Lore talk:Sheogorath

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Artifacts[edit]

Shouldn't the Staff of Sheograth and the Charity of Madness also be listed here?

I think the charity of madness is a mere gift from Sheogorath and not really an artifact as such. Im not 100% sure though so another opinion would be great. Kylogorath 17:12, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Spear of Bitter Mercy[edit]

I'm no expert on lore, but it was my understanding that the Spear of Bitter Mercy was actually associated with Hircine, not Sheogorath, the story being that Sheogorath somehow stole it from Hircine or won it in a bet or something like that. Anyone know for sure? --TheRealLurlock Talk 23:53, 3 March 2007 (EST)

That's an interesting point; in Battlespire and the book "The Posting Of The Hunt" the Spear is associated with Hircine, and the Wild Hunt. Then it seems by Morrowind, The Madgod had it and gave it to the Nerevarine. Also, Hircine did indeed lose a bet with Sheogorath in Volume 6 of the 16 Accords of Madness. Although it doesn't mention the spear exchanging hands, it would retroactively explain why Sheogorath had it. JosefEngarr (talk) 04:32, 31 January 2013 (GMT)

Jyggalag[edit]

Is there an image of him in his true form and can some one please upload it User:Kami-Sama

Aye, there's a picture right here on his page: Shivering:Jyggalag Th232 07:32, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Footnotes?[edit]

Most of the rest of this site (that I've seen, at least) doesn't use footnotes; the ones on this page cause at least one other page to look odd. Specifically, the Daedric Princes page displays the 1 and 2 from the General Information section, but the links don't go anywhere. For consistency with the rest of the site and in order to prevent bad links, I think the footnotes on this page should be removed. DisplacedAvenger 14:02, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

This may well be the only article on UESPWiki that has footnotes. On the other hand, it seems that encouraging more footnotes, especially on Tamriel pages where the information gets collected from multiple books and multiple games, might be a good thing in the long run. So I'm a bit reluctant to remove the footnotes, at least not without more of a community-wide discussion on whether or not the site should have them. In the short term, it's easy enough to fix the transcluded versions of the page (and thanks for pointing out that a fix was needed). So I've done that for now; I'd rather wait and hear what other editors have to say before endorsing any more dramatic changes. --NepheleTalk 14:17, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Shivering Isles[edit]

How exactly do people get to the Shivering Isles? Do followers of Sheogorath go there when they die or are they invited there by Sheogorath? I know some just go through the portal though.

I imagine that's one of the things you weren't supposed to notice! Although having said that, you often hear people saying "S/he is on a different planet" or "S/he's away with the fairies", indicating a certain insanity. Maybe if you're really insane, your mind drifts into Sheogorath's realm? --RpehTalk 10:00, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
One of the 16 Accounts of Madness describes Sheogorath collecting a victim in person to carry back to the Isles, and the Fringe (the enclosed area around the door) seems to be the holding place for people who haven't quite qualified to get in yet. So I think they physically go there, in various ways. It's not some kind of afterlife, because there are ghosts in the Isles and people can die there. I think the way into planes of Oblivion is also described in, um, that one book about the two guys that try to go explore them. --67.110.221.100 20:16, 5 February 2008 (EST)
Found some stuff at The Imperial Library (sounded more fun than working). The Guide to New Sheoth says: "Arrival to the Shivering Isles is solely at the discretion of Our Lord Sheogorath, Prince of Madness." By "that one book," I meant The Doors of Oblivion, which says that there are various doors to Oblivion scattered about, and that some powerful mages can magic themselves through. So I guess, people choose to walk right in, and Sheogorath chooses to let them. --67.110.221.100 00:06, 6 February 2008 (EST)

Is Shegorath Dead?[edit]

I know this probably sounds like a stupid question, but when the player character defeats jyggalag and sets him free, does this in effect kill Sheogorath? If the character attemps to do the Sheogorath daedric mission, will it still work? Is their no longer a god of maddness, or has this role been over taken by the PC? I'm really confuzzled right now... 69.250.142.218 20:43, 11 December 2007 (EST)

