User talk:Noone81

Merchant Tables

Hi! I noticed the tables you've added to Daenlin's and Ungarion's pages. While I like the general idea, I had a couple suggestions/questions:

• It would seem to me to make more sense to combine the two tables into one: there's more than enough width on the page
• I wasn't sure about the specific columns you've chosen. For comparison, there was a discussion at Oblivion Talk:People a while back about merchant categories, where a different list of categories was chosen. For example, you have "apparel", whereas two categories for "armor" and "clothing" may be more appropriate. Also, I'm not sure what your "stones" category is supposed to mean.
  • I also just checked the construction set to see what categories are used there: weapons, armor, books, clothing, ingredients, lights, apparatus, misc, spells, magic items, potions. I don't know what "lights" is supposed to mean (Daenlin sells them, Ungarion doesn't). Whatever categories we choose should probably be closely tied to the CS ones, since those are ultimately what govern the NPCs.
    • For the record, "lights" = Torches. In Morrowind, there was a bit more variety in terms of carryable light sources (candles, lamps, lanterns), so I guess that's why it still has its own category, even though there's only one such item in Oblivion. Anyhow, torches are common enough items that I think we can safely say the column is not necessary. Since they're weightless, I just pick up every one I find, and I've never come close to running out. --TheRealLurlock 13:30, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

I just thought it might be worth discussing these points and standardizing the formats before you get too far along in the process. Let me know what you think. --Nephele 12:52, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

I think your spot on. I did it more for my own notes and as a "sandbox" I tell you my grand scheme "no evil laughter, thank you" I was reading through the people in Oblivion and noticed that there was no standardised format, in the actual people area. I got thinking about "templates" in wiki and thought what about creating a standard format template for Oblivion People. Then reality set in; 1. It's a lot of work, 2. I don't even know if this version of wiki supports templates, 3. How do I do this anyway. So the next thought was what information do I need the most. I thought, it's where do I sell my loot and who is going to buy it. So I went to a merchant (my char was standing in front of him) and read what was on the screen vs what was on WikiOblivion. Then just changed what was on WikiOblivion to be much more readable and added some stuff.

Resonse to your notes above.

• I agree one table vs two is better, I tried that and it didn't look right. I'm open to sugestions (also need repair)
• The columns I choose were the ones displayed on my screen. I choose those as when I'm looking to buy/sell something I want to know where to find it. I also don't know anything about the construction thingy :-> The stones are soul gems, one of those guys buys/sells them.
  • Yep, understand things in the construction set will be different to whats on screen. I choose to use the screen display names as it IMHO make things easier for new players (like me, I'm only Lvl-9, first character)
    • Yep, given the programable nature of the game I'd expect that other light sources are usable (eg laterns) it's just no-ones bothered to mod them

If you want to; can you do the following (EDIT Noone81 01:33, 7 September 2006 (EDT) I think we can do this on the Oblivion:People page)

• Set up a page to discuss a people template
• Set up a page to discuss mearchant template (BTW: can be the same page)
• OR Do we just do that here and then tell the masses what has be decided (start evil laughter)

I'm currently reading up on Wiki to figure out how to build templates and template tables

Also there is a realy cool merchant page that gives an excellent summary of merchants, BUT the link is only summary page to individual merchants NOT both ways (could be a lot of work)

• BTW: You've been reading the Oblivion Game Guide (smiles) I found that in the guide it mentions Daenlin not being in shop on Sundays. This is not quite correct. I meet him outside the city on Sunday morning (5am) and he returned to his shop at 10am on Sunday morning (I followed him) & when I broke into his shop he was there.

Noone81 00:56, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

Random responses not necessarily related to NPC page layout (I'll follow your suggestion and do that at Oblivion Talk:People)

• Yes, the wiki does support templates, and a recent upgrade made it possible to start doing alot of more powerful things with templates. The NPC pages don't have any templates primarily because they're the most recent set of pages added (or actually still in the process of being added) to the site. If you'd like to start putting something together for the NPC pages that would be great. Or if you don't want to set up the template yourself, I'd be happy to help with putting one together.
• I do have the game guide, but I actually didn't get any of Daenlin's information from there. Instead I got it from the construction set (which is presumably where the game guide author also found it). Interesting to hear that he doesn't spend all day hunting, because the CS says that he hunts for 14 hours, starting at 6 am.
• It would be possible to do links from the NPC pages back to the Merchants page, without too much work. The easiest way would be to add it to the bread crumb trail at the top of the page (the place where it says 'Oblivion: NPCs', which happens to get inserted by the {{Oblivion NPC Trail}} tag). I might play with customizing the Oblivion NPC Trail template tomorrow; then it's just a matter of editing the NPC pages... for example, replace {{Oblivion NPC Trail}} with {{Oblivion NPC Trail|Merchants}}.

--Nephele 03:04, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

Filling in all the red people...

