Skyrim talk:Combat/Archive 2

This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Combat discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Enemy Power Attacks

Has anyone noticed the enemy's ability to simply win out of nowhere due to the power attacks they do? — Unsigned comment by 99.57.37.204 (talk) at 07:26 on 12 November 2011

No, because most of us wear armour, or block, or move. Admittedly if you wandered around naked on master difficulty and had never put a point into health, I can see you getting 1 hit killed, but that kind of comes with the choices you have made, no? JimmyDeSouza 08:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

In response to this, the original poster never claimed to be getting killed in a single hit, only that the tide could significantly turn. And yes, I have seen this. It means I now have to watch my health bar and drink potions before they have a chance to pull off a finishing move and take me out. — Unsigned comment by 98.141.187.28 (talk) at 22:01 on 20 November 2011

If you mean the "execution moves", on master and adept (the only 2 difficulties I have ever played) you will only be "executed" when you had so little health that thier next attack would have killed you anyway, so I dont see what you mean by turn the tide. Admittedly, the execution animations seem to freeze you in place, whereas without them you could have dodged maybe?

But anyway, the OP stated they are able to win out of nowhere via power attacks, which is why I assumed he meant one hit killed, as if the power attack kills you it is because you didnt have enough health, if you had already been hit, then the next attack killing you isnt exactly "winning out of nowhere", but if the power attack is strong enough to one hit kill you then the 100%hp to dead in one hit thing could possibly be called "out of nowhere". I had intended my first post up there to be more of a joke than anything else, but reading it now it seems more "snarky" than anything else, ah well. JimmyDeSouza 08:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

The execution animation locking you in place is an issue, and has come up on Beth's forums: even if you could have dodged, blocked the attack, or bashed the opponent to cause him to stagger and be unable to finish it, you don't get the chance to do so - you're essentially locked out of your controls the moment the attack commences. - ND — Unsigned comment by 174.4.166.247 (talk) at 14:48 on 5 December 2011

Being a person who wears armor, dodges and heals, I have seen enemies finishing me off with 3/4 of my health bar left. Which was weird, considering their normal attacks take about 1/10 or less from my health bar. So yes, I, too, have encountered that. I think it has something to do with the Critical Charge perk, because NPCs seem to be able to "charge" at you from almost hugging you.88.74.30.116 20:43, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

This can actually be a severe issue: hear me out. I just tested this problem with a bandit holding a dwarven dagger. I am a level 25 mage-type with 168 armour, (admittedly not much), and 200 health. When standing face-to-face with this bandit, it takes her 15 hits to kill me. However - she can ONE SHOT me randomly when she feels like it. I've had her finish me while I'm at 200 health with one hit. Does this mean that her "Critical hit" is dealing 15x damage? That seems like backstab damage. I know I'm playing master difficulty, but that's not a matter of difficulty, that's a matter of giving enemies a chance to simply kill you at will. — Unsigned comment by 142.177.79.133 (talk) at 16:34 on 30 December 2011

What's probably happening is that the bandit uses a power attack, and since the game determines that this is capable of killing you, it just does (and you can't do anything to stop it since the execution animation is immediately triggered and locks you out of your controls). - ND — Unsigned comment by 174.4.166.247 (talk) at 22:45 on 6 January 2012

Yep, that's a serious pain on master. I often would've had time to get my shield up, but the execution animation triggers and splat, I'm pounded into the ground. It's really made me wary of 2-H weapons. Vardis 05:46, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I've found this particularly frustrating fighting dragons. NPCs must have a high critical multiplier or something, because I've gotten eaten at around 75% health many times, and I'm only playing on the default difficulty. Normally I should be able to absorb 4 or 5 normal attacks with that much health and still have time to heal. WhackyGordon 00:47, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

From what I've read, finishing moves ignore your armor. So if you're wearing Daedric with 85% damage reduction but you only have 150 maximum health, any attack that would otherwise do 13 damage to you will automatically kill you if your opponent scores a killing blow. - DLA — Unsigned comment by 67.184.83.59 (talk) at 20:48 on 23 March 2012

