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Active Discussions

Many discussions of community-wide interest are held on pages other than the community portal. Discussions about specific policies belong on the policy talk pages, for example. The following table lists other discussions that are currently in progress on other talk pages. If you start a discussion on another talk page, please add it to this list. If a discussion listed here has been inactive (i.e., no comments of any type in at least a week), please remove it from the list.

Location Date started Topic Listed here by
Legends talk:Concept Art 23 June 2017 Card Art Terminology Dwarfmp

Help recovering a lost 2016 interview with Lawrence Schick[edit]

Almost a year ago, in late July, Lawrence Schick participated in a second interview with op-cast.com (after this one). It included a number of small lore details that I had hoped to add to several pages, but I never got around to it. I finally remembered the interview in recent days, but I found out that the site that hosted the podcast is gone and I'm having trouble finding any copy or archive of the interview elsewhere. It also was never transcribed at UESP like the first interview. This is the original URL where the podcast was located: http://www.op-cast.com/eso-rp/special-zos-lore-master-interview-with-lawrence-schick

All I have left are my brief notes on the podcast, which I've posted to pastebin. The obvious problem is that without that podcast at hand, none of my notes can be properly sourced or verified. If anyone can provide a copy of the podcast, I would be very thankful. Croaker (talk) 23:26, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Ah, that's a shame. Might be worth trying to contact the creators? —Legoless (talk) 23:39, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
I'm digging into that now. So far, it looks like the podcast's creators not only shut down their site, but also deleted their profiles from the ESO role-playing forum where they were advertising their podcasts. Croaker (talk) 04:51, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Here is a link to a copy of the interview, courtesy of Acer and Emmy on Discord. Now is the time to transcribe it, if anyone has the inclination. —Legoless (talk) 00:41, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
I can. I'll get on that soon. Echo (talk) 01:10, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, Legoless! I was at a loss and about to concede that maybe the internet does forget some things after all. And thank you in advance, Echo, for the transcription. Croaker (talk) 02:57, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

() Before I forget, the transcription is done (it still needs links and probably some error correction for some ESO names that I am unfamiliar with). Should it be added to the previous entry's page, or given a new one? Echo (talk) 20:21, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Excellent work. Probably best to go with a new page for it, especially since the previous one featured both Lawrence Schick and Jessica Folsom and this one only has Schick. According to my bookmark, this interview's titled "*Special* ZOS Lore Master Interview with Lawrence Schick", so maybe that can serve as the page title, minus the asterisks (unless we're fine with asterisks). Croaker (talk) 21:01, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
That works, if there are no objections. It'll need some info for intro text though (date especially). Echo (talk) 04:11, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Online:Ancestral Tombs[edit]

I've seen that a few people have been adding red links to Online:Ancestral Tombs, which means that there is demand for such a page. I'd like to create it, but I'm not sure how to approach it, as the ancestral tombs fall into a few categories:

Should the article include all of these categories? Or just some of them? --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 11:01, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Not sure about the last one, but definitely the others, with probably the achievement ones first. --Enodoc (talk) 16:39, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Card Art implementations[edit]

This may not be the ideal location to discuss, but I didn't really know where else to do so. Anyway, I've stumbled upon, and have been uploading, a lot of Legends art, and adding card art to their card articles has been largely done through a gallery, with short descriptions.

I wanted to refine the gallery concept, since getting more art could make these a bit awkward considering layout and descriptions. I tried something different and added pixel size in the description in lieu of a written description such as "cropped version of larger resolution" (see this page for an example). I think this makes it a lot clearer as to what the image actually is, because you can tell from the thumb whether it's cropped or not, and "high(er) resolution" is simply unclear.

However, there has been negative feedback on this concept, so I'd like to discuss this before adding all these images to the articles. Any other ideas or suggestions? ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 00:03, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

On layout alone it looks horribly overcrowded. I tested it with a NewLine and though the whitespace is almost as bad it is to me more preferable. I also found a 1500px square quality copy of the full image (the 512px) with better focus (you can see the buildings behind the dust to the upper center-right), so there should be a better version of the widescreen one somewhere, or find a copy without the false copyright claim attached to it that was on the one I found. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:02, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
I don't really see the benefit of having numerous copies and crops of the same picture. All we need is a single picture, that being the highest res and most complete version. --Enodoc (talk) 15:14, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Cropped images wouldn't be necessary no, but the problem is afaik there are no high res full art versions found anywhere, as for now at least. The cropped versions I've uploaded are from a higher res art, so I figured that is better than nothing ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 15:47, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Imperial City Storyline[edit]

I've done up the IC storyline for TIL. All the material is there to create detailed walkthroughs. My time is very, very short at the moment and I'm using it to get the raw material to produce the Wrothgar story, so if you leave it up to me I won't be adding it to UESP before August. https://www.imperial-library.info/content/imperial-city-0— Unsigned comment by Xui'al (talkcontribs) on 28 June 2017

Confirmed Users[edit]

As most of you probably know, new users are limited in what they can post, as a spam-reduction measure. This has, occasionally, led to issues with new users who want to post things that happen to involve external links on their user pages or large sandbox edits as their first few edits. One or two edits isn't bad, and they can often go to other users to help out, but when it gets to be several in a row, it can be seriously annoying, as one of our new users recently discovered.

