Semi Protection

Skyrim talk:Destruction/Archive 3

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This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Destruction discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Error on Cloak spells.

The page says Fire/Frost/Shock Cloak spells do Fire/Frost/Shock Cloak 10pts for 60 seconds which sounds like the spells do 10pts/s instead of 8 as in the description. In fact, the Fire/Frost/Shock Cloak effect of the spell is cast on self and it applies a secondary spell on target, which is called FlameCloakDmg, FrostCloakDmg and LightningCloakDmg. All these 3 spells are identical to Flames, Frostbite and Spark and properly have MagicDamageFire, MagicDamageFrost and MagicDamageShock keyword so they are affected by the Augmented Flames/Frost/Lightning perks. The Bugs section says otherwise.

I did a test to see if the perks truly affected the cloak spells: I spawned a Wolf with no resistance, set its health to 1000 and cast Frost Cloak spells twice on Adept difficulty:

- The 1st time without Augmented Frost: after 60 seconds, the Wolf received 487.55 damage (8*60= 480=> the Frost Cloak does 8pts/s as in the description)

- The 2nd time with both Augmented Frost: after 60 seconds, the Wolf received 725.92 damage (8*1.5*60= 720)

In short, the Cloak spells do 8 pts/second and are affected by Augmented Flames/Frost/Lightning perks. The Bug section is wrong and the information on the Spell table is misleading.117.5.243.19 13:01, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I have Augmented Flames 1, and I see on my Magic menu that Flames has been upped to 10 points per second, but Flame Cloak is still listed as doing only 8. Anyone know why this is so? 76.185.41.201 21:45, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
For those interested; this is because most magic effects have a description like: "Does <mag> damage to foe". And the game automatically fills in the <mag> and updates it. However, the maginitude of cloak spells is their area of effect. As has been pointed out, the "cloak" itself casts another SEPERATE spell on foes who enter their area of effect. So the magnitude of the cloak magic effect is not true to the actual damage of the effect. To get around this, the magic effect of a cloak spell is "Does <8> points of damage to foe". This makes the 8 big and colourful as spell magnitudes are, but it will never be anything other than 8. 90.206.126.74 19:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
>>>Q: Are the cloak spells therefore also exempt from being nerfed by Expert or Master level difficulty, since they aren't technically an "attack"? 76.185.41.201 06:15, 20 December 2012 (GMT)

Augment blah blah work for cloak spells, tested on stormcloaks (i'm with imperial), takes 18 seconds-ish to kill one with fire cloak, takes 13ish to kill one with storm cloak with 2 ranks in augment lightnings. also confirmed dual casting does not increase damage (still take 13ish seconds to kill one stormcloak) Dawn (talk) 03:08, 8 March 2013 (GMT)

also confirmed augments don't work for rune spells, same setup, fire runes kill slightly faster (burn effect) than 2 rank augments lightning runes Dawn (talk) 03:12, 8 March 2013 (GMT)

Blizzard spell

Does blizzard do any damage at all? I just see it make a little hurricane picking up small objects and swirling them around me while hurting me a bit and enemys not at all. — Unsigned comment by 24.128.66.131 (talk) at 05:08 on 26 June 2012

Yes, it does. However, it takes your own resistance into calculation then applies the damage to enemies (a bug due to the conflict between the 2 magic effects assigned to it). That means if you have high magic/frost resistance or worse, both, Blizzard will be very pathetic.117.5.17.11 17:21, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Is that true on all platforms? — Unsigned comment by 69.123.223.32 (talk) at 17:34 on 17 July 2012
If this is true, then someone with access to the CK should check the two different magic effects and add it as a bug..--81.225.78.221 13:20, 22 February 2013 (GMT)

Jumping in forges to raise destruction.

Confirming it still works in version 1.6.89.0.6, I just tested it. The page previously claimed it to be fixed in 1.4. Dkamm65 08:01, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, although it at least had a Verification Needed tag slapped on it, indicating that it needed confirmation. I've also confirmed it, so clearly it was wrong. I updated the wording slightly, since just jumping in once only increases Destruction by a small amount. Robin Hoodtalk 18:25, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
I just added the verification tag again. I believe this bug was fixed in the official 1.9 patch. Dbbolton (talk) 16:41, 15 June 2013 (GMT)
The only change made by any patch was the v1.2 of the USKP. The official patch has never gone near this "issue". Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:08, 15 June 2013 (GMT)

