Lore talk:Stormcloak Rebellion

Schrödinger's Stormcloak

Either the Rebellion succeeded, or it didn't.

No nonsense about Elder Scrolls predicting two outcomes, puhleez. Bethesda will have to decide whether the Hero joined the Imperials or the Stormcloaks and write history from there. And then this lore page can take it from there. CapnZapp (talk) 17:00, 20 November 2012 (GMT)

The thing about the Elder Scrolls is pure nonsense. The page sucks, no doubt about it. It basically exists just to solve red links. I won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Bethesda will probably use a dragon break, but we can't speculate on the page concerning what they'll do. Do you have some suggestions for improvement, or is this just about complaining? Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 17:12, 20 November 2012 (GMT)

I removed the Elder Scrolls prediction cleanup notice. But I'm not sure what to do about the Battles of Windhelm and Solitude. For the Battle of Whiterun one could just remove the outcome altogether, the battle takes place anyway. Another way Bethesda could resolve this, is to introduce events that make the outcome of the civil war irrelevant. --Alfwyn (talk) 17:28, 20 November 2012 (GMT)

Is it really even necessary to reference the Battle of Solitude or the Battle of Windhelm? There are several major wars listed on the Wars lore page that have little or no reference to specific battles. On another note, I see it all over various sites for the Elder Scrolls, but what's the actual source from the game that establishes that the Legion in Skyrim is the Fourth Legion?--DagmarH (talk) 01:05, 21 November 2012 (GMT)

Some wars reference few or no major battles because of a lack of information, not a lack of relevance. There appears to be no source for the claim that the Legion in Skyrim is the Fourth Legion. Nothing I could find in the game files, at any rate. It was added in this this edit by an anon shortly after Skyrim's release. Other sites probably ripped off the information from us. They tend to do that. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 02:34, 21 November 2012 (GMT)

Last I checked, Lore articles that talk about the player's choice never specify the outcome, where the game specific articles do. For instance, this page says it is unclear whether or not the Dragonborn decided to kill Paarthurnax or not. This page should probably be cleaned up a bit. But that might have to wait until TES VI comes out. Schiffy (talk) 04:59, 18 December 2012 (GMT)

Major Battles

This entire section on the page should be deleted. Player-dependent events, etc. The Skyrim civil war page has gotten pretty good; we should trust it to do the heavy lifting on documenting events based on player choices. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 18:56, 28 April 2013 (GMT)

Length of Stormcloak Rebellion

In Tending the Flames, Queen Elisif had banned the annual festival because she believed it was in poor taste, even though the Bards College had been putting it on every year since "time immemorial". I think we can reasonably infer that it was the first time the festival was to be celebrated since Torygg's death, the start of the Stormcloak Rebellion, and that therefore, the rebellion had been going on for less than a year before Ulfric was captured. I think that's worth noting on the page. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 17:28, 9 April 2014 (GMT)

I'd support that. I'm certain I have read a source/dialogue that dates the rebellion to several months, but I can't find it right now. --Jimeee (talk) 17:43, 9 April 2014 (GMT)

You also have Roggvir's execution when you enter Solitude, with people referencing his opening the gate for Ulfric after Torygg's death as a fairly recent event. I looked through Tullius' and Ulfric's dialogue quickly and couldn't find a reference to a specific duration, but I also am sure I heard something about it somewhere. -- Hargrimm^(T) 18:22, 9 April 2014 (GMT)

But if you talk to Solaf he will mention that he was a Stormcloak soldier "years ago". Perhaps a Stormcloak soldier is another term for one under Eastmarch's command, not necessarily a rebel? But Solaf also says he was wounded in a skirmish near Windhelm... 67.231.171.180 13:04, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

The Stormcloaks existed before the rebellion. They were Ulfric's own private army as far as I remember. —Legoless (talk) 21:13, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Start of the conflict

I disagree with the war being less than a year old. When you ask Solaf about him being a Stormcloak he says: "I was once, but not any more. I was wounded in a skirmish up near Windhelm. This was years ago, mind you." Vulwulf says about his daughter "Lilija joined the Stormcloaks many years ago, when the first of the skirmishes broke out across Skyrim". Now I'm not sure about this but I think Hadvar says that the war really only took off after Torygg died, so if that's what the article's getting at it could use some elaboration. Maybe just saying some minor skirmishes were fought between some early separatists and loyalists (because that's what the quotes seem to suggest). — Unsigned comment by 50.72.53.15 (talk) at 13:52 on 16 November 2014

Ulfric first founded the Stormcloaks several years before the beginning of the war as a private army to carry out his agenda. The skirmishes which Stormcloaks were involved in before the murder of Torygg were not technically part of the Stormcloak Rebellion. Without knowing the purpose of these early Stormcloak missions, I assume they would be roughly comparable with skirmishes in the United States' western territories in the mid-19th century, which were fought on and off for many years before the actual start of the American Civil War. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 20:34, 16 November 2014 (GMT)

