UESP Forums

Greetings, everyone. I have a little problem here. Recently, I've reinstalled this awesome game, and started a character. I'm planning on getting more into it, rather than what I used to do. Basically, back in the days I played this, I rolled characters with Heavy Armour, Blade, Block, and Restoration, and a bunch of other majors, but these were just always there. Once all these got to 100 and I had decent daedric equipment, my character was practically invincible. Or so I thought... invincible, until I raise the difficulty to max, then 2-3 city guards would take me down with ease.

So now that I want to play again, I'd like to create a stronger character, that's able to mass slaughter, even on higher difficulty levels.

I've read up on the leveling system in the official manuals, but it's really vague, so I looked here at first instead.

One thing I didn't notice back then was how inefficient my leveling was. I didn't really care about bonuses, and I simply ignored Luck, as an attribute that may be useful.

Here's my character, that I created now.

Male Breton
Warrior birth sign(for endurance boost)
Favourite attributes: Luck and Endurance
Combat spec.
Majors:
Blunt
Armorer
Light armour
Hand to hand
Alteration
Sneak
Marksman

I looked at the OCP but it was complete nonsense. Keeping Restoration at 15 until level 28 is outright impossible, IMO, especially since it said to keep alchemy at 10 until max level (47). So that means until level 28 I can't heal myself at all. That's just a joke.

Another thing is that by the starting stats of my majors, my maximum level would be 51. It's only 47 if I max out all attributes before maxing out the majors. But wouldn't it be more efficient, if I skipped on a few bonuses, or kept them at +3 instead of +5, so that my majors and attributes max out at the same time? Of course I'm not talking about Endurance here, which is obviously necessary to max as soon as possible. I'd just rather have +4 levels with +40 HPs and delay the maxing of Speed or Personality which have little to no effect on combat. Or would this +4 levels make the enemies significantly stronger, that it's no longer worth it?

Anyway, looking at the OCP table, I can see that Destruction, which is governed by Willpower too, stays at level 5 all the way until max level. I'd find it a lot easier actually, to not care about wasting Willpower bonuses and just let Restoration skyrocket(obviously, with these majors I need to heal a lot, even against a single enemy), and then when I'm leveling Willpower I'd just use Destruction for the +5 bonuses instead. Since my starting Willpower value is 50, that means I need an exact 100 points in skill increases to max it out. 95 of that would be covered from destruction, and the remaining 5 could be achieved with Alteration, which is one of my majors that I won't use until this time anyway.

The other thing is Speed. The OCP suggests to keep athletics at 10 until level 21. So I guess I should only be walking until then. Which is again, ludicrous. On the other hand, my acrobatics would stay at 5 until the end(HOW? JUST HOW?) So again I think it would be a more real strategy to just ignore this athletics stuff and later I can jump around, until then I will jump as few times as it is possible. Since light armour is a major, and also governed by speed, I think I can still max out Speed even like this.

So theorytically it seems completely possible to deviate massively from the OCP and still level my character efficiently(in fact, strategically it seems impossible to follow what the OCP suggests) And my question is whether I'm missing something or not.

Any advice is appreciated.

My character is only level 2, so if I screwed up something big time, feel free to let me know, as now I wouldn't really mind rerolling so early on.

I play on max difficulty all the way through. Your character does 1/6th damage with spells and weapons and the opponents do 6 times normal damage. So, you won't be doing any "mass slaughter" ever at max difficulty. The best way to stay ahead is with poisons, which do not lose damage effect. You might want to take alchemy as a major to replace hand-to-hand, which is useless.

Skills have a natural ceiling of 100 (master-level). If your character has a weapon and armor skill that is 100, then your opponent can not be stronger than you, because that is the highest skill level (although they will be doing x6 damage if you choose to go max difficulty). I've never used the OCP, so I don't know what that is supposed to do for you. I just level my character with 2's or 3's in 3 attributes and max out the level with the last attribute. This gives me a character with 600+ health and 100s in everything but Luck.

