Oblivion talk:Spell Making/Archive 1

This is an archive of past Oblivion talk:Spell Making discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Corrected wrong information

I corrected some wrong information concerning boosting of the Armorer skill, and thus removed the following now unneccesary statements:

Actually, the master skill perk of armorer does seem to be in game. I haven't broken a hammer yet when boosted to 100+ armorer skill. I think the chance of using up a repair hammer is based on your skill, and once that skill gets to 100 you have a zero chance of failure.

Note to above: In that case, it's the level that prevents you to breaking the hammer, not the perk. You still can't fix magical weapons if your original skill level is below Journeyman.

--MiSP 18:11, 18 April 2006 (EDT)

About the "Open Very Hard Lock" spell

Open Very Hard Lock
*Open Very Hard Lock in 10 ft on Target.

I don't know about you, but I couldn't find this spell anywhere.
If it is available, there is a good chance that it costs more to train it than to create it. Very handy for getting places that you shouldn't!
Costs 138 gold (for me, update if this is inconsistent to approx value).
Takes about 2x the magicka as Open Hard Lock.

Request: What skill level does this spell require? And why 10 ft, does this spell really need an area? Also, it would be 2/3 cheaper with Touch instead of Target (you need to be in touch range of doors/containers to open them anyway).

If you find my arguments useful, please update your spell. If not, please tell me why you made it the way you did. =) --MiSP 07:34, 19 April 2006 (EDT)

I don't think there is an Open Very Hard spell in the game. I played with the spellmaker, and the basic spell requires a 75 Alteration, but I didn't try putting the 10 ft radius on it, so I don't know if that changes it. --Quillan 08:27, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

I've checked this now, and it seems like you can't choose between Touch and Target (it's locked at Target). I'll remove the 10 ft radius and update the spell. Oh and by the way, the cost of making spells varies depending on your skill in the respective magic school. --MiSP 10:28, 19 April 2006 (EDT)

Spells which require Fortify Skill not possible?

I notice in the "Useful Spells" section, several suggestions that rely on Fortifying a skill, e.g. Fortify Security. As far as I know (and can find in the CS) no Fortify Skill spells are available for purchase. The effect exists (as part of some Powers and enchantments, for example) but is not implemented in spell form.

Is it possible to use effects gained as powers as part of spellmaking? If so, I think it needs to be noted when suggesting spells that rely on it. --Goit 23:31, 22 April 2006 (EDT)

Doh! Yes, I understand. Going to put a clarification in case any one else is as stupid as I am. --Goit 23:43, 22 April 2006 (EDT)

It seems like you can use spell effects from powers you have (my Wood Elf can create Command Creature spells). Concerning the Fortify spells, I think I know the solution. It has been said that if you wear enchanted armor/clothing/etc, you can use those effects when creating spells. Those effects are listet in the rightmost tab of the magic menu. I think you can use all those effects listed there, including effects gained from birthsigns, etc. --MiSP 09:25, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

I haven't been paying that close attention to it, but I am on my third character to gain access to Arcane University right now, and all three have been able to make Fortify Skill spells. I don't recall where the ability comes from, but I have most definitely been able to make them. Quillan 09:42, 24 April 2006 (EDT)

I don't remember either, but just made fortify acrobatics, mercantile, armourer, speechcraft, security, alchemy and whatever I don't remember yet 100 points for 2-4 seconds (speechcraft, mercantile longer to be able to cast both and charm yet) and they work just fine (don't give you the master perks though).

My experience: Armor with effects is not enough (My Breton is standing at an Altar of Spellmaking right now with my Dark Brotherhood armor, but no Fortify Skill spell is available). However, my Redguard was able to make a Fortify Skill spell (I have not pinpointed why for certain, but I have a pretty good guess: Gray Prince's Training). Arixx 17:24, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

Vampirism gives access to both Fortify Skill and Fortify Attribute. I would guess Grey Prince training would give F:S as well.

