User talk:Nephele/Archive-2008-05

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Very minor issue...[edit]

...but why the undo on It did add new information...that the quickness to save has caused me problems in the past. Robed Dawnbringer 13:07, 30 April 2008 (EDT)

OK, perhaps it was new information for that particular article. But the fact that you should be cautious with quicksaves is already explicitly stated on the FAQs article. And the information didn't seem particularly relevant either to the gripe (being able to name saves) or to the article (Poor Use of Screen Real Estate). The Gripes pages may be more informal and less organized than the rest of the wiki, but I still don't think the articles should be forum-style discussions where the conversation is free to wander off-topic. I hope that helps explain it :) --NepheleTalk 16:34, 30 April 2008 (EDT)

Very well. I'm sure I'll recover from the heartbreak :). Robed Dawnbringer 13:31, 2 May 2008 (EDT)


Sorry about that. I did look but I didn't spot the span; I think I was looking for a Linkable Entry instead... –RpehTCE 14:12, 30 April 2008 (EDT)

Of course if I'd ever bothered to jot down a few words of documentation about the template, it would probably help to make it more obvious what the template does ;) It also crossed my mind whether to update the pages using the template to use the Linkable Entry template instead, but I didn't immediately see an advantage to doing that. --NepheleTalk 16:41, 30 April 2008 (EDT)

An explanation of magic[edit]

I have been looking around on here, and I can't figure out exactly what the following means:

"X damage for Y seconds in Z feet"..........what in the world does "feet" mean? I can't find that information anywhere.

It's the area of effect for the spell, and means that the spell will affect anything within Z feet of the target. So Fire Damage 10 pts in 20 feet means that all creatures standing within 20 feet of the spell's target will take 10 points damage. --NepheleTalk 15:28, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

Animation Bug[edit]

Hi Nephele.

I've been playing Oblivion for about 5 months now, and I have just encountered the Animation Bug. Under the 'Levers not Working' section of the glitches page, you posted a link to a solution. But it seems the link is outdated... It dosn't go anywhere. All the research I've done has led me to zBobGuy's Animation Fixer. Do you know if it's compatible with the X-box 360? And if so, where can I find it? Any advice you could give me would be very much appreciated.

The updated link is this, which it sounds like you've already found. As with all third-party mods, it is only available to PC players. As far as I know there is no real fix for Xbox players. It's a bug that is basically just triggered by the number of hours of gameplay. So if you'd like to continue to playing Oblivion, the best option is to just start a new character. --NepheleTalk 11:40, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
Also, the main source for information about the bug is the official forums, see the current thread on the topic. --NepheleTalk 17:30, 3 May 2008 (EDT)
Thanks for the reply. Wouldn't mind starting over if the bug was fixed, but there's not much point if I'll just encounter it again down the road. I'll keep looking for a fix for the X-box version, or figure something out myself. Where there's a will, there's a way.  :) I'll let you know if I find anything.

Viva La Race Revolucion'[edit]

Ok... I have exactly 28 Userboxes here, One for EACH race, including Werewolf, Wereboar, and Vampire! Now... how do I add them to the Userbox page? Or is it too many?-Puddle 22:18, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

Useful Potions[edit]

Nice job on the Useful Potions. I like the new layout. It's funny, cuz I was looking at that the other day and mentally added it to my list of things that I might wanna clean up at some point, but yours looks MUCH better than anything I had in mind. :) --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 23:48, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

Ka Po' Tun[edit]

Hi Nephele, no wonder people try to correct Tamriel:Ka Po' Tun. Our Main Page artice Did you know... spells it Ka' Po' Tun. Could you fix that please? --BenouldTC 00:11, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

It can actually be edited by anyone at Main Page/Did You Know. I've already undone it once, and didn't want to get into an edit war by changing it again. Although it looks like we've now settled on Ka Po' Tun (maybe?). --NepheleTalk 00:18, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Let's hope so, I am tired of the topic. XDD --BenouldTC 00:20, 4 May 2008 (EDT)