Luck is of no use to me. Luck will not give me a skill bonus to any skill over 100 and I don't need a boost for skills that I don't use. So I don't waste any points leveling Luck.

So. What you're saying is that if I have a 100 in destruction, then increasing Luck won't lower the spell cost any more? I really don't know because I have never leveled Luck either, but as I was reading up here, everyone kept suggesting to max it.

The reduction comes until you max out a magic skill. So if Destruction is 100, you don't get a reduction. The Luck bonus only applies until the ceiling of 100 is reached and you don't get any of the skill perks by having enough Luck bonus.

Interesting, then that means the attriubte is practically useless after you max out every skill you use, except for acrobatics(which, as far as I know, doesn't peak at 100 in the aspect how it reduces fall damage) I wonder then why is there this obsession over Luck. Is it just because it looks cool to have every attribute maxed then, or what?

Pretty much. Luck was dominant in Morrowind. They totally reversed that in Oblivion.

Every 5 points of Luck over the default 50 effectively adds a +2 to all Skills.

So if you have a Blade Skill of 25, and a Luck Stat of 55, your damage with a blade would be calculated as if your Blade Skill was 27.

The opposite is also true (I think). Any reductions to Luck reduce your Skill's effectiveness. A Luck of 45 would cause your 25 in Blade to count as a 23 instead.

Luck is...pretty useless I suppose. At 100 Luck, your all of your Skills will be effectively boosted by 10 levels. However since Luck can only be increase by +1 at every level up, by the time you get 100 Luck most of your Skills will have been mastered by then.

I can't speak to the harder game play, but in general:

Build your bonuses with skills you use a lot, not majors. Major skills must be controllable if you want your +5 bonuses (and easy to build for convenience).

The important catagories to build are endurance (every level until you get it to 100). Willpower because you need Destruction high for enchanted weapons and custom spells. Intelligence because you need magic to cast those spells. ---Strength comes next. You probably need to carry stuff to keep sane. For Bretons it is good to alternate strength building levels with Intelligence building levels. For Nords you can let strength wait a while.

Everything else can wait until you have Willpower and Intelligence around 80.

I build my heavy armor to 65 in the sewers (may not be possible on the harder settings). Then starting at level 2, I start building armorer as fast as possible (buy 5 lessons every level if I can afford them--on top of repair points). I use the rest of heavy armor to make my ten points and +5 in Endurance each level. Block is my major skill in that catagory to use or not use as needed to level up.

I build Destruction to about 25 in level one, and Alteration to +10. Alteration is my major skill in that catagory and I use it pretty exclusively to level up for the first several levels. I do not touch Restoration. Waiting for one hour restores health quickly(just walk back a few feet to get out of a danger zone), potions are used in emergencies. I try to build destruction by 10 each level after that, and Alteration by 10 if I can. Then when I run out of destruction and alteration points, I have resoration still at rock bottom and it will build fast to get those last couple +5 bonuses. That is not a problem for Bretons, who start with a lot of Willpower, but it is for Nords who start very low.

Mysticism is my major skill in Intelligence (to have soul trap). I build Alchemy 10-15 pts per level when I want +5 in Intelligence. That gets me light weight (0.1 vs 0.5) feather and health potions. I do not touch Conjuration until I absolutely need it to level up (but for a Breton who starts with high intelligence, you could use it all you want. I rarely touch Mystecism.

Sneak is my major skill in Agility. Starting at 25 is good and Bad guys don't hear well until about level 12, so I just walk barefoot instead of sneaking. It also builds well whan buying 5 points of archery skill, and it is easier to build than security.

Mercantile must be a minor "free" skill.
Athletics must be a minor "free" skill.

Light armor is easier to control and build than jumping, so it is a good major skill.

Speachcraft is easy but boring to build so I usually have Illusion as my never touched major skill in that catagory.

Blade is your free skill to build +10 each level for your +5 in Strength. Keep blunt low until you need easy points to make your strength bonus. Hand to hand is the major skill and builds pretty easily (faster than blunt or blade) when you need some points to level up.