Enemy Destruction damage scaling

It appears enemies' Destruction spell damage increases with level or skill, unlike the player character's. I have heard several testimonies, and have more than one of my own, that points towards this being the case. For one example: when fighting an Arch Necromancer in the quest "The Black Star", my character died in a single hit from an Ice Storm spell. Ice Storm, with both Augmented perks, deals a maximum of 60 damage. Dual cast, a maximum of 132. And yet, my character, who was at full health (with no frost or magic resistance), which was 230 health points, died in a single hit. Does anybody know if enemy Destruction magic does indeed scale? -- Ninety — Unsigned comment by 200.74.52.63 (talk) at 20:19 on 24 July 2012

They don't cast the same spells as the player, have different perks and also there is the matter of difficulty level. 90.206.126.67 13:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
The spells look the same. Is there anywhere to see the stats of these spells and perks? And I was playing on Adept, for reference. — Unsigned comment by 200.74.52.63 (talk) at 01:53 on 29 July 2012
I can make a spell that uses the Fire Storm visual effect to mass reanimate corpses, heal nearby machines and instantly kill myself. Similarly I can make one that simply deals 1 damage to all foes around me. A spell's visual effect is not important for determining effects and spell magnitudes. You could consider using the CK? 90.206.126.74 19:09, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Also, as per the original point, Ice Storm fires a projectile that can keep applying its effect as long as you stay inside it. If the spell staggered you (knocking you backwards), or you were just moving in away that kept you in its area of effect, then it could of struck you twice. That would be 264 damage if dual cast, and that's not including any weird perks/abilities/stronger version of the spell that particular actor may have had. 90.206.126.74 19:13, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
It didn't, but I see the point. I'm playing on console, however, so asking around is my only means of getting information. The Ice Storm isn't the only example, however, since I'd been one-shot by Chain Lightning before. Thanks, anyway. — Unsigned comment by 190.101.97.40 (talk) at 03:29 on 14 August 2012
Enemy Mages use the exact same spells as the player, saying they don't is extremely bad information. The higher level you character goes the stronger the enemy Mages get and the better their spells get, until eventually, you start facing Arch Cryomancers, Pyromancers etc who use every spell up to Expert level. The Arch Pyromancers/Cryomancers/Electromancers are also given both the augmented perks for their chosen branch of destruction magic. 86.25.220.28
Ice Storm appears to have a bug where it will instantly kill a player if they are caught by the outer edge of the spell. This is repeatable with any NPC who casts the spell, but particularly noticeable with Malkoran. Standing still and taking the full brunt of Ice Storm will do considerable damage, but trying to avoid it and being caught by the very edge will almost always instantly kill a player, regardless of their health. — Unsigned comment by ‎ 98.194.185.178 (talk) at 02:45 on 31 March 2013

Rune Spell on NPC not causing bounty - moved from article, needs verification.

If you cast a rune, leave the area, and then return, the symbol for the spell will have disappeared and it will not have been triggered by any patrolling NPC's. However, when an NPC walks over where you initially cast the spell while you are present, the rune will trigger and the NPC will turn hostile but it will not count as a crime and other NPC's will treat it as a brawl. (tested with Farengar on PS3).

This is unusual enough that it should be verified before being added to the article. --XyzzyTalk 17:14, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I would try this,but my skill with Destruction is pitiful,so I might not be able to cast a rune.--Skyrimplayer 17:35, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm the guy who posted it originally. I'll be more specific about what I did. I cast a rune in front of Farengar's bed in Dragonsreach, hoping that I could kill him when he went to bed. However, I waited several hours and he did not go to sleep, so I left. When I came back (some time later, I think) he was sleeping, had not triggered the rune, and the rune was gone. When I ineracted with him he woke up, got out of bed and triggered the rune. He then attacked me but no guards came to his assistance and I killed him. --Anil 17:57, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Was this a one-off occurrence, or can you recreate it with Farengar again, or another NPC? It may have just been a glitch. It should be reproducible before we add it to the article. --XyzzyTalk 00:47, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Further research with the same character. Someone else should test this as well, but it does not appear to be a real glitch. The rune disappearing seems to be some sort of a texture loading glitch, where the game loads the visual for the rune underneath the floor, as it doesn't do that on all surfaces. I was able to get one activation on Danica Pure-Spring and attack her a second time in front of a guard, but I couldn't kill her because she is essential at this point in the game. All the other times only work if I'm not seen when the rune is activated, but that is nothing new. The game will not treat the attacks as assault, but if you kill someone in front of others, you still get a murder bounty.--Anil 20:03, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Looks like I'm going to be training,so I can check this.--Skyrimplayer 20:08, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Augmented Flames/Frost/Shock Bug