I'm reposting this here so that Rpeh doesn't get millions of "You have new messages" messages... The exact situation is that as you probably noticed I'm turning my frankly chaotic userpage code from HTML into wiki here. For the userboxes section, I'm trying to get the gap between the table wall and the userboxes to vanish, and the gap between userboxes to vanish. By the way, when I say userboxes, I actually mean cells. All my userboxes are customized with categories added at the bottom of the page. Thanks - Game LordTalk|Contribs 15:56, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

The get rid of the gap between userboxes you'll need to use "border-collapse: collapse" added to the style of the subtable that contains all of the userboxes (e.g., in the place where you currently have cellpadding:0; cellspacing;0). To get rid of the gap outside the userboxes, you'll need to add style="padding:0" to the cell that contains that table, e.g., on the line where you currently have width=100% colspan=4.
If you'd also like to simplify your coding immensely... instead of all the vertical-align:middle commands you could just add class=vmid once to the subtable. And you could get rid of all the border commands by expanding the class command to class="hiddentable vmid" for the subtable. Good luck :) --NepheleTalk 16:31, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Done! Thanks for that. I'm keeping the border commands as they are, because I'm considering having some multicolored borders later. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 09:28, 5 May 2008 (EDT)

Movement Formulas...Formulae...whatever[edit]

Hey Nephele, I just re-organized the Movement Formulas page. I think it looks and flows better now, but see my comments on the discussion page for it. Since you seemed interested in the concept, I figured I'd notify you specifically, in case you didn't notice it on your own. --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 00:03, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Takl page problem[edit]

Nephele, when I try to click the "+" tab, I get the following:

The UESPWiki – Your source for The Elder Scrolls since 1995

This is a User talk page, used to leave a message for the user Dagoth Ur, Mad God. Please sign your post by typing four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your message.

You tried to add or remove a protected section

I need help. Dagoth Ur, Mad God T C E 03:11, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Then I suppose you're just going to have to edit your talk page using the "edit" button rather than the "+" button. You're obviously able to do that, and know how to do that. Digging through code for hours to track down an obscure issue that basically only affects your user talk page is much closer to the bottom of my priority list than the top. --NepheleTalk 13:30, 7 May 2008 (EDT)
Just for clarity (and completely revising my previous post), the issue occurs for me as well, but it's not when you click the "+" button, it's after you hit "Save Changes". Since the issue seems to affect all users, perhaps you could just paste a quick {{Notice}} at the top explaining that because of the protected section, edits need to be done by the more manual method. I'd do it myself, but with the amount of blocks and other admin-type stuff going on there, I'm reluctant to do anything that might step on toes or send the wrong message to DU, etc. --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 14:07, 7 May 2008 (EDT)
Oh, I also tried adding a section before the Protect tag to see if that might resolve the issue, but it had no effect. --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 14:16, 7 May 2008 (EDT)



Really stupid question here: I remember seeing a template that forces an image to become a link, but for the life of me I can't remember where it was, or what it was called. Could you shine some light on the matter? - Game LordTalk|Contribs 17:16, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Yep, it's Template:navimg. It doesn't have any type of documentation but you can see it in use, for example, on the Oblivion:Illusion#Magical Effects page. Also, the same template is probably available at wikipedia, where there might be a bit more documentation. --NepheleTalk 17:31, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

External links[edit]


I wanted to make some changes to my userpage, but thought I'd better ask you first. On Help:Links it states that <span class=plainlinks> should only be used for in-UESP links, and not to disguise links. I was going to use that command to make the external links on my userpage lose that little arrow. So what I'm asking is does the "no plainlinkings" carry onto userpages? Breacuse I find that little arrow annoying, and I've put quite a bit of effort into making my userpage pleasing to the eye (At least to my eye). - Game LordTalk|Contribs 14:19, 8 May 2008 (EDT)

Well, to some extent that's one of the key issues being discussed right now on the Community Portal. But in the meantime, I'd say, yes, what's written at Help:Links applies sitewide, including user pages. --NepheleTalk 14:59, 8 May 2008 (EDT)

Oblivion Quest Section Spammed[edit]

Have a look:

Codex 18:11, 8 May 2008 (EDT)Codex

I took care of it. Thanks for pointing it out, though! –Eshetalk 18:14, 8 May 2008 (EDT)

