Lore talk:Tamrielic Emperors

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Name of Page[edit]

I like the idea of this page, and I'm shocked that we didn't already have something like this. However, not crazy about the name. It does follow Wikipedia's style of naming for this sort of thing, where all pages containing lists must be prefixed with "List of", but that's not generally how we've done things here on UESP. Also, "leaders" sounds a little weak - I'd prefer "rulers", assuming that doesn't violate lore somehow. I'd recommend "Rulers of the Empire", or just "Rulers" if that's not too vague. (There are presumably other places that have had rulers - do we have the lineage of the Aldmeri Dominion? Also the lists of rulers of each of the smaller kingdoms might get their own pages at some point. Anyhow, just my 2 cents on the matter. TheRealLurlock (talk) 11:43, 3 September 2012 (EDT)

I would agree with "Rulers of the Empire", the current title is awkward and, as you said, not consistent with other articles on UESP. — ABCface 13:18, 3 September 2012 (EDT)
That would be a better title. Also I went through and made some additions and changes, but I think much more work needs to be done to bring this article up to standard (for one, the dates are formatted differently in some section, and then Cuhlecain didn't lead the First, Second, or Third Empires, but was instead only a significant regional leader until Tiber Septim founded the Third Empire).76.181.68.59 21:05, 3 September 2012 (EDT)
Or how about "Tamrielic Emperors"? I feel the title should get across the idea that this is a list of all the rulers of each of the three Tamrielic Empires, not the rulers of any single Empire (which "Rulers of the Empire" and "List of leaders of the Empire" imply), or lesser rulers (lords of provinces, city-states, counties, holds, etc). Also, how do you propose a page move here? I can't find an info page that lists those kinds of maintenance procedures.76.181.68.59 13:28, 5 September 2012 (EDT)
That makes sense too, probably more so, for the reasons you gave. See the {{Rename}} template. — ABCface 18:58, 8 September 2012 (EDT)
Thank you. I added the tag. 76.181.68.59 15:30, 10 September 2012 (EDT)

First Empire of the Nords?[edit]

Should the Nordic First Empire be incorporated into the list? It ruled most of northern Tamriel at one point, and contributed to the founding of the southern Alessian empire. —Legoless (talk) 19:25, 10 September 2012 (EDT)

Well, the name of the "First Empire of the Nords" was more of a testament to its size than to it being an actual empire. The rulers where still called high kings and not emperors. Plus, the traditional Tamrielic concept of an Empire really has its roots in Cyrodiil. -- Kertaw48 (talk) 21:45, 3 December 2012 (GMT)

Juilek[edit]

Why is Juilek listed as an emperor? He was a prince before he was killed - Reman III was still emperor at his time of death according to the 2920 series.

--Jimeee (talk) 15:21, 8 November 2012 (GMT)

Removed. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 15:53, 8 November 2012 (GMT)

Third Empire[edit]

Shouldn't Tiber be put under Interregnum along with Cuhlecain, at least until the 2E 896? According to The Arcturian Heresy, he crowned himself "First Emperor of Tamriel" at the end of his campaigns. The same book says he was crowned as "Emperor of All Cyrodiil" after taking the Citadel, i.e. taking the Imperial City in 2E 854. The question is, should we differentiate the two offices? The only real downside to this would be expanding the already weirdly-looking "Died/Overthrown" column header to "Died/Overthrown/Office Abolished". -- Kertaw48 (talk) 21:45, 3 December 2012 (GMT)

Sidri-Ashak[edit]

Potentate Sidri-Ashak needs to be on here somewhere. This is the only source. —Legoless (talk) 15:13, 14 June 2014 (GMT)

Shor-El[edit]

This guy gets mentioned exactly once in the lore released thus far - in "Where were You when the Dragon Broke?" He's mentioned in the same context as Hestra - as an Emperor within the Amulet of Kings' oversoul who witnesses the events of the Dragonbreak and perceives Cyrodiil as an egg during this time period. The lore page on Shor here at UESP seems to connect him with an avatar of that god, but considering the context of this book it seems to me as if he were a mortal Cyrodiilic emperor of the First Era. Does anyone agree? Pilaf The Defiler (talk) 09:18, 2 September 2014 (GMT)

I agree, given the context. Aside from a similar name, he has no connection to Shor any more than he does to Auri-El. Seems like he was an Alessian emperor? —Legoless (talk) 14:24, 2 September 2014 (GMT)
I'm guessing an Alessian emperor, yes, considering the timeframe and context. He's mentioned right after Hestra, so perhaps he ruled after her death? Pilaf The Defiler (talk) 06:07, 7 September 2014 (GMT)

Ami-El[edit]

So what are we doing about this chap? Last time we talked it was discovered the only source was a user called Fiore1300 who supposedly received a paragraph from gstaff mentioning this character. Note that this info is second hand and not directly from gstaff (a reliable source).

The last discussion didn't really have a clear outcome and there was talk about assuming good faith and/or some added verification. So what road are we going down? As it stands, the only source for this character is a link to the TIL timeline, and that's not really acceptable.

