Skyrim talk:Archery/Archive 2

This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Archery discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Skill down

For some reason my archery skill dropped significantly, it is down to 15 (before it was in the 50s) but the Magic Tab says that I do not have any adverse effects running. How come - and more importantly - how to do away with this? --93.232.154.164 02:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

That happened to me too; you can either train until your archery skill goes up a level, or do it the easy way by going to a trainer. I recommend just training unless you have a perk point to use on archery. I took the lazy way and went to the archery trainer hanging around near the Companions. --74.108.158.212 20:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't it say on one of the loading screen that you can lose skill points when you spend time in jail? Maybe that's what happened--193.252.26.70 09:39, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

you don't lose whole skill levels -.-, just the progress made in the level you're on. — Unsigned comment by 121.208.104.114 (talk) at 01:58 on December 9, 2011

This is a very common bug, usually related to One Handed. Most times you can fix this by simply activating any shrine, drinking a cure disease potion - other times you need to wait until the next level up. — Unsigned comment by 81.61.40.53 (talk) at 20:06 on December 30, 2011

This has been reported several places. It is only a display glitch in the Skill display. If you go into the Archery Perk Tree it will show your correct value. It has NO effect on the damage value of bow shots and it will auto correct on the next level-up or skill-up. Philbert 20:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Update - This just happened again at archery skill=93, I read a skill book to bring it to a fast 94 and it cleared. There must be several values where this happens through a skills progression or its a random occurrence. I did no tests to see if the damage dropped (PS3 so I can't see the stats.) Philbert 01:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

The damage does drop when it happens, so it`s quite annoying to have it lowered by up to 50% at times ... Although you don`t have any active negative effects, a cure diseases / shrine will fix it and if you`re on the PC version you can have an easy fix by changing the marksman value to a random amount and then back to normal [ marksman = real name of archery when dealing with it through the console ] zomiganowai 03:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Damage per second?

So say I have a hunting bow and a elven bow and I am using generic arrows for both (lets just say steel), the hunting bow draws much faster than the elven bow, but the elven bow does more damage per shot. Is it better to use the hunting bow if I can reliably hit the target due to its speed and then hope I can get more shots off to equal or exceed elven bow damage, or is the raw power but slower speed of the elven bow better? I feel like the hunting bow would be interrupted less often in combat. The chart in the above category seems to say no but any ideas? — Unsigned comment by 50.82.61.72 (talk) at 18:04 on December 17, 2011

Quite the paradox you have there... but, when you get to thinking Archery (for me) is about distance what can ready faster aim faster and kill faster... usually faster wins by ¾, but really damage is what to think about ultimately killing faster and more accuratly so use the elven bow with more damage. — Unsigned comment by 67.182.46.50 (talk) at 21:37 on December 17, 2011

Remember there is a perk cost for getting Elven Smithing not to mention Arcane Blacksmith if you want to hone an enchanted bow. If you want to wear leather (and leather is a viable armor all the way through the game), then you can save the 3 perk points for smithing and put them in archery and the Elven Bow damage will be less than the Longbow, or you can put 2 in archery damage and 1 in steel and the Hunting Bow will have more damage than Elven and less damage than Longbow. It's really your choice. At higher levels of smithing the difference in Armor rating between leather and Elven or Glass isn't that much. Once you get over 1000 (easy to do with leather) I'm not sure the difference is noticeable. — Unsigned comment by 74.141.192.170 (talk) at 02:40 on January 30, 2012

I have also noticed that long bows and hunting bows seem to draw much faster than ebony and daedric bows, and discovered a formula relating bow weight to draw time:

Total Draw time = 1 + 0.4 * [1 + (0.1 * bow weight)]

This does not take into account the quick shot perk in the archery skill tree which cuts down draw time significantly. After doing some dps calculations in excel and after taking into account variables such as arrow type, archery skill, smithing improvement and enchantment damage, I can conclude that when you have an unenchanted bow, daedric, ebony and glass bows provide the greatest DPS, compared to long bows and hunting bows. To make a long bow or hunting bow equal the DPS of a Daedric bow, they would need to be enchantment with at least 80 extra damage from enchantments (such as fire, frost or shock damage).