I have Aug flames and frost at 2 but in my magic menu the spells flame and frostbite do not match. Flames reporting 27 damage while frostbite is showing 12. I can't seem to find any information online about this, can anyone confirm? I'm on PS3 if that is of any importance.67.160.149.107 10:37, 26 November 2012 (GMT)

Do you have the illusion perk Aspect of Terror? Because Fire spells all have an illusion part cause of the fire perk that makes enemies flee, and as a result gain ~10pts of damage to their stats. Lord Eydvar Talk|Contribs 10:38, 26 November 2012 (GMT)
Yes in fact I do. But shouldn't flames do 22 damage as a result?67.160.149.107 10:46, 26 November 2012 (GMT)
Yeah idk the 27, if you have the Word meditation thing from Paarthurnax that boosts fire it might be doing that, but it shouldn't usually show in the stats unless they patched it to do that. Lord Eydvar Talk|Contribs 10:48, 26 November 2012 (GMT)
I do not have the meditation from Paarthurnax. Perhaps it is a bug as I had thought then and I will have to deal with it. I'll have to see if how sparks turns out once I've gotten the perks for shock. 67.160.149.107 10:51, 26 November 2012 (GMT)

() I got the 27 figured out. The +10 from that illusion perk is to BASE Damage. Meaning you're +50% from Aug Flames is off of 18 NOT 8. 18+50%=27. Lord Eydvar Talk|Contribs 11:02, 26 November 2012 (GMT)

Yes, that is why my Fireball does 75 damage and Incinerate does 105 damage.

86.25.220.28

Disintegrate percentage

The page says 15%, which is not symmetrical with the other perks. Plus, the effect magnitude on spells is 200 pts for 1 sec, which suggests 20% (think .1% per point in the effect magnitude). Anyone confirm or deny the 15%? (Thelee (talk) 21:49, 3 December 2012 (GMT))

If you look up a spell like lightning bolt (I guess you did that), you see the "Disintegrate: Health" Effect. Editing it, we learn it uses the effect PerkDisintegrateFFAimed. Looking that up, there is a condition "Health < 0.15" which is the 15%. Similar for other spells. --Alfwyn (talk) 22:22, 3 December 2012 (GMT)

Increase in the Power of Enchantments

Tonight, I played through the same short section of Dragonborn with two different characters- one, a pure magicka-based character whose main focus is Destruction (lvl 100) and who has no investment in the Two-Handed Weapons skill, and very little in the Enchantment skill; and the other, a Two-Handed, Heavy-Armor Character with full investments in both of those skills AND in Enchanting, but next to none in Destruction. When I discovered the item "Champions Cudgel" in Fort Frostmoth, I saw two different levels of the same enchantment based on the two characters. The Destruction-based character received a copy of the enchantment that displayed a staggering 70 points of damage for each element, while the Weapons-based character only saw a meager 26. Am I correct to assume that the Destruction skill also influences the power of item enchantments? I can't find anything about that on the wiki but it seems very obvious, for I've noticed some curiously powerful weapon enchantments on a character that doesn't have any weapon or Enchanting perks. Lucipet (talk) 07:59, 8 December 2012 (GMT)

Sorry, I realized how it works- the Augmented Flames, Shock, and Freeze perks not only increase the strength of spells in their respective elemental categories, but also increase any enchantments of the same type. This should be added to the article, at least after it's been confirmed (though it makes a lot of sense so I doubt this was a glitch). Lucipet (talk) 08:09, 8 December 2012 (GMT)

Wall Spells and XP?