Sort Order in Town info box[edit]

Nephele, I have a hard time re-ordering the Town info boxes. See Morrowind:Tel Branora as an example, Almsivi Intervention and Divine Intervention should be grouped together, followed by Boat transport. There must be a forced alphabetical order in the template, can you please take a look at it? Thanks, BenouldTC 00:16, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

I got it. It's not automatically alphabetical - it's just that's how the template was originally set up, and you have to change the template to change the order. I agree that it does make sense to group the two intervention fields together, however. All fixed. (May take some time for all the pages to reflect the changes, as is typically the case with widely used templates like this.) --TheRealLurlock Talk 01:08, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

Image talk Balmora.gif and so on[edit]

Nephele, do we have permission fro TIL for all the MW main city GIFs, like Ebonheart.gif or should I tag them all for replacement? --BenouldTC 02:06, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

We should get replacements anyway. GIF files can only use 256 colours so they're not really suitable for this type of shot. If I'd noticed we were using GIFs for that kind of thing I'd have tagged them long ago. Good spot! –RpehTCE 03:20, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

Oblivion Castle Pages[edit]

I really want to do this and I think it would help the wiki. May I please create a page for each castle in the game? I am quite adept at it and if I shouldn't do it, please tell me. I pretty much have all the information on some of the castles so they won't be major stubs. Thankyou! --Matthewest TCE 05:40, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

At 2am I tend to be asleep, so your orders telling me to "please go to the chatroom A.S.A.P?" are just annoying. Not to mention that in general if I'm away from the chatroom, it's because I have a real life which takes a higher priority than UESP. Please try to show a little bit of respect. --NepheleTalk 13:34, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
I do understand that Nephele but your edits in the recent changes suggested you were active. Saying 'please' in a sentence isn't an order either. --Matthewest TCE 04:13, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
Yeah, I'd made an edit two hours earlier so somehow that means I'm still active? And saying ASAP and then complaining in IRC pretty much negate the effect of one "please". --NepheleTalk 12:56, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
Sorry to cause any trouble but if you weren't active, how can the so called 'orders' be annoying? I don't want to argue anymore and I am sorry to bother you. --Matthewest TCE 19:24, 12 May 2008 (EDT)


I don't know if you have read my comments on IRC just now, but I just want to make it clear. You must understand that I try to contribute constructively to the site, but my condition and my battling emotions cause me to fail every time. Although I am not leaving the site at this point, I will do my utmost to refrain from interfering with other editors, acting like I own the site, making personal attacks, making up ficticious site policies, being territorial over pages, showing extreme prejudice to anonymous edits and simple being an idiot overall. I can't keep apologising for every time something like this happens, so I'm going to approach the site from a different angle. SORRY. --HMSVictoryTalk 14:41, 11 May 2008 (EDT)

Sorry I disappeared from IRC but I had an emergency come up with my cat. At first I thought it would only take a couple minutes to deal with, but it ended up taking longer than I expected. --NepheleTalk 14:01, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
Well, real life takes priority, so it's no problem. I love cats anyway, so I have no quarrel there. --HMSVictoryTalk 12:20, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Guess what...[edit]

I am in the top 50 active users!! Dagoth Ur, Mad God T C E 03:09, 12 May 2008 (EDT) making irrelevant and inconsequential edits like this one! Congratulations, I'm sure you must be so proud, persevering to increase your edit count in the face of innumerable reverts and warnings. Wait, that doesn't sound so impressive when I say it out aloud... --Saruuk 04:06, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
You know, I'm thinking we could've avoided about 400 largely-pointless edits if only we'd had the Active Users page default to showing 500 users instead of 50. ;) --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 01:25, 15 May 2008 (EDT)

Your Daggerfall help is appreciated[edit]

Thanks for keeping an eye on me. Since I've run out of hacking material to update, I guess I need to return my attentions to the Daggerfall Factions. Darn glad to know you're around. --15:18, 12 May 2008 (EDT)

G'night, Neph. I feel "derailed" by some recent (and well-meant) 3rd party edits. Since I have some errands to run before going to bed I might as well call it "quits" now. Since my work is piling up I don't know how much time I'll have for the wiki tomorrow, but thanks again for watching my back today. --Uniblab 17:09, 12 May 2008 (EDT)