Because autoconfirmed status is based purely on an algorithm of X days and Y edits (in our case, 4 days and 10 edits), there's nothing administrators can do to override this currently. We can manually do pretty much the same thing, though, by creating a group and granting users access to it as needed until they get their autoconfirmed rights. I'm thinking of simply adding a "Confirmed Users" group that any administrator can add a user to upon request. Given that it really grants no significant rights, we could even give Patrollers the ability to grant this permission if we want, as a way of easing them into the idea of granting rights, should they become administrators later on. This would require a bit of server work, and changing some of our spam filters to match, but it's really not that big of an effort, so I think it's a worthwhile thing to do to make our wiki more welcoming to these users, even if it's not an issue that comes up all that often.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Robin Hood  (talk) 20:14, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

That sounds like a very good idea to me. We do the exact same thing on the forum, in fact: it normally requires them to be a member for a week and have 10 posts before they can post links, send PMs, etc, but if we know that a new user is an actual person and not a bot, we can add them to "Confirmed Users" manually. ~ Alarra (talkcontribs) 20:28, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
Frankly I don't see the point, people should just learn to have patience and understand why certain things are needed before they go wailing off to whomever they can that the universe and it's nasty big brother want to hurt them. Ever since I gave up on a free internet without paying and getting a vpn, almost every site I don't allow cookies from thinks I'm a bot and I have to go through a captcha, but I don't moan because I can actually access the site afterwards. Our very basic system is very important and shouldn't be compromised for the sake of a few editors who don't have the patience to "suffer" for 4 days/10 edits in order to free themselves from the shackles of oppression. In my very humble opinion anyone who doesn't have the patience to survive this extremely long period isn't going to stick around and benefit the wiki in the long term, and prostrating ourselves before them will only cause unneeded and possibly damaging effects that far outweigh the minuscule benefits that might come from it. No editor of substance has ever been harmed by this practice, and none ever will. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:13, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
The only point of the edit count and timer is to filter out spammers and spambots because we can't tell whether new accounts are real people or not. If it is clear that they are through other means, then the restriction is pointless, so we might as well override it if possible. --Enodoc (talk) 10:42, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
Being a real person does not mean they are not a spammer. There have been plenty of users whose sole reason for creating an account and a user page is to advertise their work elsewhere, be that a Youtube channel or simply their fan-fiction. There are also users from TIL and others such as the Unofficial Patches people whose sole/main concern is their own interests (UP happens to be in our interests too). The only way to gain access to unrestricted* external linking is by becoming at minimum a user patroller, so bypassing the autoconfirmed is fairly pointless. I would much rather a user showed they were of benefit to the site before we allow them to benefit other sites. I've just gone over all the documentation on the edit filter, and unfortunately there is no known way to limit the amount of filters a single edit will make a user experience, nor does there appear to have ever been an attempt at it or even desire to see such coding. I'm not sure anything can be done to remove any possible overlap between our filters, and wikipedia far outstrips us with 168 active filters (though about 1/3 of them would only tag or log an edit, ie no warnings). Again I see no point in compromising the most basic anti-spam filter, despite the fact that almost every single spammer before the edit filter was enabled was autoconfirmed (not sure about stats since then). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 12:47, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
Our vandalism page does say "Adding links that advertise a personal Elder Scrolls-related fan site is usually inappropriate, but not necessarily vandalism". While it's a broad statement, in practice, we've never tried to forbid or limit someone from advertising the other things they do. My personal interpretation of it based on what I've seen over the years is that it was intended to cover people who only post an ad link on their page and don't contribute to UESP in any other way.
Bypassing autoconfirmed for specific users would still give them a warning for YouTube links, yes, but it would eliminate several other spam warnings and, more importantly, eliminate a couple of disallowed edits. We've had the situation come up several times where a user joined initially to work on a specific page, and they were already savvy enough to want to work on it in a sandbox. Of course, when they try to move it, our bulk spamming feature kicks in and disallows the edit, possibly along with a user spam disallow even when they cut and paste in small steps, and warnings for a few other issues. It becomes at best a hassle for them to work on their intended project, at worst, it's disallowed outright unless they break links, etc. That's hardly a productive way to edit or a welcoming environment for a new user. Robin Hood  (talk) 18:31, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

() Okay, this should now be set up. Confirmed Users (confirmed in the user rights editor) don't quite have the same rights as autoconfirmed users do in that they can't edit semi-protected pages or move pages. I focussed instead on the common new-user issues like bulk copying to a sandbox and user pages with external links on them. Once users have hit autoconfirmed status, they'll have all these rights and more, so can be removed from the Confirmed Users group. For the time being, only admins can add/remove people from the group, but it's easy enough to open up to patrollers if we want to. Robin Hood  (talk) 22:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Sidebar Redesign, Again[edit]

Stemming from a comment on Discord ("we kind of choke the life out of the mod sections since they aren't linked on the sidebar" --AKB), and given that there are so many different versions of the sidebar (depending on which gadgets you've got turned on, or what custom code you have), it's hard to remember really what the default is. So I would like to propose a new default for the sidebar that is based exactly on what is listed at All Content, since that is what I believe the sidebar should reflect. The current sidebar is inconsistent with what it includes (SR and OB add-ons, but not MW ones; TR, BM, and SI, but not DB, etc), while All Content is consistent throughout. I know there were numerous arguments before about KotN/SI and DG/HF/DB, so the proposal here is namespaces - yes, other DLCs - no, exactly the same as All Content. Granted that will make it quite long, but for the benefit of not hiding stuff away, I think that's a reasonable trade-off. We could even make the collapsible feature active by default to make it a bit shorter.