The player becomes Sheogorath; Sheogorath becomes Jyggalag. If you try to do the quest after this point, Haskell makes comments about praying to yourself and guides you through it. See this page for more details. --RpehTCE 02:57, 12 December 2007 (EST)
Technically, no he dosn't die. Jyggalag is Sheogorath, so since Jyggalag's physical form is killed, his spirit still lives in Oblivion, so Sheogorath lives imprisoned in him, such as Jyggalag was imprisoned in Sheogorath. and the Player takes sheogorath's Place, s/he dosn't really BECOME him, because then you would grow a beard, become old and giddy, and be a daedra prince. :P - Lucky the Cat Guy 01:06, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
Lucky, I disagree, as he may on his death, like tiber septim, become an aedra god or daedra prince.Abe Lincon 21:05, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
It is also possible that taking on sheogoraths mantle you too will gradually be driven to insanity and will eventually turn out with the same features as him and same personality, power corrupts and all that (Posted by DrinkOmally 9/2/10) — Unsigned comment by 86.42.124.20 (talk) on 9 February 2010
Possibly. But there are no sources to take inspiration from, since never before has a mortal taken the place of Daedric prince. --SerCenKing Talk 17:13, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
A Mortal cannot kill a Daedra or Aedra (the two types of God). Technically, only gods can kill gods, so, it can be assumed that when the PC "Kills" Sheogorath (s)he is actually just defeating him so that he will reform later in his form as Jyggalag (since the Greymarch was never completed and the shivering Isles was not fully retaken, therefore, Jyggalag's transformation into Sheogorath never happens again).
Sheogorath comes back after 200 years after Oblivion, but there's a lot of speculation that it's your character, since he passes the title of madgod to you in shivering isles and also makes references that he was there when the oblivion gates opened, martin turned into Akatosh, and other things.
I think that Sheogorath is the hero of oblivion because he metions the gray fox, a person who can be anybody as long as you wear his cowl. So only the PC could only know about it, and he turned into a madgod, and thats hardly sporting.

The player becomes Sheogorath; Sheogorath becomes Jyggalag. If you try to do the quest after this point, Haskill makes comments about praying to yourself and guides you through it. And you still get to see it raining dogs on cats! Sheogorath. 37.228.106.160 07:06, 17 May 2013 (GMT)

Meridia being created through Destruction?[edit]

"Sheogorath is one of few Daedric Princes whose creation may be linked to the change or destruction of an Aedra (some of the others include Malacath and Meridia)." Where does it say Meridia was created by the destruction/change of an Aedra? Malacath was, certainly, but the article on Meridia states itself that little is known about her so I'm wondering where this particular tidbit can be found. I'm not doubting the source, I'm genuinely just curious. (193.1.100.7 11:23, 27 April 2008 (EDT))

The answer can be found here and here. The blood of Padomay becomes the Daedra ... --Uniblab 17:09, 5 May 2008 (EDT)
Search TIL for keywords "illicit spectra" 24.97.239.147 16:39, 26 August 2008 (EDT)
Actually, Meridia's a star, not an Aedra. She's still Anuic in origin, but doesn't have the Padomaic influence that the Aedra possess. 216.82.142.13 19:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Sheogorath/Jyggalag[edit]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but in Daggerfall, is Sheogorath without any alliances or enemies because he is just a different form of Jyggalag? Also, is Jyggalag ever mentioned before Shivering Isles?

Try this article. Specifically, "Prior to The Shivering Isles, Jyggalag had only been mentioned in books such as "On Oblivion" but had not appeared in any games." --GuildKnightTalk2me 18:53, 9 April 2009 (EDT)

Personalities differ?[edit]

From Morrowind, Oblivion, and Shivering Isles, Sheogorath has sounded different. in Morrowind, he sounded like a sort of nobleman, in Oblivion he sounded like a Wood elf, and in Shivering Isles, he sounded like a scottish man. In Morrowind, his name was pronounced "Sheh-gg-er-ath" Instead of "Shay-oh-Gore-ath". Is there some obscure info on his real personality? Or is it ment to change, as to add to the Mad-god feel? Lucky the Cat Guy. 20:03, 27 April 2009 (EDT)

People speak differently. His name would sound different if I said it compared to someone from the south, as would it sound different when spoken by someone from Morrowind or Cyrodiil. — Unsigned comment by Kiutu (talkcontribs) on 6 December 2009
As for the personalities and voices, this is the Prince of Madness we're talking about here. To put it simply, his mind doesn't stay put. ESPECIALLY not approaching the Greymarch. 216.82.142.13 19:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Help![edit]

What happens when you atack sheogorath? — Unsigned comment by 124.190.136.187 (talk) on 30 May 2009

He transports you high above the Islea and you fall to your death. --Mr. Oblivion(T-C) 00:18, 30 May 2009 (EDT)

Sheogorath's Madness[edit]