A very strong contender against daedric bows is the Nord Hero bow, with a base damage somewhere between orcish and dwarven but the weight of a hunting bow, which with enchantments can make it surpass the daedric bow. To acquire this, you need to start the Companions questline for this to be available for purchase from Eorland Gray-Mane at the Skyforge.

Another very stong contender is the bound bow and the mystic bound bow (bound bow with mystic binding perk from the conjuration tree). The mystic bound bow has the same base damage as the daedric bow, comes with 100 daedric equivalent arrows when summoned and it has a weight of zero, so it can be drawn very quickly. This makes it very desirably, however it cannot be improved by smithing or enchanted. This said, a legendary daedric bow would have to be enchanted with at least 45 enchantment damage to surpass the mystic bound bow's DPS.

So what does all this mean? Well, if you don't plan on maxing out your enchanting and smithing skills, the mystic bound bow is the way to go, but it requires around 185 magicka to conjure, although this can be lessened with the conjuration skill and perks, or armor with fortify conjuration or fortify magicka.

If you dont want to invest in perks in conjuration, enchanted conjuring equipment or in extra magicka, you should aim to get the Nord Hero bow, especially for lower levels.

Other than that, the best bow is generally the one with the highest base damage, namely the Daedric Bow, which is definitively the best bow in the game if you intend to invest in enchanting and smithing.

One final thing. If you don't want to invest in enchanting, another good choice is the Nightingale Bow, available through the Thieves' Guild questline which is a levelled item, so the magnitude of the enchantments is greater if you obtain it when you are a higher level. For 46+, it comes with the same base damage as a daedric bow as well as 30 frost damage and 15 shock damage. To rival this, you would have to enchant a Daedric bow with two weapon enchantments which requires 100 enchanting.

So all in all, the best bow really just depends on your playstyle.

Block leveling up with bow?

This has happened to me for the second time. My block skill went up when I was doing a bow right click. I noticed I got hit by a second enemy while doing the pushback animation on the second time it happened (can't remember the first). Anyone else had this happen? My block is very low. — Unsigned comment by 50.21.132.136 (talk) at 22:36 on December 18, 2011

It does work. With my first player, I was a bowman, and when the enemies were asking mercy, I butted them with my bow (to save arrows) and my skill went up. Probably since the block button is used to bash with the bow. — Unsigned comment by 96.38.133.242 (talk) at 04:34 on January 26, 2012

I had a different experience. My Archery leveled up upon bow bashing instead of my block. This has only happened to me once so far. ````— Unsigned comment by 112.209.253.143 (talk) at 10:11 on 19 February 2012

Practical tests: hunting vs. daedric: arrow speed, range

Effective range:

I did a test on this today. I summoned Lydia, turned off AI/Combat AI, set myself to 9999 stamina, turned on God mode, made Lydia essential and gave her 9999 health. I then gave myself a hunting bow, a glass bow, and a daedric bow.

My initial target on any test was Lydia's head. The first round of tests used steel arrows. Using the hunting bow with steel arrows, I backed off to the point that I had to start to aim over Lydia's head to hit her (using bow arc). The arrows landed in her boot at this point. Finding out that the Daedric bow hit her straight in the head at that range, I then backed up to the point that I had to start aiming just a bit over her head with the Daedric bow to hit her. The arrows hit around her shoulders despite the same amount of over-aim; the velocity of the arrows (and thus the ballistic curve) causes this, see below.

From this range, I then switched back to the hunting bow. To my chagrin, I had to aim about 3 Lydia heights above her head to hit her with the hunting bow. The glass bow faired surprisingly well; at the same range (the extreme limit for the range for the Daedric bow aiming at her head), the glass bow only needed a small rise above her head. Their effective ranges are quite close (especially good considering that the glass bow is 70 smithing and the daedric is 90).

With all this in mind, I started to wonder if arrow type affected arrow arc/bow range. I switched to Daedric arrows and found out that the test results were exactly the same.

