Lore talk:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Cyrodiil

On the "First Empire"

The "First Empire" in this document does not refer to the Alessian Empire, which didn't exist until Oblivion. The Alessian Order did, yes, but that is a different entity founded by Marukh in the name of Saint Alessia. The "First Empire" in PGE v1 refers to the First Empire of the Nords, which held land deep in Nibenay:

King Vrage the Gifted began the expansion that led to the First Empire of the Nords. Within a span of fifty years, Skyrim ruled all of northern Tamriel, including most of present-day High Rock, a deep stretch of the Nibenay Valley, and the whole of Morrowind.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Skyrim

Here, the Nibenese are the original tribes of the Nordic settlers in Cyrodiil:

Traditionally, the East is regarded as the region's soul: magnanimous, tolerant, and administrative. It was in the rain forests of the Nibenay Valley that the original Cyro-Nordic tribes, the Nibenese, learned a self-reliance that separated them culturally and economically from Skyrim. The Elven harassment of the First Empire gave rise to an elite form of support troop for the Valley armies, the battlemage.

Thus, the "First Empire" here refers to King Vrage's conquests, not to the not-yet-existent Alessian Empire. Moreover, "the First Empire" is used all throughout PGE v1 to refer explicitly to this entity.

The system of succession in the First Empire is worthy of note, as it proved in the end to be the Empire's undoing. By the early years of the First Empire, Skyrim was already divided into Holds, then ruled by a patchwork of clan-heads, kings, and councils (or moots), all of which paid fealty to the King of Skyrim.

In the days of the Conquest of Morrowind and the founding of the First Empire, the great Nord war chiefs - Derek the Tall, Jorg Helmbolg, Hoag Merkiller - were all Tongues. When they attacked a city, they needed no siege engines; the Tongues would form up in a wedge in front of the gatehouse, and draw in breath. When the leader let it out in a thu'um, the doors were blown in, and the axemen rushed into the city. Such were the men that forged the First Empire.

Once the capital of the First Empire, the palace of the Ysgramor dynasty still dominates the center of the Old City. Windhelm was sacked during the War of Succession, and again by the Akaviri army of Ada'Soon Dir-Kamal; the Palace of the Kings is one of the few First Empire buildings that remains.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Skyrim

King Vrage made the first priority of his Empire the liberation of his long-tormented kinsmen in High Rock. His initial onslaught took him as far as the Bjoulsae, but beyond that the First Empire never established a lasting presence; the crafty Elves were too strong in their magic, and many of the Bretons aided the Elves against their would-be liberators.

Although few buildings of any age survive, Bretons being unsentimental about their history, Daggerfall is of considerable antiquity, founded originally by the Nords as a coastal foothold during the heyday of the First Empire.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/High_Rock

Considering we have endured their offenses for two thousand years, we know surprisingly little about the Aldmeri. (Only Morrowind, under Skyrim domination during the First Empire, and open to travel and trade during most of the Common Era, is somewhat better known.).

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Aldmeri_Dominion

The Dark Elves appear in the written record in 1E416, during the War of Succession which destroyed the First Empire of the Nords: "And seeing that the Nords were divided, and weak, the Dunmer took counsel among themselves, and gathered together in their secret places, and plotted against the kinsmen of Borgas, and suddenly arose, and fell upon the Nords, and drove them from the land of Dunmereth with great slaughter." Thus ended the First Empire of men, at the hands of the Dark Elves.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Morrowind (Note that this quote makes explicitly clear that "the First Empire of the Nords" is one and the same as "the First Empire of men", the empire which preceded Reman's Second Empire and Septim's Third Empire of Men, at least in the setting of PGE v1.)

All in all, this is why the "First Empire" mention here should hyperlink to the First Empire of the Nords. Thank you for your time. LudwigC (talk) 22:45, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Whether or not the Alessian Empire was "retconned" in by Oblivion, as you believe, is irrelevant: the fact is that the Alessian Empire is an established fact of Elder Scrolls lore as officially published by Bethesda. The purpose of UESPWiki as an encyclopedia is to document Elder Scrolls lore, not to decide what should and should not be correct based on how we think the lore should have been written. — Wolfborn^(Howl) 00:25, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Please do not put words in my mouth. I am making no judgments on how the lore "should have been written." I am simply pointing out that "the First Empire" in this document universally refers to the First Empire of the Nords, thus the hyperlink should point to that article. LudwigC (talk)

LudwigC is correct here. PGE1 was released with TES: Redguard, and its pretty clear the intent of the term "First Empire" was the Nords. Even so, it doesn't necessarily make sense that the the elves harassed the Alessian Empire, because later lore states that these elves (Ayleids) were firmly under the Alessian's boot with vassal states etc by the time their empire was established.- Jimeee (talk)