User talk:Loganfsmith

Welcome!

Hello! Welcome to UESPWiki Loganfsmith. It's always good to have new members. If you would like to help improve any of our pages, you may want to take a look at the following links:

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Feel free to practice editing in the sandbox and don't hesitate to contact one of our mentors if you need any help. Have fun!--GUM!!! 20:12, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Salomon Geonette

Hey there! Recently, an "anon" added a whole lot of ONPCRP info to Salomon Geonette's page - and I noticed that you made an account and made a few corrections afterwards. I just want to ask you - was it you who added all the info? And I'm asking so we can get the ONPCRP tag updated accordingly. Thanks. --Krusty 09:02, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

ONPCRP tag

Hey Logan! Thanks for another solid contribution to the ONPCRP - great work! Still, it would be great if you could sign the special ONPCRP-tag on top of the page, so we can keep track of who wrote what. Take a look here for a good example (I signed you as the author of Salomon's page) and please add your "credits" to the new Algot page, just to try it out. Thanks - and keep up the good work! --Krusty 08:27, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Cookie!

You have been given a cookie! Your dedication and diligence to the wiki has not gone unnoticed. A user has seen the progress you've made, and has given you a cookie because of it. Good work! The user had the following to say: A cookie from a fellow project member impressed with your recent contributions to the ONPCRP - keep up the good work! --Krusty 12:04, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm still pretty new to all this, but it's pretty fun looking into how the game really works using the CS! Being able to help out this great website is just the icing on the cake! Loganfsmith 01:42, 24 April 2010 (EST)

Gold

Hey Loganfsmith! Long time no see; I was afraid you didn't like the cookie! ;)

Anyways, your recent edits claims, that certain NPCs owns a fixed amount of gold - you sure that isn't just what they start the game with? As far as I know, even 10 gold will level up with the player and turn into more gold in the pockets of the NPCs, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong! --Krusty 22:41, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

I checked this out in the CS, and it seems that the upper-class gold list will always return around 10-11 gold, ignoring the player's level. The assumption that the list contains a large amount of gold might jeopardise a lot of inventories, although I find it hard to believe that this went unnoticed through in-game checking. --Legoless 01:10, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Yup, that's what I saw in the CS, I sent a message to Krusty about it. An in game check of the gold levelling with the player *after* being generated in the inventory would be simple to conduct on the PC, I will try to get a chance to do that soon. --Loganfsmith 01:36, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Went into a game, killed a guy while at level 2. Reset to before this, changed my level to 20 using the console, left and re-entered the cell, killed the same guy. He had 9 gold both times. Repeated once more at level 80, no change. HOWEVER, the amount of gold he did have was 9, and this was Tertius Favonius, who according to the CS should have 4-6 gold. I'm thinking maybe he began with 4 or 5 gold and then when I levelled (legitimately) to level 2 he gained an extra 4 or 5 gold, for a total of 9. It's possible the process of levelling increases the amounts of gold the NPCs have, not the level the player is at. This would explain I always saw the same amount of gold. --Loganfsmith 04:05, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

UPDATE: I loaded an old save file where I am at level 20 legitimately and went and killed Tertius. He had 88 gold on him this time. It appears the amount of gold the NPC is added to every time the player levels. Mystery solved! --Loganfsmith 04:20, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Nice work! There IS something fishy with some NPCs (of course I can't remember any of the cases as I never thought it really important), so the amount of gold is worthwhile checking. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure we mention this info anywhere; maybe we should? --Krusty 08:36, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Yup, you're right - although I'm afraid this has been worked out before! The huge amount of gold sometimes found on the Camonna Tong Thugs caused people to wonder how it was happening, and it went from there. I'm not sure where that discussion is, though. rpeh •T•C•E• 09:03, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I believe the relevant discussion is here. mxk101^Talk 09:43, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Testimony of Annoyance