(←) The finishing moves from players OR NPCs don't only happen when the next move "would" kill an opponent. If it takes me 8 swings to kill someone, i often notice a finishing move starting on swing 6 or 7 or sometimes even swing 5 with a power attack. I do believe there seems to be a chance, depending on the damage you are dealing and the number of hits it would take to kill someone as to whether or not a power attack starts. I've also been in Windhelm and picked a fight with a guard at low levels. from the damage he was doing to me, it looked to take him about 4 hits to kill me (without me healing at least). His first hit would always do normal damage, but quite often his second hit would be a "finishing move" that locked me in place and killed me. Upon further testing, i would notice that other times, he;d land the second hit normally. he even landed a power attack second hit on two of the tests, and it dropped me to about 8 health without killing me. As vague and inexact as it sounds, it would seem that there is a CHANCE to perform a power attack in any of the last THREE hits dealt to someone (in my tests on the windhelm guard, i was never killed in one hit from full, only ever on the second hit).Limduhl 18:38, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Spellshield

This is an alternative style that I've been playing with, kind of an alternative to the Spellsword style. Basically it's like it sounds; you equip a shield and use offensive magic, while blocking/shield-bashing enemies that get close. I find it quite fun, and works well with a high-offence follower as you basically become a magical tank, though it's easy to switch from magic to a weapon when you need to, or to dual-casting, though I'm probably not going to bother with dual casting perks since I want more armour and blocking first. Dunno if it's worth mentioning as a style, or at least as a variant of Spellsword, as the freedom to mix and match magic and warrior skills is pretty flexible in Skyrim. -- Haravikk 19:35, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

It's definitely different from Spellsword, and isn't mentioned. I do think it would be worth adding, at least as a special variation of Spellsword.

Likewise, it is possible to reach the armor cap using two handed and dual-wielding, meaning the additionnal armor provided by the shield makes no difference at high level. Bash and blocking effectiveness still make a difference, however...

109.8.88.179 14:29, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

\\\Possibly the most offensive style available. While the in-game tooltip states that it "potentially doubles damage output" that's not really the case. Double attacks take 50% longer than normal attacks, so the total increase in DPS is only 33%.\\\

Guys! 3 attacks = 300% effective, so 300/1.5=200% effective not 200/1.5=133% dps. — Unsigned comment by 89.249.173.99 (talk) on 26 March 2012

One of the main problem for warrior is that they lack of magical defense unless they use Elemental Protection or spell breaker. Spellsword can use ward but cost a lot magicka and their magicka use up very easily. Spellshield should use magical robe to regenerate magicka more quickly or use spell breaker and ward absorb against mage. Spell shield could fight with warrior in close combat much better than pure mage, they could use magical robe, armor spell, destruction spell altogether. Although robe plus shield can look weird ,it could be a great combination.(Vvardfell 08:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC))

How to assassinate?

Ive done it a few times by accident and tried to recreate it but so far without success. How exactly do you assassinate someone? (behind someone and performing a finisher move instantly killing them)— Unsigned comment by 24.7.161.20 (talk) at 19:35 on 14 April 2012

Assassinations are just fancy "instant" killing moves which result on a random chance, determined at the time of performing an attack that is 1) a valid impact and 2) capable of dealing damage beyond the target's health value. It's no different from when you occasionally, say, perform a spinning backslash and get that wicked-cool slow-motion angle effect of your character beheading some poor sod in the middle of combat. In short, it's pretty much random; the most you can do is make certain you're going to one-shot the target anyway, at which point you've got a chance at getting the assassination cam.76.101.0.98 02:05, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Instant Death bug at level up?

This is something I've not encountered on my own, but have witnessed at least once and heard of more than once that I've wondered about. According to a handful of accounts, it is possible to be instant-killed in combat upon leveling up in the middle of a fight with enemies capable of performing killing blow attacks, due to a very brief moment in which the player's level (and stats) are reset to level 1 and equivalent.

Is this actually the case? Or is it just mistaken identity falling in line with that very low probability of enemy criticals outperforming the player's health? In each of the cases I've been informed of, the player in question was above level 30, playing on Normal difficulty, and combating bandit-type characters (low-grade armor, iron or steel weaponry, very weak). One case in particular involved a player character with full health, clad in full Dwarven with almost half of the Heavy Armor perk tree filled, versus an orc bandit in iron with a steel battleaxe.

