User talk:Wizy/Chain Spells

Looking for writers

The page is pretty much done on my part, maybe it needs some example spells. But that's not important, they can be added later.
The problem is that English is not my native languaje and I don't think I can redact a decent article. Chain spells are complex and require a good explanation, wich im not able to make.
So, I'm looking for people to write up this article, the page contains all the required data, I'm sure most users will understand it as it is now.

"Why would I work on this?"

• Spell Chaining is a subject with high demand.
• It is verified that it does work.
• New methods adding Drain Magicka were recently discovered, with which the spells are now much powerful. The old chain spells are a joke in comparison.

If there is any missing/wrong data or you have any questions, contact me here or in my talk page. --Wizy (Talk/Contribs) 09:41, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I have underestimated myself. I think I can write this (albeit at a snail's pace), nevertheless the offer still stands. By the way, whoever writes in the article, do not worry about format or style. --Wizy (Talk/Contribs) 10:07, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I'll help with this however possible. It's good to see that the trick hasn't died, despite the attempts of certain editors. --Debatra 12:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Even if the article is not finished anytime soon, we can ensure the trick does not fall into oblivion. Feel free to contibute as you wish. If you still play the game, experiment with the spells. The portion of text I added to the Article secction is yet another stub, modify it as you see fit. If you have any question, ask away. --Wizy (Talk/Contribs) 12:51, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I won't be able to experiment in-game for a while, but I still have my old notes from when I last fought to save this trick; and a few other ideas. --Debatra 16:41, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I know I had promised to help with this, but I've been going through a bad period of the CFS lately. I've hardly even worked on my own projects since before Christmas, much less anything else. One thing I did want to mention, though, is my recent discovery of Enhanced Hotkeys. I haven't tried it yet, but I've heard good things about it, and I strongly suspect that it would make spell chaining an absolute joy, since it sounds like it can one-touch hotkeyed spell chains. It's something to check out, anyway, and if it is useful, it might be one of the rare cases where a mention of a specific mod would be appropriate in an article. Probably just something small, like "certain mods, such as Enhanced Hotkeys, can make spell chaining significantly more user-friendly". – Robin Hood↝talk 21:09, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I'll start making contributions now that Fallout 3 New Vegas has been completed twice... :P ZirePhoenix 07:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I have been inactive for a long time, and will probably still be. I doubt this page will ever be finished by me.

Well I just wanted to tell that the content here has no owner, you can copy and modify it as you please. Also this applies for anyone that reads this and is interesed, not just ZirePhoenix. Any comment or question, keep posting here. --Wizy (Talk/Contribs) 04:27, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh well, just noticed some of the content have been already added to Oblivion:Useful Spells. Fine then, I have recovered the hope on this. I'll try to write some more this week/month and make some good great awesome examples of chain spells --Wizy (Talk/Contribs) 04:52, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Heya there, just wanted to say I am back in town. If you don't remember me, I made the mechanics analysis on how the mana is distributed :) Not much changed there I see, not much love for chain spells? I probably have found the best possiblity of a chain spell, as I can beat the game on hardest difficulty with lvl 24 naked if I wanted to it seems [also no invisibility and chameleon effects]. They are really underrated, I'll make a video on youtube so eternal haters (Rpeh) might one day understand their real usefulness, back later :) -Borbarad

Willpower

While it turns out I don't actually have my aforementioned notes on this computer, I seem to recall a note about a high Willpower (no numbers given) letting casters get away with Chain Spells that cost a few more points of Magicka. Has recent testing (especially with the Drain Magicka addition) shown this to be true/reliable? --Debatra 01:25, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, the natural regeneration of magicka allows higher cost, especially for the 'allow delay' chain versions (i.e. fortify for more than 3 secs). In fact, most of the chain spells I used cost around 320-360. This requires some calculations. --Wizy (Talk/Contribs) 02:33, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

It's been a while. Went off to play other stuff :P Anyways, the high willpower has significant impact because your spell regeneration seems to be percentage based. With the same will power, it'll take you just as long to regenerate to 100% regardless of your maximum pool. With your maximum magicka pool boosted by 300 points by the spell for several seconds, your natural regeneration will have a huge boost. ZirePhoenix