I can hardly believe that Sheogorath is "mad" all his conversations seem like he's acting that he's mad, yet he's very sane AND smart. He does seem to have moody whims at times, he also is very playful, but in the core of his personality it looks like he's very sane and playing tricks on everyone else. Also, the person (people) who created Sheogorath are well versed in Psychology or so it seems (coming from a psychologist's point of view :P) — Unsigned comment by Vandral (talkcontribs) on 3 November 2009

I don't believe the article states that Sheogorath is mad himself. If "madness" is attributed to Sheogorath, it refers to his sphere, which is that of madness. The spheres seem to reflect what the various Daedra govern, but not necessarily are themselves. --Timenn-<talk> 11:17, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Merhunes Dagon's sphere is destruction, and he is fascinated with it, Vaermina's sphere is that of nightmares and she does seem to fit it perfectly, same for Malacath and so on and so forth. Sheogorath seems to be a pariah among Deadra or so it seems, he's different, or just special.
I would use a quote from Mass Effect to answer this: "Genius and Madness are two sides of the same coin" — Unsigned comment by Kiutu (talkcontribs) on 6 December 2009
If I may use another quote from Death Note, "Pretending to be abnormal? Well, that, in itself, is abnormal." Or something to that effect. — Unsigned comment by theSnark (talkcontribs) on 09 May 2010

Apparent design inspiration?[edit]

It might be notable enough to add to the article that Sheogorath's appearance and the reason for it are similar to the Devil in certain Christian sects (eg taking on an unassuming but attractive appearance for the sake of misleading mortals) and his name and tendencies are reminiscent of Lovecraftian horrors? "Sheogorath" seems to look like some hideous lovechild of "Theodore" and "Shoggoth", and he's the Daedric Prince of MADNESS, which figures rather strongly in Lovecraftian mythologies, to say the least. The case for the latter is obviously rather stronger and more specific than the former, as I'm sure various mythologies have a trickster or deciever god with exactly the same tendencies as Satan and Sheogorath. 216.82.142.13 19:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Both points are speculative at best. We know that Sheogorath derives in part from "Theodore" (See the Trivia section of the article) but beyond that, it's just guesswork. The other point is definitely not worth mentioning: plenty of gods and goddesses changed form to deceive mortals and there are more trickster gods than you can shake a prayer mat at. rpeh •TCE 20:23, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Yeah - I could make a fairly strong case for Sheogorath being based on Loki for example. But since there isn't any way to prove that that's the case it shouldn't go on here.--TheAlbinoOrcany_questions? 20:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
The name sounds more like Shub-Niggurath to me (and in fact, upon noticing the name that was the first thing I thought of). 187.138.22.167 07:49, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

um im cunfused[edit]

um where does it say the golden road is the path to insanity? is it in a book i like books they create lovely images in my mind — Unsigned comment by 69.19.14.34 (talk) on 2 March 2011

Follow the link - that's what they're there for. It comes from here. rpeh •TCE 06:28, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Conflicting Information[edit]

The Skyrim:Sheogorath article notes that Sheogorath alludes to being the Champion of Cyrodiil through context. However, the lore article states that the player character from Oblivion is the Sheogorath that is present in Skyrim. Personally, I see Sheogorath's own dialogue as enough evidence to say that he was the player (even prior to Shivering Isles) all along. Sheogorath is known for fooling around with people, and could very have been playing a game with himself and his kin within the events of the Shivering Isles. I back this up by saying that he resembles neither an Argonian nor most other playable races, so the fact that he does not display characteristics of mortal races (aside from eyes similar to Khajiit) could mean that he was never really replaced. He could have created the player character as an avatar of himself, but that still supports that Sheogorath never left power.

