Shivering talk:Symbols of Office

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Skull of Corruption[edit]

Anyone experimented with using the Skull of Corruption on your double in Milchar? The results may prove interesting.

Actually I did hit my double with the skull of corruption just to see what would happen. It does in fact make a corrupt clone of your double... so in essence, there are 3 of you (good times). It also added to the chaos since I already had a golden saint summoned and my double had a lich summoned.--Lastspartan00 13:32, 7 April 2007 (EDT)

The Skull of Corruption item duplication trick works here to. Its possible to grab duplicates of everything in your inventory using this trick. I got two skulls of corruption doing this. If shadowrend is being wielding by your clones clone you can nab that to. .--Vukodlak 11 Nov 2008)
Although Skull of Corruption will get duplicated, Wabbajack will not. I cannot verify if Umbra gets duplicated. --shalley303 (talkcontribs) 22:19, 17 January 2009 (EST)
Umbra will not get duplicated, along with the Oghma Infinium. Just tested it myself, and is mentioned many places thorughout the wiki.Nordickie

Using Obelisk[edit]

(The following question was moved from UESPWiki talk:Helping Out)

Hi i have aa BIG problem, in the main quest when we shall make the Staff of Sheogorath we need an Eye and a Branch.When i aporch the Obelisk/tone my shadow image dont appear,i have tryed every thing to click on the obelisk,try to take the a brach from the Tree of Shades ,reinstall Shiveringisles lode back and get the quest and try one more time ,i have tryed too speak to Dysk(dont remember hes name) and i have tryed to go in the Grove of Reflection afther i had the Eye. Nothing work do some one know of eny cheats or is it a speasjal way do activate the obelisk ? :\ — Unsigned comment by (talk)

Hi, I've faced the same issue: If you've never seen the "I've arrived in the Grove of Reflection...." quest message, you must be in the same condition as myself. All I was able to do was bypassing the problem via console commands: open the console and type "setstage SE11 150" followed by "setstage SE11 160". I'll investigate a bit further cos' I'd really like to fight my clone ...!
I didn't get the "I've arrived in the Grove of Reflection..." message either. Didn't want to use setstage because wanted to fight the clone too, so tried to debug the quest with TES Construction Set. Here's how I got it to work: BACKUP DLCShiveringIsles.esp! If you have any mods that depend on Shivering Isles, you should only rename the original and make a new copy of it with the original's name to preserve the file modification time of the original file, and thus the load order of plugins. Open DLCShiveringIsles.esp as active file into the construction set ( File -> Data... ). From menu, select Gameplay -> Edit Scripts... From the script editor's menu, Script -> Open... the file SE11bStandingStoneScript (double-click opens it).
Between the lines ;this block creates and sets the doppleganger and if ( doOnce == 0 ) I inserted a line Message "SE11bStandingStoneScript running..." in order to start inspecting what's going on. Then I just saved this change both from script editor and construction set's main window, and tried the quest with the modified shivering isles plugin. And, surprisingly, this alone helped. This time the script started and gave the "I've arrived..." quest stage right upon entering the grove area, and everything worked like it should. You'll probably want to restore the original DLCShiveringIsles.esp from your backup when you get the quest done. For this alone to fix it makes me suspect some very insidious bug in Oblivion itself, and kind of reminds me of programming with Visual Basic. Apparently the script attached to the standing stone doesn't start running the way it should. It could be that some other change to the script might circumvent the bug too. It's also possible that this doesn't fix it at all for everyone affected. Update: According to the Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch, the problem is due to the script in question being simply "not compiled", so it may be that the script only needs to be compiled to work properly. In any case, installing the Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch is likely to fix the quest.
-- 22:12, 5 August 2007 (EDT)
I also had this problem: I would come to the Grove of Reflection and haven't got any journal updates and the Standing stone wasn't reacting. If I used the console to set stage to 150, the stone was still inert. So I have loaded up all my mods in TES4Edit to check it out. The culprit was mod Julianos Priory which edited the standing stone script (deleted content IIRC). After disabling that mod everything functioned perfect. If other users also used that mod, that explains fix above my post: you've edited Shivering isles, so it was later in load order than mod that changes it's script. Pero.lo 09:28, 30 January 2009 (EST)