I noticed you checked the whole testimony deal in-game, so I thought I'd share this brief investigation with you. Fact is, both Ruslan and Luronk will head towards Itius at the same time - from then on forward, it's a race between the two; when one of them reaches the District where Itius patrols, the quest will update and they will both return to their usual routine, meaning the one who "lost the race" will just turn around and forget about it. Almost impossible to explain in a note, but I'd like to double check if you observed the same? --Krusty 21:09, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I did the same investigation in game, and I found that it isn't necessary for one of them to even get to the district Itius is in. They both try, though because Itius around this time moves from the Talos Plaza to the Elven Gardens they get a little confused with their trajectory. I have seen Ruslan make it to Talos Plaza, only to turn right around back into Green Emperor Way and attempt to get over to the Elven Gardens to meet Itius. They usually both get near to the Elven Gardens before stopping and turning around to go about their day. I don't think it's necessary for one of them to reach the same cell as Itius. Also, I took a look at the scripts in the CS, and there's a bug where when they stop looking for Itius, the quest thinks they found him. So it makes sense that they give up around 9am regardless of where they are. The package for them to find him is flagged with 'Must Complete', so I'm not sure why they don't complete it. I also only activated Luronk and followed him the next morning. He makes it to outside the Elven Gardens District before turning around, and Itius thinks Luronk has testified. The only weird thing is that they don't seem to give up right at 9am, but rather sometime between 9am and about 9:30. Whenever they give up though, the quest is updated. --Loganfsmith 13:01, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Wait! Just decided to look at the package again for clues, and it is flagged with both 'Must Complete' and 'Once per day'. The package is for 8am and lasts 1 hour. Could it be that in order to finish a 'must complete' package after its 'time limit' has expired, the NPC must re-select the package? Because if that is the case, then maybe the 'Once per Day' is blocking Ruslan and Luronk from reselecting it, and so they give up at 9am, or possibly a little thereafter because of the confusion? Of course, once they give up, Itius thinks they have testified and moves on Audens. --Loganfsmith 13:08, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Also what rpeh said about the package targeting Itius in the Watch Tower is not true. It simply points to his reference, which for programming purposes is in the Watch Tower. The NPCs will head to wherever he actually is, not where his reference begins the game. --Loganfsmith 13:12, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into it! I get what is going on (hard as it is), but I have absolutely no idea how to explain all of this in a bug note. Our current bug note on the subject is definitely lacking as of now - on the other hand, we may have to write something along the lines of "some impossible-to-meet-conditions-prevents-him-from-reaching-Itius", simply to avoid too many complex explanations and keep it brief. Itius' note is also clumsy (me at my current writers-block worst) and could use just a small bit of clarification, maybe even a link to whatever bug note we come up with for Ruslan and Luronk. If you can figure out how to write a new note, please do. Also, I can't access the UOP-page right now - what exactly does it "solve"? --Krusty 13:39, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Good point. Checked into the UOP thing, and they extended the length of Ruslan and Luronk's find package to 3 hours, which is definitely enough time for them to find Itius. So this way, they don't need to reevaluate their package, so they don't give up, so the quest doesn't advance until they actually testify. I will update all the bug notes in an hour or so! Mystery Solved, we're on a roll here Krusty! (Even if the gold one was solved already). --Loganfsmith 14:03, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Excellent! Looking forward to see these oddities solved and explained! Good work! --Krusty 14:35, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I'd rather you didn't describe my statements as "not true", especially when they're 100% accurate. Ruslan's package, for instance, is described by the CS as "Reference: 'ItiusHayn' in 'ICImperialLegionWatchTowerNW'-(00026D9C)". There have been several cases where NPCs won't try to find another NPC unless they're in the specified cell. rpeh •T•C•E• 16:14, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I refer you to the TESCSWiki page: "It is strongly recommended that you only use the Near Reference option. The In Cell option can produce unexpected behavior.". rpeh •T•C•E• 16:16, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I apologize if you took offence. Many references to the player involve 'in cell' references, and the player's reference is located in the Abandoned Mine. It would be interesting to find out why for some cases the 'in cell' target produces strange behaviour, but that's above my abilities to look at. --Loganfsmith 16:25, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Another quickie!

