Online talk:Achievements

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Platform Achievements Split?[edit]

With 608 achievements programmed into the game, I am not sure how well this page will fare if we also throw in the platform specific achievements (Xbox One, PS4, Steam (if it finds its way onto there)). So should we prepare to keep these two pages separate preemptively? The only trouble is coming up with a name for the other other page (Platform Achievements is the best I could think of off the top of my head), and we'd obviously have some confusion from any split. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 22:23, 17 March 2014 (GMT)

It's probable that with the new way achievements work on Xbox One, there won't be any difference in achievements. X1 supports many many more achievements than the 360. And it won't likely make it's way onto steam. If it did, there wouldn't be steam specific achievements (that's how SWTOR and LOTRO do it at least). Jeancey (talk) 23:31, 17 March 2014 (GMT)
Yeah, it's a bit premature to talk about splits that may be required depending on platforms, since so far we don't know anything about the console versions. However, as for a general split, it might not be a bad idea. This page is quite long compared to previous games. Possibly splitting off each sub-section into its own page might not be a bad plan. (Though that would leave one page for just "Fishing Achievements", which isn't all that interesting.) As it is, it's already hard to link to, because there's two headers each for the Alliance regions as well as Cyrodiil and Coldharbour, and FIVE headers marked simply "General". I'd think combining the Exploration and Quest sections for each Alliance region might be useful. After all, a player in the Dominion isn't likely to have much interest in achievements only available to Covenant and Pact players, so it'd be useful to see all the relevant ones together instead of split into two lists half a page away from eachother. (Yeah, I understand that Level 50 players can enter opposing Alliance zones, but that will be a small minority of players I think.) Also, it might help to re-order some of these sections to group related Achievements together, rather than simply defaulting to alphabetical order. For instance, the Ranks section under Alliance War should be ordered from lowest to highest Rank. (I'd have done so myself when I split it apart from the General Alliance achievements, but I don't have a source for the proper order of ranks.) And if you want an alphabetical list, well, the lists are sortable, so just click the name column. Done. Anyhow, I've toiled over this page for half a week now, I think I'll move on to something else next. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 22:51, 21 March 2014 (GMT)
Considering the number of achievements and the hefty size of this article as it is, I think a split is necessary for the individual sections. I have one of the best Internet services in the US, and I'm taking a notable amount of time to load this page. Our users with worse services might not even be able to load this page reliably. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 16:53, 22 March 2014 (GMT)
It could be split to subpages and still all displayed here, that should improve load time. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 16:57, 22 March 2014 (GMT)
Well, I split them all up and transcluded here. Not sure it's made any impact on load-time, but at least now if we want we can link to the individual pages, and those at least will load fairly quickly. I thought about breaking things up further - the ON:Exploration Achievements page is still somewhat long, might make sense to break that one up by Alliance. The rest are alright I suppose, though I think we should still look into sorting them in a better way. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 19:24, 22 March 2014 (GMT)

() The page still takes quite a while to load (about 10 seconds on my computer and about 20 seconds on my phone when it's on 3G). I have a pretty fast connection and I bet a bunch of stuff is cached, meaning that others will probably have a much slower experience than I did. I ran it through a Web Page Analyzer, which reports that even on a T1 the page will load in 55.77 seconds. The biggest bottleneck is the fact that there are 243 images resulting in 1.14 MB of images, which will load much more slowly than if we had one 1.14 MB image (resulting in a "death by a thousand cuts" to the load time). Each image is only about 275 bytes, so we probably can't reduce them any more. I think the only thing we can do is stop transcluding and just have this be a landing page to the other achievement pages, like we do with Online:Skills. -Thunderforge (talk) 20:26, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

Even ignoring the load times, I think the combined page is just to unwieldy to be useful. The information would be much more accessible as a list pointing to the individual pages. --Swordmage (talk) 20:48, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

() Since we now have the console achievements, it seems like a good time to revisit this issue. This page is much too large even by Wikipedia standards, and all the subpages are already set up so it'll be an easy split. Unless anyone objects, I'll be relaunching this page as this soon. —Legoless (talk) 20:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I've gone ahead with the proposed changes, hopefully it'll improve the load times. —Legoless (talk) 16:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Achievement pages[edit]

What are we going to do with all these achievement pages that are linked in the table? Many of them will be trivial to the point that they needn't be populated at all and some have names that will need disambiguation (for instance, many of the kill named MOB achievement names are just the name of the MOB and what more is there to say about the achievement anyway?). Currently, the few links that resolve are either links to the named MOB or to a page containing relevant information (e.g., fishing achievements linked to the appropriate section of the list of fish per zone).