Symbol of Office[edit]

i have done the main quest up to the point were you libarate the Dark seducer stronghold.When i return to shegorath he tells somthing about his stufff now being useless.he exists dialoge but nothing happens no quest update and when i click on him he repeats everything he has said.Do you know how i can solve this? --— Unsigned comment by Tolis (talkcontribs)

I completed the Ciirta quest and did not observe the "glitch:" If you speak to Ra'kheran's followers after Ciirta is dead, they will be just as upset as the other loyal apostles. (although Ra'kheran will still be delighted) In my case the two followers were glad and said "At last, we are free from Ciirta and her madness. Hail to Ra'kheran, the lightbringer!" This was with the PC GOTY edition.--Pmarin 20:18, 1 January 2008 (EST)

I just pulled that and another one off Bugs for being, well, wrong. :^p These two:
  • If you postpone the coup just as you are about to give Ra'kheran the daggers, he might never accept the daggers from you afterwards.
  • If you speak to Ra'kheran's followers after Ciirta is dead, they will be just as upset as the other loyal apostles (Ra'kheran will still be delighted, though)."
1) There's no dialog to "postpone the coup" just before giving Ra'kheran the daggers. There's only "Here you are" and "Not yet" options for the daggers. If you choose "Here you are" things proceed normally, and if you choose "Not yet" you can still choose "Here you are" as nothing changes. All other dialog options with him don't change anything either.
2) As noted, if you speak to the two followers of Ra'kheran that helped in the coup, they will say "At last! We are free from Ciirta and her madness. Hail to Ra'kheran, the lightbringer!" That doesn't sound too upset. They also have a similarly happy "hello" dialog. Kivan 14:53, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Between "The Helpless Army" and "Symbols of Office"[edit]

I've finished "The Helpless Army" and now am talking to Sheogorath. I only have three things to say and I repeat them, is that how you do it? Before I even started talking to him again, I noticed that half of his clothes are different, and he doesn't have his cane, he just leans on air. All Haskill say is "You've spoken to Dyus, yes? Then there's little else to say..." What should I do? Should I just go and speak to Dyus, even though Sheogorath isn't transformed all the way? Or just keep trying to talk to him, until he does change into Jyggalag?

101% Reflect Damage[edit]

Has anyone tried this with equipment that provides 101% Reflect Damage and 100% Resist Magic/Spell Absorption? Do neither of you take damage from anything except arrows? That could get ridiculous. IWon'tFightUndead 10:44, 18 September 2007 (EDT)

Wouldn't get too rediculous as damage can only be reflected once and therefore you will both take your own damage. -- 13:27, 25 October 2007 (EDT)

Soul Trap?[edit]

I had a black soul gem, but didn't seem to be able to trap my soul.


Anyone else tried?

-Cheeseness 02:11, 14 October 2007 (EDT)

I've never had a problem with Black Soul gems. Make sure it's empty and that the Soul Trap spell hasn't worn off. I know that's obvious but it's all I can think of. --RpehTCE 03:12, 14 October 2007 (EDT)

Apostle's Robes[edit]

Someone should put on the front page that if you can somehow steal one of the apostle's robes without being detected and put them on, then Ciirta's followers will act as if you're some new addition and you won't be attacked. You'll even be able to march up to Ciirta herself and talk to her. This will make this part of the quest a lot easier, and I think that this was the method that Bethesda intended, considering that the other apostles will reference the fact that you're wearing their robes. --Darth NANAME 23:17, 4 January 2008 (EST)

Yes, fair point. Done. –RpehTCE 08:17, 11 January 2008 (EST)

Cloned Weapon and Armor[edit]

I had an interesting experience in the Grove of Reflexion. After defeating my clone I found duplicates of the sword and shield I used in the fight just lying around on the ground. Since I was using Umbra from the Clavicus Vile quest which is a quest item, I've been running around with 2 Umbra's ever since. I wonder if I get to keep one when I return to Clavicus' shrine. When I sold one of the 2 shields I got to keep the other one too...