This is indeed true! I had no Fortify Skill effect able in spell making even while I had Fortify Athletics boots. However, I got Fortify Skill after completing Gray Prince’s quest. I should correct the article about this. User MXI 04:15, 29 April 2006 (EDT)

Touching Jone Stone doomstone as soon as you have 10 fame, grants you Jone's Shadow which includes a Fortify Sneak spell. sziszko 15:17, 23 May 2006 (CET)

The easiest way to Unlock early in the game would be to cast a minion and then use ABSORB SKILL to absorb it from your minion. you can get around 50 pts like that for 2 secs. You will not max but it will be sufficient to open the majority of locks.

I'm not quite sure what the above statement has to do with the topic, however the other easy way to get this effect is to aquire the Skeleton Key from the Nocturnal Daedra Quest.Grandmaster z0b 18:28, 6 February 2007 (EST)

FYI, since this discussion, a complete list of ways to obtain Fortify Skill was created at Fortify Skill. --Nephele 22:40, 6 February 2007 (EST)

First Person Style

MiSP, don’t you think, that putting user name in article page is a bad manner? Read Attribution and Dates part of UESPWiki:Style Guide. Also I guess articles should be written in third person, shouldn’t they? User MXI 06:56, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

Yeah, you may be right. I'm quite new to this whole wiki thing, so I'm just trying to pick up from other articles. Sorry, I'll remove it now. :) --MiSP 07:44, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

You still make a lot of work, keep it on! I can fix all style/formatting things, have a bit of experience with Wikipedia. User MXI 08:25, 28 April 2006 (EDT)

Some Spells Doesn't Work!?

MiSP, I have checked some more things. First, are you sure that “Arrow of Penetrating Fire/Ice/Shock” is working as it suppose to work? It seems that Weakness spell effect doesn’t work when combined with damage. For instance, I tried “Fire 100” and “Weakness to Fire 100% for 5 secs + Fire 100” spells. They do the same damage! Second, I failed to create “Fence” spell — the game didn’t allow me to combine two Fortify Skill effects in one spell. User MXI 17:08, 29 April 2006 (EDT)

First off, the Arrow spell isn't mine, so I don't know a whit about that, sorry. Secondly, the Fence spell is not two Fortify Skill effects, but rather one Fortify Skill (Mercantile) and one Fortify Attribute (Personality). ;-) --MiSP 18:55, 29 April 2006 (EDT)

And by the way, I've heard that if you want to combine weakness effects and damage effects, you must put the weakness effect first. Can someone confirm whether this is true? --MiSP 19:02, 29 April 2006 (EDT)

Weakness to X, like Soul Trap, must come before the damage effects in the list, and must last 1 second longer than the rest of the effects (here, the damage), otherwise the game does not apply them.

Oh! I see now that this spell was added by Agifem. However I still doubt it works. “Fire Damage 100 pts for 1 sec” and “Weakness to fire 100% for 2 secs + Fire Damage 100 pts for 1 sec” still doing the same damage as I tested. And this is against a Dark Elf, who has fire resistance. Moreover, if I cast “Weakness to Fire 100% for 10 secs” and “Fire Damage 100” separately, I am doing double damage! User MXI 02:38, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

That's correct, for Weakness to X effects to take effect, they must exist before the spell hits the target. For example, if you have your spell add Weakness to Fire for 10sec and Fire Damage, if you hit them a second time before 10sec have expired, you will get the bonus from Weakness. Once you take this reasoning further, you will realize that Weakness to Magicka affects ALL magical effects cast on the target, including Weakness to Magicka. Hence the challenge-ruining consequences of the Breach1/Breach2 spell pair I added. --Thehankerchief 03:08, 3 May 2006 (EDT)

The order of effects in a spell is important, especially when casting the same spell repeatedly. A "Weakness to Fire 100% 5 sec, Fire Damage 100pts" spell will always do a 100 points fire damage. A "Fire Damage 100 pts, Weakness to Fire 100% 5 sec" will do 100 points on the first cast and 200 points on the second and subsequent casts (assuming they are made within the 5 second weakness window.) It appears the game replaces the individual effects in the order they appear in the spell when it is cast a second time, as opposed to completely removing all the effects than putting the new ones on. Also any effect can affect the effect which is replacing it. That means a "Fire Damage 10pts, Weakness to Fire 100%, Weakness to Magic 100%" will do 10 damage on the first cast, 40 on the second, 90 on the third, 160 on the fourth and so on. The same spell with Weakness to Magic as the first effect will not stack. Or if the two weakness are swapped in position the damage will be 10, 40, 60, 80, 100... Tedrek 12:22, 30 September 2006 (EDT)

Resist Fire/Frost/Shock?