I have a feeling that the best thing to do is to eliminate most, if not all, of the links in the Name of Achievement column and just add a bit of amplification information when needed in the description (e.g., the number of kills for each level of "Slayer of Daedra" or a link to the skyshard section of the zone pages for skyshard achievements). If there are any achievements that need an interesting page, we can always have them as special cases. --Swordmage (talk) 22:50, 25 March 2014 (GMT)

I always figured that we'd just do the same thing that we did for Skyrim:Achievements and link to an "achievements" subsection of the relevant page, e.g. Skyrim:Bleak Falls Barrow (achievement). I don't think we have any instances from that game where an achievement has its own page, they just always link to a subsection of another page. -Thunderforge (talk) 23:10, 25 March 2014 (GMT)
That makes much more sense than what I was afraid would happen. I assume this means that any specific information (like number of kills for kill achievements) will be in the achievements section on the relevant page (like the ON:Creatures page).--Swordmage (talk) 06:56, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
You've got it right. For instance, we already have Forgotten Crypts#Achievements, which if we follow the Skyrim model would be linked to from Slayer of Forgotten Crypts and the two others. Having ones like Daedra Slayer on the daedra page makes sense. Also following the Skyrim model would mean that achievements are only listed on the most specific page. For instance, Slayer of Forgotten Crypts would be on the Forgotten Crypts page, not on Deshaan or the Ebonheart Pact. This will limit the number of achievements on any given page to a manageable size. If we do wind up witha bunch, we can just do what we did with Fishing#Achievements and link to some condensed display of them. -Thunderforge (talk) 07:32, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
I already gave my opinion when this was brought up on my talk page. I just don't think creating hundreds of redirects (potentially thousands if the expansions fill up the rest of Tamriel to the same degree as what currently exists) is necessary or even all that beneficial. Just correct the links on the Achievement pages to point to where they're supposed to instead. A redirect which is only linked from one page, and on a term that users aren't all that likely to search for (and even if they did, the page with the achievement would probably be the first result) just isn't all that useful. I would like to break down some of the achievement trees the way I did on the Fishing page linked above. In particular, the Exploration Achievements form similar trees. (And notably, it seems the Public Dungeons with Group Achievements do NOT contribute to the larger Exploration Achievements, at least in the last patch.) I think having a single page outlining things like the various <X> Slayer Achievements is valid, and one for Collectibles as well. They'd maybe fit somewhere under ON:Activities, which is currently an underused page. Thinking of adding Treasure Maps, Sight Seeing ("Discover <Zone>'s Locales"), and <X> Hunter achievements there as well. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 15:28, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
I'd be okay with skipping the redirects and just linking directly to where we need it to be. However, I still think it's helpful to have achievements be on the most specific page. If I go to the Stonefalls page, I'd like to see the Stonefalls Quest (complete X quests in Stonefalls), Stonefalls Skyshard (find 16 Skyshards in Stonefalls), and Sight Seeing (find all the sight seeing locations in Stonefalls) achievements for the region as a whole. You mentioned having a page outlining things like the Collectibles and dungeons. Wouldn't that be Online:Collectibles Achievements and Online:Dungeons Achievements? We could easily add a section that includes an achievement tree for those pages. -Thunderforge (talk) 18:04, 26 March 2014 (GMT)
Yeah, but there's more information. Like for Collectibles, I know exactly which trophies you have to collect and can at least guess from which types of enemies (that will need to be looked into, but usually it's pretty obvious). Sight-seeing we also have on the Zones' pages, listed under the "Points of Interest", and they're listed intermingled among all the other exploration achievements but divided by Alliance on the Dungeon Achievements page, but one page which lists all PoIs in all Zones (and nothing else) would be useful, and likewise for the "Hunter" type achievements. — Unsigned comment by TheRealLurlock (talkcontribs) at 18:14 on 26 March 2014

Format changes[edit]