I can confirm the event I witnessed that the player's health was above 130 points and wearing full Steel Plate (sans helmet, all upgraded one rank above Fine quality), and the opponent was wielding a steel greatsword. I've read that criticals ignore armor values, but can they really do that much damage? 76.101.0.98 02:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

While at a relatively low level (around 20 - 25), I have been repeatedly cinematically insta-killed with just a hair under half my full health (probably around 100 - 140; my health, with an amulet, was around 300 at the time) against a high level human enemy in a dungeon (to be clear, this was about a half dozen times in the same skirmish), and on a few other occasions against dragons. I can't speak to the actual stats, but in my experience, it's quite risky to get below half health around powerful enemies, such as high level humans and dragons. Cronos 04:40, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Not sure about the levelling mechanics of the game, but I have been kill-cammed before at around half health, I just assumed it was a critical strike, only ever from high levelled enemies.Ess-Tee 14:44, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I did some tests on this and posted what I found under the first heading on the discussion page (so just above). My post is the outdented post.Limduhl 18:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Underwater Combat?

Can you use mellee attacks, ranged attacks, cast spells or use powers or shouts underwater?

I've never been able to but there are posts online saying underwater combat works fine.87.115.8.151 12:57, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

There are a few mods that add underwater combat, but the base game does not have this feature. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 15:33, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

orc unarmed.

I think there should be a note somewhere letting people know that orcs get the double damage bonus which applies to unarmed as well. I know that should be obvious, but people DO come here trying to find the best unarmed characters, and as it stands it only mentions argonians and khajiit for unarmed. 108.92.176.211 00:56, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

an unarmed orc deals 8 damage for 60 seconds each day. An argonian deals 10 damage all day long, and a khajiit deals 22 damage all day long before perks and enchantments. While a fully perked and enchanted orc will deal 50 damage (18 less than a khajiit), they can only double it for 60 seconds once every 24 in-game hours. Finally, the example of max unarmed damage was provided to demonstrate how much weaker it was than any other style at the HIGHEST optimizations. for the USEFUL lifespan of unarmored attacks (maybe level 15 at the outside), an orc will still do less or equal than an argonian (again, only 60 seconds a day) and far less than a khajiit. — Unsigned comment by Limduhl (talk • contribs) at 18:46 on 28 August 2012

Mounted Combat??

I think a section about mounted combat should be added to this page.Fbasaint80 03:38, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Why? There is no mounted combat — Unsigned comment by 77.103.63.213 (talk) at 21:00 on 1 July 2012

There is now, as of patch 1.5 --96.229.205.235 04:44, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it's Patch Version 1.6.87.0.6, but the information should be added nonetheless. ABCface^◥ 20:36, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

If a weapon is wielded on horseback the mouse button decides the side the blow is delivered on. It doesn't seem to matter if single or two handed. There seems to be a bug that disappears the corpse sometimes if taken out in one hit.

finishing move animation

there really should be a page documenting all of them — Unsigned comment by 99.184.94.250 (talk) at 19:41 on 2 July 2012

Unarmed Combat

Hello.

My wife likes playing with heavily armored battle mages, typically taking every perk in the Heavy Armor tree. When she asked me to calculate how much damage she could expect to do with the Fists of Steel perk, to suppliment her spells. This website appeared to have the information.

This is an incorrect appearance.

My wife's khajiit at level 10, with an 18DR from her steel gauntlets and the forementioned perk, was able to to go guard hunting to get the acheivement requiring a 1000 septim bounty in every hold. She took them down in five to six hits, depending on how well they blocked. Well, that couldn't be right, I said. The wiki said she could only perform at most 30 damage per strike at this point. According to the Skyrim Bestiary, Guards have 253 health. (As a note, we are using the latest patch for the game.)

So, I surmised that somewhere someone made a mistake, and that guards leveled with you, even before level twenty, contrary to the Bestiary. That was when we decided to test her ability to harm non-scaled level opponents.

Wolves were our control group, since they had as much health as her base claws by themselves. As calculated, she brought them down with a single hit. Critical death scenes were especially amusing.

Then she worked her way through the food chain, taking down elk with 50HP in a single hit, sabercats with 3, and other creatures with as much efficeincy.

It was when she brought down a mammoth that I began to realize what I was seeing.