Once I have Armorer to 75, I start buying lessons for Marksmanship and building Agility (around level 12).

Nothing else matters to your survival.

Endurance = health, which builds like compound interest in your bank account so yoou want it as high as fast as possible.
Willpower = spell power, spell cost, and enchanted weapon power
Intelligence = number of spells you can cast
Strength = carrying things (convenience, not survival when using custom enchanted swords) if you are using poisons you might want to build marksmanship/agility instead of strength.

Go to the Aetherius stone by Bleak Flats cave and get its spell as soon as your reknown hits 20. It will let you enchant items with +24 magicka which will take some of the pressure off.
The jone stone further north (reknown =10) has an invisibility spell), and the tower stone across the bay from the waterfront fast travel point has open hard lock and Master armorer spells.

I am playing a Nord now with The Lover birthsign. The 10 sec paralyze spell plus the 30 pt Nord snowball spell greater power helped me get through tight spots in the first couple of levels. 50 pts magic from the Mage birthsign would have helped too. The bonuses from other birthsigns (+ endurance, +speed, etc) cut down your maximum possible number of levels and don't have immediate benefit for your survival. I paralyzed and killed the big ogre holding the Honorblade in level 1, but a half dozen extra "weak fireballs" would have had the same result.

I found the Nord easier to build than my Bretons, but he seems to get damaged more easily, which is odd since his health is so much higher. Maybe I just watch my Bretons more closely.

At Level 5 do the Namiras shrine quest and the bravil Maglir fighter's guild quest for good protection rings. Do Fighter's guild Harlan's Watch at level 10 for another good ring, and Meridia's shrine quest for a 35% chameleon ring.

hope this helps.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I meant that you need Destruction (a willpower trait) at a certain level to qualify to use weakness spells in your weapon enchantments and custom spells. Apprentice for element weakness amd jouneyman for weaknes to magic. Trying to make custom spells more powerful may push them up a level beyond your capability. Journeyman ingredients can make an expert level spell.

I see now that spell cost is determined by the skill level not the attribute level. I build them together so I never noticed the difference.

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.

I'm currently level 5 with my character. I replaced Hand-to-Hand with Alchemy, and Sneak with Mysticism. I go around in Heavy Amour and with a Bow, so I level Endurance and Agility currently. (I decided I'd stick with Luck as a third one, because it's fun). I still have no idea how you guys play without using restoration, I mean... "emergency potions" run out like after a single Oblivion gate, so whatever... (when 2 clanfear runts are hitting me, a dremora churl is on me with a scamp he summoned, I don't know how should I avoid getting hit. Seems practically impossible. And those clanfears hit pretty hard). But it's okay. I don't really use anything else, besides my bow, my heavy armour, and restoration to heal myself. Alteration is a major, and Destruction is still ~10 so I guess maxing Willpower won't be such a big issue. Right now I don't really need it.

What's difficult about this is that my Agility started at 30. And I use Marksman to improve that, and to level up. My Marksman will reach 100 way before my Agility, and even before Endurance hits 100. So that means, that when it happens(Marksman hits 100) I'd have to use Armourer to level up and gather those remaining Endurance points, and I'd use Sneak to still get the Agility bonus. That's going to be quite the challenge to level up a character like that

Oh, also. Keep in mind that this is an archer character. It'll basically be a stealth assassin once I maxed the things necessary. I'm not going to get involved with Mage's guild stuff so I could care less about Destruction and Spellmaking. Transcendent Sigil stones will have what I want later on for enchants.

Sorry, can't help with the beating you are taking. The game is tough and you have to do certain things to make it easy. You have to be able to kill up close and do it efficiently. Marine scout snipers are marines first and foremost. They went through boot camp and become hardcore bayonet/knife fighters and grenade throwers before going to sniper school to become good sneaks. They go back to camp and train their hand to hand skills when they are not out on the job in the bush.


Sorry to be so blunt, but...

You do not want to do seven fairly simple quests for the mages guild, so you are stuck with bows that won't kill anything (even with transcendent sigil stones). Bows are toys. You need big spells and/or enchanted melee weapons to save your butt when bad guys get close (as you found out in the oblivion gate).