I'd like to propose a few changes to the format of these pages. First, I think we should swap the "Name of Achievement" and "Points" columns. It makes more sense for the Achievement name to be next to the icon, and that's how they appear when they're by themselves on the relevant pages. Also I'd like to shorten it to just "Achievement". The "Name of" bit is unnecessarily wordy, and it should be self-explanatory. While we're at it, are we really planning on making hundreds of pages (even if they're just redirects) for every single one of these? I for one don't think it's at all necessary, and I think we'd be better off just not having them be links at all. It made a bit of sense in the earlier games when there weren't so many of them, but here it just seems like a lot of work for no real benefit. In some cases, I've added a column for "Location", which basically does the same thing. For achievements not tied to a specific location, we could put some other sort of link in an extra column, but linking the achievement itself I just don't think is needed. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 02:47, 13 April 2014 (GMT)

I'm fine with swapping name of achievement and points and also shortening "Name of Achievement" to just "Achievement". I believe that it is important to link to the page that further describes how to earn the achievement (e.g. the quest page for an achievement granted by completing a quest), but I would be alright with directly linking to Online:Quest Name#Achievements rather than creating redirect pages that go to that spot. As for a location column, I'm kind of on the fence about it. I don't know if it's really necessary especially if we are linking to the quest pages anyway, but I wouldn't be too upset if it stayed there. -Thunderforge (talk) 03:32, 13 April 2014 (GMT)
Well, it depends on the type of achievement. I put the locations in for all the "Hunter" and "Explorer" type achievements, for example, and it would also make sense for the "Quest" achievements - which are really not tied to a single quest but rather a string of them tied to one subzone. For many of them, I don't know if there's really any page worth linking to, especially those in the various "General" sections. Like, what do you link to for "Altmer Slayer" in the Alliance War General section? Altmer? That makes no sense, really. Everything you need to know about that achievement is already right there on the table. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 03:49, 13 April 2014 (GMT)
For that specific example, I'd link it to the Alliance War page in the event that an achievements section gets added, which makes perfect sense to me. If others disagree, I'd be alright with compromising by not having links for achievements such as that, but still having links for achievements that are quest-related. I'd also be in favor of having links to location-based achievements (e.g. sites, skyshards, etc.) which would link to an achievements section on the page of the location. -Thunderforge (talk) 04:04, 13 April 2014 (GMT)
Yeah, things like Skyshards and Discover Locales achievements are another matter, since there's no one location you can link to. Likewise for the "Complete all <X> quests in <Y> zone" or things like that. Anyhow, for the single-location achievements, when I copy them to those locations pages, I'm removing the links, since any such link would only link to the page you're already looking at... — TheRealLurlock (talk) 04:20, 13 April 2014 (GMT)
I'm not sure I understand the sort of situation that you're describing with the single-location achievements. Could you please provide an example? -Thunderforge (talk) 04:30, 13 April 2014 (GMT)
Potentially you could link the achievement name directly to the relevant page, then the extra location column may not be needed. In this way, the Skyshard achievements could link to Zone#Skyshards, and the Locales achivements could link to Landmarks#Zone. --Enodoc (talk) 08:37, 14 April 2014 (GMT)
On the subject of landmarks - first of all, who called them landmarks? I don't think that term is used in any official capacity by the game. There's either "Point of Interest" (PoI) or "Striking Locales" as they're described in the achievements. Should we follow suit? Or just make all such terms redirect to one place? Second, if we do as you suggest, we should definitely move the Crafting Sites out of the "Points of Interest" sections on the zone pages. Even though some of them use the same icons in-game, the Crafting Sites are NOT required for the achievements (or any achievements AFAIK), and grouping them together implies that they might be, especially if we link to those sections from the Achievements page. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 14:11, 14 April 2014 (GMT)
It was me, sorry :/ The ON-mapicon-Locale.png icon file was called Area of Interest and I thought, if we use 'Area of Interest' it's going to get people confused with 'Points of Interest', which is the term used for all of the places with icons. So I uploaded the icon as Landmark instead, since that's what the Oblivion and Skyrim icons with the same purpose were called. This was before I knew that the most-commonly-used in-game term for them was Locales. What you say about the Crafting Sites is the exact confusion I was trying to avoid by calling the icon Landmarks. Both the Crafting Sites and Locales are "Points of Interest" (as are all cities, dungeons, groves and everything else), which is why I grouped them into a section together, as the "remaining Points of Interest that aren't covered in any other section"; but only the Locales are "Areas of Interest". This was also why I suggested linking to the Landmarks/Locales/whatever-you-want-to-call-it page for those achievements rather than the zone page. --Enodoc (talk) 17:42, 14 April 2014 (GMT)

