Lore talk:Jagar Tharn

Oblivion: Loading screen

Hi, in Oblivion, it says "No-one has escaped the imperial prison since the days of Jagar Tharn and the Imperial Sacrelumn (Spelling?)" Does this refer to the player from arena? -Jetty89.240.114.185 14:34, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

Yup. 24.31.156.165 15:45, 22 October 2008 (EDT)

Imperial?

The article states that he's an Imperial, but according to The Real Barenziah, he's a mix of various elf races. Where does it say he's an Imperial? Not to mention that as of Arena's time, there were no Imperials... 66.63.86.156 13:01, 7 January 2009 (EST)

Just fixed it. He was The Imperial Battlemage (like Occato)n not an Imperial battlemage.Temple-Zero 13:16, 7 January 2009 (EST)

I don't think you can say there weren't any Imperials. Just because you couldn't play one in Arena doesn't mean the race didn't exist. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 04:25, 8 January 2009 (EST)

There was no mention of Imperials anywhere in Arena or Daggerfall. They were abruptly added in Morrowind, before that they were just Nords in the Heartlands. But that's not the point. 66.63.86.156 19:41, 8 January 2009 (EST)

By the time of Redguard, there were many references to the Cyro-Nordics and the Cyrodils, along with enough lore to make imagining Cyrodiil full of Nords and Nord-Bretons rather difficult. Come Oblivion, they may as well go back to being civilized Nords though.Temple-Zero 19:47, 8 January 2009 (EST)

Is Jagar Tharn Dead???

I have just noticed this but at any point did Jagar Tharn actually die or was he just defeated in arena? — Unsigned comment by 216.232.227.12 (talk) at 09:25 on 14 December 2012

This seems to be the relevant quest. Doesn't have much to say other than the Tharn cannot be killed during the quest, only incapacitated. Maybe he dies in a cutscene? Any arena players in the house know if Tharn's alive? Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 09:37, 14 December 2012 (GMT)

Tharn dissolved when his life essence was removed from the Jewel of Fire by the Staff of Chaos. He's definitely dead, but the entire process doesn't fit very well into modern lore. —Legoless (talk) 17:23, 14 December 2012 (GMT)

Who was the Nightingale?

I've come to ask my self this after finding two pieces of semi-contradicting material from two separate sources on the wiki. The Barenziah lore page claims that while the Nightingale is commonly believed to be Jagar Tharn, he was truly Drayven Indoril, a master thief whom he employed to steal the Staff of Chaos. Under the Jagar Tharn lore page, it states that he is generally assumed to have been the Nightingale (in the time until their journey to the Staff), but says nothing of the next part and seems to avoid the matter of whom recovered the Staff, simply implying he made it possible for the Staff to be acquired. I believe it is a bit vague on this accounting, but am uncertain of what should be done. I'm afraid to leave this matter in someone else's hands, but I think it is for the best. Thank you. — Unsigned comment by RedBlacksmith (talk • contribs) at 06:27 on 31 December 2013 (GMT)

Since there is in-game reference indicating he was not the bard Nightingale and no reference (that I could find) indicating that he was, I went ahead and changed Jagar Tharn's page to reflect the contents of the book, The Nightingales Vol. 2 by Gallus Desidenius — Volume 2 of the books that describe the Nightingales. Feel free to change my wording as you see fit.—Brzlnboi (talk) 10:22, 14 January 2013 (EST)

There are two books(The Real Barenziah,Biography of Queen Barenziah)+ another that states Tharn was a thief(Mystery of Talara, v 4) that are statng that he was the Nightingale .With the Nightingale book being filled with contradcition from previous lore,Karliah mother could just as well bean a prostitute trying to get more customers with a story.Especially since the child between Barenziah and Tharn was only received years after the thievery....and the child born after the thievery was Helseth so that doesn't add up.So while I agree with adding it as a possibilty,I think it is wrong to add it as fact.--47.64.162.47 02:34, 4 January 2015 (GMT)

Revamp

I'm pretty much done with my revamp, and I thought I should give people a window for comments before posting it, in case there were any concerns.

I don't usually edit with an agenda, but since I did this time, let me make it explicit here: I think there's a good argument to be made (retroactively) that Jagar Tharn was trying to do the right thing in the wrong way. That, in the world which we've come to know in subsequent games, Jagar may not have been the cut-and-dry bad guy we thought he was in Arena. I elaborate more on this here.

But disregarding the exact nature of his reasons, there's still reason to believe that he's more than what he seems based on principle alone. Just read the "Designer's Note" in the Arena game manual: "In The Elder Scrolls there is no absolute right or wrong. We have always held that the idea of “good vs. evil” is a bit cliché, however effective it may befor running a story. Things in the real world are rarely black and white." Reading that, part of me suspects that they have been intentionally rehabilitating Tharn since Arena, bit by bit.

Regardless, the page just doesn't go out of its way to throw Jagar under the bus, that's all. It's not omitting relevant facts (to my knowledge), it's just viewing the subject dispassionately, which is what we're supposed to do.

Also, I would like to add in the note regarding the Mystery of Talara that it is unlikely it is giving an historically accurate account. I don't think this is outright said anywhere, but it seems like an in-game dime-store mystery novel. It mentions a bunch of stuff that isn't corroborated anywhere else. I think it's likely a work of fiction, which is why I summarized it in a note for the time being. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 02:29, 25 February 2015 (GMT)

Cleanup

Is the article ready to have its cleanup notice removed, or does the article still need more work? Savirien-Chorak (talk) 06:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Here's the diff comparing the current article to when the cleanup tag was first added last year. —⁠Legoless (talk) 09:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I have been working on upgrading this page in the background. For now the tag is still valid. --TheRockWithAMedicineCupOnHisHead (talk) 23:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I already rewrote the page. I just wanted to see if my rewrite of the page addressed the concerns of the cleanup notice. TheRockWithAMedicineCupOnHisHead, how long is your upgrading of the page going to take? It looks like you haven't done anything major to the page in nearly six months. Savirien-Chorak (talk) 20:03, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

My apologies, I didn't look at the edit history. I'll check out your rewrite in the upcoming week and see if the tag should be removed.

As to the page upgrade, I was doing a very thorough deep dive into the Imperial Simulacrum and Jagar Tharn for the wiki in a google doc (rather than a user sandbox), which has taken some time to compile given all the various sources. It'll be done when it's done, but maybe your efforts have dissipated the need for that --TheRockWithAMedicineCupOnHisHead (talk) 20:19, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for not getting back to this. Having a life and being a wikier is hard. I'm still spotting some errors to clean up. I also noticed some of the stuff on his allegiances I added before was condensed to the Notes section for some reason I disagree with. Some of the very specific language I was using was altered too, probably for clarity, but I preferred the accursary that was there before. I'll brush up what I can when I can later.

Putting aside my petty and pedantic grievances, awesome awesome work on this! Great job dawg. TheRockWithAMedicineCupOnHisHead (talk) 11:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)