Is there any way to obtain these effects? They are enabled for spellmaking and enchantment, but it seems that no spell vendors provide spells that use them. I know that you can obtain Resist Frost from the Lord Doomstone's power, but does this work? --Trithemius 09:10, 4 May 2006 (EDT)

Yes I cannot find them too, also Damage Attribute/Skill. So I use Fire/Shock/Cold Shield and Absorb Attribute/Skill respectively. User MXI 10:18, 4 May 2006 (EDT)

Does the F/F/S Shield effect provide resistance to the element? Or does it to that "flavour" damage to people who hit the target in melee? Or both? --Trithemius 07:45, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

I don't think Shield spells deal damage. --MiSP 14:33, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

Fire/Frost/Shock Sheilds have two effects. First, they up armor rating by the magnitude (e.g. Shield). Second, they reduce the damage from Fire/Frost/Shock effects by their magnitude. This, in almost every case, makes them better than both Shield and Resist Element, as Fire Shield costs the same as Just Shield, and a 10 point Fire Sheild protects from fire better than 10 point Resist Fire unless the damage does more than 100 points in 1 second. As the magnitude increases, Fire/Frost/Shock become more noticably better than their single-effect alternatives.

It looks like the only way to get these resists are from racial or birthstone abilities. My Breton was able to make Resist Magicka items and spells. I haven't checked specifically, but I have a dark elf I expect will be able to make Resist Fire. Quillan^Talk 15:20, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

Cheap Destruction

Having read your info on spell crafting for destruction spells, I think I could add a couple of points. First off, it's a lot cheaper to combine various elemental damage effects together than use just one of them. A fire damage spell for 20pts, 1 sec, target costs 10 magicka (w/ maxed destruction), but fire and frost for 10 pts each, 1 sec on target costs only 8. I admit, who is gonna grumble about two lousy points of magicka, but as soon as you start increasing the magnitudes the benfit is a lot clearer. Next, rather than increasing the ammount of damage a spell does, it is a lot cheaper to instead increase the opponents vulnerability to it. A spell that does 10 pts fire damage and weakness to fire 100% should in theory do 20pts of damage (having played a few Altmer chars, I know that those weaknesses really do work!), and cost only 5-6pts. Much more economical. Lastly, my best tactic is to use drain health. Casting a drain health of magnitude 100 for 3 secs costs so little (27 pts) where as fire dmg for the same period costs loads (274 pts!). The effect on the target for the 3 second duration is not the same, however, the drain effect only ever drains 100pts and after the three seconds, the health is restored - The fire effect will do 300pts of damage in total. That is not the issue. For just 27pts, you've hacked 100 health of your opponent, add to that a couple of weaknesses and elemental effects and you're away. The health only returns to the opponent after the spell effect is over and provided they are still alive! If they only have 120 health and your spell drains 100 of that, then as above does 20pts of damage (fire 10, weakness 100%), the opponent is dead for the cost of only 33pts. If they have 121 health, after the spell is completely resolved they'll go back to 101 health (drain health is temporary, remember) and still try and kill you, but that's the gamble. A spell that mixes all the elemental effects and weaknesses (you can have as many parts to one spell as you need, provided you have the skill) and drains 100 health too will do about 340 damage on touch for only 77pts of magicka. Similar spells with on target cost about 92pts. In short, if they don't have magicka resistance of some kind - they will die, and cheaply too. I dunno, but there's something satisfying about sending the ass-kicking Umbra flying with just a wave of your hand...

