Lore talk:Necromancer's Moon

Orbit Question

I previously edited the page to remove the bit about the Moon orbiting Nirn since I couldn't find any source for it orbiting any specific celestial body, let alone Nirn. It got added back but I still don't see a reference to it in any of the sources. Mindtrait0r (talk) 03:04, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Well its believed or at least there is lore about the Universe or the way things work as being partially geocentric, meaning things tend to orbit around Nirn instead of the sun apparently. Now I directly think this info should be removed, Legoless should have not reverted your edit because, we don't know the facts of what this body actually orbits unless their is a direct source to merit it. There should be a valid sourcing put into place. I agree with you on that one. For now, I added in a citation needed, and what is needed for that source similar to the one we got on Arkay's lore page when it comes to this very moon.TheVampKnight (talk) 05:57, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

As I explained in my edit summary, everything in the Mundus orbits Nirn. It is therefore not speculation to claim that the Necromancer's Moon does so as well. In fact, its very definition as a "moon" confirms that it is a satellite. Some have speculated that it orbits the planet Arkay as well, which would explain the eight-day cycle of eclipses, but this is speculation and I purposefully neglected to mention that in the article. However, we know the planet Arkay also orbits Nirn, so it's a moot point.

Regarding citation, I have replaced the tag with a reference to this image. We know from the Orrery DLC mesh files that the central body here is Nirn, and in-universe we know that this same orrery is what Bothiel and Falcar use to track the passage of the Necromancer's Moon through the sky. If anyone has a better citation confirming Nirn's position as the centre of the Mundus, please feel free to add it. The only other source I know of is this unofficial text. —⁠Legoless (talk) 13:25, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

The stem of my confusion comes from a lack of knowledge in the exact definition of orbit. I've always thought that our moon doesn't orbit the sun, it orbits the Earth, which orbits the sun. I've found an article that cites the University of Singapore which seems to support this. Following this definition, the Necromancer's Moon may not orbit Nirn if it indeed orbits Arkay. Mindtrait0r (talk) 14:19, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

That seems to be a niche understanding of the term "orbit". I can find [1] [2] [3] [4] multiple sources that disagree with that definition and state that the Moon does orbit the Sun. The current wording on the page doesn't contradict the possibility that the Necromancer's Moon orbits Arkay, but ultimately we have nothing concrete to confirm that aside from Occam's razor. Perhaps it orbits around Nirn extremely quickly instead? —⁠Legoless (talk) 16:49, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

The reference used does not suffice to show that the Necromancer's Moon is in orbit. It could very well move with intent, along some magic path, or something else entirely. It is true that it's a fair assumption to make that it's in orbit, so remove the unearned claim so that the reader may make that assumption themself if they so choose. -Dcsg (talk) 17:55, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

It isn't an assumption, if it didn't orbit anything it wouldn't be a moon, plain and simple. Mindtrait0r (talk) 18:26, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

We can't apply real-world logic like that. In TES, ebony is a crystal, stars are holes, the solar system is geocentric. Beyond that, language is tricky and people use what words they know. Scientifically, the word "moon" as a category has little meaning. There is one moon, the moon, which is a natural satellite of Earth. And yet, we call other natural satellites "moons" of other planets because it's a word people know. Thankfully, we sidestep that problem with our lorespace guideline of perspective. If they call it a moon, we call it a moon. That doesn't mean that we can also inherit properties from the real-world as objective fact for TES. -Dcsg (talk) 18:38, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

We know that it definitely moves across the firmament, because otherwise Falcar would not have needed to use the orrery to track it. Per Bothiel: ""Revenant, you say? And it represents something in the Heavens? [...] With the Orrery in such a state of disrepair, I have no point of reference." This would naturally lead to the conclusion that "moon" is used in the literal sense in this context, i.e. a heavenly body that acts as Nirn's other satellites do. It's also not the only moon of Nirn; Masser, Secunda/Bloodmoon, Lorkhaj, Dark Aeon, the moonlet of Baar Dau all come to mind. What proposed wording would be more accurate than the current opening line? —⁠Legoless (talk) 19:13, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

(←) That quote does not imply that an orrery is used to track it. If anything, it implies that it wouldn't be found in an orrery, as the orrery is just for reference. My proposition is to not try to include the word "orbit" at all. For instance: "The Necromancer's Moon, also known as the Revenant, is a moon and the divine body of the God of Worms, Mannimarco." -Dcsg (talk) 19:59, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I think saying it Orbits Nirn, in this case actually falls under Original research and bends/breaks that rule. Because nothing is known about it enough to warrant that inclusion. The Orrery, shows Geocentrictism yes. But we don't know for the full extent of how that works, with other bodies that would likely orbit those planets like moons since these Orrerys tend to not have those added into their models just the planets themselves.

We know Geocentricism is thing because they are the attending planets of Nirn, that are part of the Great Wheel, and govern the laws of Nirn. We do know the Necromancers Moon Eclispes Arkay every seven/eight days. But how it works isn't mentioned. So saying how it orbits doesn't really matter, its not vital information unless there is an actual source backing it. The only info that matters here is that it eclipses Arkay and I would personally prefer it saying eclipsing Arkay instead of saying it orbits Nirn, When there is no info or creditable source to back it up outside of the Orrery in Oblivion.TheVampKnight (talk) 20:21, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

A more neutral rewrite sounds fine to me. —⁠Legoless (talk) 21:25, 22 January 2023 (UTC)