UESPWiki:Archive/CP Oblivion Master Training Quests

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Oblivion Master Training Quests

The Master Trainers each have their own NPC pages, and the requirements for their training are alway on those pages, but in several cases, there are links to things like Alchemy Training on those NPC pages. And they redirect right to the NPCs! Confusing? Certainly! I'd like to propose that we actually create quest pages for the Master Trainer Quests. If for no other reason, so that there's not a link on Sinderion's page redirecting back to himself. Somercy 10:24, 28 September 2007 (EDT)

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm guessing that the reason it was done like this was that there wasn't much information on the pages back in the dim and distant so combining the NPC and the quest may have been a good idea. With things as they are these days it seems odd and confusing to have the two things on the same page. And with all the Quest and NPC templates I don't think there'll be much of a problem with stub-like pages. --Rpeh^Talk 10:34, 28 September 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, I suppose there should be individual quest pages for the master training quests. They could have a similar layout to the Darkness Eternal quest page.--Willyhead 11:10, 28 September 2007 (EDT)

I too think it is a very good idea. Having them on the NPC page is a bit odd. --Mankar Camoran 11:43, 28 September 2007 (EDT)

For reference, past discussions about this issue are at Oblivion_talk:Master Training#Redirects? (note, however, that some parts of that discussion are obsolete. In particular, it is now possible to do redirects to the middle of a page. Also, the layout of the Master Training page was quite different back then, for example [1]).

I'm not really in favour of separating out the master trainer quests. I'd rather just fix the one or two cases of bad links.

One reason is the problem of the pages becoming stubs. Even with quest and NPC templates, many of the master training quest pages will end up being ridiculously empty (for example, Oblivion:Illusion Training or Oblivion:Mercantile Training). There won't be much of anything to fill the quest template (no image unless you just want to repeat the NPC image; one section in the TOC).

But the bigger problem in my mind is that you end up with two pages containing the same information, which is much too difficult to maintain. When there were separate NPC and quest pages for some of these quests, readers still expected to find the quest information on the NPC page. Even if the two pages start with identical information, over time different information gets added to the two pages, and you end up with a situation where neither page has complete or accurate information. Compare for example Heavy Armor Training and Pranal. Or Block Training and Andragil. In each case, those were the versions of each page available at the same time (right before I merged the information into a single page). Look through the page histories and you will find many more examples.

At any rate, that's why things are organized the way that they currently are. --Nephele^Talk 15:17, 28 September 2007 (EDT)

I'd be willing to take this on... my proposal: I'll go through the Master Trainers' NPC pages, check "What Links Here," and change any that should be pointing to Oblivion:Master Training rather than the NPC page. Any objections? --GuildKnight (Talk) ^contribs 19:49, 28 September 2007 (EDT)

Ummmm... I'm not sure I understand why it's better to have a link to, for example, Oblivion:Master Training#Acrobatics than to Oblivion:Acrobatics Training. The Acrobatics Training link takes reader directly to the page with the most information about how to complete the quest, rather than to a summary table with no details about the quest. Even if for whatever reason people think that going to the Master Training page is more appropriate, then it would be far better to simply change the redirect on the Oblivion:Acrobatics Training than to change every single link to the redirect. Then if, as a result of this discussion, Oblivion:Acrobatics Training is turned into a standard quest page instead of a redirect, again, none of the links to the page need to be updated. I'm just really missing what advantage is being gained by these changes.... --Nephele^Talk 22:18, 28 September 2007 (EDT)

The old links illustrating the duplicate information problem are interesting and I agree we'll probably get something similar happening every so often. I think the problem will be obviated in the new design though - it took me a moment to find the training link on Pranal's page whereas we'll be giving 'em a big ol' Related Quests section. Keeping the information off will then be the job of your friendly neibghorhood patrollers! As to the advantage of the proposed switch: I'm simply of the opinion that Quests should be on Quest Pages rather than NPC ones. It will help to simplify what is currently a bit of a spaghetti mix of pages, sections and redirects too. This area of the site seems to have grown a bit organically, hence things like Sinderion's page linking to itself. Once proper quest pages are in place then Oblivion:Master Training can be deleted too. --Rpeh^Talk 05:59, 1 October 2007 (EDT)