General Applause[edit]

i have to say nephele you are a ledgend, im sure that many have said this before but honestly without you this wiki would be hardly more than a jumbled pile of info most of it corrupted or vandalised, you have endured so much e.g. the "Nocturnal" incident that i think you truly deserve to be called a rock, a pillar an ent. :) great going. Lewbot1 15:33, 12 May 2008 (EDT)


The description to Redguard came straight from the official page, timeline. Is it then Arena TES1, Battlespire TES2 and Morrowind of course TES3? I was trying to validate a previous unpatrolled edit, and wanting to resolve confusion... --BenouldTC 01:48, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

It's Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion in the "main" TES series. Battlespire and Redguard are the two oddball games. See, for example All Games. Or BethSoft's full press release, where Battlespire and Redguard are called "spinoffs". Also, note that the date on the page to which you linked is 2004: the game that came out ten years earlier was Arena, not Redguard. --NepheleTalk 02:02, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
Right, Arena was released 1994, hence me wanting to call Redguard something else then the 1st game XD description. Anyways, thanks for helping a noob out here ;) --BenouldTC 02:08, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
But the key point is that it's described as the first adventure game. Which it is. It's the first and only game in the "Elder Scrolls Adventures" series. Your edit obscured the critical information about it being an adventure game; the series isn't called "Elder Scrolls Action-Adventures". --NepheleTalk 12:16, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
Thanks, the Redguard:Redguard article is much clearer and informative now! --BenouldTC 17:59, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
Glad that helped. And sorry I didn't just do it right away last night. --NepheleTalk 18:32, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Anonymous Edits[edit]

I see you recently undid a revert i made to a userpage. Concerning the anynomus IP edit i was always told that annonymous editing of your own pages is permitted, which is why I undid HMSVictory's edit in the first place. --Volanaro 09:58, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

I was not aware that the IP address was ZanderX's. Sorry. --HMSVictoryTalk 12:21, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
I suppose the biggest thing here that bugged me was just the attitude that there is some hard-and-fast rule that can always be used to decide what's right on a user page no matter what the situation. The fact is that deciding what needs to be done on user pages is a case-by-case judgment call; there is no rule that "annonymous editing of your own pages is permitted"; there really aren't too many rules about user sandbox pages. So going back to a one-month old edit and reinstating it based on a non-rule just seemed extreme. Do we really want to go through all old edits to user pages and spend time debating what's right and wrong in each of those cases? I'd say after an edit is a couple of weeks old, and after it's been patrolled as acceptable, just leave it be.
The only real "rules" that we have about user page edits are what's stated on UESPWiki:Namespaces under "User". Everything after that is a judgment call. If it's clear that anonymous editor is the same as the same as the user, the edit is generally assumed to be OK. If it's not clear, then anything is possible: sometimes the edit gets undone; sometimes the edit gets left for a few days to see what happens. If it involves deleting content, it's more likely to get undone; if it involves adding content that seems to fit with the page it's more likely to get left. That's all just for user pages... when you get to user sandboxes, it's even less clear. What's appropriate depends upon the user, the nature of the sandbox, and dozens of other nebulous factors. Many user sandboxes are treated just like standard articles: any one is free to edit and improve the page (or delete content from the page if a requested task has been completed).
As for these specific edits. The anon edit was deletion of content, which is always questionable. I think it's perfectly fair in that case to ask that the user login before deleting content from their sandboxes. The fact that the user hasn't logged in the month since the edit adds to doubt about whether or not the deletion really was done by the user. At least, if the user really had cared about the edit, it seems like something would have happened in the meantime. Going and re-reversing the edit a month later just confuses the situation. The edit made by Dagoth Ur was fixing a typo. If the page was a real user page, typo fixes become borderline. But on a sandbox page, why undo a typo fix? How does it harm the site to have one less typo? Who does it hurt to just leave it in place and make the article easier to understand?
Again, the bottom line is that trying to take individual cases and turn them into absolute rules just doesn't work. So please don't try to turn any of this into a new law about what must or must not be done. Edits are frequently individual judgment calls, and if you're uncertain about what's appropriate in a given case, it's really best just to skip the edit and let someone else deal with it rather than jump in and make an unnecessary decision. --NepheleTalk 13:02, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
What you have said makes perfect snese. Sorry for troubling you with this. Next time, I'll try to be more careful in how I deal with this kind of edit. --HMSVictoryTalk 13:13, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
A while ago I sent Rpeh an email explaining some of my strange behaviour, if yo ulike i could send you the same one, it covers some personal issues though so id have to ask that you only discuss it with Rpeh or TheRealLurlock, I've come to trust you and them more than anyone else here. --Volanaro 13:35, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