Morrowind

Will this work in Morrowind too? Will we need different calculations? — Unsigned comment by Debatra (talk • contribs) at 00:46 on 19 January 2011 (UTC)

You would, if you had played Morrowind you know that the magic system is considerably different. For example magicka doesn't automatically regenerate. Alpha Kenny Buddy 00:46, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Though I intend to change the fact, I haven't played it. I only remember reading here that there was Spell Making. --Debatra 00:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

@AKB: Please try to maintain a polite tone in most cases. It was a perfectly valid question. Simply saying "No. Magicka doesn't regenerate automatically in Morrowind." would have answered the question; there was no need for "You would, if you had played Morrowind know...".--Ghurhak gro-Demril _{or TAO}^Yes? 08:19, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to be rude, if it appeared that way I apologize. I meant you would need to create new formulas if you wanted to create a Morrowind version of spell chaining. Once again I would like to apologize if you took offense Debatra, it was entirely unintended.Alpha Kenny Buddy 18:00, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Not a problem. It's not your fault text can't communicate tone of voice. I've been in that situation too many times to count. --Debatra 19:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry!--Ghurhak gro-Demril _{or TAO}^Yes? 23:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

(←) Not a problem, I can see how my message could of been misinterpreted. Alpha Kenny Buddy 23:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

With regards to the OT, no, these do not work in Morrowind. However, Morrowind's magic system is broken in its own way... the Int boosting potions allowing you to make stronger Int boosting potion, which then boosts the next Int boosting potion, etc... You can easily get multi-digit (over several million) Int, then create potions that heal ridiculous amount of health/mana, or give insane bonuses. Strength bonuses cannot be too high because with enough strength, you will break weapons in one hit. There is also the Magic Absorption trait. Pick the right signs, get the right gear, and end up with 100% magic absorption. Even at 50% absorption, you can go to a shrine, pray for 0-5 gp (yes, at some point it becomes free), and absorb the shrine spell to restore basically infinite mana. ZirePhoenix 06:56, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Not Working

I have no idea what's going on, but my test won't work properly. Here's what I have, in order:

• Fortify Intelligence 100pts for 5 secs on Self
• Fortify Magicka 100pts for 5 secs on Self
• Drain Magicka 1pt for 1 sec on Self
• Restore Health 100pts for 1 sec on Self
• Restore Fatigue 100pts for 1 sec on Self
• Reflect Spell 100pts for 1 sec on Self

Total Magicka Cost - 202 My Max Magicka - 217 Spell Effectiveness - 100%

Works for two castings(with block held), then gestures a third, failed casting. Any ideas? --Debatra 02:28, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Here is the analysis of the changes in magicka:

 M(agicka) = 217; start
cast
 M = 15; spell cost is substracted
 M = 12; drain M is applied (magnitude 3, cuz its the minimum)
 M = 112; F(ortify) M is applied
 M = 312; F Int is applied (max M becomes 517)
cast
 M = 112; F Int is removed
 M = 12; F M is removed
 M = -190; cost substracted
 M = 0; drain M applied (resets to 0)
 M = 100; F M applied
 M = 300; F Int applied
cast
 M = 100
 M = 0
 M = -202
 M = 0
 M = 100
 M = 300

↑Without taking into account the natural regeneration.

In theory it should work according to what we believe is the way the mechanics work. However all the tests I've done have been with atleast 300 max magicka. I suspect that having less than 300 max magicka is what makes that spell fail to chain, wich would mean that our 'mechanics' are not completely accurate.

I doubt that Reflect Spell matters here, supposedly you own Reflect Spell value is ignored when you are the caster.

Another fact that I could not clarify yet, is the termination of Drain Magicka. At some points it seems to give the drained magicka back, while it seems to do nothing at others.

In summary, further testing is required.