Just a heads up for an incredible amount of complex NPC work! Also, a small request - when a schedule has been marked as both written and checked on the OBNPCRP-tag, it basically means that it is finished. Because of the size (and time-span) of the project, several of the early NPC pages are bound to have a few mistakes. IF you make a change to the schedule - like you did here, please note it in the Edit Summary or, even better, on the talk page. Otherwise, we will end in a mess. Another thing worth knowing is about dialogue - if you see ANY pages written from "in-game" - you'll have to copy/paste the full dialogue from the CS. Why? Once again, because of the time-span of the project - back in the day, some noob and a few others actually thought they could write dialogue from the subtitles without mistakes. Wrong. Here is the most recent example; that would be me correcting my own crappy dialogue from back then. If you see somebody filling out the tag with (CS and in-game), you're 98% certain the dialogue is correct. That was not a quickie, but I hope it's okay with a bit of advice from a project dinosaur. Keep up the good work! --Krusty 20:23, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the constructive criticism! Feedback is always appreciated. I'll do my best to update the tags more thoroughly, and start CSing those in-game transcriptions. On a separate note, do you know if Manic is opposed to anyone altering Hannibal Traven? I messaged him about it but he hasn't responded. I noticed he has a strict no editing policy enforced on Raminus Polus, but I was thinking I would give Hannibal a shot if he's open. --Loganfsmith 21:03, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, I also sent him a message the other day, but no response. I can't find your message to him, so maybe try his talk page (unless I'm going blind and your message is there somewhere). From this message, it is obvious that he is experiencing some problems with a new computer, but try his talk and give him a few days. It looks like he's almost done with Raminus, so I don't really know what he is up to. If you need some VIP NPC work, there's plenty to do - although all of it involves serious checking both in-game and CS to bring the pages up to standard. Just let me know if you need some suggestions. I have them in spades! :) --Krusty 21:21, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Helvius Cecia

Ah well, another evening with too much time spent on a glitched NPC, in this case Helvius Cecia. Can you take a quick look in the CS and see what is going on with him between 3pm and 6pm? He tends to leave the house at random times, walks down the street, then returns home again. Seems like something is broken. Thanks! --Krusty 23:01, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Haha the reason I was looking at Hannibal and Raminus is because I'm basically going down the list of NPCs in the Imperial City. Anyways, about Helvius (assuming you mean outside of his related quests), I took a look and it turns out that he has a package from 3pm to 5pm that gives him a 50% chance of staying at home and a 50% chance of heading to Novaroma. So I guess what you're seeing is at 3pm he has a 50-50 chance of that, and at 4pm he does as well. At 5pm the package is over, leaving him with the default package of wandering at home. I'm guessing the random coming and going you're seeing is maybe him not being able to make it to Novaroma before evaluating again and choosing to go home. If he seems to be changing what he's doing at random times (not at 3pm, 4pm or 5pm), then perhaps there's an issue with him not being able to decide how to get to Novaroma? I think the 50% chance thing should solve most of it though. Hope that helps! --Loganfsmith 00:24, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Brilliant! I more or less figured it to be some random package, but I thought the hour was odd. Also, you're correct, he gets to evaluate his behavior before reaching his destination and often just returns home. Now that I know it is Novaroma, I can go wait for him there for a quick check - and get that page a bit more up to date. :) --Krusty 06:42, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Gah! Ran into an oddity I’ve never seen before. All is good with Helvius before the training quest and he keeps up his daily routines to the letter. However, once he accepts to train you he will cancel EVERYTHING and simply wander around his house 24 hours a day, without eating or sleeping – offering training around the clock. Is this for real, also in the CS? Also, will there be an extremely rare exception to his Chapel visit id any of the quests happen to fall on a Sundas? --Krusty 15:20, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Looks like you're right on there. Once you've started the master training hand to hand quest, he will wander his house offering training forever. The only things that can knock him off this schedule is when he waits outside his house (still offering training) at certain points during the Turning a Blind Eye quest (specifically when you get the quest until you meet the Gray Fox there, and then also when you find Savilla's Stone until you turn it in). The other thing that will override this schedule is the Bruma curfew, where he will still wanders his house but will not offer training. In the case of the Sundas chapel visit, all three of the Bruma Curfew, Turning a Blind Eye and Hand to Hand Training will override his weekly visit. Thus it would be rare for him to miss a chapel visit due to Turning a Blind Eye, but once you start the Hand to Hand Training he'll never make the visit again. Sorry if that's a bit unclear. If there's any part you don't quite get let me know. --Loganfsmith 17:40, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Nope, that is perfectly clear, and I think I made a decent description on his page - I just never experienced such a change before, so I was very puzzled. Thanks for looking into it - Helvius done. Over and out! :) --Krusty 17:45, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Amusei!!!

