Lore talk:Dremora

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Sanguine[edit]

In regards to Sanguine ``pranking" the Dragonborn, after the encounter and gifting of his Sanguine Rose Staff, he later shows up in a Vampire lair shouting about ``No one makes a fool of me!" and proceeds to kill all the inhabitants. He effectively completed a Dawnguard quest for me, while I simply danced around watched the battle. Just thought I would mention it here. It not only was a surprise, as I was about to attack the Dremora before I noticed he didn't register as an actively engaged enemy on my HUD and recognized his name, but amused at his dialog while he obliterated Master Vampires and Arch Necromages. If you have a Staff of Reanimation equipped and "unsheathed", he comments on the spell associated with it after the battle is over; though he just stands around and does not have any dialog options. He would have made a great follower, but I don't think that is in their nature. — Unsigned comment by 67.177.185.151 (talk) at 23:44 on 24 January 2013

This isn't the right place for this - try Skyrim talk:Sanguine. —Legoless (talk) 00:02, 25 January 2013 (GMT)

Ranks of Dremora?[edit]

Anyone know all ranks of Dremora social? — Unsigned comment by 115.72.108.204 (talk) at 12:39 on 19 July 2014

Online Information Needed?[edit]

Dremora appear quite frequently in TES online, and new information needs adding to the lore page. For example, Dremora have been seen serving Molag Bal for the first time, and female Dremroa warriors are far more common than they were during the Oblivion Crisis.— Unsigned comment by 76.177.238.188 (talk) at 19:04 on 8 August 2014

Female Dremora common in TES online, section about their rarity should be revised.[edit]

There are many Female Dremora, of various ranks and classes, found in TES online. I think that the section about their society being male dominated should be removed, or at least edited to say that it was not male dominated during the second era. — Unsigned comment by 76.177.238.188 (talk) at 23:55 on 21 August 2014 (GMT)

I just tried to edit it accordingly, but then it was reverted because something else I added in the same edit was considered "speculation". Bauglir100 (talk) 22:11, 13 December 2014 (GMT)
There's no reason to assume that the society wasn't male-dominated in the Second Era, or even a reason to mention eras at all based solely on game appearances. The part about females being rare should probably be amended though. —Legoless (talk) 22:25, 13 December 2014 (GMT)
Well, if there was a book or document stating how the male-to-female ratio among the Dremora race changed over time, or discussed exactly what purpose female Dremora served among the Kyn, then I'd gladly add its content to this page as well. Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any such in-game books referencing female Dremora, so all we have to work with are their in-game appearances (Oblivion and Online). Until something like what I described comes up in a later installment/DLC, we'll just have to work with what we have. But of course, nothing states that the Dremora weren't still male-dominated during the events of Online. Bauglir100 (talk) 10:08, 15 December 2014 (GMT)

Association with other Daedric Princes needs expanding...[edit]

It's listed in the "Notes" section, but I think we ought to leave some examples of who these other Daedric Princes are for the sake of avoiding confusion. In fact, allow me to list some examples here as evidence for why they should be mentioned.

Sanguine: Sanguine assumed the form of one when he revealed his true self to the Dragonborn in Misty Grove. Also his artifact, the Sanguine Rose, can be used to summon Dremora in Skyrim.

Molag Bal: At least two clans of Dremora are in the service of him, as shown in Online (and are even listed as such on the page).

Peryite: Dremora are among the Daedra encountered in Peryite's realm during his related quest in Oblivion.

Sheogorath: Okay, I know this is one heck of a stretch. But the Hero of Kvatch (who became the new incarnation of Sheogorath after defeating Jyggalag) did earn the respect of many Dremora after destroying the Sigil Tower that was used to open the portal to Kvatch and defeating the Dremora guarding it, as mentioned in Oblivion by Kathutet. Plus, the Hero has been known to summon Dremora through various methods, such as summoning spells and by drinking Daedric Lava Whiskey. And there's the fact that the Wabbajack in Skyrim sometimes turns its targets into Dremora (sure, it's just one of the Wabbajack's many random effects, but still). So one could say that Dremora are associated with Sheogorath, even if it's only by a string of technicalities. Bauglir100 (talk) 21:21, 16 December 2014 (GMT)