This is just my conjecture on the subject. I am looking more for reconciliation between articles, however. 66.36.243.94 17:32, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, we keep conjecture off the pages unless there are exceptional circumstances or the inferences involved are nearly incontrovertible. Anyways, I fail to see how the current articles conflict with each other based on what you said. Sheogorath alludes to being the Champion, the lore article says the player from Oblivion is Sheogorath ... there is no conflict there, they're entirely aligned.
The standing theory, supported by all the evidence in Skyrim and Oblivion, is that the Champion of Cyrodiil became Sheogorath upon stopping the Greymarch, as the entity which preceded the Champion transformed from the Prince of Madness into the Prince of Order. If we presume the Champion transformed into the Sheogorath we see in Skyrim after the events of Oblivion (which we should do, as our interpretations should presume the validity of in-game facts and events whenever possible), there's not even a small conflict between the games and it's not even necessary to ret-con anything. And it's definitely not necessary to presume that the pre-Shivering Isles Sheogorath was the Champion all along. Ockham's Razor FTW. Minor Edits 18:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
But that's the thing. The articles are not talking about the same person. There is no other way to describe the two Sheogoraths without using 'Sheogorath'. It's the idea of two people named Tim not being the same entity. Two separate Sheogoraths are two separate entities, but Sheogorath usurped by an avatar of himself is the same entity.
Explain why that understanding of events is in any way helpful, necessary, or more likely, because I just don't see it. Is it possible? Sure, but nearly anything's possible in these games, and we can't include remote possibilities like the one you're propounding without substantial evidence and, just as importantly, a reason for the twist. I don't think you have either. And yes, it may be hard sometimes to differentiate between pre-Shivering Sheogorath and the Champion, but it's not really a big deal. Treat "Sheogorath" as a title of office, not an entity. I'm sorry if I'm coming off like a dick, I'm just trying to avoid writing another wall of text. Minor Edits 19:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I was not looking to debate which was more appealing under the principle of Occam's Razor. In the very least, I was trying to say that one page should be reconciled or re-worded to fit the other. I feel like one alludes to the one and only Sheogorath having a hand in large events of vanilla Oblivion (which so happens to be the one I prefer, nothing more) while the other page refers to Sheogorath as an appointed position with a millenial (probably the incorrect way to describe that) term.
In continued debate, I guess I do not understand how the cycle would work if another Sheogorath was added to the cycle. Nothing has been said, and I agree conjecture has no place (which is why I have not edited anything) unless as a substitute to nothing when there is available materials, so it is not known whether anything was reclaimed, passed down to oneself, etc. other than the events of Shivering Isles showing Jyggalag being replaced. What I don't get is why Sheogorath would keep similar form, and I do not assume that you know or not. This is all moot, however, as I was looking only for reconciliation; my own conjecture becoming accepted as one official perspective was/is a secondary objective. 66.36.243.94 20:36, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Well, we know why the Champion appears as the old Sheogorath, we just don't have an explicit lore-appropriate justification. But we don't really need one. The Champion could be giving an homage to his predecessor, it could be an involuntary change, etc. Doesn't really matter. Minor Edits 20:54, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Could you tell me why? Just out of curiosity.

() Because players could choose their race and general personality in Oblivion, thus it would be impossible to accommodate every players' vision of his/her character from Oblivion and still include Sheogorath in Skyrim. It would compromise the narratives players have created for their heroes, possibly in both games. Since Sheogorath was and is an incredibly popular personality, the most acceptable compromise for the designers was to have the Champion take on the visage of the last Sheogorath. What's unknown are the contextual specifics: was it a choice or an unavoidable transformation, is this image a transitory facade or is it permanent, is the Champion playing a part or in the grip of madness? We don't know, but we don't need to. Players can fill the gaps as they wish, and since the freedom to do so is part of what makes these games enjoyable, there's no real problem here. Minor Edits 21:48, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

From what I have read the Daedra choose their appearance on Nirn, they can look however they want. The CoC therefore chooses to look like the Sheogorath everyone knows and recognizes, for either tradition's sake or simply because the form still serves its purpose.

I think the point here is just curiosity over why the new Sheogorath would appear like the old one. And on that note here is one explanation (although obviously not the only explanation): Sheogorath the Mad God is a title that can be passed down because Sheogorath was originally just a split personality. However perhaps the title acts in a way that passes along the personality itself with the title. To use an out of game example, the Mask movies. The mask can be worn by different people but the being that the mask unleashes is still generally the same, with slightly different motives depending on who is wearing it. The Mask being still looks similar and acts in a similar way with minor differences. Same with Sheogorath. You take up the title, you become the Mad God. So he would still look similar, in this case a gentleman/banker, but with minor differences, like the white eyes instead of the cat eyes. Because the title of Sheogorath makes the person with the title a god, it would seem logical that that person would actually become the god themselves, and not just be a mortal with that title. So I suppose whoever held that title would become a Daedric Prince? It would be like the prince of order passing down his powers as the prince of madness to another being. Same godly being but with a different personality behind it, in this case instead of the prince of order, it would be the Champion. Since the prince of order was effectively two daedric lords, now that the cycle is over for good, there would be no need for him to hold both roles, and both sets of powers, so passing the title down may be how the prince of order transfers the powers to another being. This is just one theory that may explain not just why both Sheogoraths are similar but why this Daedric god can be passed along like a title while the other Daedric lords are not. — Unsigned comment by 99.251.187.143 (talk) on 26 April 2012