I went to the hunting-bow extreme range (with a target on her head), and placed Faendal there. Then I backed up - making sure to stay on a flat plane - and placed From-Deepest-Fathoms at the range of the Daedric bow. I then turned clipping off and flew up into the sky until I had a good view, and determined that the Daedric bow had about a ~50-60% further range (before needing to arc over the target) than the hunting bow!

I wondered what might cause this. My hypothesis was arrow speed. I closed in the range so that the hunting bow actually hit her in the head (instead of in the foot) when I aimed there. I found I had to lower the Daedric how's aim to compensate for this; the Daedric bow shot over her head at this distance when I aimed at her. Anyhow.

Point being, I used a metronome (counting beats with it set fast) to figure out that arrows from the Daedric bow travel *roughly* twice as fast as arrows from the hunting bow.

There's another important thing here: these tests show how far until arrows aimed at a character's head hit their boots. Obviously this is not ideal; you do not need to try to be lining up a target's head during combat just to ensure you hit some part of their body (i.e. their boots). You want to be able to target them reasonably and hit somewhere close to that. I did a quick re-test and found that, with the hunting bow, the arrows hit Lydia's head from (my perspective) too short a distance, and they were accurate with the Daedric bow to roughly three times the distance of the hunting bow. Three times!

What does this mean in a practical sense? It means you're more accurate on moving targets with a heavier bow, because your lead time is much narrower and closer to the target, and because you have much more leniency for not getting your shot vertically lined up perfectly. It means you can snipe from further away. It means that you will be more accurate because at the practical combat distance limit (aiming at her head and hitting her head) with the hunting bow you have to be three times closer than the Daedric bow!

For short-range engagements - practically melee engagements - the upgraded hunting bow's draw speed may be an advantage, however, as an archer, you want to be at a longer range, I assume. Or at least to have some flexibility to shoot from different ranges. You get much, much improved accuracy with a heavier bow. I think that the 30% faster draw speed perk is meant to offset the slower draw of heavier bows.

Oh, character stats: level 18, archery 63, overdraw 80%, steady hand 1/2, power shot. No 30% increased draw speed. Glass bows were only outperformed by Daedric bows by a very small amount. 96.39.118.124 19:49, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Nice tests, thanks a lot! 178.183.246.92 19:52, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Not to taint your results or anything, some time ago I did some tests on arrow range too, and I noticed the same thing about range (used daedric, mystic bound and hunting bow, had 30% less draw time perk). Daedric has the greatest range, mystic has a decent range and hunting has the shortest range among the three. HOWEVER, the objective of my tests was to compare arrow range with drawing time and between different bows. I concluded, albeit not with certainty, that arrow range for all bows follows a constant distance/time-drawn ratio, modified by how far the bow can shoot. And the max distance is achieved holding the fire button for 3 seconds regardless of bow type. This means that all bows (that I tested) will only shoot the farthest if you hold the button for 3 seconds, if you hold it for 2 seconds, they'll all shoot at the "same" range, that is, proportional with the max arrow range for that bow, and if you fumble (just click the button), the arrows will land at distances proportional to the max range of the bow as well. Since there's no reliable way measure distances and degrees, there's no reliable way to confirm any of this. However, measuring time is easier, so at the very least I will stand with my conclusion that to shoot the farthest, one must hold the mouse button for at least approximately 3 seconds, even if you're using a bound bow that draws much faster than that. So, talking to the OP again, did you make sure you were always firing the furthest for all bows during your tests?

Of course, all this could be completely wrong, but I'm sure of at least one thing: shot distance is completely unrelated to the drawing animation. Perhaps the drawing animation indicates how much damage the shot will do.--201.1.30.131 05:26, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Shot distance is definitely related to the drawing animation. Try holding down the mouse button for the shortest possible time that will fire an arrow; it noticeably goes very little distance at all.