Personally, I disagree with the inclusion of Ami-El entirely for the reason that the source is not strong enough. In a recent Loremaster's Archive, a user added some headcanon to Ami-El's background, and in true Zenimax fashion it was completely ignored in the answer section, which only strengthens my belief that the validity of this character is tenuous. --Jimeee (talk) 15:03, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Under our current policy of ignoring half the contents of the LA Q&As, he shouldn't be included here. Without being able to validate that gstaff comment we can't rightfully use it as an OOG source either. —Legoless (talk) 15:09, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

() Just want to note that I've re-added Ami-El, but with a different source: the original "1E 358" timeline entry from The Imperial Library. Assuming that source is an acceptable OOG source (as far as I can tell it is since it was allowed to stand on Lore:Direnni), then we at least know Ami-El existed and ruled in 1E 358. Croaker (talk) 21:37, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

That timeline is not an acceptable source, and its use on the Direnni article is contested and should probably be removed as well. I've therefore undone your addition. —Legoless (talk) 22:02, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
Fine by me, as long the matter of Ami-El is conclusively settled one way or the other. I'm tired of the uncertainty. My rationale for supporting the TIL source rested solely on its inclusion in the Direnni article anyway. Croaker (talk) 22:22, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
Likewise, just a shame no one could ever find a source for this guy. —Legoless (talk) 00:40, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

() Having done some fruitless searches for an alternative source of any kind and waited a few weeks for someone else to succeed where I failed, I've gone ahead and removed the Ami-El statements from the Direnni and First Era articles. This means that as of this comment, Ami-El is officially removed from all mainspace articles at UESP. Maybe one day we'll hear of him again. Croaker (talk) 07:00, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

They did just the day before you posted this. In ESO-RP's second Loremaster Special they say Alessian Order records show that Ami-El was assassinated by his own daughter, and that he was Belharza's successor. What do you guys make of this? The Rim of the Sky (talk) 19:15, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
It should be an acceptable OOG source given that a prior interview with Schick is treated as such. I'll give it a listen. The timing of the interview, within the same time period that Ami-El's fate on UESP is decided, is interesting. Kismet, perhaps? Croaker (talk) 20:42, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Follow-up: I got my hopes up. Unfortunately, the bit about Ami-El and his daughter (starts around 7:00 in the interview) comes from a fan question posed to Schick/Phrastus, not from Schick's actual answers. While there's plenty of other usable info in the interview, we've still got nothing to firmly anchor Ami-El in canon. Croaker (talk) 21:23, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
I believe in order to determine the canonicity of what the interviewers say, we would have to know if Lawrence Shick approved the questions and thought of answers beforehand, or if he just made the answers on the spot. I believe it to be the first, considering the ESO-RP team knew he would be the interviewee a month before the interview. The question did not ask about Ami-El, it merely mentioned him as part of context. It was not essential, but I think Lawrence may have wanted to keep it in. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 06:35, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
As Legoless says near the top of this discussion, current policy is to disregard interviewer questions entirely in Lore Master interviews. If Schick truly intended the Ami-El question to be canon, he should have said so, then we could use it. Croaker (talk) 07:49, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
I agree with this. In classic Zenimax fashion, Schick answers in an extremely vague manner and pretty much disregards the entire part about Ami-El. This makes it far too open ended to infer anything. If Schick said something... anything that specifically confirmed Ami-El's existence, I would change my stance. --Jimeee (talk) 15:55, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
If I could add to this conversation, I was the one who originally contacted GStaff regarding Ami-El for my Skyrim Timeline project over at the old offcial forum. I originally took screenshots of the conversation to give to Lady Nerevar at TIL as proof. She never ended up posting them, so they've sat on my hard drive for a few years. Dug them back up when I came across this thread. I have uploaded them here https://ibb.co/jkADvQ and here https://ibb.co/cdTNpk This is as much proof as I can offer. Fiore1300 (talk) 03:34, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
I just realized that the screenshots I posted concerned the Aetherium Wars, not the topic at hand. I don't have screenshots of the original Ami-El statement, because that was not a private conversation between myself and GStaff. I believe it was a public comment by GStaff himself. I am currently scouring the old forum, but the place has become impossible to search in any sort of organized fashion. You can find the statement recorded on TIL here: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-matt-grandstaffs-posts and here is a thread where we talked about the revelation in parallel to the official forum thread: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/what-do-we-know-ami-el I will try to search the offical forums more thoroughly some other time. Fiore1300 (talk) 04:06, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
I decided to try and look and I have found the thread (started by yourself): http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1481552-ami-el-anyone-know-sauces-for-this-figure/
Gstaff's comment (as it appears on TIL) is still there, so I'm happy that the source is now actually verified. The only thing that bothers me is if Ami-El only exists in Bethesda's secret timeline... when and how the hell did his name get leaked to the public years ago? He is mentioned in no other official material. The only clue I have is LadyN's comment: "My guess would be that it came from the original pre-Morrowind timeline that was given to TIL way back when." It implies Bethesda gave TIL their timeline years ago and it was uploaded in its entirety (with Ami-El in there). --Jimeee (talk) 08:56, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
I would never have thought to check the Past Elder Scrolls Games forum. Nice work. Regarding the original timeline, it seems it was pre-TIL, when the website was still known as Xanathar's Library back in 2002. Official forum user Benefactor claims to have found the oldest reference to Ami-El dating from 2002 on Xan's Library using the Internet Wayback Machine. Benefactor also mentions that there was a timeline on the official site at around the same time (which wasn't saved by the Wayback Machine, unfortunately). It might be worth some investigation, but I doubt if it contains any hidden gems. Lady N herself has said that the Ami-El mention was the only thing completely removed from the TIL timeline due to lack of any reference. Fiore1300 (talk) 03:31, 21 July 2017 (UTC)