Lore talk:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition

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Hey. I think PGE1 and PGE3 should be moved to the "Books:" category, rather than "Lore:" space which is usually reserved for user generated wiki articles. Thoughts? TheRockWithAMedicineCupOnHisHead (talk) 01:07, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Hard disagree. Lore namespace isnt reserved for only articles, we host the ingame books themselves there too. These are no different to ingame lorebooks.
Also these are long standing pages that our readers expect find in the lore namespace or have been linked to from thousands of forum discussions over the years, and disrupting that expectation is not acceptable. Also countless pages link to PGE meaning changing it is an enormous task with little benefit.--Jimeee (talk) 02:37, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
I'd like it if it was in Bookspace, as that would make terms from PGE a LOT easier to search through to find/filter out. I figure its only in lorespace cuz its written from an in-universe viewpoint. However, the big problem is that the page Books:Pocket Guide to the Empire: 1st Edition already exists covering IRL info, which would likely cause conflicts unless we figured out a way to sort that out. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 06:54, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
I think it's fine to keep the lore text and the book information separate. We need some way to separate the real-world book info from the in-universe book text, and this is a system that works. These lore pages predate the Books namespace though, so I'm not opposed to revisiting the decision to keep them separate. —⁠Legoless (talk) 09:14, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
I agree with Rock's proposal, as this book never appears in-game (it's even linked on the Books:Books page), but Jimeee makes a good point about links. Could the Cite Book|PGE thing be altered to link to the books page? If so, that'd clear up most of the issues right away. As for the book information, I think a good compromise already exists. Lore:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition is a Table of Contents page with an introduction, this could be easily altered to suit this proposed Books page for PGE 1 by adding the existing info on the page to the introduction section. Also, would this apply to PGE 3 as well? Mindtrait0r (talk) 13:52, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
I fully agree with Jimeee's response to this. Per the above response, relinking this page with a template will not undo the damage of removing one of the oldest and most central pages of the site. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 13:56, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Page redirects from "Lore:" to "Book:" are an effective resolve for the linking issue, no dead links. Subpages like the Books:The Daggerfall Chronicles/Narrative page seem like a valid solution to the double page issue. It's worth noting that PGE1 was released and presented in the Player's Guide of Redguard, I think we should be presenting it under that link umbrella. While PGE3 was presented as an independent book, so it would have it's own page entirely. Rim's point about searching for terms and phrases from PGE is the primary reason I've proposed this, as those search queries get buried in the shuffle of other lore articles, and makes it difficult to determine what content was generated by developers and what was generated by users at a glance. Good discussion and points all around. TheRockWithAMedicineCupOnHisHead (talk) 21:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

() Since this discussion stagnated, I'd like to offer up one issue that comes from having this in the Lorespace. when searching for certain terms or looking for hard sources, I frequently change my search specifications to exclude lore pages, as these are just copies of in-game books or pages intended as informative collections of sources (these are your character, faction, place, topic, etc. articles). There are very few exceptions to this rule that interfere with this style of searching for plain sources, and the PGEs are by-far the most notable. With how fundamental they are to the lore of TES, having them be placed in the Lorespace means you have to manually filter through every lore article with whatever term you're looking for on the off-chance a PGE has it. Now, the two PGEs aren't the only pages which do this (some other's include the EGT, which should also be in the bookspace per arguments above and restated below which have yet to be addressed, and the Loremaster's Archives, which could be in the Onlinespace per Legends:Card Lore) but they're the most glaring. Keeping these in the Lorespace, in addition to making no sense since they are physical books like the Keyes novels and The Origin of Cyrus!, which are both in the Booksspace, retains these searching issues. Mindtrait0r (talk) 23:36, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Mind on this. Having the PGE pages in lorespace isn't necessarily a problem per se. Perhaps the most reasonable solution (for the search filtering issues) could be copying the PGEs to their respective game release spaces, "Redguard:PGE", "Oblivion:PGE", "Online:EGTT" or something along those lines? Having the PGEs tied to the game of their release cycle would also help frame for the user when and why this lore was created. Thoughts? --TheRockWithAMedicineCupOnHisHead (talk) 02:10, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
I would prefer Lore or Books or even Merch namespaces over gamespace. These are companion pieces, they aren't directly relevant to the games. —⁠Legoless (talk) 09:12, 19 June 2024 (UTC)