While I welcome your help in this, if you're going to take this on, I'd appreciate it if you kept the pages up to a certain quality standard. First of all, you need to include the trails and categories on each NPC, otherwise they will not be included in the category pages. Take a look at any of the other NPC pages that have been done before to see how to do this. Second, if you are un-sure of a character's race, it may help you to know that I've made a page which specifically lists every NPC in the game, alphabetically listed and seperated by race. You can find it here: User:TheRealLurlock/Sandbox. Once all the names are filled in, the category pages will have this information, so the sandbox will no longer be necessary, but it's there for now. (Just use your browser's search function to find the name on the page and see what section they're in.) Third, it would really help if you'd include more detailed information than "Ah-Malz is a male Argonian". A sentence or two describing them, seeing if they have any unique dialogue, makes the pages seem less generic. (And if they don't have unique dialogue, which is true in a few cases, then indicate that on their page.) Finally, if the NPC is at all quest-related, you should indicate such on their page, by putting it under a "Related Quests" or "Starts Quest" header. Even if the quest is referenced in the text, it should be in this header as well. Again, take a look at the existing NPC pages for reference. --TheRealLurlock 09:56, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

I'm interested in helping, but I am unclear why nothing is considered better than something.

I'm new to this game, I'm writing stuff down as I discover it. BTW: I've noticed that what is reported to be in the construction set and what happens on screen is sometimes different.

In the example you give, all I currently know about Ah-Malz is that he is a male Argonian. In some of the information I've seen on NPC's neither the race or sex is mentioned, this would have been IMHO the very least peice of information to include.

Given that you have done the sandbox, how come you haven't done something simple like go though every NPC and put a Oblivion:Oblivion-Race note on the bottom of every character. That, at the very least, would give some indication as to what race/abilities an NPC has. Noone81 12:11, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

Why is nothing better than something? Simple. There's a lot of NPCs there, and I can't possibly remember all their names. If the link is red, then I know I haven't done that one yet. If the link is blue because somebody posted something on the page, I don't know if the page is complete or if it needs more work. This is why I have to pay close attention to the Recent Changes page. Otherwise, incomplete pages might slip past and I'll never see them, and thus they'll remain minimal pages. The link colors are the only way I can keep track of what's done and what isn't. At any rate, at the very least, the trails and categories, their sex and gender, and where they live should be on every page. All of that can be easily input without much research. Anyhow, I'll get around to all of them one way or another. When it comes down to it, it's just as much work for me creating these pages from scratch as it is to fix them when other people make them. If other people kept up the quality level of these pages, it wouldn't all fall on me to fix it. So if you're really interested in helping, it would be better if you made the pages at the same level of quality as the existing pages. Otherwise, I'll end up fixing them anyhow. --TheRealLurlock 17:27, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

Welcome to the wiki, Noone81. Learning how everyone is doing a project is one of the hardest parts about joining a wiki. A good way to go about doing this is to look at other pages that Lurlock has done in the NPC-project, and see how he wants the pages to be formatted. It may also be of interest to you to ask him what he needs help on and how you could be of service to aid him in his goals with the NPC pages. If you haven't already, it may be of use to you if you check out our help files to see how to format pages. --Aristeo 23:01, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

The last few were better, but you're still missing the {{Oblivion NPC Trail}} tags at the top. (I've fixed them, and added a bit more info.) Also, while the "pickpocket" section might not be a bad idea, if the only thing they're carrying is gold and a key, I'd say don't bother. Pretty much EVERYone carries a bit of gold on them, and most people have a key to their house, so that's just not needed. (Unless the key opens a lock that can't be picked, which is not true of most house-keys.) I'd only put that info down if they're carrying something unusually valuable or rare. --TheRealLurlock 12:15, 9 September 2006 (EDT)

Ah, I had thought you were talking about the tags at the bottom, I will put the ones in the top as well. I didn't see them when I checked some other NPC pages.

I thought about adding the Pick Pockets section as a standard. On of the issues I have is when you look at the pages, it is often difficult to find certain information. Having certain types of information always on the page will

1. Fill out the page
2. Make it easy to find information
3. Often tell you what is not availiable just as much as when it is available

Using Oblivion:Winson as an example; How do you find out so much information about the NPC. I mean I just type in the information as I find it, You know where he works, you didn't include where he lives, but I'm assuming you know that. It's just amazing.

BTW: There is still no standard on what a NPC page looks like. It needs to be a template (not a wiki-template) Is should look like this XXX is a sex-type, race-type who is often found place-most-often-found ETC. It should have notes on if the NPC is killable, it should include what treasure is available if you pick-pocket them, and what if you kill them if different to pick-pocket. It should include what quests they relate to, if any, and what thier relationship in the quest is, quest provider, quest item, minor bit player, etc. TheRealLurlock, I know you have an idea on what this is, but you need to document this in a way that is readable and understandable by others. If not, you are going to create a rod for your own back (in having to re-edit peoples work), you become indispensible (which means if you leave for any reason, think Steve Irwin, then what you are trying to occumplish will fail), and people are going to argue and disagree with you ('cause they are unclear as to what to do) Do you really want this? I don't think that you do. How about we continue this discussion here NPC Template rather than using up my talk page.