Well, hold on here. The Sheogorath in Skyrim really is different from the original. The new Sheogorath tasks you with fixing the diseased mind of Pelagius III. Can you imagine the original Sheogorath doing anything like that? As for the race thing, Sheogorath has changed his appearance in every game, but maintained the look of a bearded Breton - why should we be shocked that the new Sheogorath would choose to maintain that appearance? Oh, that's right - the Champion of Cyrodil was mortal. But just how mortal was our hero? After finishing "Shivering Isles," Haskill says that you may one day "grow into your new station." Two hundred years is a long time for a newly minted divinity to "grow." We can also be fairly certain that the Champion of Cyrodil was not your garden variety mortal man/woman/whatever. Our hero could freely enter several planes of Oblivion without ill effects. He/She was able to enter the Shivering Isles without going mad (something no other mortal was capable of). In the end, the Champion was chosen by the Nine Divines to put down Umaril the Unfeathered in Oblivion because one of Sheor's avatars, Pelinal Whitestrake, could not. What am I saying? That like the Nerevarine and the Dragonborn that surround him, the Champion of Cyrodil was special. I say he was a Daedra. Thoughts?Black jack king (talk) 10:21, 20 February 2013 (GMT)

Haskill didn't say that. Jyggalag did. :P 99.127.173.78 09:30, 17 December 2013 (GMT)

Sheogorath is Oblivion Champion? I dont think so.[edit]

There's no information that points to this, and multiple things that point's to the opposite. His follower mentions that he's now two facets of the same thing, and his armor now reflects a dual personality in game. Tack onto that elder scrolls lores penchant for lying and misinformation in EVERY game, and we have the very real possibility that Sheogorath has become a bipolar mad god caught between order and chaos. It makes no sense that the champion of cyrodil and the leader of the nights of the nine ascended to daedric power. There was no conduit to do so, it would completely destroy the concept of the wheel and the tower, and you have to assume by that logic that he decided to emulate the previous sheogorah PERFECTLY, which also makes little sense considering the fluxing properties of madness and chaos.

Any theories about the champion of cyrodil becoming the mad god next to jyggalag instead of just being given control of the isles while he was alive is basic speculation, and more over probably just someones individual wish to see his character from a previous game. It shouldnt be in the wiki article as a fact. I edited the article to appease both sides. — Unsigned comment by Sagebeat (talkcontribs) at 13:50 on November 20, 2011

Sheogorath in skyrim is the COC,He even points to in im his diolouge.Quoate I was there for that whole sordid affair.Butterflys[start of shivering isles.]A severed head[the mothers head from the Dark brotherhood questline.[A fox]The grey fox. — Unsigned comment by 83.71.1.114 (talk) at 00:40 on November 21, 2011
the problem with this theory is that is has ruined everyone's oblivion gameplay, people like to choose their own race and gender along with different paths such as the dark brotherhood etc, and this little cameo has pretty much made every choice made in oblivion irrelevant and pointless, i thought bethesda was never going to do something like this as it violates our personal canon of what happened, they are supposed to leave every previous game's events ambiguous so we can decide what happened based on our personal experience. i guess one could say the the COC could have still been any race or gender but because the daedric prince was male and human looking then the coc morphed into an exact replica of sheogorath as time went by as the COC (if it is indeed sheogorath) is now just as mad as its predecessor . Mr.Scryer109.154.178.15 15:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't see how this vague line ruins anybodies personal canon, because what those three things mean are all relative to the person playing. Until, of course, a bunch of people on the internet try to tell you what they mean and you believe them. At which point I would blame the internet, not bethesda.--Affubalator 04:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
A Daedric Prince can take on any appearance they see fit, it wouldn't matter what character you picked it could still be the same person. Being in the Shivering Isles slowly turned people insane, so it isn't unlikely that even the CoC started to become insane overtime. — Unsigned comment by 125.238.28.62 (talk) at 14:59 on December 3, 2011
Sheogorath is the Prince of Madness, namely, he likes to drive other people to madness. So I present to you the counter argument. It is the CoC, and he's taken the form of the previous Sheogorath in an attempt to drive you, the player, crazy.
Joking aside, I would say that the Champion BECAME Sheogorath, in the most literal sense. Once Jyggalag was freed, the entire persona of Sheogorath was put onto the Champion. Memories, personality, etc. Gradually, of course, as trying to stuff the power of a daedric prince into a mortal would probably have dire consequences.
Or, you can just take the easiest route, which is that the CoC chooses to use that form because that's how people know Sheogorath, and what's the point of being a god if nobody recognizes you?--Affubalator 04:24, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I have to agree with affubalator. I think the CoC's looks and personality are completely irrelevent. He/she BECAME Sheogorath. Sheogorath isn't a position or a role. If the argument was based on if the champion became a daedric prince, this would be valid. But they turned into the personality, appearance, gender that Sheogorath embodies. So the champion and Sheogorath are now one and the same by the time of skyrim. -- SABOTAGE99
What I frankly don't understand is why anything would believe anything a Daedra would say; especially Sheogorath. Not to mention Bethesda likes to confuse its players. I think you all make a very good point; Daedra can obviously choose whatever form they please and it's totally possible for the aforementioned to be true but I wonder: why are you all so sure Sheogorath is not lying or deliberately misleading us? -- Galdis 3:47, 15 Jan 2012
In Skyrim, Sheogorath has a line like "It's a family title, passed down from me to myself in every thousand years." If this Sheogorath is the Champion of Oblivion, he would not have said something like this noting him living for so long. And Sheogorath knows Pelagius III so well to call him a friend. Pelagius' lifespan was from 3E119 to 3E153. His death was 280 years before the Oblivion Crisis. The Champion of Oblivion should not have known him, except if he was a mer that lives so 900 years. And Sheogorath is definitely not an elf, or ascended from an elf by his looks. --Joshua.yathin.yu 06:40, 16 January 2012 (UTC)