Armorer and marksmanship are the two worst skills you could have chose for majors. Both are so hard to build that you have to buy lessons. You can't even help out the armorer because you are not using melee weapons or corrode armor spells, so you have nothing to fix

You are screwed with the alchemy as well. You won't be able to use any good potions/poisons until long after you finish building your marksmanship skills because they are both majors and will level you up if you try using them both at the same time.


"(when 2 clanfear runts are hitting me, a dremora churl is on me with a scamp he summoned, I don't know how should I avoid getting hit. Seems practically impossible. And those clanfears hit pretty hard)."

You blast them with custom spells when they run towars you and then kill them with your custom enchanted sword if they make it. And you don't let all three get close to you at the same time unless it is the battle for kvatch, which takes more potions than usual. Bows are good for drawing things away from crowds so you can kill them one on one.

I disagree that bows don't kill anything. I pulled off the entire Arena without the use of potions or chameleon or anything else. Just my bow and my heavy raiment, and restoration, which is about 40 right now, so not even that high. And I only have a [&@%!] Steel bow... Still two shots are usually enough for necromancers. I was exploring and accidentally bumped into 3 minotaurs accompanied by a badass unicorn and shot them down, though it took quite a while. Really now that my heavy armour is leveling, even the clanfears are getting less of a pain. Still need to heal, but not all the time. Usually only when I'm purposely leveling my heavy armour, since it always falls behind marksman(Most of the enemies are stunted scamps which don't get the chance to hit me, unless I allow them) I also disagree that I don't have anything to repair. The bow is losing durability at an infuriating rate. So much, that I keep three bows. One enchanted for ghosts and tough fights, and two normal bows because they wear off so badly. Meanwhile, I'm leveling my heavy armour, obviously that means the armour is wearing off. I also have a bit of a collection of my used Iron armours in the Arena that are waiting there to be repaired by my armourer skills. Of course I have to repair the bows now at a smith, because I don't yet level it.

I only do not want to do the 7 simple Mage's guild quests simply because it would be out of the role of my character. Yes, I want to build a strong character, but that doesn't mean I completely skip on roleplaying. It'd cut the fun in half. I mean. Everyone can level up destruction to 100, create big boom spells, and watch everything die. It's ridiculously easy. Just get entrance to the arcane university, create a 1 dmg fire ball spell, ducktape the C button, and then head out for a coffee. Check back in every once in a while to make sure you don't waste Willpower points. There, you have it. And it would be no problem if my character were a master wizard, but he's not. He's an Assassin with Seer capabilities.

Heres an idea, why not just pick the skills you want and play the game naturally, then if its getting too tough due to the level curve turn the difficulty down? Jeez min maxing is so dull.

Well, if you prefer to train in a less masochistic fashion, then brew up a Damage Speed poison, pick up a plinky little bow and go Ogre hunting.

Find the Ogre. Poison the Ogre. Then shoot basic firebolts at your brand new training dummy.

Ogres are slow to begin with, and they have a weakness to poison. So, even a single shot with a somewhat weak Damage Speed poison puts them into a halt.

Sure, hurting yourself is safer and convenient, but nowhere near as fun. This is a game, after all.

The OCP is great, but it has the oddest idea about the order of training particular skills. You're right, it's completely unnatural and kinda silly to be running around with no Restoration skill whatsoever.

I've been doing Efficient Levelling for a while. and are my two Efficiently Levelled characters. Azzam, the Redguard, has ever - they are all skills that I don't use (or use very little) in normal play, that I can deliberately choose to use when he has his +10 in each of three Attributes and it's time to level up.

I either choose which Attributes I want to level up at the start of the level, or play naturally for a while and then look to see which skills I've increased. I don't use the OCP ideas at all, since I prefer to increase all of my Attributes together (with the exception of Personality, due to a certain quest which requires it to be low).

I wrote a bit about Efficient Levelling , although that isn't the post I remember making .