It doesnt tell you much, just a little bit abot some problems that affect my thinking, like i said, just say if you want to know. --Volanaro 08:48, 15 May 2008 (EDT)

Patrolling Rules[edit]

Since we're on the subject of "rules", are there more pages somewhere describing rules for Patrollers? I've read over the obvious ones, like the Style Guide, but there have been a number of things that have come up where I wasn't entirely sure what the "rules" were for Patrolling them. For instance:

  • The Gripes pages: Language is much less formal and often first-person here. Is this acceptable?
  • The Roleplaying pages: What makes an acceptable Roleplaying page?
  • Matthewest's new Castle pages (e.g., Castle Anvil): Are they suitable additions? I wasn't sure if they were necessary or not, but they were certainly useful enough once created; with no guidelines, though, I wasn't sure whether to mark them as patrolled or not.

It goes without saying that I can leave these for more experienced Patrollers to decide on, but if nothing exists already, we should consider making a Patrolling Guidelines page that covers the exceptions to the rules, and clarifies the more unusual circumstances. This would help if we ever get into the position of having all the experienced Patrollers having left or being on vacation at the same time, for instance. --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 13:42, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Looking at the Patrollers' Q&A, I decided it could use some expansion and re-formatting anyway, and I had some time on my hands, so I went ahead and created a new sub-page, as I'd suggested above. --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 12:27, 15 May 2008 (EDT)

Oblivion Glitches edit[edit]

I am sorry about my deletion. I figured that it was a bit redundant to say that the UOP patch fixes hundreds of the rocks, then leave a note under it that says that the UOP patch fixes the glitch. I just wanted to condense it a little. --Twentyfists 18:01, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

OK :) It can help if you use the edit summary to provide the reasoning behind your edit, especially when you're deleting information. An edit summary can help anyone who checks the edit to find alternative ways to accomplish what you were aiming for.
Also, anticipating your other question, about my undo on Oblivion:Birthsigns. Part of the problem there was with you first deleting the entire paragraph then adding it back in a second edit, I didn't realize until after I'd marked the two edits as patrolled that the paragraph you added back in was different from the original. Because the edits were marked as patrolled, I couldn't just leave them for later or see if any other patrollers had ideas about what to do. And again, lack of an explanation plus the deletion of information in your edits made me want to err towards the version that contained more information rather than less. --NepheleTalk 18:22, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
Alright, I'll explain my edits from now on. Also, I just now changed a link on Oblivion: Unmarked Places from "Imperial Bridge Inn on the bank of the Silverfish River" to "Imperial Bridge Inn, on the bank of the Silverfish River." --Twentyfists 18:41, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
Don't overlook changing "many any varied" to "many and varied" :P OK, for some edits it's pretty obvious why they were done. Although an edit summary never hurts. --NepheleTalk 18:45, 16 May 2008 (EDT)[edit]

Thanks for help with the reverts. I hope my missed ones weren't too much trouble.-Puddle 21:11, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Thank you for the cleanup you did. The missed ones weren't any trouble: there's an admin rollback feature that makes it trivial to cleanup all the edits done by an editor (which is why I could do a dozen pages in a few seconds). --NepheleTalk 23:04, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
You're Welcome, and I was wondering how you did that, I was feeling like a "slow editor." Lol. -Puddle 18:52, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

User "PenisClown"[edit]

I think the name says what I'm about to say. This name is obviously obscene, and I think it should be deleted & the owner should make a new account with a new name.-Puddle 21:22, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Thanks for the heads up. It's been done. --NepheleTalk 23:04, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Hatreds Soul Deletion[edit]


i noticed you deleted the line i submitted to Oblivion's Leveled Items. I understand why you did, as I am new to contributing to UESPwiki so, i have submitted the question and situation to Leveled Items Talk. I just want a theory or explanation as to why i am experiencing this.