() --Does the CoC becoming Sheogorath really shatter the Wheel and The Tower? Correct me if I'm wrong (My understanding of CHIM is a bit rusty) but I was under the impression that The Wheel and The Tower was connected to CHIM and The Psijic endeavour, namely, mortals transcending the God's that created them. As I understand it, in one of Vivec's Sermon's involves him beating up on Azura via that fact.... something along the lines of...

"Vivec: "Rude spirit, you should never have come. Not here. Not to the world of the liars, where your power is fleshed to law, bound by the bones of the compromise. Shallow changer, whorescamp, say you that you rule dusk and dawn? Let me show you the power of the true Dawn, when Gods walked."

Azura: "WHAT? WHAT ARE YOU DOING? WHAT IS THAT I FEEL?"

Vivec: "I am the Thief of this World, with stars, and by my Charges I put you down."

A shadow leaves Vivec, snapping off him to wrap around the Daedric Prince, cracking the air as it stiffens.

Vivec: "With my Charges I put you down. By this Shadow, I call your neonymic forth, your chosen throne, sundown and sunrise, death and birth of shadow. You are bound to this place."

Azura: "WHAT NO DEVIL PLEASE NO NO NO"

Vivec: "How does it feel, Lord Azura? To so fully manifest here is the Mundus, stripped down only to your name? Perhaps it feels a bit like my sister did, when your machinations split her, name from land, nymic eth maliache velot, thoughtless save for domain. AE ALTADOON DUNMERI for my sister's madness I eat you."

In essence, what I am trying to say here is that the CoC never really enter the Tower because, as I understand it, the Deadra are not in the Tower, but are in the Wheel. So the CoC taking on the mantle of Sheogorath (which I view as occurring due to the fact that the Staff of Sheogorath was tied to Him/Her which slowly allowed the essence of Sheogorath to seep into Him/Her, but that is just what I suppose) does not shatter The Wheel and The Tower.

As for looks, as I understand it the Deadra can appear as whatever they choose to appear as. Thus it isn't so much a "Why come Sheogorath is not an Argonian! My Sheogorath was an Argonian!" as much as it is "Your Argonian is no longer bound to a singular form."

As for the idea of Bethesada having to keep previous games vague.... So you mean we will never see The Dark Brotherhood again? I destroyed The Dark Brotherhood (And I don't imagine Cicero is... how do you say... a great recruiter.). And why did my Nerevarine go to Akavir?! He was a great Merchant of House Hlaalu who was more than content in Vardenfell! And why didn't my Champion of Cyrodill become the Emporer! Ocato in some steward type position? I assure you my Champion of Cyrodill would challenge that, wanting to make himself Emperor. Why is this never mentioned in History?

What I am trying to demonstrate via Reductio ad Absurdum is that while yes, we all have personal lore, at times it is unlikely that Bethesada will follow that and cricizing them for not keeping it vauge enough that it can match your personal lore is unrealistic. Example, there is one Fanfiction Writer for whom Morrowind has Dagoth Ur as a good-ish guy and her character as his consort/Queen of Morrowind (As I understand it, never thoroughly read the thing. Look up "The Archers Tale") I do believe that Morrowind being all exploded/not ruled by Dagoth Ur and his Queen sort of challenges that personal lore.