--Enodoc (talk) 21:04, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I bring this up every time, but if we link to Dragonborn in the sidebar we must also link to Dawnguard and Hearthfire. Our choice to make a separate namespace for it doesn't take away from the fact that it's only one of three DLC. The current "Skryim Add-Ons" link works fine, but if we want to have a collapsible menu then we may as well take advantage of it and do it right. —Legoless (talk) 21:21, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
That's fine, but then we must also add them both to All Content. You do then get the argument for adding KotN as well, due to it being on its own level between ShIsles and the other OB DLCs, just like Hearthfire is a lower level DLC than DG and DB. --Enodoc (talk) 21:55, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
We should also add general namespace to the sidebar, same reasoning. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 04:37, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Oh, did I forget General? Yeah that should be there too. I put it at the bottom for now. --Enodoc (talk) 08:44, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
All Content should have links to Dawnguard, Hearthfire, and Knights of the Nine because these are some of the largest additions to the game. It's purpose is to provide a directory to the major content portals on the wiki. As for the sidebar, it already has a link to All Content, so in my opinion it should be a more condensed version.
That isn't to say the sidebar is perfect right now. I agree with Enodoc that Elder Scrolls Online needs links to Morrowind and DLC. However, for Skyrim the Official Add-Ons page already includes DG, HF, and DB. The same goes for Oblivion's Add-Ons page, which has Knights of the Nine and Shivering Isles. The only reason we have Shivering Isles on the sidebar is because like Tribunal and Bloodmoon, it is a full expansion (ask Legoless). The Morrowind Add-Ons are really too small to justify a link; if not for KotN, we wouldn't have it for Oblivion either.
There is also little reason to have all four TES Travels games because the main page already has them in a nice summary. These games are hardly ever played so to have five links is ridiculous. General is also rarely used, so the same argument applies. Keep in mind these are already on All Content (don't forget Canceled Games under General if you want everything). I'm all in favor of grouping Battlespire, Redguard, and Legends under "Spin-Offs". This removes any breaks in continuity for the main series (and Daggerfall is probably played more than Battlespire and Redguard combined).
Considering how this discussion started because of the mod spaces, it's fair that these need a link somewhere. The problem with Enodoc's format is that ESOMod is not there. Since four links is a lot to add for little gain (similar to TES Travels), my solution is to create a page simply called "TesMod" (other names are welcome). Without a namespace, this page would be very much like "TES Travels" and transclude all four mod spaces. We can put that link at the bottom. Here is my revised table:
Dillonn241 (talk) 21:47, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Completely agreed on adding DG, HF and KotN to All Content. If All Content is going to stay in the sidebar, then I agree the whole sidebar itself can be shorter; my suggestion for having the sidebar equal to All Content was to avoid having to click through to All Content in the first place. I'd be fine with wiping off the individual TES Travels entries and just keeping TES Travels itself (that's how the default sidebar works anyway). I do think though that if we're having SR Add-Ons and OB Add-Ons in there, then MW Add-Ons needs to be there too, for completeness.
I don't actually know why Canceled Games has its own entry on All Content, since it's just one page of many in General. I intentionally excluded ESOMod because I don't actually know what use it is. You can't mod ESO, and I don't see why we'd ever bother documenting random UI add-ons. But if that's something we're going to do at some point, then yes, it would need to be somewhere. The separate modspace index is a nice idea, but I wonder if that would still leave them hidden too much. If that idea is supported though, I would suggest "Mods" as the page name, as it is simple and easy to understand.
--Enodoc (talk) 00:04, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

() The sidebar and All Content are completely separate things with their own necessities and rules regarding inclusion. All Content is seemingly focused purely on namespaces, whereas the sidebar is focused on accessibility for users to find the content they are after. This makes the sidebar much more fluid and often appears in conflict with All Content, specifically in regard DLCs. Cancelled games are a pure exception to the namespace focus of All Content, as without a single page for them all each one would be entered, which is less ideal. ESOMod is about much more than user mods, it contains (or at least should) all public knowledge on the workings of the game, which is useful for modders, only one of the reasons the other modspaces exist. ESO DLC is the DLC that is locked behind additional payments, be that ESO Plus or outright purchase, which includes Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood.

The fluidity of the sidebar allows Morrowind under ESO, as it did for Dawnguard and Hearthfire when they appeared for Skyrim, and could well have seen links for TG and DB added at the relevant times, even if eventually goes. On my sidebar there are currently no DLC except the general page under Skyrim yet KotN appears under Oblivion. Even if no-one wants to admit it, Dawnguard is a "massive" DLC, where Hearthfire is a "minor" one, as is KotN. The standard DLC for the sidebar should include Dawnguard and Dragonborn and exclude KotN. If we went back and re-evaluated Tribunal, it might likely end up in the Morrowind namespace for the same reasons Dawnguard did not get a namespace, but it would still warrant a place on the sidebar due to its size. KotN usually survives any culls because there is a nice symmetry to having two DLC listed per game, but it really isn't comparable in size to the Dawnguard or Tribunal. The official addons for Skyrim and Oblivion should also be submenus like the Morrowind one which links all the remaining DLC.

Due to the fluidity it could even be argued that Legends could be given a more prominent status than relegated to the "other games" section. There is no logic to the suggestion that that section can be split with the spinoffs getting a submenu while the travels are not given the same treatment. We've also had enough arguments trying to confine those seven games under those two headers that are not strictly correct for some of them; leave them at "other games" under the sidebar.

So in short the sidebar should resemble the All Content page as it stands, with the inclusion of Dawnguard, keeping the merged other games, and including the General namespace at the end (without a link to the canceled games on the sidebar). Hopefully it also goes without saying that all these menus should start collapsed, which means that it will only have the addition of General to lengthen its default size. Also, the All Content page needs the description of the modspaces revised because those spaces are about so much more than third party mods. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:04, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I tried to ascertain the greatest common denominator between all the suggestions, and came up with this:
--Enodoc (talk) 14:52, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Works for me. It may even be appropriate to move Books down. —Legoless (talk) 20:27, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
How far down? Books • General • Mods sort of thing? --Enodoc (talk) 21:48, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Sounds good, if no one objects. —Legoless (talk) 01:13, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
I've added that change into the suggestion above, and also shortened the whole thing a bit by linking to only the parent pages for Mods and Travels, just in case anyone doesn't have JavaScript, as that being non-collapsed would have otherwise been quite long. --Enodoc (talk) 21:05, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
I fully support Enodoc's compromise for the sidebar changes. —Dillonn241 (talk) 21:23, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Hearthfire doesn't need to be listed under Skyrim. I still disagree with reducing the "TES Travels" games to a single entry, but the least compromise should be a secondary submenu with the other games under that header, as it still leaves it "tidy" while including them. We don't have a Mods parent page, and again there is no reason not to have it as a submenu, though really there is no reason not to include the mod links under the parent games, mods are after all one of the reasons the game series has been been so successful and we shouldn't be stingy about their inclusion. In either case the Add-Ons entries seem a under-informative without the game name prefix, "Official Add-Ons" would make sure there was no confusion with the additional Mod links. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:43, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

() The sidebar includes All Content, so the other links should be a useful subset of that page. Keep in mind that All Content still needs an update with links to Dawnguard, Hearthfire, and Knights of the Nine. Hardly anyone plays the TES Travels games, so having five links is not at all useful. I have to side with Silencer on not including Hearthfire based on this usefulness principle. I'm not too concerned if we keep it, but it's really not much bigger than three Oblivion house plugins. Like Silencer said in an earlier post, it also creates a nice symmetry of two major add-ons per game.