() I've swapped the columns and shorted "Name of Achievement" to just "Achievement". So now the Achievement tables are consistent across all ESO pages. I've also removed the "sortable" from the tables - there was really no purpose. So long as the achievements are grouped and sorted sensibly, and for the most part they are now, there isn't much reason to have customizable sorting on these tables. (In many cases it was completely useless - the points column was the same all the way down the table, and the "Achievement" column was already alphabetical, so having it sortable is only useful if - I guess you wanted to see them in reverse alphabetical order?) Also, adding colspan headers to group the sections doesn't really play well with sortable tables. I haven't done anything with the links, that'll be another whole piece of work deciding where everything should link to, and I still hold that there's a fair number we won't want to link at all, since there's just no good place for them to go to. But I think this is generally an improvement. Still might want to break things down further - like split the Exploration and Quests pages up by Alliance maybe? And I'm still not sure if it makes sense to transclude them all on this page. There's so many, this page can be slow to load. It might be preferable for this page to simply link to all the sub-pages rather than transcluding them. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 15:59, 18 April 2014 (GMT)

Links[edit]

Okay, let's break this down by section. Here's where I think we should link these:

General[edit]


  • Renowned, Artifact, Feeling Blue..., Envious?? - Largely based on luck, not really much to say about them that isn't in the description. Probably don't need links.
  • Level X! - Again, pretty self-explanatory. If we had a Online:Level page, we could link to it, but only for the first one - no need having 5 links to the same thin in a row.
  • Slayer of X - Each should probably link to the creature parent pages that describe the listed creatures.
  • Pocket Guide: Beastiary - No good place to link this - maybe just Online:Creatures?
  • Treasure Chest X-er - The first one could link to Online:Lockpicking, but the rest, no point, they'd just go to the same place.

Collectibles[edit]


  • There's a page now at Online:Collecting they could link to. Each could link to its relevant subsection.

Alliance War[edit]


General[edit]

  • <Race> Slayer, <Class> Slayer - We could link to the race/class pages, but that's not all that useful. Honestly these are pretty much 100% self-explanatory, and there's no need for links.
  • Avenge/Revenge - These 4 do need some explanation. What exactly constitutes an Avenge or a Revenge kill? I assume one of them is killing someone who just killed your ally, and the other is killing someone that previously killed you? But which is which? That needs to be detailed somewhere.
  • Capture a Keep/Resource - Pretty self-explanatory. Could link to Online:Keeps, but that's not very useful.
  • Close Call Kill, Five Under Five, Ten Under Five - 100% self-explanatory. No link needed.
  • Dealing Damage, Healing Allies and their ilk - Also 100% self-explanatory.
  • Kill a Grand Overlord - Once we know something more about ranks, this should link to the Online:Alliance Ranks page, which currently doesn't exist.

Rank[edit]

  • Well, as I just noted, there's no Online:Alliance Ranks page yet, but these should all link there once there is.

Crafting[edit]


  • The Runestones could link to Online:Runestones.
  • Node Harvester X - The first can link to Online:Gathering. The others would all go to the same place, so don't need links.
  • Crafting Sack Looter X - Basically the same as Node Harvester, only we need to document that a bit more.

Dark Anchors[edit]


  • Throwing Off the Chains - Not really sure what this one is - is this just for your first Dolmen? If so, just link to Online:Dolmens and be done with it.
  • Anchors of the <Alliance> - Link to Online:Dolmens#<Alliance>. Likewise for "Empire".
  • Anchors of Tamriel - Just Online:Dolmens again?
  • Fighting/Resisting/Sent them Back to/Break the Link to Coldharbour - Again just Online:Dolmens. This might be too many links to the same page for one section, though it'd be helpful to know just how many Dolmens it takes to get each of these.
  • Destroy <General> - Should link to the relevant creature page for each general, once they exist.
  • Generals of Molag Bal - Just a parent achievement for getting all the generals. Doesn't really need a link?

Dungeons[edit]


General[edit]

  • The only one that isn't self-explanatory is "This One's on Me". That should probably link to a relevant section on Online:Undaunted once there is one.

Public Dungeons[edit]

  • Should all just link to the relevant Dungeon page, though only one per Dungeon for those which have multiple.