In essence: Yes we all have our personal lore and yes Bethesada generally keeps it vague to protect that, but they can only do so much. As for the issue of Sheogorath in Skyrim, if it is really such a problem for you, view it like this, Sheogorath is lying through his teeth. He's insane, he's fully capable of believing himself present during that series of events. The way I see it, Sheogorath's very nature (They picked a damn good Deadra to do it with) Protects our personal lore. He is the god of madness! My bet is regardless of the CoC becoming Sheo (which I believe he/she did)Sheogoarth is entirely capable of honestly believing that he was present for the Oblivion Crisis and every single Guild in Oblivion, he is the God of Madness for goodness sake! A talking Grapefruit occupies a corner of his realm! (Oh Skyrim, thank you for choosing to keep the SE Personality)

Post script: I mean, correct me if I am wrong and my Understanding of The Wheel and The Tower is off, but I thought the concept was as follows (Entering the Tower)

Realizing that one is everything and everything is nothing (You have entered the tower) but to inhabit the Tower and Survive one has to maintain ones individuality (The Tower is I) whilst understanding and accepting that I is everything and nothing. I do not believe that Deadra exist within this state because, as I understand it, it brings nigh unlimited power but the lack of desire to use it because one acknowledges that one is everything and nothing (but is still capable of being an Individual, believing that I am.) This does not sound like the Deadra to me. Maybe Hermaus Mora brushes the tower, but I think that is simply because he brushes all knowledge. Dagon, for instance, does not really fit in the tower.

I had always thought of Deadra (and Aedra) as the embodiment of ideas, based around change and stasis, and quite firmly established within The Wheel, one might even argue they are an essential part of The Wheel as, again unless I am wrong, the Eight Divines are the eight Spokes of the Wheel (Talos/Lorkharn as the center, the center is Mundus as well? ES Lore is strange when you go this deep.) and the Deadra are the Sixteen empty spaces between the Spokes. As such, I don't see how a the CoC becoming Sheogorath, that is to say a being from the centre moving to occupy an empty space (or more to be the empty space) shatters the idea of The Wheel and The Tower as the whole situation never touches The Tower. It all occurs quite definately in the Wheel unless we assume that the Deadra occupy the Tower, which seems to contradict the fact that they are a part of The Wheel. — Unsigned comment by 24.52.248.137 (talk) at 01:51 on February 10, 2012

Everyone needs to remember all main quests must be finished for the next game, look at knights of the nine.Br3admax 02:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
In my opinion, the current page properly states all relevant, available, in-game information as it has been presented to us on this particular matter. I think anything more would be speculation, anything less would be inaccurate and a disservice to the reader, and that this conversation has served to demonstrate that further discussion is best left for the forums, not the talk page. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 03:20, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Revamp help, plz[edit]

I'm not quite done yet, but I think I've hit all the major points in my revamp, and I'd like to get some feedback before I substantially revise a Featured Article. It can currently be found here.

1. The quotes: too much, I assume? I thought they might liven up a long page and at the same time give the reader a better understanding of the particularly colorful subject, but historically, people have disliked a deluge of quotes.

2. Assuming that all people are willing to tolerate is an intro quote, are we okay with it being from game dialogue? I think it's a good intro in that it gives a lot of insight on the subject, but it's not very "lore-ish", and I'm sure I could find an adequate substitute in the writings if using a game dialogue intro for a lore page intro strikes people the wrong way.

3. As noted in a vn tag on the page, I'm not sure what lore details are available regarding the Pilgrimages of the Four Corners sub-questline in Morrowind. When the deal between Sheo and Vivec took place, exactly what protection it afforded, what precisely was protected, how frequently the pilgrimages must be performed, etc. If anyone knows of an easy way to track down all relevant dialogue from the quests, it'd be much appreciated (and would benefit at least two other lore pages, as well). I'd do it myself the old fashioned way, but I don't have a copy of Morrowind anymore.

4. I have changed and added to a lot of the text, including the controversial statements regarding the Champion of Cyrodiil. I believe I've found a good balance in the language that should piss less people off in the future, but I don't want to make changes on this in particular without some consensus.