Burning of King Olaf

This note has no relevance to the Stormcloak Rebellion. If we had no other information regarding how recent Torygg's death was, the cancellation of the Burning points out two things: If this is the first Burning that has not occurred, it means one has occurred in 4E 200. If Torygg died any time between then and the beginning of Skyrim, so could have the cancellation of the Burning, including in 4E 200. This note proves nothing other than the fact the cancellation occurred some time after Torygg's death, it does not prove he was killed in 4E 201. --Rezalon (talk) 23:05, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you are getting your timings from but they are all wrong. While we don't have a source specifically stating he died in 201, every source says he died "a few months prior" to the game start, which is in Last Seed, which is the 8th month of the year. In order for the festival to have been banned for more than one year, Torygg must have died at least a year prior to the game start. Viarmo states that Torygg was "recently" killed and that Elisif banned the festival because of Toryggs death. Everything about the festival's cancellation proves that Torygg has been dead less than a year ago. It doesn't matter when the banning occurred (which doesn't fit your 4E 200 timing anyway as Torygg died in 201), what matters is the time the festival is due to take place.

To be honest I cannot fathom what your objection is. The statement on the page is true, and the note itself is true. Why would you want to remove a source from a page that validates and explains the accuracy of the note? Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 00:57, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, upon reading through the statement multiple times and working it around my head, I understand where I have confused myself. I'll drop this now non-issue. --Rezalon (talk) 02:12, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Start of the Civil War

Is there some particular reason why the UESP assumes the war started with Torygg's death? All Torygg's death did was escalate the conflict, and make the Empire send up Tullius to quell it.

I'm originally from Cyrodiil, sent here at the request of the Emperor himself. I'm often ordered to places with problems that need fixing. Now, while I'm certain this is all terribly interesting to you, I have important matters to attend. ~Gen. Tullius

A masterstroke by General Tullius! He's only been in charge here for a few months, but he's turned things around for the Empire. We've been trying to catch Ulfric since the war started, but he always seemed to slip through our fingers... like he knew we were coming. This time, the General turned the tables on him. ~Hadvar

My father, the great Bear of Eastmarch, died during my imprisonment after the Markarth Incident. I, his only son, forced to deliver his eulogy via a letter I had smuggled out of prison. Such is the love of Titus Mede for his subjects. When finally set free, I returned to Windhelm, and was greeted by a city in mourning, at one with my own grief and anger. Clamoring in angry voices, calling out for justice, for war, they sat me on the throne. ~Ulfric Stormcloak

It all started here. This rebellion. When the Empire lost the Reach during the Great War, we became desperate. We promised a group of Nord militia free worship in exchange for their help retaking the Hold. Then the Elves found out about it. We were forced to arrest all of them. Ulfric Stormcloak, their leader, used the whole thing as proof that the Empire had abandoned Skyrim. The Rebels called it "The Markarth Incident." It was the founding day for the Stormcloaks, and where this war really started. ~Igmund

Lilija joined the Stormcloaks many years ago, when the first of the skirmishes broke out across Skyrim. I was so proud of her. She served as a Battle Maiden, using her healing arts to help those that fell on the battlefield. Never even lifted a blade in her life. It didn't matter. The Imperial soldiers cut her down... killed her like a dog and left her body to rot in the mud. And that's why I won't rest easy until every single Imperial soldier joins her, and Ulfric sits upon the throne of Skyrim. ~Vulwulf Snow-Shod

I was wounded in a skirmish up near Windhelm. This was years ago, mind you. Now, maybe I don't pick up a blade in Ulfric's name no more, but I still hold with his ideals. Skyrim is Nord land, and we ought to rule it. We don't need no help from the Empire on that count. ~Solaf

There's probably more that I'm just overlooking, but it's certainly better evidence than the war having started in 4E 201. — Unsigned comment by 213.93.45.50 (talk) at 13:48 on 16 July 2020

Skirmishes are actually are quite common in the years leading up to war. India and Pakistan have fought a few wars since independence, but there are many many many skirmishes that fall outside of those wars. Just this past month there was a skirmish between India and China, but no one is saying they are at war. Similarly, Armenia and Azerbaijan had a skirmish just in the last week in which high level officers, including a general, were killed. But they aren't at war (yet). The death of Torygg escalated the conflict TO war. Low level insurgencies often precede or follow full hostilities. There's nothing inherently contradictory with saying the war started in 4E 201 and there were skirmishes before that. Jeancey (talk) 18:24, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm assuming you're the person I've been talking with in the Reddit thread, but just so we're all on the same page, I'm not a lore person at all—lacking even the basics that probably almost everyone else knows—so this is my first time ever even looking at the issue and I have no opinion on it whatsoever at this point. A few thoughts that pop out at me from the above quotes, though:

• Igmund's statement about the founding of the Stormcloaks puts it sometime during the Markarth Incident. I kind of take it as implying that it was towards the end of the incident, but that might just be me. The founding of the Stormcloaks is an important event, but does not necessarily imply that anyone's at war.
• Ulfric Stormcloak's father died while he was in prison and, some time later, Ulfric returned to Windhelm, a city "clamoring...for war", which supports the assumption above that war had not yet broken out, even if there was obviously a lot of tension.
• Not long after that, skirmishes began and Lilija joined the Stormcloaks "many years ago". This is still vague, but implies that at the point she joined, it was still "skirmishes", not "war". Same logic applies to Solaf's statement.
• On the flip side, while murdering Torygg seems almost certain to ignite a war if there wasn't one at that point, I don't see any hard evidence that that was what started the war.

So, from my perspective, as of "years ago" there wasn't a war yet, but there almost certainly was one either before or starting with Torygg's death. Beyond that, I don't have a good enough background in our lore to narrow it down further. I'm sure someone with better knowledge of ES lore will be along shortly to give their thoughts. :) – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 18:28, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

For "Jeancey", why do you conveniently overlook Igmund's, Hadvar's, and Uflric's quotes? The whole reason the Stormcloaks got their name was because of their rebellion, we're told this quite clearly by both Legate Rikke and the Stormcloak Commanders themselves. There's nothing stating the war started in 4E 201, and plenty of evidence to show that it at least started before. 213.93.45.50 18:38, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Not entirely sure why my name is in quotation marks, but okay. Igmund's statement implies pretty directly that the war isn't considered by most people to have started with Markarth Incident. His phrasing means he's in the minority. As RH70 said, "clamoring for war" means there wasn't war yet, but they want it. Rebellions usually begin WELL before the full scale war, and they gain support and stage attacks, but it isn't a war. That's very clearly what was happening here. Jeancey (talk) 18:43, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

(←) It is accepted that the death of High King Torygg in 4E 201 was the start of the Civil War. See Sybille Stentor's dialogue: "Ulfric showed up at the gates of Solitude requesting an audience. We thought he was here to ask Torygg to declare independence. By the time we realized Ulfric was here to challenge Torygg... it was already too late." If the rebellion had already been in full swing at that time, Torygg would not have met with him as Ulfric would have been considered a traitor. Instead, Ulfric followed Nordic custom and only declared himself High King after challenging and killing Torygg. All of the quotes supplied above are evidence of nothing but Stormcloak agitation for many years prior to war breaking out. —⁠Legoless (talk) 19:08, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Hadvar already confirms that the Legion had been trying to arrest Ulfric prior to the murder of Torygg; so the whole "he would have been considered a traitor" argument is moot. 213.93.45.50 20:26, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow. Hadvar says that they've been trying to capture Ulfric since the start of the war and that Tullius has been there for months. That clearly suggests that the war has been longer than a few months. But looking at Sybille's statement, if they'd been at war and trying to capture him when he showed up at the gates of Solitude, they would've simply clapped him in chains and thrown him in the dungeon, not granted him an audience with Torygg. If anything, I think Sybille's statement indicates that there was no war at the time and that they were at least willing to hear Ulfric out. The way I see it, that meeting was likely at the beginning of 4E 201. Ulfric then kills Torygg, igniting the war (hence what sounds an awful lot like a call to war in Nords Arise!, which is clearly set after Torygg's death). The Imperials try to capture Ulfric and fail, so they turn to Tullius for help. Tullius is there for a few months...up to Last Seed, which is when Skyrim starts. What timeline do you see? – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 21:48, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

To add in comparisons to the American Civil War, there were multiple violent skirmishes before that Civil War happened as well. For example, Bleeding Kansas, a bloody conflict between abolitionists and pro-slavery settlers. Another prominent example would be the John Brown Raids. The real start of the Skyrim Civil War seems to be most clearly the death of the High King, everything else was just the buildup on the road to Civil War. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 19:19, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Start of the Civil War Continued

Moved from article, which inserted it randomly in the middle of a note.

The fact that Vulwulf Snow-Shod reveals his deceased daughter, Lilija, joined the Stormcloaks as a Battle-Maiden years prior (“when the first of the skirmishes broke out across Skyrim”, as he puts it), combined with how his son, Asgeir, reveals he was a stormcloak soldier in his younger days further emphasizes the fact that the war had been going on for years

For the same reasons as above, keeping the true start date at Torygg dying is the only thing that makes sense. Perhaps the article should be amended to point out that there was the previous Markarth Incident that some people in-universe may count at the "true" start of the rebellion. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 05:08, 24 November 2021 (UTC)