What about writing down said spell, with values, durations, skill requirement etc? I'd be interested :) --Vook 09:59, 15 May 2006 (EDT)

No problems... It's on touch, weakness 100% to fire, frost, shock and magicka, drain health 100 for 2 secs, 20pts fire, 15ft, 2secs, 20pts for 2 secs on both shock and frost - skill 110 (completed all deadric quests and chose magic path in the Infinium), cost 77pts. Should do about 340 dmg depending on immunities and resistances.

A better choice maybe weakness to all four 100% for 2sec, drain 100pts for 2secs and 10pts of the three elements for 1sec. You only need a skill of 50 and it costs just 25pts with my char. Should do about 160pts of damage.

Headshot/Backstab: Why Fortify Luck?

Quote:

Headshot

[ Increase sneak attack damage with bows ]

*Fortify Luck 25pts for 5sec

*Fortify Marksman 50pts for 5sec

Cast before shooting the arrow in sneak mode, helps a lot until you get to higher skill levels.

Backstab

[ Increase sneak attack damage with blades ]

*Fortify Luck 25pts for 5sec

*Fortify Blade 50pts for 5sec

Cast before striking in sneak mode, helps a lot until you get to higher skill levels.

Why Fortify Luck? Does it add more damage? If it does, is it enough to be worth adding? --MiSP 07:17, 25 May 2006 (EDT)

One luck point above 50 adds 0.4 skill points to each skill you use (and one below, drains), so the spell actually fortifies given skills by 60 instead of 50. Fortify Attribute 25 may cost less than jump from Fortify Skill 50 to 60, as costs of spells grow exponentially with power - for example: Fire Damage 10 + Frost Damage 10 + Shock Damage 10 + Damage Health 10 will cost less than Fire Damage 40, or probably even Fire Damage 30. So after certain treshold fortifying luck together with skill will be more efficient than fortifying the skill alone, though I'm not sure where the treshold in this case is.--Vook 11:20, 25 May 2006 (EDT)

Drain vs. Damage vs. Absorb

I moved the contents of this discussion over to the Magical Effects talk page... there's a related section on that page, so it seems a better place to collect everyone's thoughts.--Nephele 00:35, 30 June 2006 (EDT)

Additional Information

some people are mind-bogglingly intelligent. like this guy. Inthexis provides a game-breakingly powerful understanding of oblivion magic.

Hmm, could we merge that into this page? (With his permission, of course.) Perhaps the Magic Overview page, here or something? --MiSP 04:46, 27 May 2006 (EDT)

Magicka cost of a spell and Equation Error

(I combined these two sections and moved them to the end of the discussion: these cover the same topic and it should not be contentious.)

• I took out this section because it's wrong. Posting here if anyone wants to salvage anything:--Goit 05:39, 17 April 2006 (EDT)

Also note that magicka cost of a spell increases exponentially with spell duration and strength. (restore health 20 may cost 20 magicka, restore health 80 will cost over 200). This means that to maximize total power of a spell, it is desirable to make it with strength and duration numbers similar - restore health 6 for 6 sec will be cheaper in means of magicka than restore health 3 for 12 sec or restore health 36 for 1 sec.

Confirming that spell cost grows linearly with duration. I looked at 2 different spell effects and at least two 10x-duration increases for touch and target spells. In all cases, increasing duration by 10x also increased cost by 10x (rounding aside). Should we move this part of the discussion to the bottom? (Since is not likely to be contentious.) --Tennessee Ernie Ford 01:30, 23 June 2006 (EDT)

• Base/10 * ( Magnitude ^ 1.28 ) * Duration * max( 1.0, Area * .15 )

Duration cost isn't linear, just like Magnitude. A spell for 20s will cost more than twice cost of spell for 10s. (but duration is cheaper than magnitude, a spell of magnitude 5 for 50s will cost less than magnitude 50 for 5s.) (unattributed)

The equation is correct as stated, you may consult TESCS: Create a spell, add a fire effect. Set duration first to 100, then to 1000. The cost will increase from 75 to 750. Should you have a counterexample, I invite you to share it. --Thehankerchief 03:15, 3 May 2006 (EDT)

Deleted Spell

Based on the above comments (Some Spells Doesn't Work!?) it seems that this spell doesn't really work as advertised, so I'm removing it from the "Useful Spells to Create" list.