I don't know why not having a Mods parent page is an issue. We'll just create it by transcluding the main page of each mod namespace, similar to TES Travels. The reason I proposed this idea in the first place is because of usefulness. This page would have all the links of each individual page and shorten the sidebar. Assuming we stick with this plan, there is no need to put "official" in front of "add-ons", but I don't care much either way. —Dillonn241 (talk) 02:32, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

The purpose of not having a TES Travels submenu or Mods submenu is to keep the Sidebar as short as possible while still being useful to the majority of visitors. Remember that we're considering the average user here, and the default sidebar doesn't collapse (although the original proposal does suggest making it collapsible by default). Sub-submenus might end up taking that collapsibility too far, and looking messy rather than useful. TES Travels links to all the necessary pages anyway, as would Mods when it is created. Regarding "Add-Ons" vs "Official Add-Ons" (etc), maybe it would be better if we scrap the internal consistency for naming these and use the official names instead, then it would make more sense. If I remember rightly, these were "Plugins" for Morrowind [1], "Downloads" for Oblivion [2], and "Add-Ons" for Skyrim [3]. --Enodoc (talk) 11:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
The default sidebar should be collapsed as it is already, and Morrowinds additional addons is already a submenu including all the remaining ones (eg Helm of Tohan, Siege at Firemoth) so the others could follow that example or else for consistency that is removed. That way there is no additional length created except via the addition of General and possibly the Mods. Making it collapsed means it becomes much more useful because of the amount of links we can put in it, without it being overfull, and without tripling its length. I don't see what use a Mods page could be beyond having links to the "sub" pages, nor do I see much use for it when there is no need to not include the links in a collapsed submenu under either that header or the games. The argument against using the official name (DLC etc) is that a person on our site knows where to go for each game, and we have redirects for all the terms anyway. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 12:16, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
The current default sidebar doesn't collapse, and the current default sidebar doesn't have all the Morrowind plugins in it. Those are both features of the "collapsible sidebar" gadget in Special:Preferences. I would like to make the default sidebar collapsed, but we must also consider the case with regards to missing/broken/disabled JavaScript, as an uncollapsed sidebar with all that in it would be very long.
The mods page would exist as an introduction to modding and an index of each game's modspace in one place. I guess the benefit of that over having each modspace listed separately under the games is that it provides focus on mods as an important and distinct part of the TES community in its own right, as opposed to just sub-section of each game. --Enodoc (talk) 13:57, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
The only thing I'd like to add is don't make the sidebar collapsible! Doing to is taking a massive risk with discoverability for average users. Some studies claim discoverability of content is cut almost in half by hiding a website’s main navigation. If the impetus of this thread was to make the General namespace more visible, this course of action could result in the opposite for the whole site. --Jimeee (talk) 15:32, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
I didn't realise there was an option in the gadgets, just going to that page shows the real one. The idea Jimeee is to have the submenus collapsed, not the sidebar as a whole. I don't consider disabled Javascript as our problem, anyone who does it knows that some parts of sites won't work as they are intended, and the vast majority of visitors won't be affected. Though in the interests of over-indulgence the secondary submenus for the addons can be dropped. My proposal actually decreases its size then, while improving its functionality and the accessibility it offers. Links to every game should take priority over links to subsections of some of the games (ie a link to Stormhold should be prioritised over a link to Oblivion's mod section), as the mods may be what helps make the series popular, but without the games the series would not exist. At the very least we could trial it, and should it prove unworkable we can try the condensed version proposed. If someone can write the codes for the versions then we can try to move towards an accepted version. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:19, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

() I find it weird to "hide" Legends in the end of the list as it is the latest Elder Scrolls game, even if it does not belong to the main series. Also I suggest to write names of the games as TES3: Morrowind and TES5: Skyrim, this way we both make a distinction between ESO: Morrowind and TES3: Morrowind and don't have to make an additional line for "Other Games".

Like this. I renamed "DLC" to "DLCs" and added "Ch.1" before "Morrowind" chapter under ESO. Also you can see that I suggest a second bullet to list selected add-ons under ALL add-ons. Also I would suggest to rename "General" to "General information", "Mods" to "Modding", and "Books" to "Real life books" or "Printed books" to further distinct them from the in-game books. Phoenix Neko (talk) 23:50, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

One small comment on that: the sidebar only supports one level of indent, and even that's only because we modified the code to allow it. I recall the code being a bit of a hack, so I wouldn't suggest we try to allow multiple levels. Robin Hood  (talk) 01:49, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
Thanks RobinHood, nice catch! I guess it doesn't have to be a level of indent per se, it could be any divider - a hyphen, for example, would work just as well. I've edited my suggestion to reflect it. Phoenix Neko (talk) 02:12, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
"TES"ing everything and adding secondary bullets is probably unnecessary; this is a TES wiki, and the list is supposed to be light and easy to read, and that's just adding extra characters for no real benefit. "General Information" could work, as it would be more descriptive than "General". I don't see the benefit of "Mods" to "Modding", but perhaps "Mods & Modding" is the way to go, so neither is excluded. If we want to distinguish from in-game books, perhaps "Novels & Guides" or something, but I was trying to keep to the actual page names as closely as possible. Adding "Ch.1" to Morrowind is incorrect, so I can't agree with that. "DLCs" is bad grammar, but "DLC Packs" per a suggestion further up would work. --Enodoc (talk) 10:32, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

() How about something like this? Another option is creating a new portal for all the spin-off games, and simply adding a link to "Other Games". The gadget version of the sidebar could retain the expanded submenus for the main series games, with links to all of the minor add-ons, and all spin-offs under "Other Games".