Haha, you picked a really hot potato this time. First of all, while all the dialogue changes seem to be correct (I see you copy/pasted the entire thing, yes?), the schedule changes are not. I think the site’s best editors investigated his weird behavior for three months in order to get it right, so the schedule is, to be honest, not to be messed with. First of all, look at the bugs section of his page. That eliminates his sleep, regardless of where he is.

Also, just mentioning opening the Leyawiin cell door is a no-go as it will trigger one of the most notorious bugs in the game and halt all the messages from the Gray Fox in the future – Amusei will never lock himself out of the cell, but a description like that will tempt players to unlock it for him. That really fatal bug is on top of the Bugs section. Same with his Skingrad trip – doesn’t happen, although his bedroll will turn up there. AND he never teleports, he travels. I followed him from the IC to Leyawiin myself, so that is also to be reverted. Also, mentioning in the introductory schedule where he will seek you out during the final quests are not really necessary. It’s already described in the relevant sections.

In short – I more or less believe that all new schedule changes needs to be reverted, unless you’ve found something brand new, not covered in the Bugs section. I could point you to all the old investigations, but were talking over 20 pages filled with suggestions and stuff, so please trust me. If you have any specific questions about my ramblings in this post, please ask. The schedule was written, checked and closed – and opening up that beehive will just set us back. Also, the inventory bug looks better and less confusing under “bugs” than in his inventory section.

Sorry for all the reverts, but you chose the most complex NPC we have ever dealt with – and again, it is probably safer to add your schedule changes to the talk page first instead of integrating them into a written/checked part of the article. In the future, before spending time on a nightmare lizard, just contact me on my talk – I could have told you all of this before you started. Still, getting the last bits of dialogue – and everything corrected – was great. Please add your name as “checker” instead. Now, we only needs the rumors, i.e. the explanations from people like Ahdarji, Countess Caro and the other people talking about the damn lizard. --Krusty 22:56, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Ah, screw it; there's a lot of good stuff in there - and a whole crapload of sorting to do. You want me to do it, then fine. By the way, all the new dialogue additions - did you hear them in-game? All the former dialogue was heard in-game, so if you can check the newest bits in the game, there absolutely nothing wrong with marking yourself as "checker" - otherwise, this page will never be "checked" - or even finished. --Krusty 23:32, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

This job will probably clog up poor Amusei's page history quite a bit, so I created a Sandbox for the purpose. It contains the old version, and the new one stuffed on top of it. The differences looks like this. I'll sort it all out from there and repost the ultimate Amseu page when I'm done. --Krusty 00:06, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry! Didn't realize he was quite that complicated. It took me quite a while to sort through all his different things in the CS and make sense of it. I didn't mean to cause such trouble, I'm taking a second look at things now. Thanks a ton Krusty for helping me out and being patient with me like this. I totally didn't catch that the one sleep package doesn't happen at the very beginning because May the Best Thief Win is enabled from the start of the game. I also didn't realize that mentioning the cell door is dangerous, but I guess that makes sense since people may not always read the bugs section. As for his teleports, I'm not really sure why that doesn't happen, on further investigation it by my knowledge should. But I totally believe you, I'll leave that alone. For the dialogue, I did not hear all of it in game, so remove me as checker. To be honest by the time I finished editing the page I was a little frazzled and didn't think through making myself checker. I did my best to make sure those lines would be used, but knowing me there could be the odd error. Half of my dialogue additions were 'Hello' sequences that most players would never hear anyway since he'll be walking away, so they can be removed if they're suspect.