Arrow of Penetrating Fire/Ice/Shock

• Damage Fire/Ice/Shock 9 points for 3 seconds on target.
• Weakness to Fire/Ice/Shock 50 points for 3 seconds on target.
• Requires Destruction skill of 25

For only 25 Destruction required, you have a destruction spell that affects anyone, even fire/ice/shock immune monsters, and that is significantly more powerful than the spells you can buy. The downside is a spell that requires more magicka (about 40 at 25 destruction) than weaker spells. The choice of the element you place on the spell is all yours. You may use Shock, since shock immunity is rather rare.

Note - Storm Atronachs are immune to shock, but you won't see any of those until you get to about level 20. Shock damage is more expensive to cast than fire or frost damage, though.

--Nephele 22:53, 6 July 2006 (EDT)

This spell would see the benefits if it was chain cast, see my reply in Some spells don't work!?. Tedrek 12:22, 30 September 2006 (EDT)

Acquiring Spell Effects

Has anyone ever been able to get a spell effect to appear at the spell making altar by wearing an enchanted item? I've tried several (drain attribute, resist normal weapons, resist fire; there's probably more, I just haven't been keeping track) and never had any luck. Is there any chance this is something that was possible in Morrowind but isn't possible in Oblivion? If it is possible, I think it would be worthwhile to document which ones do work and which ones do not work. --Nephele 23:08, 24 July 2006 (EDT)

I have removed the offending paragraph. Firstly because it was poorly constructed. It leads with the sentence:

*"Sometimes, the game will also recognize effects from enchanted items that you own."

then continues with a parenthetical example in which the statement is untrue:

*"(notably, this does not work for Drain Attribute effects)."

There follow no examples in which the statement is true. Secondly (in the list but not in importance) it is completely false. I equipped every purchased or found item in my inventory that contained an effect not in my spell list. Nothing. I created a new item with a Sigil Stone with the same lack of results. Perhaps this was a feature of Morrowind or perhaps it was wishful thinking. Either way this myth has been busted.--OGRastamon 21:55, 22 November 2006 (EST)

Cast Spells You Are not Skilled Enough to do

This comment is copied from the Glitches page, and was originally written by GZUS KRYST.

Lets say you are a master of Illusion but your Destruction skill is low, (you're like a novice), if you go and make a spell, where one you make is like a long paralysis, the next spell you add can be nearly any amount of Destruction magic! So, right now, I'm a journeyman of Destruction, but a master of Illusion, and I just made a spell that does a 6 second paralysis and 100 shock damage! And I can cast it! Though there are complications:

I've found out in order for this to work, the Illusion spell has to be somehow "more powerful" then the Destruction spell. For example, though it would take a 6 second paralysis to cover up for 100 shock damage, it would take a 9 second paralysis to cover up for 100 shock, 100 fire and 100 frost damage. I do not believe there is anyway to calculate this, you would just have to try different paralysis times.

Note that such a dual-school spell counts only in its primary school in terms of skill practice. Casting this spell will NOT help you increase your Destruction skill at all. It will only increase your Illusion skill. (Provided of course that you haven't already mastered it, in which case it will not increase anything.)

I just spent time figuring out the details of multi-effect spells (which have now been added to the Spell Making page, including the example here of paralyze+fire damage), and wanted to clarify a few points.

• It is possible to calculate how these effects combine, as spelled out in the example at Oblivion:Spell_Making#Spell Costs; trial and error is not necessary
• My results are in disagreement on the paralyze+shock damage+fire damage+frost damage spell. At the spellmaking altar, I can do 100 magnitude on all three damage spells, and 6 second paralyze is still strong enough to make the spell count as an illusion spell. Doing the numbers:
  • Frost Damage 100 points on touch = 268 magicka
  • Shock Damage 100 points on touch = 283 magicka
  • Fire Damage 100 points on touch = 272 magicka
  • Paralyze 6 seconds on touch = 285 magicka: this is still the single most expensive effect

It seems likely that you did this case with the three damage spells being on target effects, and the paralyze spell being on touch (in which case a 9 second paralyze would indeed be necessary, but it has nothing to do with adding extra damage spells).