Alternatively, we could condense it even further by having small "add-ons" links next to the name of each game. PS: In regards to name spaces, I'm of the opinion that the Mod namespaces should be merged (there are only about five articles total in each, if that) and that expansion namespaces should be merged (they have too much overlap with the main game namespaces anyway). I expect this isn't a popular opinion though, and also probably suited for its own topic. --Dorsal Axe (talk) 10:07, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

The sidebar doesn't support multiple links in one line. An Other Games portal could work, as it would save having one thing in the sidebar be a non-link, but it might not see much traffic as it's not as explanatory as All Content, which includes all those things anyway. --Enodoc (talk) 10:48, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Assistance Required[edit]

Vandal requires blocking. Thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 10:47, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

The vandal has finally been blocked, thanks to Dwarfmp. It seems Dragon Guard, Fullerton, and I agree that we need more blockers. —Dillonn241 (talk) 12:06, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
Huh, I totally intended to put this on AN. I guess the current events threw my concentration somewhat, but I also agree that we need more blockers and will be putting myself forward this afternoon. --Enodoc (talk) 15:40, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
I've given Enodoc blocker rights. —Legoless (talk) 16:32, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
Great, thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 16:50, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

() This is only partially related, but after noticing that vandal's username, I happened to remember that the account User:Example has not been registered yet. Should someone register that account before it's potentially used for vandalism? It would be less than ideal to have to put a block message on that account when its userpage and talk page are supposed to be free for testing purposes. Forfeit (talk) 20:20, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

That and Administrator should probably be included in the Titleblacklist mediawiki page. Variants of Administrator should be disabled, while only that singular Example should be prevented. If I remember correctly the ban can be overridden by anyone with tb-override privileges. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:58, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
Done. Robin Hood  (talk) 00:23, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Online Non-Relevant NPCs[edit]

Someone had to bring this issue up and since Morrowind has been out for a while, I figure now is an okay time. The problem, of course, is that this wiki has over 15,000 pages about people in ESO, despite a large percentage of them having no relevance or importance at all. A similar situation exists in TES III with many NPCs having no unique dialogue, related quests, etc. The only difference between them and a generic NPC is their name.

Therefore, I propose that NPCs with no unique dialogue, related quests, services, or conversations with others (possibly more things?) should NOT have a page. These links still need to exist, of course, but as redirects to a page listing their names and stats. We can follow TES III's format in almost all cases. I'm quite certain this can be accomplished using a bot. Every page converted into a redirect should get the category Online-Non Relevant NPCs.

The main obstacle I see with this change is a massive collection of NPC images. Fortunately, a lot of these are incomplete for non-relevant NPCs, but we shouldn't just delete all that hard work. Because we would have pages like Morrowind:People in Balmora, one solution is to add the images for the listed NPCs in a gallery below. The purpose of this post is to start a conversation; I'm not going to plan out every detail because we need consensus first. I hope we can all agree that the current method of documenting Online NPCs is crazy and impractical for both users and editors. —Dillonn241 (talk) 00:16, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Anything that reduces the number of pages in Online space is a good move. We should have a look at what else can be composited into tables as well; all those provisioning and alchemy products and ingredients, for example. --Enodoc (talk) 00:27, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Being an advocate of reducing the number of Morrowind non-relevants, I must oppose this. The main problem is where to draw the line. The line for Morrowind isn't a good one, as evidenced by the number of supposed non-relevants that are actually not when looking closely. I won't argue that a number of NPCs in Online are little more than moving physical objects, but most of them can talk with others and have their own schedules (they don't just randomly walk around). The only line for relevancy should come at interaction. If you can do anything with an NPC, talk, steal, kill, they should have a page, but I don't support any line at all. Even most named enemy NPCs in Online have a story, which would go untold were they reduced to a line on a table. The only negative to the amount of pages is the random page button which only selects from full articles, but Online far outstrips every other game in every area (books, places, quests, NPCs), that the benefit of removing at best a few thousand articles would be negligible. PS Should this folly be undertaken, the gallery of NPC images is a good idea, I would like to see it for Morrowind so long as there exists undocumented NPCs. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:08, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Silencer. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 20:10, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
I agree; where do we draw the line when it comes to relevance? We already have all the articles. I don't see the point in tabulating them at this stage. ESO is a big game and will never be fully documented (e.g. the pre-Update 6 NPCs which are now lost). I think we should be more concerned with trying to document info in the simplest way possible, and drawing arbitrary lines in the sand as to what NPC gets an article seems like unnecessary work to me. If we end up with empty stubs because of it, so be it. I don't see that as a major concern for ONspace or the wiki. —Legoless (talk) 20:17, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
I'll just repeat what I said on the Discord: Do these NPCs have unique dialogue (I haven't played ESO that much)? Because if they all really have some unique feature going on, then I agree with Silencer. However, if most dialogue and interactions are just pulled from some large randomized database, then I don't really see the point and will side with Enodoc and Dillon. ----Ilaro (talk) 20:43, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
If NPCs have schedules in ESO, then they should all be documented without question. This immediately makes them much more relevant than the non-relevant's in Morrowind as characters in Morrowind don't have schedules aside from randomly wandering around their spawning location or standing still. Because of these schedule details, the article will actually be able to have some substance, whereas for a Morrowind non-relevant your best case scenario still looks completely empty like this. Aside from this, the appearance of characters in ESO are much more unique than the characters in Morrowind, where there were only a handful of options for the faces of characters and even clothing options were usually pretty similar (a lot of unremarkable Dunmer hostile bandits all wearing netch leather for example). Forfeit (talk) 21:18, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
While I actually very strongly support reducing the Online page count, and trying to boldly improve this namespace, I think the opposers bring up valid points. Summarizing my thoughts:
I would not mind tabulating and I'm positive that finding where to draw that line would not be that complicated either. Editors who work on these pages likely already have a similar idea about where the line goes, because there are, practically, not so many different ways to go about this
For me Justice Neutral (aka killable/stealable) and a schedule are not valid attributes for deciding the relevancy for Online NPCs because these are very generic/limited in ESO. The Justice Neutral aspects are easily and neatly documented, as we can see on individual pages already. Regarding advanced schedules, I do not believe I've seen many, if any? They usually repeat quick, simple things like walking back and forth, walking and sitting, then standing up. I mean, this is hardly even a schedule. And ESO NPCs do not have a daily schedule with sleeping/awake timers, do they? Anyways, if the NPC-s can be talked to or have any inter-NPC dialogue, they would deserve their own page. That's about it. (I should maybe also point out that, if you DO add Justice Neutrality and those small limited schedules to the "relevancy", then you will end up with very, very few NPCs in your "non-relevant" category. That eliminates the whole purpose of reducing page numbers.)
However, the practical part of how to create and fill the tables is a much bigger concern for me. Adding to this, filling in these small NPC pages is quite quick. And most of the pages are already created. These are the main reasons why I'd support the opposing side right now.
Still, I need to point out one problem which annoys me, namely that the big NPC categories are very large and thus more or less useless if you for example want to work systematically with pages that are missing information. For example "NPC stubs", "NPc needing images" or "empty NPC". I've worked a bit on the empty creature/place/quest categories, and also creature/place/quest images, but the NPC equivalents are just impossible. Well, you might find this a minor issue, but I just wanted to mention it :) Tib (talk) 21:41, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