What I'm wondering is, is this all calculated independently or is it just derived from the speed of the arrow? 199.74.93.170 19:11, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

For what it is worth, my range test (savestates and a giant's leg) came out roughly like this: Long < Hunting = Ancient Nord = Nord Hero = Mystic(bound) = Forsworn = Imperial = Drainspell < Orcish < Dwarven = Falmer < Elven < Glass < Ebony < Daedric. Tempering a bow does not seem to improve its range. Make of that what you will. (Edit: Supple bows have equal range to their counterparts. They are just heavier, and do more damage.) Also, with some very basic tests the shortest possible draw seems to do about 1/3 the damage of a full draw.--98.235.34.121 16:21, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

NPC dodge

It seems that NPCs can randomly dodge arrows. I was shooting a bandit, and right before the arrow hits him, he slides to the side. I try again, and the same thing happens. he was running towards me, and the sneak :meter was almost fully open. This was after the quest Trinity Restored. Help? — Unsigned comment by 98.198.190.208 (talk) at 00:56 on 14 February 2012

That's a part of the AI. If they see an arrow coming towards them, they can dodge it just like the player would, and will even try to track it back to its source. Sucks having artificial intelligence actually being intelligent sometimes, doesn't it? ;) – Robin Hood↝talk 01:25, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I noticed that this only happens when an NPC at least partially detects you. I've never seen it happen when i'm completely hidden, only when i'm either completely visible, or when i'm still undetected, but the enemy knows that i'm there. Your first shot will still never be "dodged" if you are completely undetected when you fire it.Limduhl 15:31, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Shot Location and Blocking

The main article says that shot location on a target doesn't matter, which seems to be true as far as i've been able to tell, BUT it can matter in at least one specific corner case. I was playing at level 51 with oversmithed daedric gear and high +archery damage enchants and i was playing through the second quest in the Civil war questline. It was laughably easy, with any imperial or stormcloak character dying in only one hit even without the bow drawn back all the way. I noticed one thing that was really cool to see, but did, in fact, make arrow location matter. At one point while i was firing on an enemy soldier who was in combat with allied soldiers, the enemy soldier raised his shield JUST as i fired at him. The arrow, instead of slaying him outright, instead bounced off his shield without damaging him. My GUESS, is that at very high levels, it is possible for NPCs to have the block perk that makes arrows do no damage if they hit a shield. This is, however, probably only possible while the enemy target is fighting something else, as they would otherwise have no reason to raise their shield. This isn't a particularly game changing find...in fact its pretty insignificant, but i thought it worthwhile at least to note it on the talk page that in at least one extreme corner case, shot location CAN matter. Limduhl 15:28, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

remove light vs heavy bow pro vs con chart?

The entire discussion is pointless, with higher end bows you can always choose to draw partially for faster shooting rate. — Unsigned comment by 50.99.131.84 (talk) at 20:38 on 23 February 2012

True, but you don't get stagger effect with a partial draw. With 100(+100% enchant) smithing and a double +30 damage enchant a daedric bow will do 117 base damage and a Nordic Hero bow 109, a difference of 18. Without Quick draw this give us 55 dps for a Daedric bow and 65 dps for a Nordic Hero bow. Including Quick Draw gives us ~88 versus 91. The Daedric bow might bridge this gap by not drawing fully (haven't actually calculated dps for partial draw) but even then a Nordic Hero bow will retain the stagger effect from full draw+Power Shot while a Daedric bow wouldn't.

>A reinforced and enchanted light bow has shorter draw time and higher dps, but less range and lower arrow speed (as discussed above), allowing them rapid fire while still staggering with the appropriate perk. Effective at close to medium range.

>A reinforced and enchanted heavy bow has longer draw time and lower dps (migitated by Quick Draw), but better range and higher arrow speed (as discussed above) as well as higher single-shot damage, making them suited for accurate long-range combat.

>Higher effective smithing skill and higher effective enchanting skill will both increase dps for light bows faster than heavy bows. At 100 smithing and enchanting + Quick Draw (no alchemy), a longbow will outperform an otherwise identical Daedric bow in terms of dps at full draw. Using Alchemy to increase smithing and enchanting only increases the gap. The daedric bow WILL, however, always have a more powerful single shot.