Well, one positive thing: I'm pretty sure that I found 99.9% of all the things involving Amusei in the CS, so at least nothing at all is left out now. I really didn't mean to throw all this work on you Krusty, if you need a hand with things let me know. In the future for big NPCs I'll for sure let you or the talk page know before I change things. Sorry to be such a bother, thanks for not roasting me on it! --Loganfsmith 03:09, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

NOT a problem whatsoever, and no need to be sorry - taking on Amusei like that takes a lot of courage and you DID find all the missing information (we didn't think too much about hello's and goodbye's back then). So no need to be sorry - I'll sort it out and we'll end up getting a much better - and more complete - page, this time with all the correct dialogue. So thank you, actually! I put it in my Sandbox just to make sure we didn't clog up his Page History (one of my favorite tools), and it is a simple matter of me trying to remember a few things; yep, he WILL teleport occasionally, but as far as I remember, only when he ends up in jail. When I noticed that you also extracted the missing rumors that have been bothering me for months and months, I decided to get back to the lizard and get it right. I'll even see if I can trigger all the new dialogue in-game, because we now have a chance to get that load of info "checked" - that would be you - and it will be worth it.

Come to think of it, I can make this project a lot easier for new editors - not really helpful that I have tons and tons of old investigations stuffed up in my Sandbox Talk pages, where nobody ever looks. I'll empty them and copy/paste them to the NPC talk pages, so people actually have a chance to know what is going on. Thats a mistake on my part, actually. Again, thanks. We can't expect these incredibly complex NPCs to be finished easily, and my mistake here is that I never left a note anywhere about why the schedule looks the way it looks. I'll have a whole ton of real-life stuff today, but I'll get started with the Amusei tweaks on saturday. It's not at all a hard task, mostly a bit of sorting and me trying to remember the oddities of the lizard. I'll be back on this page when I'm through it. :) --Krusty 06:37, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I have cleaned it up now – at least I hope so. Best way tyo watch the changes are by clicking this link. Now I’ll get to all the added dialogue (which will take a while because my saves are not meant for Amusei), but I think it’s good. As a reminder to myself, I’ll also have to doublecheck the statement: Until you actually get the book, he will attempt to get back to the Imperial City between 6am and noon, otherwise just strolling around wherever he happens to be.

A few questions though; as you can see my main goal was to keep the entire introduction free of dialogue, so I have moved all rumors and the detailed quest-related stuff to the relevant sections under Quest-related Events. What strikes me as odd is the exceptions to his “seeking-out-player” package (now a Note on the page. Is this really true? And why did they make the limits? Also, the info should be added to the three quest pages as soon as we can get it confirmed. --Krusty 18:34, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can see they are for sure correct. Specifically these are the requirements. For Arrow of Ex: 1)player must not be in jail, 2)it must be quest stage 1 for the current quest, 3)it must be quest stage 95 in Independent Thievery, 4)player must not be in Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, 5)player must be in either Anvil, Bravil, Bruma, Cheydinhal, IC, Leyawiin or Skingrad. So they left out Chorrol. For Boots of Spring: 1)player must not be in jail, 2)it must be quest stage 1 for the current quest, 3)it must be quest stage 105 in Independent Thievery, 4)player must not be in Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, 5)player must be in either Anvil, Bravil, Bruma, Chorrol, IC, Leyawiin or Skingrad. So they left out Cheydinhal. For Ultimate Heist: 1)player must not be in jail, 2)it must be quest stage 1 for the current quest, 3)it must be quest stage 95 in Independent Thievery, 4)player must not be in Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, 5)player must not be in the Elven Gardens, 6)player must be in either Anvil, Bravil, Bruma, Cheydinhal, Chorrol, IC, Leyawiin or Skingrad. So they left out the Elven Gardens, but not the rest of the IC.

As to the reasons for this, my guesses are that since they always leave out the city where the Gray Fox is going to meet you, they did it because the dialogue would sound out of place (being directed to the city you are in). For the Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, they probably did it because Schemer and the Dark Guardian would attack Amusei if he went in there. If you check Methredhel, she has similar conditions when she seeks out the player. That's my speculation though! --Loganfsmith 22:52, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I just figured it out as well and added the exceptions to his page; would be rather ridiculous if he pointed you to the same city as you are curently in, so it makes sense. I just need to make one more correction to the page, then it is finished. I added you as checker on schedule, dialogue and a few others (which actually finished the page), but let me know if there's anything you are uncertain about (Factions, manybe?) and I'll ask some people. Let's just finish it while it is fresh in our minds! Thanks! --Krusty 23:00, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know, everything's good! Glad to help clean out that skeleton in the OBNPCRP closet! --Loganfsmith 00:41, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Brilliant! Feels incredibly good to finally finish that stupid lizard. I'll launch the page in a few minutes (just remembered one final thing to check). Remember my suggestion here! :D --Krusty 07:35, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Cookie!