That's a known way of duplicating otherwise unique weaponry and armor. It can be quite useful! You should indeed be able to keep one of the swords. If in doubt, drop it somewhere before activating the Clavicus Vile statue. —RpehTCE 03:54, 6 January 2008 (EST)
I don't think you can drop it--it's a quest item, after all. Shashakiro 20:36, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Clone's shoutings[edit]

Do the clone's (your) battle-crys (or whats their name) change with additional plugins, achievements, guild ranks, ...? I'd opt to say yes, since he shouted For Akatosh and the Nine! and something about Zenithar, but I coulden't understand quite well.--LordDagon 05:09, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Indeed it does. I have heard my clone yell out "for the nine!" then say "Night mother I beg your mecry!" two seconds -- 77BeTa77
I wondered why mine was yelling stuff about the Dragonfires...must be because of the Blades faction, heh. Pretty interesting. Shashakiro 20:40, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Unending Quest[edit]

I added the text because I still have Symbols of Office as a current quest, despite the fact that I have finished the main quest. Do you know of any way to 'finish' it? (Bearing in mind that I have the GOTY edition on PS3, so set stages and the console aren't applicable.)

There's probably no way then. It definitely finishes for me and I've not heard of anybody else having that problem - that's why I removed it. –RpehTCE 09:53, 2 March 2008 (EST)
I had the same problem! I think this warrants a mention in the "Bugs" Section.--Techercizer 13:40, 6 April 2008 (EDT)


Is it possible to overencumber yourself with items just before you start the clone battle? If it is then will the clone be overencumbered upon arrival? --Matthewest TCE 22:46, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

Can not get Shadowrend[edit]

I found that If you shadow is not using shadrend when you kill him/her, you can not pick it up. Can aone confirm this?--Jas1n 15:48, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Yup that's true. The first time I did the quest I was using a better sword (from a mod) and my clone used the same sword. Shadowrend never appeared. –RpehTCE 05:29, 30 April 2008 (EDT)
This can happen if you have any bound weapon spells. The clone might cast one and unequip Shadowrend. I'll throw this into Bugs along with the obligatory USIP tag. :^) Kivan 14:46, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Solution for Grove of Reflection bug[edit]

Disabling the "Prox - Arena Loot v1.1.esp" modification before entering the Grove of Reflection in Milchar lets the quest begin normally.

Summon Lich[edit]

I recently did this quest and was fighting my clone in the Grove of Reflection and it summoned a Lich. I don't have any conjuration skill, I can only summon things with Greater Powers like Dark Seducers etc. I was wondering, has this happened to anyone else, and why does this happen? I am playing on the 360 so I can't look into the console or anything... anyway I thought it was just a strange occurance.

If u got Summon Lich ur clone can use it. it happended 2 me my clone kept summoning a xivilai and i couldnt use the spell

I figured it out. I didn't own the spell or anything, but I had a scroll that had been rotting away in my inventory. Sorry if I wasted anyone's time.

Crashing When Fighting Clone[edit]

Subject line says it all, really. I'm getting crashes while fighting my clone. The game locks up, and it appears the only way out is a full system reset. Has anybody else experienced and/or resolved this? --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 16:20, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

With further attempts, I was able to get this to work; still unsure what caused it, though, so if anybody has any ideas.... --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 16:26, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

100% Chameleon[edit]

What happens if your at 100% Chameleon and your clone is the same as well, will he/she be able to detect you? Helper Unknown 08:17, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

No they will not be able to detect you. Selfworm 16:11, 18 August 2008 (EDT)
Late reply, but the clone doesn't appear to be 100% chameleon as you can still see his shape after he changes. Strangely, it seems to only be created via the chameleon does run out eventually, especially if you kill the clone and resurrect it as a follower. TVthePunisher 23:46, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Quest Trophy[edit]