Needless to say, I think the light bow vs heavy bow pros-cons chart should be reinstated.— Unsigned comment by 90.227.80.118 (talk) on 28 March 2012

ok so cheaper bows stagger more, but better bows still always have equal or better dps. 50.99.131.84

With everything maxed (including +160% archery and 100% smithing from gear), but no alchemy loop or restoration loop, Daedric bow should land at around 382 dps. Longbow will have 370 dps +more stagger. Nordic Hero bow will have 386 dps +more stagger.

With max Archery, smithing (+100% from gear) and enchantment, but no help from potions or +archery gear, Daedric bow should land at around 144 dps. Longbow will have 138 dps +more stagger. Nordic Hero bow will have 145 dps +more stagger.

If we ignore the Nordic Hero Bow, heavier bows always have more dps. Nordic Hero bow is clearly overpowered. :P— Unsigned comment by 90.227.80.118 (talk) on 11 April 2012

you are still forgetting you can do half draws for slower weapons, better bows ALWAYS have better dps, doesn't matter how you calculator it.50.99.131.84 04:48, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

With all relevant enchantment and destruction perks, you can enchant a bow with 70 fire damage + 70 frost damage per hit, so if you want to do maxiumum damage and still stagger your opponent, you have to use fast bows. 62.178.1.217 14:27, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Power Shot Issues

I'm hoping that someone else on here can test this out for me because I can't find any specific references to this issue on the site. According to the in-game description, Power Shot causes 'arrows [to] stagger all but the largest opponents 50% of the time'. I don't know about anyone else, but for me this definitely is NOT the case. I would assume that 'all but the largest opponents' includes the likes of Giants, Mammoths, Dragons, etc, leaving any regular-sized enemy - bandits, Forsworn, mages, most animals/creatures - susceptible to the effect. 50% works out to roughly half of your shots staggering those enemies, however; if I manage to get ONE single stagger during any given fight I am extremely lucky.

I took the Power Shot perk at level 15 as soon as my Archery skill hit 50. I am currently level 44, using a Glass Bow (Legendary) enchanted with Fire Damage and Ebony Arrows, with an Archery skill of 93; I have all 5 ranks of Overdraw, rank 1 of Critical Shot, Hunter's Discipline, Ranger, Eagle Eye, rank 1 of Steady Hand, and Quick Shot. When I played a mage character on my first playthrough, the Impact perk in the Destruction tree lived up to its description and genuinely staggered enemies virtually every time the conditions were met. A friend of mine, also playing a stealth/archer character, has said that, despite taking the Power Shot perk as well, he also very rarely staggers any opponents.

I'm playing on PS3, so I have no way of checking the Construction/Creation Kit or going 'behind-the-scenes' to check things out - I don't know if I am doing something wrong, if I need to be a certain level or have a certain level/quality of gear, whether it's the enemies I'm fighting, or what. As an example: I have just spent over 90 minutes playing the game. I fought my way through Bilegulch Mine, on to Lost Valley Redoubt and up to Bard's Leap Summit. Despite using my Archery exclusively, and fighting several dozen 'normal-sized' opponents (Forsworn, Hagravens, bandits), I did not get one single stagger on any of them.

I would very much appreciate it if someone here would take a good look at the exact mechanics governing this perk/ability, and find out exactly what is going on, because it really is ruining my enjoyment of using the Archey skill. Thanks. — Unsigned comment by Shadowyn77 (talk • contribs)

only works for a FULL draw, it's not a full draw if the arrow bounces and won't stick 50.99.131.84 12:33, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah it works just about half the time for me and I always fully draw the bow. In fact, I'm not sure what the "biggest opponents" are as I'm able to stagger dragons frequently and obviously with the perk. I can't remember if it has ever worked on giants or mammoths, but they are... smaller... than dragons. GrogGrogGrog 18:15, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Hunter's Discipline

What exactly does this perk do? "Recover twice as many arrows from corpses"... how? I've had this perk for a few days now, and I see no difference in the arrows looted from corpses. I did, however, notice an increase in arrow drops from already dead mobs (most noticeably in Dwarven Centurions, which usually have 4-5 arrows with them, and now drop up to 10). Is this all that perk does? If so, can it be considered just a perkpoint-sink on the way to Ranger or Bullseye? WooShell 12:08, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

it does exactly what it says. With the perk higher percentage of arrows are left on the corpse for you to loot back. Nothing to do with how much arrows Centurions drop. 50.99.131.84 04:50, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Maximum Effective Range

I'm surprised that there seems to be no discussion of the maximum effective range of arrows. Has nobody noticed that arrows tend to disappear after a certain distance? Particularly noticeable when shooting at mammoths.