Thank you. →XHellxKnighTx 06:58, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

New member setup help.[edit]

As my previous post suggests, i am new to the contribution part of wiki. I just need some advice and help settin' up my profile page. if you can nudge me in the right direction, i'm most likely just not looking in the right place for help lol. I.E: putting the gender icon/tag, the region tag and all that on my User page. →XHellxKnighTx 06:56, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

I'm not sure whether Nephele would be online at this time, so I hope you don't mind me butting in. For the gender thing it's either
{{User Male}} or {{User Female}}.
Region tags depend where you're from (Ok, that sounded dumb). What I mean is, that we have tags for most countrys (USA, UK, etc.), but not for every country. If you want a list, you can find it here. If you're country isn't there, you can ask either an admin, another member of the site, or me, how to add your country. Hope that settles it, more or less. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 07:30, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
You can also steal someone else's page and then just modify it for your own uses. It's the nature of wikis that that sort of thing happens. A long time ago, I stole Rpeh's page. Since then, I've done some signficant modification and so has he, so they no longer look all that similar, though I still have a "thank you" in my page for the fact that I blatantly copied it from what he had at the time. If you do steal someone's page, though, make sure you remove any "special" user-boxes, like the ones for Patrollers, Mentors, and that sort of thing. --Robin Hood (TalkE-mailContribs) 15:16, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

Oblivion Leveled Items[edit]

I noticed that you've been correcting stuff I got wrong when splitting out the various leveled items. Thanks for that. This {{NAMESPACE}} thing in the category - it is wrong full stop, or just wrong for certain items? I copied the general format from the artifact items, which all appear to have the {{NAMESPACE}} on their category. Should they also be changed? --Gaebrial 05:20, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Using namespace in the category is always wrong, at least for every possible case I can think of. A tag such as [[Category:Oblivion-Jewelry-Rings|{{NAMESPACE}}]] says that for the purpose of sorting the list on the Oblivion-Jewelry-Rings category, the page should be sorted as if its name is simply "Oblivion". Which basically completely defeats any type of organization on the category page. If every page in the category is sorted using the name "Oblivion" (and just plain "Oblivion", not even the full page name, e.g., "Oblivion:Black Band") then not only are all the pages listed under "O", but the order is going to be completely random, because all of the pages are identical as far as the sorting is concerned. In almost all cases we want the page to be sorted using the basic page name (e.g., "Black Band"); for names with "The" or "A" we want to ignore the article (e.g., "Blades, The" or just "Blades" instead of "The Blades"); in a very small number of cases you might want the pages sorted by namespace, but in any such case you'd always want to provide the full page name (e.g., "Oblivion:Black Band"), so that there's some way to differentiate multiple pages within the same namespace.
As for the existing artifact pages, any pages that use namespace in their categories are wrong, and definitely not "all" artifact pages have the mistake. I checked a dozen individual pages, and only found the mistake on one page; I then used a couple of the most common categories to look for pages sorted under "Oblivion" and only found three more. I've fixed all the ones that I've found. Any others that use it also need to be fixed. --NepheleTalk 12:29, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Bloodmoon:Gandrung Caverns NPCs[edit]

Nephele, did you mean to replace the MW class links with BM specific links? Bloodmoon:Gandrung Caverns NPCs, the classes are not special for BM, as far as I can see. --BenouldTC 14:48, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Sorry, no, I didn't mean to change the links. I've fixed them. --NepheleTalk 14:58, 23 May 2008 (EDT)


This is probably something I should know, but what EXACTLY does noinclude do? And while I'm at it, what does includeonly do exactly?-Puddle 21:03, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