We ended the experiment and compared results, and concluded that the "base armor rating" for your gauntlets that the game is talking about is calculated after skill points and perk bonuses. Not only that, but there were ten points of damage we couldn't account for. The only explanation we could come up with was that your level also factored into the damage done while unarmed.

All of this needs to be confirmed, whether by continued experimentation, or looking at the code as damage is being calculated.

I do not have the tools for the latter, so would someone like to help us out? — Unsigned comment by HexiusGrim (talk • contribs) at 18:55 on 4 July 2012

Oh I love an excuse to search for something in the creation kit! (If you are unaware, that's an awesome tool from Bethesda that allows owners of the pc version to create their own content for Skyrim, as well as look at some data) First off, if my calculations are correct, she should be hitting ~34 each time. More to the point, the perk in question uses a keyword to find the right damage addition. According to the perk info, anything with the keyword PerkFistsSteel will add 12 points of damage. (To compare, ebony gauntlets have the keyword PerkFistsEbony and add 16 to total damage dealt) Sadly, I couldn't find anything that would state the damage is calculated with your level. However, the necromage perk does have an effect on the damage buff from Claws and I'm unsure of whether or not it would affect Fists of Steel. If necromage is not involved, I'd suspect the difficulty settings have something to do with it... Crailfron 07:44, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I realize that it's been a month, and so the exact numbers will no longer be relevant. Khajiit start with 22 unarmed damage, as the page says. Steel gauntlets add 12 damage with the Fists of Steel perk. Those are fixed values; the perk doesn't actually check anything to do with armor, it just checks for certain keywords. So that's 34 damage. There are four other things that could be a factor: Fortify Unarmed enchantments (not too likely, there's only one source), the difficulty setting, which could double your damage at most, and Fortify Archery potions. Or any other source of MarksmanPowerMod. The system that applies that effect is missing a condition to restrict the damage bonus to Archery. And, as a catch-all, if you're on PC, it could be a plugin modifying any of those things. 68 damage would account for taking down guards in 5-6 hits (252 Health, but they've got some armor and skill), 50 health elk, and 150 health sabrecats. It would still take about 14 hits for a 931 health Mammoth. So my guess is the difficulty setting. -- Jumps-Down-Stairs (speak) 18:07, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Undefined Variable

The formula for determining the Stamina cost of power attacks mentions an 'Attack Cost Multiplier' variable, but this variable is not defined. If we're going to be putting formulas on the page, we need to make sure we have all variables defined so the reader can make use of them. The presence of an undefined variable makes the formula unusable. Swk3000 16:22, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

guessing here, but it's probably just the x1 for most power attacks and x1.5 for dual wield power attacks modifier 50.99.131.242 09:21, 24 February 2013 (GMT)

The modifiers are in the table in the section for power attacks. All attacks have a x1 multiplier except dual wielding, which has a x0.5 multiplier (which is also affected by the x3 attacks it does (giving it an effective x1.5 multiplier)). Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 02:04, 28 April 2013 (GMT)

Unarmed Combat Questions

Two things:

1. I've noticed several instances where my Heavy Armor has leveled from me delivering a punch, rather than taking a hit. Using a finishing move, for example, means I didn't get hit at all, but I've gone up a level from that. This would seem to count as "wear and tear" just like taking damage. Can anybody verify?

2. I've seen conflicting opinions on whether Dual Flurry has any affect on the speed of Unarmed attacks. Likewise, would Fighting Stance reduce the cost of Unarmed Power Attacks as well?SonGoharotto 04:54, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I hadn't heard either of those things, but then again I don't look at the Bethesda forums. As far as I know, neither Dual Flurry nor Fighting Stance interacts with Unarmed attacks in any way. EDIT:I have now checked the forums and it doesn't seem to. It seems that Necromage (if you are a vampire) and Fortify Archery will increase your unarmed abilities. --Anil 19:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Fortify Archery? That's a surprise. SonGoharotto (talk) 19:20, 4 September 2012 (EDT)

Do two handed weapons slow down run speed?