How does a 'Wall Spell' give Experience? (Wall of Flames, for instance). Is experience given when the spell is cast and hits an acceptable target, and if so, which one? There are technically two targets: Your enemy, and THE GROUND. As you may know, wall spells can't be cast unless there is a floor/wall to cast it against. So, which is it? Piffinatour (talk) 01:36, 17 February 2013 (GMT)

When you hit enemies, similar to Flames, Frostbite, Spark. You notice the burst of flames appears under your target when you cast Flames, Firebolt, Incinerate,... at them? The "Wall" are technically those burst, it just use different visual effects, last longer and deals more damage. So if you can't gain EXP by pointing Flames at the ground, you can't with Wall spells either. 117.5.17.225 08:48, 22 February 2013 (GMT)

spell casting speed

i think we should add that most spells have a casting speed of 1 somewhere (or 3 for ritual spells). It'd be useful for someone comparing damage to weapons and bows 50.99.131.242 18:48, 24 February 2013 (GMT)

omg is true :\

jumping up and down on a forge does slightly slightly increase destruction skill. I feel so insulted something this stupid is true. Can we remove that note anyways since it's just plain stupid and very impractical? Dawn (talk) 17:54, 2 March 2013 (GMT)

It's a quirk of the game that many players would be interested in knowing, so I say no. We can't just remove info because we dislike it. Vely►t►e 20:23, 2 March 2013 (GMT)
And I just tried it. It's obscenely slow and hardly reliable for a few free levels in destruction. But if someone wants to mash "Y" (And the PC variant) for a few hours, let them.-Zydrate[][] 00:38, 6 April 2013 (GMT)

The perk Impact may not work for some enemies?

I was in the quest Ill Met by Moonlight and I was eagar to stop Sinding from killing any hunter. But it is impossible to do so as the perk Impact stops working. I have troubles defeating him even I let that idea of saving the hunters go. Is anyone also experiencing this? -Joshua.yathin.yu (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2013 (GMT)

I haven't experienced this, but if it occurs with enemies other than Sinding, it might be worth noting on this page instead of Sinding's. I checked the CSList entry for Sinding and for the Impact perk, but didn't see anything that would explain why it didn't affect him. --Xyzzy Talk 03:36, 6 April 2013 (GMT)
If I recall correctly, when in werewolf form you do not suffer from knockback, perhaps Sinding also benefits from this ability?75.76.58.46 20:54, 7 May 2013 (GMT)
You may be right. According to CSList, werewolves are immune to paralysis, which may include staggering. I'm not sure about that, however, because dragons are also immune to paralysis, and you can definitely stagger them with the impact perk. --Xyzzy Talk 00:19, 8 May 2013 (GMT)

Disintegrate Spell: Dragons

In a fight with a Dragon, the Disintegrate spell procc'd and turned the dragon to ashes. Leaving no ashes to be looted, but still granting me a soul to absorb.

I suppose this is where I decide to stop using shock damage on dragons, and use the appropriate fire/frost magic if I want to loot the bones/scales for money. — Unsigned comment by 174.92.84.14 (talk) at 19:03 on 29 March 2013‎

The ashes always appear but depending on where the dragon died they can actually appear inside object geometry or under the ground and therefore are impossible to loot without the use of the console to clip through walls/floors/object geometry. It seems to be a particular problem if the dragon crashed to the ground and left a skid mark, which adds geometry on top of the ground to simulate the skid mark. If the dragon is disintegrated on top of the skid mark, the ashes can appear beneath the added skid mark geometry but on top of the "actual" ground. This visually obscures them from being seen by the player and the collision effects of the skid mark geometry make the ashes unlootable without the use of no-clip. — Unsigned comment by 119.83.241.16 (talk) at 02:16 on 9 November 2013‎

Magic damage in legendary difficulty?

Since high end magic spells only do about 100 damage would this not gimp magic users into doing next to nothing damage if on legendary you only do 25% damage and since you can level infinitly normal enimies could have up to 1-2k health? If bows, one handed and 2 handed weapons can do anywere from 100-500 damage should they not increase damage from destruction spells so its even? — Unsigned comment by 109.149.79.243 (talk) at 22:58 on 5 April 2013

It does seem to reduce destructions viability at very high levels, but Bethesda have deemed that they do not need to raise the damage output yet. Weapons will only do a maximum of less than 200 without exploiting the restoration glitch btw. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:03, 5 April 2013 (GMT)
It can easily go way higher without drinking single fortify restoration potion with right gear and perks which almost every warrior skill oriented player has. Ofc. In some situations you need help of enchanting and alchemy but as far as I know both are legit skills. Only daggers can't reach more than 200 because Fortify One-handed enchants doesn't seem to work on them John3 (talk) 12:47, 12 April 2013 (GMT)
I think something is off here. If you use Thunderbolt its 60pts of damage. Augmented Shock perks multiplies that by 1.5 to 90. Dual casting multiplies that by 2.2 which puts it at 198. Alchemy potions increase damage and the maximum effect with the perks is 75% improvement. So multiply it by another 1.75 and you get 346.5 damage per cast.98.174.225.94 22:23, 10 July 2013 (GMT)
but remember that if u want use potions u are able to increase an on-handed weapon damage to about 700 , while u are using just one of your hands !!! — Unsigned comment by 130.255.248.176 (talk) at 19:34 on 24 September 2013‎

Patch info - moved from article

With Patch 1.9 This is no longer the case. With Patch 1.9 XP is based on the damage done by the spell. Magicka efficient spells net the most experience so spells like Flames, Frostbite and Sparks garner more XP then higher spells like Incenerate or Icy Spear.