() Just for the sake of example, here's a completely random useless NPC: Anatole Thenitte. There's thousands of pages just like that one, with basically no information and little more that can be said about them (apart from, in that particular case, their Reaction, which would go in the infobox anyway). We can keep all the relevant information from that page (the stuff that's in the infobox) by putting it in a table, which would take up considerably less space than an entire page for the same info:

Name Home City Race Gender Health Reaction
Anatole Thenitte Daggerfall Breton Male 227 (?)

And with a table you'd be able to get a glance of all NPCs in the city at once, rather than having to pop into each and every page, which is useful if, for example, you were looking for all the people in the city with a specific Pickpocket difficulty or Profession. --Enodoc (talk) 22:07, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not really a fan of the idea of tabulating the NPC data. One thing I'd like to point out is that there are NPCs who might not have unique dialogue but are notable in other ways, like being mentioned by other NPCs or books, or being someone important. A good example is Sibyl Augustine Viliane: she does not have any dialogue and doesn't even move much, but she is the Sibyl of Dibella, and was featured in Loremaster's Archive. I'm afraid that if we arranged NPCs into tables, such info could be lost, and the NPCs would lose their individuality. Another thing is the pictures: with separate articles, I can easily check out what a NPC looks like (if a picture exists); browsing a gallery full of NPC pictures to find a concrete one would feel rather messy. And with the amount of effort that such a rearrangement would require, I really can't see the point. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 22:36, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
When I read the opening post, I pretty much agreed with the proposition of recducing NPC pages and tabulating certain NPC data. This began to change when I read the valid arguments in the opposing posts. Now, after spending quite a few hours of observing "non-relevant" NPCs, I am opposing the idea completely. We should be very cautious about destubbing NPC pages, marking NPCs as having no unique dialoge or categorizing them as being "non-relevant".
The amount of (named) NPCs who actually just say "Hello", "Hm", "Yes", "Greetings" etc. is comparatively small. Most of the green, friendly NPCs have a dialogue option and therefore unique dialogue. More than half of the JN NPCs also have a dialogue option, and many of the other JN NPCs have dialogue that comes from a database, but it's far from being randomized – it's a fixed selection of dialogue that follows certain parameters which we still need to understand. Factors are race and occupation, then there are variations which can be described as friendly, annoyed, flirtatious etc. Instead of just calling all these dialogues "non-unique", we should do the uesp thing ... Collect the lines, find out the underlying mechanics and create a page like Skyrim:Guard Dialogue.
Also, most NPCs have "schedules". They don't just stand there or walk around randomly or use animation markers indistinctively. Their locations, the groups they gather in, their walking paths, the items they use, the NPCs they observe and talk to – it's all part of their story and the story of their environment.
Some NPCs have greetings as the player passes by, some are muttering to themselves, some can be heard shouting to the public from afar. I have observed quite a number of NPCs without unique dialogue suddenly starting a unique conversation with another NPC, and most of them haven't been mentioned in their articles. One of the few scenes that I found documented was the conversation between Climbs Trees and Molwen. It can be assumed that there are many more of these conversations that just haven't been discovered and documented yet. As we have no way of checking the game data for such convos as we had with the CK, this means a lot of in-game double-checking and verifying, keeping in mind that JN NPCs can be killed by other players so that they might not be around for a while.
Presenting NPC data in table entries also reduces the chance to actually find the NPCs in the vast ESO cities. If an NPC cannot be found in an interior location and is not a vendor at his stall, the information “can be found in <city name>” is not helpful, it's just not enough. These sentences should be extended so that they specify the location by pointing out a nearby house or city gate – or the NPC's schedule/route.
Of course, I'd also like to see a light at the end of the tunnel, and I'd like to mention at least one way to reduce the number of needed NPC images: I think the extension of pages like Daggerfall Guard is unnecessary. Do we really need images of all gender and race variations of unnamed NPCs? --Holomay (talk) 22:58, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
Ha, Holomay expressed my concerns much better than I did in my post myself. I completely agree! --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 01:02, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
After reading all of these replies, I think it's clear that the term "non-relevant" is unclear, and the task of determining who fits the definition I first proposed may be futile. Since we're obviously keeping all the NPC pages, I agree with Holomay that they need more detail on location and behavior.
On a somewhat related note, we still need tables of people on place pages, similar to Online:Bleakrock Village. As Tib pointed out, the current categories are almost useless with the number of pages. —Dillonn241 (talk) 03:02, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

() Well hold on now! I will never in my life support that we should document more of these NPCs than what we already have done. That's going into a detail that is just nonsensical.