Almost forgot, What were your restoration and mysticism levels? --Wizy (Talk/Contribs) 04:24, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Restoration 100, Mysticism... Well, considerably less, but I tried it with enough Fortify Health to get to the same Magicka cost instead of RS, with the same result. --Debatra 04:48, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Silly me, of course you had 100 restoration or you could not cast such spell. I have spotted the problem, the drain magicka duration should be the same as the fortify (i.e. 5 in this case). This was correct before, but I have wrongly changed it to 1sec.

The max magicka is not a problem, as long as you have enough to cast the spell, wich means the mechanics are not wrong. However the above means that the mechanics are not perfect, since it seems to be the release of drain magicka what resets the value to 0, rather than the application of it. --Wizy (Talk/Contribs) 13:04, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll make sure to test this one. --Debatra 11:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Drain Attribute!!!!!!!

Drain Intelligence 100 pts 5 sec on self

Fortify Intelligence 100pts 5 sec on self

Fortify Magicka 100 pts 5 sec on self

Drain Magicka 3 pts 5 sec on self

Frost damage 100 pts in 11 ft for 3 sec (example) or

Other Effects Totalling less than 300

Since when is there a cap to intelligence increasing magicka?? This is what appears to be screwing my chains Doing this appears to make them work again. Or am I missing something. Datacaust 05:38, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I've understood you correctly. Do you mean that the chain does not work for you, but it does when you include Drain Intelligence? --Wizy (Talk/Contribs) 15:20, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah thats what I'm saying. Im not saying chaining doesnt work because I used low level spell chains before Drain Magicka was added. But when I started playing with massive master spells with it I was having problems. This spell without the Drain Attribute and with damage modified to match the cost (292 Magicka i think) fails to chain. I also add that I was "Spell Chain Stacking" I made two copies of the spell and found that it worked as a chain and a stack, without the drain attribute it failed because my Intelligence was capping (presumably). I want to add that I'm wearing a full set of glass armor enchanted with Fortify Intelligence making my Intelligence 189. I'm putting a copy of the spell I'm using on my user page under My spells. Datacaust 17:48, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Intelligence does not cap, I've tested with up to 400~. It might be possible that you have done something different besides the drain int.

If you are wearing armor the effectiveness of the fortify effects are reduced. I assume you have 95%, in wich case the max cost would be 285. However if your magicka is not stunned you should be able to chain 292/300 as mentioned two sections above.

Take in mind that a spell can only chain into the very same spell, to force the fortify effects to terminate: after the cast is ordered but before the spell cost is substracted. Trying to chain two different spells is the same as casting two 'normal' spells.

The usefulness of Drain Intelligence in chain spells is yet unkown, but at first I could not find any change in the spells when playing with it --Wizy (Talk/Contribs) 19:23, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Your right about the intelligence I tested to 566. So if its my armour rating causing the fail why does this appear to fix it? Drain Attribute at the start must provide more magick in the end in order to account for my armour. What do you mean by a spell can only chain into the very same spell and Trying to chain two different spells is the same as casting two 'normal' spells.. Do you mean that it can only be called a chain spell if its a single spell that repeats? and did you see the spell on my page so that you can have an idea of what I'm trying to do? Datacaust 21:55, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Well Im now confused the spell that previously failed to chain without Drain attribute is chaining just fine. I tested it unequipped then re equipped my armour now it works with my armour on. leaving me with no idea why it wasn't working, why drain intelligence made it work, and why it now works without it. Cosequently, I'll shut up. Datacaust 23:53, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I've been busy these days, but now I'm back. I meant that spell A will not restore the magicka lost by spell B even if they are exact copies. You can however set the duration a bit longer and keep both active by casting A, B, A, B, A etc. --Wizy (Talk/Contribs) 08:14, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

That was causing the fail. The timing was very tight with my chain stack and I didn't realize at the time that the B spell didn't replace the effect from the A spell leaving me one second margin of error my willpower is so high that my regeneration nullified armour rating effect. Knowing that I am able to cast spell. DUH. Can kill anything in the game in three touches though. Datacaust 00:50, 22 February 2011 (UTC)