--Nephele 00:05, 10 August 2006 (EDT)

Chromatic shield not cheaper

While in general multiple low magnitude effects are cheaper than one large, the general shield spell is almost always cheaper than any of the elemental shields. Using the chromatic shield spell example, a shield of 40% is cheaper than that one listed. If all you are after is a strong shield, then you are better off using a single large shield spell, and maybe some 3pt elementals. Only if you want the elemental defense should you use them, as they are more expensive, and if you did need say a fire shield, then you wouldn't be using a frost shield, as the extra cost is wasted.

Death Knell Ultimate

Added a spell that I believe is pretty good. At the highest magnitude it can do 600pts damage and arounf 320pts damage at medium level destruction experience.

Let me know what you think.

--Genotype 13:52, 10 October 2006 (Western Australian Time)

Own template for custom spells?

I believe we should add a template for custom spells. It would make this page, at least the Useful spells to create section a lot better in terms of layout. The template should include:

• A title
• A tagline/short description
• Any number of effects (well, we could set a limit at 15, I doubt anyone will create spells with more effects than that) (is it possible to automatically link these to the Magic Effects page?)
• A description

It could also include the following:

• Patch notes (whether it only works with a specific version of Oblivion, if so then preferably also what the difference will be)
• Sub-title (some "spells" are actually split into two spells that are used together - the alternative would be to make two separate spells and name them Spell pt. 1 and Spell pt. 2)
• <insert your suggestions here>

Any thoughts on this?

--MiSP 15:06, 11 October 2006 (EDT)

Fortify Skill Spells

My apologies to the author(s) of this page. I'm beginning to feel like a bully. :p Nevertheless, I must question the validity of this statement:

*"becoming a Vampire. Vampirism gives access to both Fortify Skill and Fortify Attribute effects."

I have access to these spells but I cannot be sure whether it is my Vampirism or the fact that I have purchased minor fortify spells. What I can be sure of is that spell effects do not contribute to available spells. For example: use a scroll or potion of invisibility. You are now affected with invisibility but you will not find it available to you in spellmaking unless you already possess a spell. More wishful thinking I'm afraid. --OGRastamon 22:19, 22 November 2006 (EST)

Since I've been curious about this for a while, I just did some fairly thorough testing of acquiring spell effects. (Done by using the console to add individual spells, abilities, powers, etc. to a character who knows absolutely no spells, then checking to see what effects come up at the spellmaking altar) Conclusions:

• Vampirism does give access to spell effects, specifically Fortify Skill, Fortify Attribute, Resist Disease, Resist Paralysis, and Weakness to Fire. Those are just from the vampirism effects alone. The four spells you acquire as a vampire also give you Detect Life, Night-Eye, Demoralize, Silence, and Invisibility.
• You get full access to spell effects from the abilities/lesser powers/greater powers that you acquire from your race, from birthsigns, or from doomstones. For example:
  • An orc has access to Drain Attribute, Fortify Attribute, Fortify Fatigue, and Fortify Health (all from the Orc Berserk greater power)
  • A high elf has access to Resist Disease, Fortify Magicka, Weakness to Fire, Weakness to Frost,and Weakness to Shock (all from the racial abilities, weaknesses)
  • With the serpent birthsign you get access to Damage Health, Damage Fatigue, Cure Poison and Dispel (from the greater power)

On the other hand, a range of tests involving acquiring items provided access to absolutely no effects, including:

• Drinking potions
• Casting scroll spells upon myself
• Wearing enchanted items
• Equipping enchanted weapons

So I disagree with the first part of your statement, but agree with the second part of it. --Nephele 03:30, 27 November 2006 (EST)