I was just wondering if having a two-handed weapon OUT, effects the speed of running/walking. — Unsigned comment by 68.54.245.29 (talk) at 12:49 on 13 September 2012‎

According to this page, it affects the amount of stamina used while sprinting, but not the speed at which you walk. Only bows should affect the speed. — ABCface^◥ 13:36, 13 September 2012 (GMT)

In game load screen states " you move slower with your weapon drawn". Regardless I assume. --174.91.44.143 14:33, 1 April 2013 (GMT)

Difficulty Setting and Leveling Combat Skills

The prevailing theory based on testing is that leveling combat skills (Archery, Ohe-Handed and Two-Handed) is based on the base damage inflicted with each attack. Since difficulty settings affect damage does this mean that the skill gains for each attack are also affected? Are there any console commands that can be used to measure skill xp to test this?--DagmarH (talk) 20:01, 10 October 2012 (GMT)

Speed?

Should it be noted that a dagger in the left results in the same speed as if you were dual-wielding two daggers no matter what's in the right hand? — Unsigned comment by 166.82.160.118 (talk) at 23:16 on 12 October 2012‎

I'm really wondering about how the wielding speed is calculated? what is the formula and what variables is in it?? Because in this page[1] list of weapons do include a speed factor for different types...but it's never mentioned how it affect the attack speed when players are actually wielding it, so this appears to be a question to be solved. For now those seem to have influence in wielding speed are:weapon type/weight/reach/one or two handed. But still, further investigation is necessary to be sure about this issue. BlackTheAltmerMage 11:34, 24 March 2013‎

I don't know the values or formulas, but in-game testing shows a clear difference in speed between daggers, swords, war axes and maces. Same thing with greatswrods, battleaxes and hammers (if I recall, the greatsword and battleaxe speed in the table are the same because they're rounded values). Weapon weight only affects the cost of stamina for power attacks, not speed. Weapon type and reach don't affect speed either. Elakyn (talk) 11:51, 24 March 2013 (GMT)

Falling

I'm not sure that this is the best page for the information about falling. Falling certainly can happen during combat, but a sub-topic to combat doesn't make sense to me as the primary place to find information about falling. Also, does anyone have more information about the "modifiers" used in the formula? I think amount of armor protection is a relatively important factor, and player level may be another, but I'm not sure. I'm considering moving this information to Skyrim:Health and referring to it from here, unless people think it's better here or on another page. Comments? --JR(talk) 03:39, 28 December 2012 (GMT)

Finishing moves revisited

Read the section at the top, didn't care about most of it. What intrigued me was the last post, which is something I've been meaning to ask about. The idea that "execution moves" ONLY happen when the move would kill them anways is hogwash. I get finishing moves a good 3 attacks before they would die normally. As evidenced by the fact that if I don't get one on the exact same bandit, they drop to their knees. Also, in my experience, finishing moves do not wait until your next attack. I get them low on health and mash R as fast as I can. The moment I get them low enough to execute, I finish them before I could even possibly be able to attack again. Anyone else want to jump in?--Catmaniac66 (talk) 06:46, 31 December 2012 (GMT)

Moderate Page Revamp: Outstanding Issues

I have tried to improve the page a step. It needs more work. Thanks to User:Jak_Atackka for his significant contribution to the upgrade.

There have been some changes to the page since I began this, so I will make sure that this is updated before moving it.

Some outstanding issues:

• "unarmed damages only health": Is this different than attacking with weapons?
• photo should be replaced. Because looks too similar to one on the Unbound quest page (or that might appear there soon).
• in brawls: Bashing with shield ok, but not with a weapon? torch?
• The "Dual Wielding" info was confusingly entangled with information about managing items in both hands. So far, I've just decided to try to separate the two, and make the language clearer. I suppose the original "off-hand" meant "left hand, unless the default controls have been changed." So I removed all "main hand" and "off-hand" references, assuming that if a player has reversed them, they will likely have no problem "reversing" the information provided. The information is still presented in a very confused fashion. I will try to follow-up on this, but if anyone else can work on that issue, be my guest.
• The last version said that "inns" were good places to find brawls. True? Is it more accurately just that a few of the quests are started in "guest houses?" I've removed it for now, but will investigate.
• Power attacks: "Left and right inputs can be used to side-step enemy power attacks," so, you may successfully use it to dodge, and also execute a power attack? How is a l/r power attack best characterized/described?
• In Dual-Wielding section: Changing what's equipped in your hand requires redrawing equipped weapons. Changing equipment in the off-hand does not require redrawing equipped weapons (switching to and from shield does trigger a redraw). Therefore you can switch the off-hand with a spell or another weapon without penalty. Unclear.
• Combat on horseback: Needs info.
• Section: Left and Right Hands: Equipping, Drawing, and Switching / The whole concept/section needs thought and re-writing. Does it belong here? Is it better-written somewhere else? --JR (talk) 19:44, 6 January 2013 (GMT)