I'm moving this here because I checked the fixes listed on the Patch page and didn't see this one. Also, it doesn't really make sense. If XP gain is based on damage dealt, more powerful spells that inflict greater damage would garner more XP than lower power, magicka-efficient spells. --Xyzzy Talk 01:19, 14 May 2013 (GMT)

I think they're referring to EXP/Mana ratio. If that's the case, it makes sense. VycDarkshadow (talk) 01:41, 19 November 2013 (GMT)
As near as I can tell from testing, XP for a spell is based on two things: the spell cost and a hidden multiplier for the various effects that go into the spell. So far, we haven't documented that multiplier on the wiki, but it's on my list of things to do. That's why Clairvoyance gets you next to nothing...if I recall, you only get 1% of the standard XP for that particular spell.
In any event, I'm pretty sure the original statement is incorrect. Robin Hood  (talk) 03:05, 19 November 2013 (GMT)
Actually, re-reading this, and having done some investigation into some of the Destruction spells, it's not that far off the truth. I'm not sure if Patch 1.9 had anything to do with it—I rather think not, actually—but if, as VycDarkshadow suggested, you look at the XP:Mana ratio, Flames is pretty much the best spell out of the ones I've looked at. If you completely drain your mana by using Flames on a monster, and then re-load and try the same thing using Firebolt, Flames will have advanced your skill noticeably further. Of course, the downside is that said monster is probably busy whaling on you while you stand there using the equivalent of a pocket lighter on him. Robin Hood  (talk) 09:22, 24 November 2013 (GMT)
If we compare XP per point of magicka expended, I would agree with you. However, the original statement wasn't comparing magicka efficiency, it was stating which spell "net the most experience". According to the article, this would depend on damage inflicted, base magicka cost of the spell, and according to you, the hidden multiplier. --Xyzzy Talk 14:32, 24 November 2013 (GMT)

Disintegration vs. Essential

Does the disintegrate effect still work on essential people? 4LordDagon! (talk) 21:29, 3 August 2013 (GMT)

It does not work on essential characters.--69.136.59.17 02:28, 4 August 2013 (GMT)

Using Derkeethus for training

Please verify---Derkeethus has left service, attacked and reported assault. — Unsigned comment by 187.166.57.210 (talk) at 05:05 on 28 July 2013‎

Did you attack him before or after completing Extracting an Argonian? He is only essential until that quest is completed, making him liable to behave like any other non-essential follower if you attack him. --Xyzzy Talk 05:34, 4 August 2013 (GMT)
This was after the aforementioned quest was completed. I used Flames on him, and as soon as his health dropped, the status updater thing at top left said "Your follower leaves your service" and "40 bounty added to Eastmarch". In addition, he started to attack me. (Sys. info: Xbox 360, patch 1.9.31.0.8)
That explains it. After completing the quest, Derkeethus is no longer essential and will behave like any other non-essential follower, making him a poor choice for training. I will edit the article to make this clear. --Xyzzy Talk 13:30, 6 August 2013 (GMT)
If that's the case, then when I attack another follower with Flames, they should start hacking at me. However, this is not the case; I've used Ice Storm, Fireball, etc. repeatedly on one of my followers (with a healing spell on a hotkey) and they never left my service. The only negative thing that happened once was when they started to attack me.
I've also tried (after saving) killing Derkeethus after rescuing him; he just wouldn't die, even without armor and getting hit by a 49 displayed-damage greatsword power attack. — Unsigned comment by 216.235.175.37 (talk) at 03:17 on 7 August 2013
Just to explain the recent re-removal of the {{VN}} tag on the page-- the first issue was that using him as an essential character wouldn't level destruction as noted in the article, but as you've noted here that you tried this after the quest, and the article has been updated to say that you must do this before the quest in order for it to work, the VN tag is no longer needed.
As for your other, updated post, this would be a separate issue which isn't relevant to the note that's currently on the article, since it pertains to trying this method after the quest rather than before. Further discussion of this other issue is fine, but the note on the page has been updated and is accurate. — ABCface 04:27, 7 August 2013 (GMT)
But doesn't the game say that combat spells only work on valid targets? If I can get Destruction XP from attacking Hadvar/Ralof during Unbound without them attacking me, then why does Derkeethus immediately retaliate against me?174.225.128.112 17:23, 8 August 2013 (GMT)

