Template talk:Lore Appendices

Empire of the Nords

I'm pretty sure that Tamrielic Empires is meant to exclusively include those based out of Cyrodiil, following the line of the original Ayleid Empire. My reasoning for this is the header link destination, Tamrielic Emperors, which follows this rule, as confirmed in its talk page. By this, the Nordic Empire would not be included. However, I haven't removed it because I think that there should be a change here in the title. Either we should include all empires that have existed on Tamriel - which would include Darloc Brae Moon-Empire in addition to the Nordic Empire and possibly more, or we could change the name to something akin to Cyrodilic Empires, which is less impactful but more accurate to the point. Both of these solutions were proposed to some extent on the Tamrielic Emperors talk page but neither gained traction. Despite this, I think the issue here is relevant enough to warrant some action. Mindtrait0r (talk) 16:36, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't really make sense to conflate "Tamrielic Empires" with "Cyrodiilic Empires". I know the original intent of this section was for only Empires in the lineage of Cyrodiil, but that's too limiting and neglects other important empires, such are the Nords. I think using the term "Tamrielic Empires" to refer to any Empire in Tamriel makes most sense. That would mean Lore:Tamrielic Emperors should be renamed to "Lore:Cyrodiilic Emperors" - and if we really want to distinguish the Cyrodiilic ones separately in the infobox we can just move them to another row - but personally I think its fine as is.--Jimeee (talk) 17:04, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

What merits inclusion on this template?

I think that only pages with an Appendices trail should be on this navbox. This would mean that Cuisine, Alcoholic Beverages, Cheese, Drugs, Sex, Music, Nirn, and Aurbis should be removed (possibly more) as they are not Appendices, rather being Cuisine, Recreation, and Places respectively per the Lorespaces listed on Lore:Main Page.

KevinM on the other hand thinks that since this pages fall under the section names on the navbox, they merit inclusion.

Further opinions are appreciated so we can gain a consensus here. Mindtrait0r (talk) 05:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm unsure about the Empires and Kingdoms list here. To me, this should be split off to a separate navbox. As you say, Lore:Farrun is a place page, not an appendix. —⁠Legoless (talk) 07:54, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Necessarily, the Appendix by definition is anything that isn't something else. Empires and Events probably shouldn't be in the Appendix at all, because they're categorized under History. Wars could probably be moved into a subsection of History as well. Magical Phenomena might not need to be there because we already have a section for Magic. (Alternatively, if we want to keep phenomena separate from types of magic, we could merge Phenomena, Metaphysics and Time into a single "Arcana and Metaphysics" appendix so there are fewer sections and better grouping.)

Conversely, Recreation could probably be added to the Culture and Tradition appendix because it doesn't have enough info to exist by itself. --Enodoc (talk) 10:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Having a more detailed look, I think we should probably reset the Appendices as follows:

• Arcana and Metaphysics (to include Magical Phenomena, Metaphysics, Time)
• Culture and Tradition (to also include Symbols, Transportation, Other)
• Law and Politics
• Rituals and Prophecies

Everything not listed here should necessarily fit in one of the main sections.

We also need to restore Lore:Appendices as a proper list; at the moment it redirects to the Appendices section at the bottom of Lore:Main Page, which should be a transclusion of the Appendices page itself, but is currently a section with no links at all.

--Enodoc (talk) 11:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

My general thought of what went in that section on Lore:Main Page (and thus in this template) was anything that didn't have any other larger category. Relatedly, anything that reached a certain size would be moved into its own more unique categorization. I'm not sure why something like kingdoms/empires are here, as that seems to be more appropriate with a navbox within the scope of the Lore:Places section if anything. Events and wars should also be moved under history (wars should also all be expanded into their own pages wherever possible, but that's a much bigger task). --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 12:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with all statements made above, except for Recreation being merged with Appendices - that, I'm neutral on. I support Enodoc's restructuring and requested restoration of the appendices lorepage as a list. Mindtrait0r (talk) 03:21, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I really think symbols should get a subsection in tradtiom and culture atleast rather than mixed in with the rest of them as it currently. They feel kinda out of place.Tarponpet (talk) 03:23, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I grouped the Symbols; does that work better? Pending further discussion I also plan to restore Recreation to that section, at least for now, as I maintain it still appears out of place as a single article rather than a section on the main page. --Enodoc (talk) 15:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

(←) I disagree with merging Recreation back into the appendices. It has been listed on Lore:Main Page since 2021 without issue, and if it is there, it should not be here. If anything, we should be working to move things out of appendices.