Holomay, to meet your comment with an example, let's take Belkarth. Belkarth has a full list of documented NPCs, including images, attributes and dialogue. (Looking back, I see that a few details, like who is simply standing, and who was actually drunk dancing are missing). So feel free to use Belkarth people as a sorts of an example; we can also pull some rough numbers from there. We have 94 entries in the Online:Belkarth#Belkarth People section (counting guards as only one entry). Of these 94, quickly glancing over I'd say between 20-25% are ones with no dialogue. And no, they do not have any interesting schedule. So I would support that we mark these NPCs in that table with italics, and I really do strongly think that this documenting is sufficient. Anyways, 20-25% is not that small section - of 15 000 NPCs that would make 3000-4000 pages. (Add single-line dialogues and traders/merchants - like guild traders who almost always do not have unique dialogue, as we have seen-, and you will end up with maybe 10% of NPCs who actually have a bit of depth :P) Tib (talk) 09:19, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I think this is a pretty good example for what I had in mind! - If my count is right, of these 94 there are 27 NPCs without unique dialogue, and there are even many generic lines listed. Their location is specified, there's a description of what they're doing, what group they are part of, where they are patrolling, or even that they have a certain number of fixed begging spots. Of these 27 NPCs, 7 are guild traders, so we end up with 20 NPCs without any "function" or unique dialogue, but why should they be marked with italics? Petronius Libo is the tavern's bard, Orenwen is a member of the Star-Gazers, for example - which brings us quickly back to a discussion about where to draw a line. Isn't it sufficient to mark the vendors and quest-specific NPCs as we do now instead of marking "unimportant" NPCs? (Btw I'm afraid I don't understand your number of "10% of NPCs who actually have a bit of depth". 67 of the 94 NPCs have unique dialoge, so I think that does give them a bit of depth!?) --Holomay (talk) 10:11, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
I would much rather find any way possible to reduce the total number of pages, but if the pages are all staying then there's no point whatsoever in italicising some entries in the table, as that distinction is specifically to identify pages which do not exist. The pages which would not exist were to be exactly those for non-relevant NPCs, so if all pages are staying, the "non-relevant NPCs" distinction does also not exist, and there's therefore nothing to italicise. --Enodoc (talk) 11:29, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

On the inclusion of linebreaks in ESO dialogue[edit]

So, after an inconclusive debate on the Discord server, I'm going to put a vote on here for editors to voice their opinion and to hopefully reach a consensus. Linebreaks are a common feature in ESO dialogue, and a clash recently came about over if linebreaks should be used or not on the Midyear Mayhem quest page.

These two examples below are to help you visualise the problem:

Is that what this crowd is doing?
"Indeed! Shortly after we parleyed with your commander, Her Reverence began giving her blessings.
It’s quite popular! All the soldiers want double rewards for their efforts on the battlefield."

The above example uses a linebreak, between blessings. and It's. Whilst the example below does not feature a linebreak, it instead uses a space to replace the linebreak. The example below is what is currently on the quest page:

Is that what this crowd is doing?
"Indeed! Shortly after we parleyed with your commander, Her Reverence began giving her blessings. It's quite popular! All the soldiers want double rewards for their efforts on the battlefield."

The main reason why I want to make this point is that linebreaks are featured in the game files (en.lang), and if, as a wiki, we are to truly catalogue the dialogue that is found in-game, I believe that it would be best to respect the formatting choice that the game uses by featuring the linebreaks, alongside the text and punctuation that is featured too. This is sticking true to what is seen in-game [4] which I think should take precedence over not including linebreaks for the sake of making the articles seen as more compact with less lines, and because of this, I think that the linebreaks should be consistently included in our articles which quote dialogue. In addition, discussion on the Discord found that linebreaks were often used instead of commas and were commonly featured to separate points being made by the NPC. Regardless of qualms over the potential lack of commas that could have been used instead, the linebreaks serve a purpose to make it easier to read and understand for the player, so it is not a worthless or trivial aspect in that sense, and I believe this can very much be reflected on our wiki pages. Furthermore, by omitting the linebreak in favor of a space, then as a reader we would never know if there was originally a linebreak at all, whereas if we were to record the dialogue with the linebreaks as shown in the files and in-game, then it is clear where linebreaks have been used.

This is an example from the Beggar Matthew NPC page, which shows the linebreaks being used similarly to commas, highlighting how they have a purpose:

"Murder! My friends are already dead, but the watch doesn't care. What's one less beggar? We're nothing to them.
But if someone found the killer...."
Where should I start looking?
"Start in the trade district alleys. That's where Old Gianne was murdered just yesterday.
Maybe Lieutenant Dubois will give you a reward if you do his job for him."

Whilst dialogue is featured on some ESO pages already, I find it often to be incomplete and not filled in from the en.lang files. I believe that coming out of this with a concrete policy on if linebreaks should be used or not would be better for editors to understand contrary to a case-by-case basis, and hopefully avoid future conflicts from editors who have differing thoughts, but if there was a page where the dialogue would somehow seem incompatible with featuring linebreaks, then that can be discussed between the editors and staff to settle a possible exception. Before large quantities of ESO dialogue are recorded on the wiki, I believe it is also important to overcome this issue before too many articles have dialogue sections that need amending.

So, ultimately, I am for linebreaks to be used if they are part of the dialogue featured in-game and in the files, and should be included wherever relevant dialogue is quoted on the wiki, whether that be on quest articles that feature it, or if it is on the NPC articles themselves in the dialogue sections. Let me know what you guys think, and if you support or oppose this notion, so we can hopefully come to some sort of consensus. Thanks! - KriHavok (talk) 20:43, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