() Probably for the same reason the OP was being attacked: Derkeethus was no longer essential because you had completed his quest. If not, then maybe he is bugged in some way, and if this is verified, he should be removed from the list of good targets for training. An NPC's status as essential or non-essential doesn't determine if they are a valid target for Destruction XP purposes, it just determines whether or not they will turn on you if you do it too much. --Xyzzy Talk 19:47, 8 August 2013 (GMT)

Just to add a note to the topic, I looked at Derkeethus's (My grammar sucks) article; he's extremelyblack.buggy. He should be removed as a result. 174.225.129.1 22:53, 11 August 2013 (GMT)
You're correct, there are several confirmed bugs relating to him, including one about essential status. With this in mind, I do think it's better to remove him from the part of this page which suggests using him for skill experience after all. So, what do others think? — ABCface 00:26, 12 August 2013 (GMT)
Sounds like a good idea. --Xyzzy Talk 01:53, 12 August 2013 (GMT)
I went ahead and replaced him with the Riekling Chief, since the Chief seems like a better option, and is a pretty good choice for this on Solstheim. --Xyzzy Talk 15:09, 17 August 2013 (GMT)

Fire Storm not working

in all three last games i've played, fire storm does not work. the scroll does, however. does anyone know why? Demoxo (talk) 11:11, 24 September 2013 (GMT)

What happens when you use firestorm? Does it hurt you?117.4.10.180 14:25, 24 September 2013 (GMT)
it literally does not do anything. i charge it up fully and cast it, my character does the animation but nothing happens. Demoxo (talk) 16:16, 24 September 2013 (GMT)
I don't know that this is related to Fire Storn. I've had this happen to me with Soul Trap. Charge it up and fire, but nothing happens at least 50% of the time (playing a Dunmer with no magic resist or absorb gear, so not that). --73.27.2.20 11:15, 16 December 2014 (GMT)

Using M'aiq for Destruction training

Just for fun, I decided to pound M'aiq with some fireballs, and noticed that my Destruction skill (84) wasn't advancing. I then used player.setav destruction 15 to roll it back to level 15 and did it again, this time with fireballs and firebolts, and still didn't see the Destruction progress bar budge. I must have blasted him with at least 50 missiles with no effect on Destruction progress. Can anybody verify that M'aiq is actually a legitimate target for Destruction training? I can't recall if he has worked for me in the past, and the only mods I have installed are the USKP/UDGP/UHFP/UDBP. --Xyzzy Talk 01:38, 1 December 2013 (GMT)

I haven't run across him recently to be able to test, but from the testing I did when I was figuring out how all the skill xp worked, I remember that if you hit an Essential character when they're down, you won't do any damage, so you don't get any XP. Wait for them to heal back up so that you can damage them, and then you'll get more XP. Whether that's what's actually happening with M'aiq, I don't know. Looking around quickly in the CK, I don't see any other effects that would come into play, like 100% fire resistance or whatever. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:55, 26 December 2013 (GMT)
I went back and tried this again with Firebolt and Frostbite. It was looking like you were right, that you would only gain XP when attacking them when they weren't in the recovery position. Unfortunately, about the fourth cycle of blasting him with frostbite and then letting my magicka recover, I started to gain Destruction XP from hitting him with Frostbite even when he was recovering. This may have happened because I stopped blasting him when he dropped, then started up again immediately. There definitely seems to be some inconsistency with this, but the majority of my testing did follow what you stated.
I did discover that using setav to set my Destruction level to 15 did not result in my Destruction skill gaining XP as fast as it should have at that low level. I had to set it at 100, then make it legendary, to get it to gain XP at the correct rate. --Xyzzy Talk 04:28, 27 December 2013 (GMT)
Hmmm...interesting that it started back up again. I'll have to play around with it some more later on and see if I can make any more sense of what's going on there. Robin Hood  (talk) 09:00, 27 December 2013 (GMT)
Confirmed, at least to some degree. The amount of XP I got with Flames seemed to be minute, but with Frostbite, it was more variable. What causes this, I have no clue. Robin Hood  (talk) 23:13, 16 March 2014 (GMT)