You have been given a cookie! Your dedication and diligence to the wiki has not gone unnoticed. A user has seen the progress you've made, and has given you a cookie because of it. Good work! The user had the following to say: You've been doing loads of fantastic work for the site. I believe you've earned yourself another incentive to continue this trend. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 04:52, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Ditto from me - now if you could just write some weird thing for your user page, so we can avoid talking to a red link, you're home safe! :) --Krusty 06:13, 20 August 2011 (UTC))

Thanks! I suppose it is time I had some sort of user page. --Loganfsmith 14:26, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Glarthir

Whoah, that Glarthir page is insanely big! Reminds me a bit of Roland Jenseric but I think this is even bigger! Good work! Just for the record, before I move the entire thing into a Sandbox and start checking; is the entire thing from the CS only, or did you listen to some of the dialogue/rumors in the game? Any comments, doubts, hints, ideas – or other stuff I should know about? --Krusty 15:08, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, yes. All of this is pulled from the CS, but I went in the game to check out his initial behaviour at the beginning of the quest to make sure I got his stalking of the player right. Checked the dialogue pretty thoroughly in the CS, but didn't go in game to see all of it. Whenever I list a bunch of lines and say he could say any of them, it's because they're on a list of random dialogue together, so if you hear one of them, you could have heard any of them. Also, it seemed whenever I looked at him when he was stalking me and he said the "Yes, you..." line, he would say it twice if I kept walking away. I left that out of the article though. There was one line in the CS that looked to me like it could never be said, so if you could double check that he wouldn't say it that'd be great. It's a line that seems like it should be said if you speak to Glarthir after you've been given his list of death, and once you've killed one but not all of the people on the list. You would get a dialogue option to say "I'm working on it" or something, and then he should say something else and go home. It didn't look to me like you would ever get the option, so I left it out. --Loganfsmith 16:14, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll have to play through the quest a few times, just to refresh the old memory - I'll keep an eye out for the missing dialogue when I do the check; also have Meth to do! ;) --Krusty 17:19, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Hey Logan! This is so temporary that I really shouldn’t share it yet, but since this is a Wiki, and you can look at my work at any time, I might as well just add a few comments. In my SANDBOX, you will witness how I’ve attempted to put the many possibilities and events into sections, and even added a (for an NPC page) rare TOC for easier navigation. I have a long way to go (haven’t started playing the quest yet), but this was my basic idea:

• Add the usual info to the introductory section, including the (thankfully) brief inventory and all the rumors from the not-involved citizens.
• Conspiracy section seems okay now. I’m unsure if Dion belongs there (he could actually get his own section if we think it a good idea). Section needs a link to the “Rampage pt 1”-section, as it is the possible outcome of saying no to Glarthir early on.
• Next three sections should be obvious. The suspects each get their own “chapter” as part of the story.
• Rampage pt 2 and Aftremath sections seems to overlap a bit. Rampage 2 should only cover what happens if Glarthir goes on his own rampage if you deny him his ‘special request’ at the end. Aftermath should cover both outcomes and the related rumors.

Tricky, but that is basically my plan. I haven’t removed anything at all (not even reworded), but let me hear what you think. Also, feel more than free to edit the Sandbox, provided you like my idea. The images are all temporary (with the exception of the Bernadette one) and I suggest additional 4:3 images of Dion, Glarthir on his rampage and even an image of his house. Happy reading! --Krusty 21:05, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