The easiest way to understand it is probably to look at an example. Pull up Tamriel:Altmer, for example, in an edit window to see all of the text, then look at the displayed pages Tamriel:Altmer and Oblivion:Altmer. The Oblivion page includes the Tamriel page, in other words, the edit version of the page has the tag {{Tamriel:Altmer}}. Most of the text is the same on both the Tamriel and Oblivion pages. The noinclude text is not shown on the included page; in other words, the "See Also" section is not shown on Oblivion but is shown on Tamriel. The includeonly text is only shown on the included page; in other words, the "For more information" sentence is shown on Oblivion but not shown on Tamriel. --NepheleTalk 21:25, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
Aah, thank you, now I'll use that on Tamriel:High Rock which I am about to save after a big revamp. Thanks again!-Puddle
Looks like you've successfully mastered both tags :) --NepheleTalk 22:31, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
Really? Thanks, that means a lot coming from you.-Puddle 22:37, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
And let's not complicate matters by mentioning the obscure "onlyinclude" tag (oops) - whose existence I still have yet to come up with a reason for... --TheRealLurlock Talk 00:15, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
The "includeonly" tags aren't used as much but see, for instance, Oblivion:The Feed Bag, which uses them to display an infobox when you're looking at the page but just an image if the page is transcluded. –RpehTCE 02:16, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
Yeah, I wasn't talking about those. I was referring to the almost-never-used "onlyinclude" tags, not "includeonly". Near as I can figure, they do exactly the opposite of "noinclude", in that anything OUTSIDE the tags is not included. But I can't think why you'd need them, as you could just use "noinclude" on all the parts outside, and it'd have the same effect. (Okay, if you had something where you wanted only the middle part included and not the beginning or end, "onlyinclude" would save you two tags to do it, but I think it might just over-complicate things.) The real question is what happens when "onlyinclude"s are used in combination with "noinclude"s or "includeonly"s? Anyhow, I've yet to find a single good reason to use them. --TheRealLurlock Talk 13:40, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
Wow, I wrote that? Hmm, sorry it came out so mushy, anyway, Thanks again Nephele!-Puddle 18:00, 25 May 2008 (EDT)

Two Questions...[edit]

I'd say no - it barely has enough information for an Oblivion page. We don't have Tamriel pages for the other districts of the Imperial City, any more than we have them for the cantons of Vivec. The city itself deserves a page, of course, but there's no reason to break it down any further than that. --TheRealLurlock Talk 00:53, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
Thank you!-Puddle 21:38, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
Yes, as far as I can tell from the description, the two are the same. And if Green Emperor Way/Road was described in ES games before Oblivion was even released, then I'd say it probably will warrant a Tamriel page. --NepheleTalk 18:36, 3 June 2008 (EDT)


Neph, correct me if I am wrong, but it's got to be plains, plain isn't used for areas. Compare to my dictionary definition.

noun: a large area of flat land with few trees. Compare with prairie . • ( the Plains) another term for Great Plains .

--BenouldTC 03:02, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

The main thing I wanted to fix was the verb. If the name of the location is "Deshann Plains" then the verb "are" would be appropriate. But as long as the name of the location is "Deshann Plain" then the verb has to be "is". It's the same principle as this whole mess. --NepheleTalk 03:07, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
Yeah, must be those developer spelling errors throwing us a monkey wrench again ;) No need for a mess, how about this:

The "Deshann Plain" is a prairie and so on? --BenouldTC 03:19, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

I don't think there's anything grammatically incorrect about referring to a region as a "plain", singular. I mean, the rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain, not the plains. There must be some actual locations referred to as a singular "plain" rather than plural "plains". --TheRealLurlock Talk 13:15, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
NP, Lurlock, I worked around the issue, like here Tamriel:Deshann_Plain. All good now. --BenouldTC 13:19, 29 May 2008 (EDT)


Do you think Sutch, found here is the same as Fort Sutch? Thanks! By the way, sorry for barraging you with so many questions lately, I'm sorry!-Puddle 22:04, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Yes, it's quite likely - you'll notice it's even mentioned in the Notes on the page, and there's a discussion about this on the talk page of the article. Evidently, things were changed at some point prior to release. --TheRealLurlock Talk 22:39, 27 May 2008 (EDT)