On that note, do we have a source for them primarily being followers of Dagon, or was that extrapolation based on their appearances in previous games? Molag Bal could conceivably lead a similar number considering how many are encountered in ESO. Regarding Sheogorath, I wouldn't associate Dremora with him as none appear in the Shivering Isles. --Enodoc (talk) 10:06, 17 December 2014 (GMT)
Molag Bal's clans are already listed, and the article as a whole still needs to be updated with ESO info. Aside from Sanguine's avatar, all of the other examples are minor and not worth noting. We see Dremora in the service of Boethiah and Hermaeous Mora as well, so there's nothing particularly special about it. This article is supposed to be broad; listing every single instance of a Dremora having a relationship with a Prince is just as constructive as listing the various political allegiances of random Altmer on their race's article. Finally, the point about Sheogorath isn't only a stretch, it's also a nonsensical conclusion to come to.
@Enodoc: I can't think of the name of the book, but there's definitely a primary source on the Dremora's (current) allegiance to Dagon. —Legoless (talk) 15:20, 17 December 2014 (GMT)
Fair enough. I had a look around and found four books mentioning it: Varieties of Daedra, The Pilgrim's Path, Darkest Darkness, and Spirit of the Daedra all mention Dremora as servants of Dagon. Notably on this line however, Spirit of the Daedra says: Dremora have long served Dagon but not always so. --Enodoc (talk) 17:43, 17 December 2014 (GMT)
Yep, that was the quote I was thinking of. —Legoless (talk) 19:22, 17 December 2014 (GMT)
"Nonsensical conclusion"? Heh. How ironic, considering this is the Prince of Madness we're talking about. Anyway, what's wrong with listing specific examples? You delete things just because there aren't enough examples listed? I'm pretty sure that what you're supposed to do list more examples, then. We're a Wiki, it's what we're supposed to do. It's not like I'm suggesting we list every individual character in the series that's ever summoned a Dremora on the Lore article, just mention the Daedric Princes they're associated with. I mean, they aren't associated with Namira, Meridia, Jyggalag, Hircine, etc., so it should be fair game to cite at least a couple of examples of the ones that they are associated with besides Mehrunes Dagon. Bauglir100 (talk) 19:41, 17 December 2014 (GMT)
If I may jump in here, the Dremora did appear in the Shivering Isles, in the quest in Cheesemonger's Hollow in ESO, but they were later replaced with Dark Seducers in one of the updates. I think that change was done for a reason. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 20:25, 17 December 2014 (GMT)

Removed Game-Specific Content[edit]

I've removed a large chunk of text from this page for being game-specific and far beyond acceptable levels of original research. I believe this content goes against the in-universe style of lorespace.

To address the major change, I've removed the discussion on female Dremora in its entirety. The speculated "rarity" of females has been thoroughly retconned in ESO. This article still needs updating with the new ESO info, but the original note on this topic was already removed, so I don't see a point in keeping the outdated info around. The article also talked about the "attempts to extract information" from females yielding no responses, which is clear fanfiction/headcanon to explain away their lack of voice files in Oblivion and doesn't belong in lore.

Secondly, I've removed the recent addition of a paragraph discussing the Dremora's relationship with the Mazken and Aureal. Much of this is based upon a forum discussion, which should set off warning bells. Not only does this addition give special significance to the Mazken and Aureal over every other race of Daedra that we've ever seen anywhere near a Dremora, it is also filled with speculative statements calling the Dremora an "inverse" of the two due to the female ratios and claiming that Dremora "co-exist" with Golden Saints due to both appearing as enemies in Morrowind. All of this is game-specific. I've also removed a line about Dremora Clan's attitude towards Seducers, which is far better suited to the individual articles rather than a race page.

Using game mechanics as a basis for lore is a common problem in lore articles, especially with such easily-accessible topics as these three (unrelated!) Daedric species. However, it's a disservice to the broader lore to make these kind of speculations. —Legoless (talk) 14:27, 14 March 2015 (GMT)