I've removed the VN tag from The Book of Prophetic Deductions, but it's not a normal book, merely one of the quest rewards in the alcoves. Every quest in the main SI questline has a trophy that will appear, with the exception of SE01 (the appearance of the door in Niben bay) and SE14 (completion of the main questline...which has its own "trophies" in the sense of the healer, et al). So my question is, should we remove the mention of the trophy here, or add the tropies to all the other quests? --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 13:07, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

I don't think it does any harm, and one or two of the other pages mention their rewards. I'd say add 'em all in. –RpehTCE 13:57, 18 August 2008 (EDT)
Okay, so next question: would it make sense to add a "Trophy" tag to the Quest Header template, or make a specific Quest Header for SI? Or should I just include the trophies in the notes? I think I can modify the template myself, especially given other similar sections to use as an example, but not sure if that's a good plan or not. (And if I do, I'll sandbox it, of course, before changing it permanently.) --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 15:00, 18 August 2008 (EDT)
I'd vote for just adding them to the notes, instead of adding them to the quest template. They're not useful items, so they're being added as trivia rather than because they're a factor in how you do the quest (or whether you do the quest). --NepheleTalk 16:56, 18 August 2008 (EDT)
Okay, I'll work on that tomorrow, then. --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 22:53, 18 August 2008 (EDT)
Completion of the main questline does indeed have a trophy; behind the fountain, all the way in the back of the room, you can find the Sword of Jyggalag. Unlike the other trophies, you can pick up and wield it.- 17:52, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. I missed it two years ago, probably because it doesn't appear as a "trophy" per se, but looking at the Construction Set, it clearly it one. Apparently I never added the trophy info to the quests two years ago, so I'll do so now, including the sword. Robin Hoodtalk 20:35, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Haskill won't talk to me...?[edit]

So, after talking to Sheogorath, I got the quest update telling me to talk to Haskill, but he wouldn't let me. Every time I clicked, he just stared like, "what?"

I completed everything up to Symbols of Office in the main quest line, then left SI to get the Gray Cowl so it would absorb my fame for the remaining quests >:) When I talked to Sheogorath, I donned the Cowl, as I wasn't sure if that was the end of a quest that would give me Fame. When I went to talk to Haskill, he didn't react with the Cowl on or off. Not sure if this is related.

Anyone else ever seen this, inside or outside this quest? I finally figured out how to solve the problem by using Summon Haskill, which forces him to talk to you. 16:34, 20 February 2009 (EST)

Yes, it's documented on the glitches page. However I'm going to put it on Haskill's page as well, since that was the first place I looked (I knew I had read it somewhere) and I'm sure other people have done the same. --Macros the Black 16:39, 20 February 2009 (EST)

Quest remaining?[edit]

Is it just me or does this quest stick around in your journal? I've defeated Jyggalag, and the quest still remains in my journal, the very last note still there about visiting the Font of Madness. Quest marker points me there, I activate, and the Staff of Sheogorath is recharged. I know that's supposed to happen, but is the quest supposed to remain for people to know they can recharge the staff? — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 27 July 2009

No, it's not supposed to happen. Happened to me as well, probably some bug. Type "setstage se11 205" to move the quest to the list of completed quests. WRFan 00:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Fixing Ciirta bugs[edit]

Noticed two bugs on the Ciirta quest, not fixed by the Unofficial SI Patch:

If you already have three Apostle daggers when talking to Ra'kheran for the first time, but refuse to give them to him, the quest stage 112a will not be set properly and the "Daggers" topic will not appear in the list of Ra'kheran's topics, making it impossible to finish this quest by allying with Ra'kheran.

To fix this, open Ra'kheran's conversation topics in the TES CS, find the topic with the ID "SE11RakheranDaggerDontGive" (appears as "Not yet." in the game) and change the script linked to this topic like this:

if ( Player.GetItemCount SE11ApostleDagger >= 3 )
   set SE11.PlayerHasDaggers to 1
setstage SE11 112
addtopic SE11RakheranDagger

When Ra'kheran and his friends attack Ciirta, Luminary Kaz will attack the player, instead of Ra'kheran and his friends.