Group Dungeons[edit]

  • Again, link to the relevant location.

Veteran Dungeons[edit]

  • These are trickier - depends whether we want to document the Veteran versions of these dungeons separately from their non-Veteran equivalents. From what I understand, they mostly just share maps and not much else. The enemies are clearly different. For now they could link to the non-Veteran versions until such time as we decide whether to split them up or not. Again, only 1 per dungeon, no sense repeating ourselves.

Exploration[edit]


General[edit]

  • A Bandit's Heart, Golden Palms - Probably need pages to document these.
  • Keeper of the Flame - Not sure what this is - guessing it has to do with a lot of cave exploration?
  • Locale Explorer - Online:Landmarks.
  • M'aiq's Words of Wisdom - Online:M'aiq the Liar.
  • Slaughtered - Online:Slaughterfish.
  • X Cave Explorer - Should all link to the relevant sections on Online:Delves. The Tamriel one should just link to the whole page.

<Alliance>[edit]

  • Exploration - Each dungeon should link to the location page, obviously. The <Zone> Explorer pages could either link to <Zone>#Dungeons or Delves#<Zone>. Not sure which is better.
  • Discovery - Either <Zone>#Points of Interest or Landmarks#<Zone>.
  • Hunting - The relevant location page. At that point, the Location column could be removed.
  • Other - Case by case:
    • Leap of Faith - Online:Elden Tree once it exists.
    • Stop Skooma Abuse - No idea on this one - is there a quest page?
    • The Conciliator - Again, quest page?
    • Nose Dive - Online:Weeping Giant.

Fishing[edit]


  • It appears someone has already done this, I'd again like to say we should only link the first entry per section - no point in having 7 links in a row to the same place.

Skyshards[edit]


  • Should each link to <Zone>#Skyshards.

Quests[edit]


General[edit]

  • Completed X Quests! - First can link to Online:Quests. The rest unlinked.
  • Fighters Guild, Mages Guild - Link to the guild pages.
  • X Hero - No good place, really.

<Alliance>[edit]

  • Each should just link to the last quest in the series for Subzone. The <Zone> Quests links should go to <Zone>#Quests.

Cyrodiil[edit]

  • Each should link to <City>#Quests. Only weird one is Chorrol and Weynon Priory. I'd say just link to Chorrol. Weynon Priory is close enough it might even be worth merging the pages.

Coldharbour[edit]

  • Same deal as above with the Subzone achievements and Coldharbour Quests.
  • The Lights of Meridia - Probably needs a page.

TheRealLurlock (talk) 16:10, 19 April 2014 (GMT)

Platform Achievements[edit]

As expected trophies and achievements have been made for the consoles that are different to the ingame achievements on the PC version. The best place seemed to be a separate page, but the name could be refined, Achievements. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:31, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

They appear to be the same achievements, just a subset of them; all the in-game achievements are still there anyway. I think the name is fine, although we may want to add an {{About}} on Achievements and Trophies so people can find it easily. --Enodoc (talk) 10:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Equivalent achievements for the same action but using different names. Images exist for the trophies, but they are 636x358, not icons, so I'm wary about uploading them yet as not all sites use them (plus the Xbox and PS4 sites that do use them are using different sized thumbnails). Trophies doesn't even have a pointer to achievements yet, so that will need rectified when the name of the page is settled. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:43, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I think that's just because we haven't updated the names on this page yet. Anchors Away, for example, is the current in-game name for Tamriel Anchor Destroyer. I'm happy to wait for the icons; if we're lucky, maybe we could get ZOS to send them to us directly... --Enodoc (talk) 18:59, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I've uploaded 64x64 versions of the images for now. Online:Console Achievements is probably a better name for the page, no need to use brackets if we don't have to. I'd also like to resurrect the discussion above about splitting this page up. —Legoless (talk) 20:40, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Three images appear to use a different icon on the Xbox sites, Cyrodiil Cave Delver, Cyrodiil Champion, and Dawn of a Champion (and not just a different part of the larger image). I'm now seeing that many of the images have already been released full-scale (1500x938) a few months ago, but they're not on the pre-release page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:36, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Achievement count[edit]

Would it be possible for there to be an achievement + achievement point count in each respective DLC's/Chapter's achievement page? Cheers. --Rezalon (talk) 04:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)