Recreation is not a single article. Under it are several board/card game pages (several more of which could get pages), Music (with a rather large subsection about instruments and songs), Drugs (likewise, alcoholic beverages and related pages), Sex, a potential page on Theater, and I'm sure more to come.

All this stuff cannot fit as a single row in the appendices. —Dillonn241 (talk) 19:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Follow-up proposal: I have a simple solution to the problem of "Music has non-recreational aspects, Sex isn't just recreation" problem. Let's rename Recreation (yet again) to Lore:Activities.

This definitely solves the problem for those two pages: Music is an activity whether on the performer's part or the listener's. Sex is an activity whether for recreation or for reproduction. And obviously games, sports, theater, and drug use are activities. In addition, we can include the following pages under Lore:Activities:

• Ancestor Worship
• Claw-Dances (list under a Martial Arts section and document others)
• Cosmetics
• Holidays
• Hygiene
• Piracy (and an eventual Smuggling page; perhaps other crimes, too)
• Slavery
• Smithing

Other possibilities: Archeology, Art (e.g., Painting), Reading, Writing, Hunting, Fishing, Beekeeping, Gardening, etc.

That would leave these items under the appendices, since they aren't activities:

• Calendar
• Currency
• Disease
• Marriage (arguable, but I'd say it's more of a status than anything)
• Statues
• Way of the Voice
• Weapons
• Symbols section
• Transportation section (these are more about modes of transportation than the activity of Traveling; perhaps that could be a separate activity page)

—Dillonn241 (talk) 20:32, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I do like this but I feel it is too inclusive/unintuitive. At a glance, I wouldn't consider hygiene and cosmetics as activies. Mindtrait0r (talk) 20:58, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I could agree with you on Hygiene and Cosmetics. I was sort of going for Wikipedia's list of hobbies. —Dillonn241 (talk) 21:08, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Two other things worth noting, if Ancestor Worship is included I would include Way of the Voice too, their both traditions/ideologies imo. Also, on UESPWiki talk:Lore I proposed making Astronomy its own space on the Main Page outside the Appendices and while Legoless agreed, no other input was given so I didn't end up making the change. With this whole cleanup of the Appendices, I figure we should probably decide whether or not that's a good idea, too Mindtrait0r (talk) 21:29, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, we could alternatively take the idea of the Activities proposal and just turn the Recreation page itself into a Culture page, which then covers everything in the section automatically (and hopefully intuitively). --Enodoc (talk) 23:19, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

I think if Culture was used, it would have to consume the Culture category and maybe Linguistics (but I wouldn't have a problem with that one remaining separate). However, I do think that it nicely encapsulates a lot of the Appendices pages and largely circumvents the blurred category boundaries with Lore:Sex and such (though a minor issue would remain in the form of where the trail would go - Culture or Culture: Recreation?). I support the rework, though I don't think Transportation would belong in it. Mindtrait0r (talk) 00:04, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

On which note, Culture could potentially eat up (pun intended) Cuisine as well. And maybe also Death. --Enodoc (talk) 01:15, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

(←) Oops, I meant to say Cuisine instead of saying Culture twice. My mistake. But yeah, agreed. Cuisine is definitely under the umbrella of culture and Death and Linguistics I'd say are borderline, but I'd err on the side of keeping them separate, as pages under the Death category don't fit as well into Culture, including Lifespan, and certain Linguistics pages are fairly exempt from culture as well, such as Elder Alphabet. Mindtrait0r (talk) 01:34, 20 October 2024 (UTC)