don't confuse ourselves, given the varying topics of discussion here.

Following up on the all effects for all ingredients line of discussion, assuming I haven't made any mistakes in my checking program, I can confirm that neither of the recipe lists in this discussion works perfectly. The 67-potion list missed only three effects (Damage Magicka on Butterfly Wing, Damage Magicka Regen on Chicken's Egg, and Fortify Barter on Tundra Cotton), while the 56-potion list there and previously on the article page here missed more effects than I can readily list here (48 in total). Interestingly, the 56-potion one missed exactly one effect on any given ingredient, making me suspect a minor coding error in what might well have been an otherwise good algorithm for all we know.

Because this is now programmatic, I can happily check any additional recipe lists in a matter of seconds. Rather than cluttering up the discussion page here, however, I would suggest just posting any lists in a sandbox, which can then be altered at will. Robin Hood  (talk) 02:17, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Silencer that this kind of list is the most useful and should replace the one with 17 potions that I added. My list was a significant improvement to the 56 potion list, but the original intent was discovering effects for all ingredients, not just all effects. Robin Hood and I discussed the issue on Discord, and we think the best solution is three lists.
  1. Identify effects of all ingredients in base game and official add-ons
  2. Identify effects of all ingredients in base game
  3. Identify effects of all ingredients in official add-ons
The first is obviously the most useful for the majority of players. The second remains useful for players who either do not own the add-ons or do not want to travel to Solstheim or places like Ancestor's Glade to get all the effects for base game ingredients. The third is for people who are just starting the add-ons or followed the second list and now want the effects for everything. I have generated each of these and optimized their size as much as possible. The end result is 74 potions for number 1, 64 for 2, and 18 for 3. I can post them here if necessary, but it's probably better if I just add them to the page. —Dillonn241 (talk) 04:10, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
In the first table, Potions 5 (Ash Creep Cluster + Ice Wraith Teeth + Purple Mountain Flower) and 52 (Fly Amanita + Jazbay Grapes + Salt Pile) both seem to have a totally unnecessary ingredient (Purple Mountain Flower for #5, Fly Amanita for #52). I've gone through the full list and I think all effects are discovered on all ingredients with those two ingredients removed from those recipes, but would prefer confirmation from someone else before making changes to the list. - Dalimyr (talk) 13:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
I haven't checked this for everything, but in the second table at least, many of the quantities in the "list of needed ingredients" section are outright wrong. For example, it says only one Bear Claws is needed, but the recipes clearly list two. It says only two Bleeding Crowns are needed, but the recipes show three. Most egregiously, two recipes call for Moon Sugar, but that doesn't appear in the list of needed ingredients at all. The listings for three of each seems to be mostly correct though. Have I misunderstood the meaning of this section? In theory, the number of ingredients for which only one of each is needed should be small, because as far as I know, only a few can have all four of their effects revealed by mixing a single potion. This error isn't a big deal though, as most ingredients are abundant & cheap enough to have at least three on hand with no worries, and the actual required quantities for any ingredient can be revealed by Ctrl+F, so that the expensive/rare ingredients can be checked manually by any user in need. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 06:57 on 17 May 2018
I've updated all three lists with ones that have either fewer potions or lower overall value of ingredients (74 to 73 and 64 to 63). The first time I did these, I must have had a bug in the program I used to count. The counts seem to be accurate now, but it would help if someone double checked that these lists do in fact work and the counts match up. —Dillonn241 (talk) 05:17, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Aetherial Crown (Lover Stone) vs. Fortify Alchemy Headgear[edit]

For faster leveling the skill, I assume that wearing Aetherial Crown with Lover Stone ability stored is superior to wearing a Fortify Alchemy enchanted headgear. If you don´t mind skill leveling and want to go for the strongest potion, the headgear is better of course. Can anyone confirm this? 13:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)Shabdez

No*. You are removing 25% of the gold value in favour of 15% experience, and the experience is only a percentage of the remaining gold value, so it only works out at 11.25% of the former method making that potion 13.75% worse for leveling. I'm not sure of the exact formula for calculating xp but the gold value is directly proportional to experience (twice the value is twice the xp) so this seems right. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:17, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Did some calculating and if I didn´t make a mistake, my tests show, that the Fortify Alchemy Headgear is better. If it wasn´t for the (^1.1) terms in the gold_cost claculation, in most cases the floor() function would actually render the difference between 75 and 100 Fortify Alchemy meaningless, making the Crown superior as it´s effect is applied AFTER the floor() function. The (^1.1) counters this, so Fortify Alchemy Headgear gives better results. The differnce however is small. 16:20, 26 April 2017 (UTC)Shabdez

Potion or Poison?[edit]

What exactly determines whether you brew a potion or a poison when you have both positive and negative effects? Does the Purity perk change any potion recipes into poisons or vice-versa? -- 05:22, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Recommended addition to external resources: Powtions[edit]

Includes Creation Club ingredients.

Eve (talk) 17:51, 16 March 2021 (UTC)