I replaced your NewLeft templates with correct coding, as NewLefts are not used for that kind of separation and may cause your post look different to what the pages would look like with your examples. I vote against using linebreaks. In other games "line breaks" are done through more common subtitling, and in the data a lot of dialogue is split between separate entries, yet spoken one line after the other. When it comes to writing this on our pages we just write it as one big long line of dialogue, as nothing in writing can replicate that empty space that is sometimes left for effect when lines are spoken. And while we are an encyclopedia, we do not follow a line where we replicate the data as closely as possible, our purpose is to turn the data into understandable and digestible text. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:09, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the input The Silencer! Perhaps it is just a subjective thing, but I actually think having the linebreaks makes more for understandable and digestible text, as is what I believe was ZOS' intention of using them. In my opinion, having the big long line of dialogue is not as neat as having the dialogue broken up into smaller consecutive chunks, where each chunk is where a different point is made by the NPC, usually (see the use of linebreaks instead of potential commas above). I think having the longer line of dialogue makes the dialogue less easy to read and doesn't flow as well as having the text structured with linebreaks, as if we are talking about quoted dialogue here, then personally to me as a reader, it is easier to read down shorter lines rather than along a longer line, but again this might just be subjective to me. And I agree in the majority of cases, we do not intend to replicate data as closely as possible, but in the case of where dialogue is usually featured, it is quoted (a lot of the time word-for-word), on quest pages, and moreso on NPC pages where it is listed in a separate section with the editor making comments on how/where the dialogue can be heard, and if it is related to a quest or not, etc. So what I am saying, is that this may be one of those scenarios where we do replicate the data as it is displayed in-game and in the files but, it is then our job to make the comments about the dialogue and give the necessary contextualisation. That way, we document like an encyclopedia, but we also foremost comment on and contextualise the dialogue just like a wiki, whilst (in my opinion) also making it easier to read on the eyes and allows the dialogue to flow in the way the developers wanted it to. KriHavok (talk) 17:56, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Personally I generally prefer the dialogue in-line, for ease of presentation over accurate recreation of the in-game formatting. This is easier to apply to any dialogue format, whether that be the conversation approach or the prose approach, whereas broken dialogue, particularly in prose, would look very odd. I think linear dialogue also flows better conversationally, as your eyes don't have to keep dropping lines, and on narrow screens the number of line breaks could very quickly result in numerous part-length lines, unnecessarily extending the page.
Incidentally, if anyone's looking for the previous discussion on dialogue formatting, it's here; broken vs. linear dialogue was mentioned but never expanded upon. --Enodoc (talk) 21:15, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
I prefer having linebreaks for the reasons KriHavok pointed out. It's similar to how I'm adding dialogue for Redguard NPCs; each subtitle gets its own line as you can see here. The main advantage is to keep the dialogue readable, instead of a large block of text. —Dillonn241 (talk) 03:01, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
I much prefer having linebreaks, also due to the reasons KriHavok's already mentioned. —Fullertontalk﴿ 03:41, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

() It doesn't really matter much in my opinion. We seldom have longer monologues, which means omitting line breaks makes little difference to how the text looks visually. The dialogues are short, not prompting any special need for format. As Silencer and Enodoc point out, there is no real value to strictly replicating this part of the data. If anything, I'd perhaps keep the line breaks because they're already used... However, I havent used "br", but been writing them like this:

Your line.
"NPC line 1.
NPC line 2 including the break."
Your line.

Tib (talk) 20:45, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Online Quest Project[edit]

Hi everyone! Today I've created a new project for the wiki, the Online Quest Project. Basically it's just a project to create and complete pages for all quests in ESO. If you have any feedback or suggestions on what could be added to the project page please don't hesistate to tell me! AlphaAbsol (talk) 02:30, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Looks good! It might be worth splitting the writing tasks (and associated categorization) into three sections, so it's clear what still needs to be done;
  • Quick Reference (this would include both the Quest Header and Quick Walkthrough)
  • Detailed Walkthrough
  • Quest Stages
When I'm starting with a bunch of undocumented quests, which either have no page at all or an "empty" quest page, my primary objective is to get a Quest Header and Quick Walkthrough done for as many quests as possible; a bit of documentation for everything is better than full documentation for only some. After that, you may well have different people who would be interested in writing the detailed walkthrough or finding the quest stages, so if it was split into three you wouldn't get one person thinking they had to do everything, and you would also get a better idea of what each page needs. --Enodoc (talk) 15:54, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I'd just like to ask for a reconsideration of the abbreviation for disambiguation from our Oblivion projects. Oblivion has a mix of "O" and "OB" abbreviations for it's projects, and any future ones should be "OB", so all ESO projects should either use "ON" or even "ESO". It's not a major thing but the abbreviations are used outside of the individual namespaces so it would be helpful to avoid potential confusion. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 16:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
This is a great initiative, AlphaAbsol. I've got some rough tracking of the quests in Craglorn, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood and Morrowind in my sandbox - if you need, feel free to use that information. I *might* try to write some walkthroughs of the shorter quests, but apart from that I'll likely work on the other parts of the quest pages, as I've done so far. Tib (talk) 16:58, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I am severely disappointed in your lack of a project ribbon :P You should check out this site for some good, free ribbons to use. :) Jeancey (talk) 18:34, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I agree with The Silencer, ESOQP or ONQP would be a better acronym to avoid confusion. The project itself looks good though! Might want to make the link to Template:Online Journal Entries more prominent, since that's probably the most complex templating involved. There's also no mention of quest images and how to handle them (e.g. galleries vs Detailed Walkthrough section). —Legoless (talk) 18:37, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I'm going to rename the project to ONQP, and I'll also find a ribbon! As for images, that is one thing that I did forget to add, which I realised later on when I wrote a page.
Also Enodoc, that's a really good idea; after all it's probably more important to finish all the quick references before moving on to the detailed walkthroughs. I'm going to rework the page and template to add that in. AlphaAbsol (talk) 21:26, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

() I propose Enobot rename the template and update the pages. Jeancey (talk) 22:31, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I've put in a bot request to rename all the templates. If Enobot gets approved it can do it as its first project! AlphaAbsol (talk) 07:39, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Ad Feedback Needed[edit]

We've been using the Curse ad network for the past two months and I'd like to get some feedback in order to see if we should keep using it. Besides general feedback a few specific answers I'm looking for include:

  • Have you noticed any change in the ads in the past 2 months?
  • Have you seen any ads with inappropriate content?
  • Have you encountered any auto-playing or auto-scrolling ads?

Any other feedback on the site's ads is welcome. -- Daveh (talk) 20:05, 16 August 2017 (UTC)