Flames Skill XP and Dragonborn

So, can anyone verify that the skill XP of the Flames spell is reduced by the Dragonborn expansion? I don't own the expansion, but I think it would be kind of odd if that's actually accurate. --Lord Cluttermonkey--178.1.205.3 11:43, 26 December 2013 (GMT)

I did extensive testing on it, and yes, it's definitely reduced. It's almost certainly a bug, but it's hard to say what they intended with absolute certainty. What's really special is that if you modify the Flames spell based on Dragonborn instead of using only Skyrim as your base, even if you just change something innocent like the name, the spell cost will increase by about 65%, as I recall. That doesn't happen with Dragonborn itself, however, due to the way spell effects get loaded.
If you want to test it yourself, it's not difficult, since you have Flames right from the start. Just get into the keep and get your hands unbound, save your game, then cast Flames on whoever you entered with until your Magicka runs out. Exit the game, de-activate (or activate, whichever) Dragonborn, reload your saved game, and try again. You will notice a distinct difference in how much your Destruction skill has increased. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:50, 26 December 2013 (GMT)
In the CK, pre Dragonborn the skill usage multiplier for flames was 1.4. With Dragonborn installed, it's reduced to 1.0. tirnoney 86.171.37.24 09:20, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
That's where I got all the data from. The complications are irritatingly complex. Robin Hood  (talk) 18:43, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Relationship between Aspect of Terror and Augmented Flames - both ranks - as intended by Bethesda developers

The USKP has clearly deemed the impact of AOT on fire spells (the majority) as a "bug". As taking both ranks of Augmented Flames plus the Illusion perk Aspect of :Terror increases flame damage/sec to 27 (from 12), presuming the perk is taken after augmented flames 1,2. Is anyone familiar with the Creation Kit able to verify :once and for all if the fear effect does impact fire damage output in the perk tree. I see the relationship between fear and fire and it seems sound enough to imply the impact.
Interestingly, an Aspect of Terror .esp file has been added to Skyrim Nexus restoring the augmentation and "relationship" consequential to Arthmoor and company deciding this was unintended by the developers. What's the truth here? Any insight as to developer intent much appreciated. MGSBoca (talk) 12:57, 13 April 2014 (GMT)
  • Without the USKP, AOT adds 10 to the base magnitudes of ALL* Magic Effects of a spell (or shout, weapon-enchantment-hit, power, etc.) cast by the perk-owner if and only if that spell contains (from ANY of its Magic Effects) the keyword "MagicInfluenceFear". This keyword is present on the demoralize effects used by the Illusion spells Fear, Rout, and Hysteria, but it's ALSO present on the (different) demoralize effects used by the fire spells in the Destruction school, which are used to implement the Intense Flames perk. As a result of this keyword, AOT applies to fire spells and adds 10 the base magnitude of each contained effect, including the damage effects.
  • [Opinion] I can find nothing in the way the game data is configured that suggests that this damage-increase is intentional as oppposed to being an oversight caused by just being sloppy with the correct application of keywords and/or the specification of perk constraints. Furthermore, the in-game description of AOT only says "Fear spells work on higher level opponents. Cumulative with Kindred Mage and Animage." I don't see how this implies fire spell damage buffs.
  • Under USKP, AOT is changed to further restrict its effect to spells that contain at least one Magic Effect whose Skill field is set to "Illusion". This has the effect of restricting AOT to Fear, Rout, and Hysteria.
*This is a hard-coded limitation of perks; they can't operate differently on the individual Magic Effects of a given spell.
-- Lid-Mop (talk) 06:53, 17 October 2014 (GMT)

Destruction Levelling tests.

I noticed in the talk section here that the reduced XP value of the flames spell is discussed. Perhaps should be mentioned in the Destruction leveling section.

Tested destruction spells after noticing that a lightning mage I made was leveling destruction faster than all the fire mages I'd made before (adhering to the conventional wisdom that fire spells were the best spells to level with).

Only tested flames, frostbite, sparks, lightning bolt, firebolt, ice spike, fire rune, frost rune, and lightning rune.