There are some weird errors in Ra'kheran's script:

- Luminary Kaz should attack Ra'kheran and his friends, not the player. Why would he attack the player? Comment out the line that forces him to attack the player and instead mod his dispo with Ra'kheran and his friends:

; SE11Apostle05Ref.StartCombat Player ; nonsense, comment out
SE11Apostle05Ref.ModDisposition SE11RakheranRef -200
SE11Apostle05Ref.ModDisposition SE11ApostleTraitor01Ref -200
SE11Apostle05Ref.ModDisposition SE11ApostleTraitor02Ref -200

Besides, the following code is listed twice for some reason (SERakheranScript):

SE11Apostle05REF.SetFactionRank SE11ApostleFaction -1


SE11ApostleTraitor02Ref.StartCombat SECiirtaRef

No need to repeat the same code twice, comment one of them out respectively. WRFan 19:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


What shield does your clone use in the battle. I never found any shield on the floor next to the corpse.

(s)he doesn't they use a unique claymore or battleaxe called Shadowrend 23:34, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

acculally they have whatever you have so they could have a shield--GUM!!! 23:40, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
GUM, A claymore is a 2 handed weapon. They cannot possibly have a shield.--Corevette789 23:41, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
no ike if you have a better weapon they'll use that or something--GUM!!! 23:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
The clone will only have a shield if the player character has one at the time of the clone being created. If it switches to a weapon where it can use a shield, then that's bad, cause the clone has to wield Shadowrend to drop it. -- Jplatinum16 00:14, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
So under the rare circumstance his weapon breaks, then he has the players shield. Okay that makes sense.--Corevette789 00:55, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Sheo revealing his secret[edit]

I've just learned that the Sheogorath doesn't reveal the secret about his divided personality at the start of SE11, but right after coming the messenger from SE10. I think it should be fixed. - ZuTheSkunk 08:52, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

What are you referring to, specifically? Robin Hoodtalk 20:54, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
To the Introduction part of this article and to the topic "SE10SheoJyggalag". - ZuTheSkunk 11:51, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, that wasn't clear. What I mean was: who tells you? What do they say or do? That'll make it easier to verify so any required corrections can be made. Robin Hoodtalk 17:11, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Okay, so further explanation: Introduction part says that only in this moment (beginning of SE11) player discovers that the Sheogorath is Jyggalag (or at least it sounds like that). But instead, player discovers it at the beginning of the previous quest, SE10. Aureal/Mazken messenger arrives and triggers short conversation with Sheo, and then Madgod starts conversation with player, saying that it's quite surprising that the Order tries subterfuge. Then player asks why Jyggalag hasn't attacked himself - and this is the moment when Sheo reveals his secret, answering this question. So the Introduction doesn't tell the truth in this case. I hope it is clear now? ;) - ZuTheSkunk 19:52, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Kill him with suicide armor?[edit]

If I were to drop my regular armor and wear the suicide 0 weight armor that I use to assassinate people legally right as the double spawns, would that be an easy way to make this fight end quick? Like, put on Blackwood Ring of Silence for a second as he's spawning, or would he just unequip it? --Tenraah 04:20, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Kill the clone with a feather spell...[edit]

If you overencumber yourself then use a feather spell/potion to approach the tree will the effect go onto the clone? If not then this is fundamentally paralysis so you can kill him with ranged attacks... 17:22, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

  • It would be better to make sure you had no weaponry and not any means of feathering the weight in you inventory when he spawns in. That will basically make him immobile and sure to use shadowrend. 08:48, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
If you feathered yourself with spell/potion then wouldn't the clone be able to do the same? (unless you only have one potion-- 22:01, 21 February 2014 (GMT))

Information in the article[edit]

From the article: Make sure you do not have a torch in your equipment, as the clone will have it lit and will be able to use a shield regardless of you not having any one-handed weapon and/or you have disintegrated the clone's one handed weapon. If it can use a shield, the clone may prefer a weapon other than Shadowrend.