5. I tried to keep all the political/historical minutia from The Shivering Isles to a minimum. I figured it can be covered better on the Shivering Isles lore page (it looks like it already has, though there are no cites). Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 01:58, 12 January 2014 (GMT)

It all looks good. I think a little lighter on quotes at the top of sections. Perhaps for important sections where the quote is relevant, but there are so many quotes that it's too busy, IMO. Also, you're not substantially revising a Featured Article at all, I don't think. I found the nominations for both the lore and Shivering Isles versions of the pages, and they were opposed and suspended, respectively. So, you're clear on that front :p -damon  xoxo 02:13, 12 January 2014 (GMT)
Oh, I guess I should've noticed that sooner. Bit of a miscommunication between Silencer and I in IRC. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 02:17, 12 January 2014 (GMT)
(edit conflict × 2) Looks good. I think the quotes are fine, livens up the page. One thing I will say, I think we should have the artifact images removed from the Daedric Prince articles. This was discussed before and no consensus was reached, but now that we have the artifacts section set up I think the Prince galleries are a bit in excess. Maybe an image of one artifact would do? —Legoless (talk) 02:19, 12 January 2014 (GMT)
At this point, I'm planning to try and scatter a few images across the page. I can use one or two artifacts images while I'm doing that and discard the rest. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 02:29, 12 January 2014 (GMT)
I personally like the quotes, although I do have a particular affection for flavor quotes used well. As for using game dialogue, I see no objection towards it, since it's held as valid for a reference in Lore and is therefore relevant. Plus, I've done it before with no objections. I do agree with using a few artifact images to liven up the bare listing of them and getting rid of the remainder, since they're used already on the relevant artifact page. -- Hargrimm(T) 02:43, 12 January 2014 (GMT)

() Got rid of some quotes, kept others. Hopefully it's a good balance, but I'm amenable to further subtractions/replacements. After scattering images and getting rid of the extra artifact images, all that was left in the gallery was the Daggerfall gif, so that's why I decided to pack it a bit. As always, edit mercilessly. Minor EditsThreatsEvidence 03:53, 12 January 2014 (GMT)

Commented out Greymarch comments, plus thoughts on a rewording of the body of text[edit]

In the Greymarch section of the article, we have two instances of commented out lines stating:

<!--THIS IS A SETTLED POINT ON THE UESP. We understand you may disagree, but if so, you are in a small minority of contributors, and alternative theories are best left to the forums unless and until more information becomes available.-->

I don't recall after glancing at the edit history any attempts to alter those contents, referenced. While I don't know how those have been influenced by the commented lines, regardless, commented out or not I don't feel like they are particularly encyclopaedic or necessary, and if nobody objects to it, I'd like to trial deleting them from the article.

And, while we're at it, I feel like that section could be worded better, because my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) it's ambiguous whether or not the player is Sheogorath or not, and this article implies that he's Sheogorath only in title even after breaking the curse of Jyggalag and allowing the former to reamin only as Jyggalag, but not actually Sheogorath. Then turns around and says that Sheogorath still exists and wanders the lands. I feel like this is clumsily worded, and while I don't have an immediately available remedy, I feel like there has to be a way to reword that to allow a certain level of ambiguity while not being also contradictory like I get from my impression of the article.

Addendum: That clumsy wording I was complaining about was actually from the user I was reverting earlier and I just missed it. I'm removing it since I didn't like the rest of the edits he made and it should have fallen under that revert. The fact that edits were being made about that content in spite of those messages being there admittedly doesn't help me sell deleting them, though I still am not completely fond of their existence and am curious other people's opinions. -damon  talkcontribs 03:21, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

The advisories are clumsily worded and should have stopped after the capitalized part, as the rest can appear belittling to someone who has come to a different conclusion than the majority, which given the lack of explicit confirmation is not that hard to do as evidenced above. Nevertheless they are gone as of now and hopefully should not need to return. The settled point is that the COC is Sheogorath. And if anything else it is that the COC is a Deadric Prince. What the paragraph is saying is that there are now two Princes, Sheogorath the former COC, and Jyggalag released from his imprisonment as Sheogorath. The last line is basically the summation of his appearance in Skyrim, nothing to do with the previous disputed part. The page lacks depth on his events in Skyrim and ESO. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:13, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation[edit]

I just noticed that the voice actor in TESIII pronounces the Madgod's name "SHAY-gor-uth", while in later games (if I recall correctly) it is pronounced "shay-o-GORE-ath". Is this worth noting somewhere? --Xyzzy Talk 22:21, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Champion of Cyrodil becoming Sheogorath[edit]

So this is something that has always confused me, and maybe there is a bit of lore i havent found that explains it. but when the CoC takes up the mantle of Sheogorath does he actually go from being a mortal to becoming a daedra? i understand he now rules it and based on skyrim he at least will live for a long time, but has be actually become deadra?65.130.38.44 05:15, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

We don't know those specifics. The ESO Haskill interview suggests that the CoC will become a Vestige after the next Greymarch, and Vestiges are Daedra. It therefore seems likely that the CoC does become a Daedra after mantling, but that's speculation. —Legoless (talk) 13:28, 3 July 2017 (UTC)