If you fire at a mammoth at the maximum distance you can see the animal, the arrow will fly right through it by the time it arrives. You can actually watch the arrow pass through the animal without touching it. Varus2319 23:42, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The answer is already in the article. There's an ini setting that can be changed to correct this--see the bottom of the article. --Evil4Zerggin 22:14, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Infinite-Melee with a Bow?

I just found out that you can melee with a bow, quickly press "Crouch" twice, and the character will auto-attack again, using stamina. However, if the player runs out of stamina, they will continue to keep thrusting. This can be a potentially game-breaking new bug making bow characters reliable melee fighters as well. (Tested with a Epic Ebony Bow and 66 Archery on Master difficulty) --RandomPlayer268 20:39, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Hate to disappoint, but what your character is actually doing is blocking and 'shield bashing' with their bow. --Gaebrial 10:33, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

recoil?

this page says archery has 3 stages, nock draw and recoil? Never noticed any recoil. — Unsigned comment by 50.99.131.84 (talk) at 01:01 on 7 April 2012

There is small amount of time before you can redraw the bow, so not technically a recoil, just a delay. The Silencer has spoken 01:08, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

well it's extremely misleading, i suggest we change to to 'cool down'? perhaps 'rest'? any better ideas? 50.99.131.84

Although the term recoil does not describe what actually happens, it is the correct term for what should happen. It was probably extremely hard to implement the vibration of the string, and so they forced a small delay to simulate the recoil happening. If you can think of a better descriptive term for what happens/what should happen then feel free to change the article. The Silencer has spoken 19:16, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

im no pro archer but my high school gym class made us learn it for a couple of weeks. Bows don't have recoils.50.99.131.84 04:51, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Bows do have recoil, but most people will not feel the effect of the recoil because of their shooting style. If your school has Olympic Style bows then that may very well be your reason. I know the Canadian Olympic Archer who went to Beijing for the Olympics (came in 15th but) and the bow he uses has recoil like its no tomorrow(that being said the School Police Officer couldn't even budge the string on a pull back). I haven't found much recoil on bows until I hit maybe 75Lb draw weight. If your using Archery Equipment such as a Bow Sling, they also reduce recoil significantly. All of that assumes you are shooting "Proper" (at least from what I've been told, as I'm instinctive rather then Olympic style shooting)

(←) Speaking as someone who has used "proper" bows during re-enactments, they do have recoil. You cannot shoot, reload, shoot, the bow moves upwards a degree depending on the weight pullback, and the string vibrates, thus recoil. The Silencer has spoken^Talk 00:14, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Perpetuating the Myth of Location Based Damage Bonus

Is there a compelling reason to do this in the Notes section to this article? I did a lot of testing on this using console commands and there is no difference based on the location where the arrow hits. The claims to the contrary were purely anecdotal, probably claimed by console players or players who never actually used reliable methods to test their claim (I've personally seen console players post such claims about measuring damage based only on visual perception of the health bar which renders such statements incredulous). It's somewhat telling that in the months since I posted a reliable methodology and my findings, not a single contributor has posted contrary results under the same conditions. Further, since we know that critical damage multipliers work off of the base damage of a weapon it wouldn't account for double damage claim. Is there any actual data to give credence to that particular speculation and, if not, why does it merit being on the main page? It would be better to keep it on the discussion page, and the note about double damage based on location has no place at all in a main article page. It's been debunked.--DagmarH 01:25, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

One way or the other, "maybe" isn't a word we usually like to see in Notes sections. Given the lack of solid evidence to date, I'm removing it for now. – Robin Hood↝talk 04:18, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

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