• On unarmed: That's the same as weapons, but it's different from earlier TES games where unarmed damaged fatigue/stamina. *On the dual-weilding and draws/redraws: Changing out the item in your right hand will trigger the put away/draw animations. So if you change from sword to spell you have to put your sword up themn ready the spell. However, changing items in your left hand happens instantly, without the animation, as long as a shield is not involved. Changing from or to a shield in teh left hand will trigger an animaton sequence. This makes the left hand a good option for spells, or weapons with specific-use enchantments, as the character can change out the spell/weapon rapidly without waiting for a character animation. Not sure how to simplify that for the page, but hopefully that clarifies what it's trying to say there.RandomTarget (talk) 19:58, 9 January 2013 (GMT)

Thanks, RandomTarget. I've made an effort to "throw" your clarification onto the page. It is useful, but so far, a thorough revamp of those topics/sections remains needed. See if you think I've made anything clearer. Anything sensible and correct on the page is better than perfectly-worded, perfectly-organized and complete at the moment, though we should keep moving it closer to that. --JR (talk) 03:26, 10 January 2013 (GMT)

Fortify Unarmed Enchantment

Moved from page: "gloves of the pugilist are not the only fortify unarmed damage and gian the fist isn't the only wielder." This was placed — Unsigned comment by 68.114.109.71 (talk) at 12:40 on 15 February 2013. Moved pending review or more information. --JR (talk) 14:19, 15 February 2013 (GMT)

Arrow sound?

"You can fire an arrow, causing guards and enemies to investigate the targeted location. Arrows fired at rocky or hard surfaces make the most noise; wooden surfaces make little noise. After investigating the noise targets may wander around a bit, perhaps in your direction." Has it been confirmed that the type of surface your arrow strikes makes a difference in regards to what NPCs "hear"? Seems somewhat unlikely but difficult to test.  Valadez   Talk  Contributions  07:30, 19 March 2013 (GMT)

Testing this was surprisingly easy; all you have to do is remain undetected. And I can say that enemies barely react to the sound of arrows landing, unless they're really close (like 5 yards, max) and whether they hit rock, wood or soil. What they do care about is the sound of the arrow in-flight, they can hear it from a good distance. The type of bow or arrow does not seem to affect those distances.Elakyn (talk) 14:35, 19 March 2013 (GMT)

Dual Wielding Power Attacks

Couple of oddities with dual wielding power attacks.

The table for power attacks currently lists dual-wielding power attacks as using three attacks with x1.5 damage each. That can't be evenly split between two weapons, and the last hit of a dual-wield power attack seems to strike with both - is it closer to four attacks with three distinct hits? Stamina drain seems to be calculated per swing, but according to other information present, is only calculated with the right hand weapon. Then, as per the 3x attack vs. 4x attack, is this 1.5x stamina use or 2.0x stamina use?

Do enchanted weapons land their effects multiple times due to the multi-hit nature of a dual-wield power attack? I recall times where I'll get a message claiming "x resisted soul trap", but the soul trapping clearly occurs upon creature death. Fairly certain that that happened with only one attack, though I haven't done any formal testing yet.

I've also noticed that at a high enough swing speed, there seems to be one more double swing just before the full power attack combo occurs. Not sure if the game interprets it as a normal attack before realizing that you're holding down the buttons longer, and thus attempts to execute a normal dual-wield attack before overriding it with a power attack, but could be worth looking into. In particular, doing something like dual-wielding pickaxes or a dagger/sword combo seems to display some kind of phantom swing before the dual-wield combo kicks in; if the speed gets further boosted by Elemental Fury, that phantom swing actually seems to do something. I've been able to mine ore rocks in two power hits with the speed boost, vs. three hits without. Shinymoogle (talk) 17:36, 8 April 2013 (GMT)

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