Drain Attribute Spells

Hmmm, I am not an Orc nor have I completed the Orrery quest, yet I do possess the ability to create Drain Attribute spells despite having none in my spell list. I do however suffer from Drain Attribute effects and own Drain Attribute enchanted weapons which makes me question the validity of my last two posts. I'll keep investigating but even if I'm wrong the second paragraph is untrue.--OGRastamon 22:38, 22 November 2006 (EST)

Now you've got me really puzzled :) Especially given that the Drain Attribute effect is so difficult to acquire, I'm really curious what enabled it for you in this case. Any chance you could provide details on where exactly you're getting Drain Attribute effects from, and what the weapons are that you have? If I have some ideas where to look, I could do some more tests at my end. Thanks! --Nephele 03:38, 27 November 2006 (EST)

breach

i dont fully understand how the break works. do u just create a spell with weakness to cold and magic 100%, and then continuously casting them at an enemy? do the effects really stack? i thought they simply are replaced by the new effect.— Unsigned comment by Wtf (talk • contribs)

You need to create two spells with different names but the same effects. See Spell Stacking for a more detailed explanation of how these types of spells work. --Nephele 01:23, 16 January 2007 (EST)

Free Destruction Spells

Hunting Vampires is a hobby of mine, and I generally create characters that use the "Black and White" colleges of Destruction and Restoration. As an expert in both, I like to case spells that do Fire Damage and Absorb Magicka at the same time. With a luck of 100 and a Destruction and Restoration skill of around 80, my "Sacred Fire" spell is as follows.

Fire Damage: 45 pts for 1 sec on touch Absorb Magicka: 45 pts for 1 sec on touch Cost: 45 pts

You can only use it a maximum of three times in a row before the target runs out of magicka, but this takes out most vampires with just three hits. Not only doest this preserve magicka in case of an emergency, it also discourages the target from casting spells against you (I think). I imagine that a Master of Destruction and Restoration could make an even more powerful spell. The Absorb Magicka effect should be as weak as possible while still paying for the total cost.

WindStalker?

I really don't know if this spell is as appropriate as others on this page, it's simply a combination of effects that you can only make at very high levels, rather than a interesting trick or technique. I mean you could just as easily make a spell out of any combination of effects and put it in here which could lead to the page becoming swamped with variations of effects. Why this and not Fortify Acrobatics 100%, Fortify Speed 100%, Fortify Strength 100%, Fortify Blade 100% & Bound Sword 30 seconds? It would be a great spell but then someone else puts the same thing but replace Speed with Endurance, and Blade with Blunt etc. etc. Effects such as Drain Health 100 points for 1 second, or Charm 100 points for 1 second are really helpful as they are cheap and not obvious, but simply putting extremely high level spells that do everything doesn't seem to be as helpful. Grandmaster z0b 18:22, 6 February 2007 (EST) Grandmaster z0b

The spells section does need some serious cleanup, and I agree with your point that adding every spell that costs 600 magicka even at 100 skill wouldn't really make the list any more useful. If you'd like to try to create some overall guidelines for what types of spells to include on the page, that would be welcome... and if you'd like to tackle some of the cleanup, even better :) --Nephele 22:48, 6 February 2007 (EST)

Well what if we created sub categories for these spells and spell templates rather than specific spells? I was thinking:

• Useful low level spells - such as Drain Health or Charm 100 points for 1 seconds
• Useful mid level spells
• Useful high level spells
• Spells that substitute for skills - such as Fortify Security _points for 1 second
• Spell Stacking examples
• Offensive Spells
• Defensive Spells --Grandmaster z0b 22:16, 7 February 2007 (EST)

I personally use Windstalker quite often. And although it does require high levels and a magicka boost I disagree that that makes it any less of a useful spell. Pappasmurf 14:44, 8 February 2007 (EST)

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you about it being useful, but is it really notable enough to have on the UESP? I mean, if we include every possible good spell, the list will be huge. I think that instead of concentrating on powerful spells, we need to concentrate on spell effects, and talk about how they combine with one another. --Ratwar 15:00, 8 February 2007 (EST)

Perhaps then there should be guidelines as to what should and should not be put on the page? Pappasmurf 15:27, 8 February 2007 (EST)

To some extent, it's really not fair to single out this one spell for criticism; there are serious problems with at least a few of the other spells listed here. And I don't think it would be fair to just delete this one contribution; the entire section really should be tackled, applying some consistent standards to decide which spells to keep and which to delete. Your spell just happened to luck out and be the most recent example and therefore is the focus of discussion.