That looks awesome! I really like the layout you chose, I felt like it was rather muddled doing it chronologically like I did. I like the table of contents. This is great work! If you need anything in particular checked out or if you want me to look into something in game let me know. Otherwise, I'll just keep doing my thing. --Loganfsmith 00:47, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Hey Logan! I’ve been a bit quiet the last days, due to an incredible amount of real-life work – but I have looked on Glarthir in my free time, and there will come a few questions along the way. Let’s starts easy with a schedule question: When you have your meeting with Glarthir behind the Chapel, he will always return home if he is happy with the meeting. Oddly, a few minutes later the same night, he leaves the house and positions himself behind the Chapel again, ready for the next conversation (which was supposed to happen the NEXT night). You can actually finish the quest in one night doing this – it MUST be a bug (out of many, probably) so the question is: WHY does this happen? --Krusty 23:50, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

That's very curious. His package to meet the player is certainly flagged to only be picked once a day, where a day is defined as 24 hours after he first picked it. I have two guesses: 1) the meet player package runs over midnight so maybe the bugginess of packages that run past midnight also influences (or ignores) the 'once per day' flag; 2) Glarthir is using a script package to return home from the meetings rather than a normal package, so maybe at the end of a script package the 'once per day' flag is ignored. Only guesses, but could be! Unless there are other NPCs with the same sort of conditions these things would be hard to test. Maybe some day I'll figure out how to save my own mods and I could have a testing NPC who I could make test these things for us. --Loganfsmith 05:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Haha, I'm 99% sure it's because of that midnight-thing - it usually breaks up the packages, or starts them over or whatever (like Amusei's visits to Fareloth's House, described here or Jakben's night hunting, described here). Fact is, that is what happens and we'll have to explain it somehow in a bug note. Not too hard though, especially if you can see some similarities between the provided examples; otherwise we are up for another brief investigation of the phenomenon. I'm still in the process of checking Glarthir's schedule as I have discovered he can be trapped in a loop, even after the quest is completed (e.g. if you kill any of his "followers" before you are supposed to. Quest will end, but Glarthir will keep showing up behind the Chapel for no reason. Another bug note here, but I still need to test a few of the variants, so let's wait with that.

ONE crucial question, however, is - how exactly does Glarthir's killing spree work, in your in-game opinion? I have tested a bit, and as soon as you leave Skingrad, nothing happens. Not even for a week. When you return, Glarthir will always be chased around and killed by the Guards - so basically I'm unsure on how to test it. Still, unless you have some suggestions, I have one last idea. Real life keeps me busy, so I'll try and do the last two tests over the weekend. And all this JUST because of his schedule! :D What are you up to these days? Any work in progress? --Krusty 23:16, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Work is keeping me a little busier these days, so I haven't been doing too much for the wiki. I'm going to try to get some stuff done on the weekend. I'll look into Glarthir's things again in the CS and the game, to try and explain and corroborate your observations. Thanks for keeping me updated! --Loganfsmith 17:39, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

(←) Hello again! Took me a long time, but I think I nailed the Glarthir-layout, as evident in my Sandbox. Instead of walls of text I came up with….. tables of text!! Ah well, it seems to be the best solution if we want to document ALL possible outcomes, and that’s what we’re here for. Still, as I was going crazy creating the tables – and raised a few questions along the way - I’d really like you to do me a favor with this; read through all the tables and check if the info is correct, add the missing info (the huh-tags and whatever you may find) and make sure you are happy so far. All the info actually started to blur in front of me at some point, but I had to save - so this is a rare case of a quick double-CS-check. I haven’t checked any dialogue in-game yet as I’ve spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make this page an easy read. Getting closer, but if you can do me the favor I can begin the final check asap. Thanks in advance! Also, let me hear your thoughts about the whole thing – hope you approve of my table idea. ☺ --Krusty 21:05, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I haven't been very active at all lately, I've been spending a lot of time writing my research proposal lately, and also playing Fallout: New Vegas. Reading through: here are my notes.

• Glarthir doesn't even exist until you get fairly close to his house. Thus it is possible that before he is activated you could stand in a couple spots along his regular schedule and not see him as expected. Not terribly important, so if you don't think we need a sentence mentioning this I'm fine with that.
• Aesthetics: The picture of Dion is kind of spacing out those two paragraphs a lot. Maybe if it was moved up a couple lines the gap would go away in a pleasing manner?
• Love that you put the Glarthir's Notes at the top of each section, but maybe after each of them you could put "-- Glarthir's Notes as a reference. Otherwise people may not know where this is coming from. *I changed this*
• Tables were a stroke of brilliance. Awesome job.
• Nitpicking: I think that 'list of death' should be linked rather than added. *I changed this*
• I added the disposition hits to the table because I figured it made sense. Just realized you already did this to the Surilie table haha. I'll make them match.