This is not true at least in some cases. I had several torches, as well as one-handed weapons and a shield, but the clone fought using Shadowrend, as well as some spells (which is funny, because my character is not a mage and any aggressive spells she might have are probably... a bit unsuited to her level). This should probably be rewritten to reflect that it does not happen every time (I'd do it myself, but I have no idea if it actually happens at all). --IronMaiden 11:31, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Shadow Clone Base ID[edit]

Does it have a unique one, or does it use the same ID as the player character? I gather I could use the Construction Set to work it out for myself, but as yet I've had no experience with that, so I ask in the hopes that someone with the know-how would be willing to check for me...

(I intend to set it as essential, so I can treat it as a trophy of sorts. Granted, I don't need the "essential" flag to do that, but it would be rather more convenient then worrying about whether it'll die in the wilderness somewhere). -  Bomb Bloke (Talk/Contribs) 00:04, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

After reading this I was curious so I looked into it, and I was very impressed reading the scripting done for this part of the quest. It uses player.createfullactorcopy, and then applies the effects that the Doppelganger has. It removes "quest items and problem spells" and removes it from all guilds. It then adds the weapon, depending on player level, and the Blade and Blunt skills. If you want to utilize this, your best bet would be to copy the script from the CS and modify it to something you can use at will. --DKong27 Talk Cont 03:49, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Clone stops attacking....resulting in MURDER[edit]

Xbox360, GOTY edition. Clone attacks me at first. We end up in what seems like a long fight, way longer than any normal battle anyway. Clone stops attacking, raises arms out to side and throws head back, as if in victory. I took a few seconds to heal up some, and lanched an attack, eventually killing it, and get the message "Your Murder has been witnessed by unknown forces" or some such. Weird huh? 11:10, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

By murdering him you have started to dark brotherhood questline. Read this page


(originally posted on the article)

Okay, I have a question. It might be a bug, but Dyus isn't accepting the Eye and Branch. He keeps saying "inaction conflicts with your purpose the longer you here with me the further the balance shifts towards your enemy" I thought it was something about an enemy around but there wasn't anything. I can't complete the quest, is there any way to fix this? Thanks. - B1oxhazz4rd — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 22 September 2011

Errr excuse me?[edit]

So I drop almost ALL my gear and bring in the clone. She is wearing Umbra's armor and wielding Umbra. In turn, I'm equip myself with what I didn't drop: the Robe of Glib Tongues and the Fork of Horripilation. I tried three times with the same results. I died three times in a heap on top of the Ebony armor and Umbra. The clone is much smarter than I am, right? — Unsigned comment by Sniffles (talkcontribs) at 05:34 on October 5, 2011

Theoretically that should work. Except for the weapon. They will always use Shadowrend. I think Umbra is one of the items removed from the clone actually. It might just depend on when you drop your things compared to when the clone is set, but I don't have the time to check right now. Maybe later. --DKong27 Tk Ctr Em 12:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Well nertz. Me be feeling pretty stoopid with zilch armor rating and waving a fork about as the Ebony juggernaut turns my char into lunch meat. — Unsigned comment by Sniffles (talkcontribs) at 22:52 on October 5, 2011
Got around to checking it...The clone is creating with a script on the Standing Stone. The thing is that it is created with a OnLoad command, rather than OnActivate. So when the player enters the cell, the clone is generated and altered appropriately, then moved to a holding cell until the Stone is activated. Then the clone is given Shadowrend and moved to the Grove to attack the player. So if you wanted to drop anything, you wold have to leave them in a different cell before entering the Grove. --DKong27 Tk Ctr Em 18:37, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Aha! So what I did was really quality stupid! Yeay! Fortunately the clone relied on using my most powerful spell, Summon Xivilai for 3 seconds, a dumb experiment. It also relied in using my only healing spell, Heal Minor Wounds and not the healing potions. So we each shafted ourselves! Wuss characters with major weaknesses rule! Sometimes. Sniffles 21:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Thats kinda odd, cause i did the same thing with my amour, which, when wearing gives me 100% Chameleon, and yet the clone is not 100% - i can still see it as having about 50% Chameleon. Ill check again, but still.... Also, what govens the clones weapon in terms of what ones better - Shadowrend or PlayerWeapon? G-Rath 04:47, 24 January 2012 (UTC)