Amount of damage to opponent does not appear to have any effect on leveling, contrary to the claim on the destruction page. Tested both sparks and frostbite on tcl locked mammoth. A full 300 point magicka bar emptied on a mammoth (which is frost resistant) casting these spells yields identical experience. Use of flames yields less experience. Also did similar tests on giants, with identical results.

Did similar tests with the apprentice level target spells. Fire spells are noticeably more efficient per cast, but the XP seems to be in proportion to the base magicka cost of the spell, so, per cast, firebolt yielded less experience than ice spike and lightning bolt, but on a magicka point basis the XP of all these spells are the same.

Using the much higher cost rune spells yielded similar results. For all the apprentice level spells, the XP appears to be fixed to the base magicka cost of the spells, so a full magicka bar spent on rune spells will yield the same XP as a full magicka bar spent on bolt spells.

Because of the way damage is done by flame spells and the way damage is calculated, flames is a particularly bad spell to level destruction with. The extra burning damage does not contribute to XP, and you get less XP per point of magicka expended. This has undoubtedly contributed to the belief that destruction is particularly difficult to level.

The other thing that I tested was the effect of the dual casting perk on XP, and it is particularly corrosive to XP gain. The 40 percent increase in magicka cost is not factored into the XP gain, nor do dual casted bolt spells count as two spells. So regular use of dual casted spells effectively more than halves your XP gain per point of magicka. Even with full magicka reduction equipment, it will take twice as long to level destruction consistently using the dual casting perk.

Did not test adept/expert/master spells, but expect that the results of such testing will be similar. Optimal leveling in the early levels consists of eschewing flames, and expending as much magicka in combat as one can per encounter. Thus, the desire to cast the often more efficient flame class spells is in some conflict with the desire to enhance leveling speed. — Unsigned comment by 71.211.205.61 (talk) at 23:04 on 30 August 2014

Do you have the Dragonborn expansion installed? With Dragonborn the experience gained from using Flames is abysmal. With just vanilla Skyrim the difference between the spells is pretty negligible in terms of experience gain. You're right, the extra burn damage from Flames isn't taken into account but because of its cheaper cost compared to Frostbite and Shock, you'll get to use it more often. Most players will stop using those spells anyway as soon as they can perk Apprentice Destruction because the higher tier spells offer much better damage and experience. As you're probably aware, Runes in particular offer amazing experience returns for their cost.Sdgundamx (talk) 05:10, 27 September 2014 (GMT)

Misinformation on the flames spell

While I will concede that the information given for the magicka efficiency of the flames spell is correct in the base game I feel it should be noted that in all circumstances ignite is more magicka efficient ie. 2 ranks augmented flames, Azhidal, as well as apprentice and novice destruction, and aspect of terror, flames comes in at 30 damage per second for 3 magicka a second, ignite on the other hand comes in at 330 damage a cast for 8 magicka, resulting in ignite being 4.125 times as magicka efficient. I use this particular case as my example as it gives maximum damage per magicka for each spell so as to give flames the best chance however it still loses out to ignite. Am I missing something about the flames spell? 174.52.55.32 05:40, 18 September 2014 (GMT)

You're correct; I've updated the page. Robin Hood  (talk) 06:23, 18 September 2014 (GMT)

xp from staffs

I'm getting destruction xp from using Frostbite and Sparks staffs on 360, fully patched as of 2015/08/22. It's an extremely small amount of xp, or maybe moderately small and just doesn't always happen, but it's still enough that had I known about it ahead of time, I would have done things differently in my current play-through. I think it's worth mentioning in the official destruction entry here, but I've never edited a wiki before and would rather mention it here on the discussion page first. Yes, I'm completely certain I am getting xp from the staffs. I have a save where destruction is just a tiny bit away from hitting level 16. A couple seconds of staff-blast that hits something valid, and destruction goes up to 16. No standing in fire or hitting something with a torch. Are there any other ways I could be getting destruction xp without knowing it?

Cloak Spells and Experience

I have been using a character that has Flame Cloak as their main spell. It appears that no experience points are awarded for use of this spell. After about 25 bandit kills my destruction experience skill bar has not moved at all. Is this a bug or designed? — Unsigned comment by 97.117.139.77 (talk) at 10:10 on 6 April 2016‎

You're correct, the cloak spells give no experience whatsoever. There are a couple of other Destruction spells that also don't give XP. If you look at the Spells section and sort by the Skill XP column, you'll see which ones give little or no XP. I would say these are likely to be bugs, but it's impossible to be absolutely certain. Robin Hood  (talk) 16:49, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
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