It all looks really good! I just edited the sandbox a little, but feel free to change back if you think it was better before!

--Loganfsmith 00:34, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Not at all! Your edit was perfect, and everything looks really good now. You even did all the colspan-stuff that I was thinking about (but unable to do, because I feared I had messed things up along the way), so good work! Agreed on the Dion image, but let's see how the page turns out when I get everything checked. I have decided (for once) to spend the extra time and check all rumors in-game. All citizens has a Glarthir topic anyway, so it shouldn't take too long. Then we can set up that "The Town Eccentric" section when I'm finished. Also, agreed on the small "Glarthir's Notes"-links - I was thinking about ways I could link to the many different notes, so your changes are welcome (let me know if you can think of more ways to get the notes linked - maybe in house contents section?). And yep, disposition was something I forgot to mention last night, and it's really good to get everything on the tables. This page will end up a brilliant companion-piece to the quest page when we're done! I'll try and leave you alone for a moment now - and throw myself headfirst into the multitude of dialogue. Always feel free to edit the Sandbox if you think of anything - and thanks for yet another overly helpful addition to this impossible page! --Krusty 08:22, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Good luck with the dialogue! If there are any lines you can't find, let me know and I'll see if I can find them myself. Also, don't forget about that one line I mentioned where you have killed at least one but not all of the people on the death list, he might be able to say: "Oh... I see. Then it was you that... In any case, there's no need to meet me again until you've finished... the job. Safer that way. Then I will pay you in full what I promised." But in the CS it somehow looks like he can't. --Loganfsmith 15:05, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Page relaunched and it is a beauty - thanks for all your help and for writing these complex pages! Hope to see you back soon! --Krusty 13:01, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

A quickie!

Hey Logan! Just an easy request for once, simply because it pains me to see this empty page at this stage of the project. Problem is, she has some kind of radius that I simply can’t determine in-game and acts a bit weird (she often stops near the watery area near the secret entrance at D). Could you take a look in the CS and crack the code, so we can get that short schedule on the page and make it look just a bit better? Thanks in advance! --Krusty 00:51, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Haha, easy was an understatement, there's virtually nothing on her in the CS. Her only package is a wander package with a huge radius, so really she just randomly wanders the entire fort pretty much randomly (and with her energy level of 80 she moves often). Also checked everything else, or more like checked that there wasn't anything to check. I've been slowly working on assembling a complete list of Armand Christophe's things from the CS. I'll probably add that fairly soon. --Loganfsmith 03:57, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

 :D Even small NPCs deserve a little love! I figured it was an easy one (for once) and I’ll go finish her now! Also, I’ll try and take a second look at that behavior near the water (it’s probably nothing, though, haven’t played the quest in ages). Don’t know why I was so overly suspicious back then, but at least she’s finished. Thanks! --Krusty 06:12, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, there’s something about that water. At first, before you looked in the CS and added the schedule, I though she changed her behavior after Marie Antionette recommends taking the back door into Fort Sutch. Nevertheless, she is just a bit bugged – or, more precisely, the “grid pattern” seems to be bugged. When she reach the watery area, she will simply freeze there – and only return to her patrolling if you give her a push. Don’t know if it worth mentioning, but that’s the deal. --Krusty 22:04, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Ah. Grid patterns and paths I've never looked into before, but that's probably it. I think it's worth mentioning. --Loganfsmith 01:27, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

You need this!!!

You have been given a plateful of cookies! Here's something sweet to chew on while digging through Martin. Brilliant work so far - I'll check everything in-game starting tomorrow; images will be added along the way, courtesy of Dwarfmp, so beware of edit conflicts before saving. Feel free to participate in the image suggestion thread on his talk page. Respect! --Krusty 13:54, 2 November 2011 (UTC)