And given that dubious position of honor ;) I've ended up staring at it more closely than usual, leading me to realize that there are a couple of significant shortcomings with Windstalker. First, how do you manage to create a single spell that has two simultaneous fortify attribute effects (fortify speed and fortify luck? I know of no way to do that, and any listed spell should at least be possible to create. Second, the Fortify Blade component is definitely overkill (and may even be completely redundant). Increasing Blade skill past 100 does nothing, so you only need to push your blade skill to 100, not past 100. The Fortify Luck 100 component already provides an effective 40 point boost to Blade skill. There's a very good chance that by the time any character is strong enough to cast this spell, their blade skill is at 60, in which case the Fortify Luck alone would max out the blade skill. If not, a much weaker fortify blade effect would still be more than enough.

To build on the idea of establishing some criteria (and steal some of Ratwar's ideas), I'd propose as a starting point that each entry should:

• demonstrate a new application of a single spell effect
• or it should show a new way to synergistically combine multiple spell effects (i.e., there should be some demonstrated advantage to combining those effects in the same spell).

By those types of criteria, I would then argue that Windstalker doesn't qualify. The chameleon and fortify speed components don't interact in any way with the other effects; they could just as easily be cast separately (and many players may prefer to do that; by casting these as separate spells a few seconds apart, the magicka requirement would be much more manageable). A revised entry, with just the Bound Dagger, Fortify Luck and a weaker Fortify Blade effect would, however, qualify. --Nephele 15:35, 8 February 2007 (EST)

Firstly I would like to say that I had meant the multiple spell effects to be cast seperatly. Although I had forgotten to establish that in my description. And because of this I accept full responsibility for being an idiot. (This time anyway :P) I see now where you are coming from and you have my apologies. Thank you for taking the time to explain and I think that what you said about the demonstration of a new application of a spell effect should be posted somewhere on the page. = ) Because of this I have deleted Windstalker from the useful spells page. Pappasmurf 15:59, 8 February 2007 (EST)

I would suggest that the above criteria are a good start, I would add a third category that is less specific with exact effects however serves as a template. This is a way of cleaning up some spells that are essentially very similar but the details of exact effects are somewhat different. For example the spell I added Daedra Kill could be an example of a spell created specifically to target a creatures weakness, hence it would still be here however I would point out that for a Frost Atronarch I would exchange Frost damage for Fire, and add a link to the creatures page so that the reader could look at specific weaknesses themselves and create their own spells for any creature.

I also think that we should add a disclaimer that said something like; you may not be able to create many of these spells until higher levels, change specifics to suit your level. I have noticed many spells (including my own) state "change specifics to suit your level", which becomes tiresome if listed with almost every spell. Grandmaster z0b 20:39, 11 February 2007 (EST)

Looking at the list of suggested spells at the bottom, I'm almost starting to think that those should be moved onto a separate page entirely, like Oblivion:Suggested Spells or something. Really, it's now more than half the article, and most of it is poorly written, with 1st-person, non-formal language, etc. This page should be a how-to on making spells, not just some free-for-all list of spells you could create. Of course, there's always a danger this could turn into another Oblivion:Things To Do When You're Bored/TES4Mod:Mod Ideas/Oblivion:Gripes type page, but I think that it really doesn't make sense to have all that stuff taking up so much space on an otherwise strictly informative page. --TheRealLurlock ^Talk 10:27, 12 February 2007 (EST)

I agree that we should think about a new page, it would still need proper guidelines and a cleanup. Grandmaster z0b 00:32, 13 February 2007 (EST)

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