Look, it's not that I believe specific details should be based on what was seen in the games, but what else is there to work off of? No offense, but I think you're taking the "Lore" template a little too literally. In fact, the template used to be called "Tamriel" before someone pointed out that there was more to the TES universe than what was found in Tamriel, so they changed it to Lore to make it a more general-sounding name. Well, I'm starting to think they ought to re-name the Template again if the name's leading people to think that only stuff that shows up in more than one game should be included. Well, a lot of the books in the series have only been used in one game at all, so you'd might as well get rid of all the stuff on the Aureal/Mazken articles mentioned in "Saints and Seducers", since that book was only featured in Oblivion's SI expansion. Bauglir100 (talk) 19:37, 14 March 2015 (GMT)
The lore namespace has changed a lot since the Tamriel era, and I'd encourage you to read the namespace's new policies. Lore articles don't exclude content that appears in only a single game. By "game-specific" I mean breaking the fourth wall and inferring in-universe fact from the mechanics of a video game. If something isn't backed up by a book or by dialogue, its relevance to lore should always be questioned. If there's nothing else to work off other than guesswork, then it should be left unsaid (see the original research section). —Legoless (talk) 19:49, 14 March 2015 (GMT)
I can understand if the paragraph was "In Oblivion, blah blah blah..." or "at some point between Battlespire and Morrowind..." or if the gameplay mechanics brought into question were actually bugs/glitches that weren't meant to be in the game, but removing something featured in a game from a Lore article just because it's not explained in dialogue or whatever just seems unfair. I mean, the Reavers in Bloodmoon don't even get a passing mention, and the Marauders and Argonian Tribesmen in Oblivion are a similar deal, yet they still show up anyway. But does that mean one can simply omit any mention made to them on a Lore article just because nobody talked or wrote about them in the entire series? Here's a way to separate fact from speculation, and from content that breaks the fourth wall.
Breaking the Fourth Wall: "In TES IV: Oblivion, groups of hostile armed men called Marauders were present in Cyrodiil. They spawn inside caves and ruins, and have a low disposition towards bandits."
Lore-friendly information: "During the time of the Oblivion Crisis, groups of hostile armed men called Marauders were present in Cyrodiil. They have been seen fighting against bandits in caves and ruins."
Lore-friendly information, with speculation: "During the time of the Oblivion Crisis, groups of hostile armed men call Marauders, which were possibly mercenaries or members of a renegade faction, were present in Cyrodiil. They have been seen fighting against bandits in caves and ruins, presumably over territory or loot."
See what I'm getting at? Bauglir100 (talk) 20:07, 14 March 2015 (GMT)
That second example might be a lore-friendly description, but that doesn't make it noteworthy. The only reason marauders would get even a passing mention would be in the context of something relevant, e.g. Lore:Sercen. Additionally, putting time constraints on something like that isn't a realistic assumption to make. Why were people marauding in Cyrodiil only during that specific year? "Between the Imperial Simulacrum and 3E 427" is the same as saying "between Battlespire and Morrowind". Perhaps that's not a strict breaking of the fourth wall, but it's conforming to a view that simply isn't in-universe.
To bring it back to the topic at hand: if you wanna talk about, say, the cave of Ibar-Dad, and the fact that it contains Saints and Dremora, then that's fine. Making sweeping statements about their co-existence in the province of Morrowind is unfounded and largely irrelevant. It's entirely different from something like Spirit of the Daedra, where a Dremora gives an account of his people's thoughts on scamps and stuff. —Legoless (talk) 20:29, 14 March 2015 (GMT)
Except would talking about Ibar-Dad be considered notable enough for the article? Bauglir100 (talk) 20:49, 14 March 2015 (GMT)
No, it wouldn't, but if Ibar-Dad had its own lore article, or if it needed to be mentioned on Lore:Elante of Alinor for some reason. —Legoless (talk) 21:12, 14 March 2015 (GMT)
Not to mention that Ibar-Dad is not the only location in Morrowind where Dremora and Golden Saints can be found together, and it's not even related to the Main Quest, so why would I single that one little cave out anyway? And to co-exist doesn't necessarily mean "live in complete harmony like one big, happy family". It can also mean they simply tolerate each other's presence enough to let them stay where they are without a fight, i.e. share territory. How deep this co-existance goes is debatable and unexplored in canon, and thus not worth posting on this article. That I understand. But still, I think that somewhere down the line, someone's going to ask "If the Dremora think they're the top of the Daedric hierarchy, what does that make the Golden Saints and Dark Seducers? Do they even know the other exists?" And so that's where my entries come in, to try and explain this as much as this Wiki will allow me to: "Yes, they do know each other exists, and have even appeared side-by-side on occasion. We just don't know what they actually think of each other, and that won't change unless something new comes up in Lore." Get the picture yet?Bauglir100 (talk) 23:17, 14 March 2015 (GMT)

() I have to agree with legoless in most of the points. First off, what we see in games is only a tiny sliver of daedric "culture", most of it is happening behind closed doors of oblivion. We even cannot be sure to have witnessed all "races" of daedra. Anyway, the dremoras' opinion on other daedra doesn't necessarily have to be evident by their cooperation with them. They serve their daedric maser (whoever that may be), and to achieve his goals, they may temporary work together with other beings they don't like that much. Additionally, especialy in the cases in Morrowind, we do not kow if they were possibly summoned by a skilled mage, which would bind them to that mages will and render their normal views unimportant (see Lore:I was Summoned by a Mortal). As for the Females, I have yet to play ESO, but I think to have read something that there's a greater number of females present. Again, any reason for this is pure speculation. The fact that the only female in Oblivion is mute is clearly some game-mechanic thing. The devs didn't record female voice files for female dremora, but one accidentally slipped into the final game. We also don't know how other daedric species, such as Xivilai, see females, if they have any. -- SarthesArai Talk 11:06, 15 March 2015 (GMT)

Reply moved to User talk:Bauglir100.

Dremora Guarding Tribunal Temple Shrines[edit]

The article makes the following assertion regarding the Tribunal Temple's "employment" of Dremora:

In this regard, they are often "employed" by Tamrielic organizations such as the [[Lore:Tribunal Temple|Tribunal Temple]] to guard their shrines,{{ref|name=MWAnhaedra}}{{ref|[[MW:Krazzt|Krazzt]]'s appearance in the center of [[MW:Vivec Palace|Vivec Palace]]'s Puzzle Canal, and his role during the [[MW:Pilgrimages of the Seven Graces|Pilgrimages of the Seven Graces]] in ''[[MW:Morrowind|Morrowind]]''}}

Looking at the Dremora's roles at each of these shrines doesn't, in my opinion, support the assertion that they are "guarding" the shrines. Rather, they are there to play a part in the reenactment of Vivec's deeds at each of these shrines during a pilgrimage. In Anhaedra's case, the pilgrim taunts the Dremora in a reenactment of Vivec's taunting of Mehrunes Dagon. In Krazzt's case, the pilgrim gives a silver longsword to the Daedra to reenact Vivec's donation of a silver longsword to Mehrunes Dagon during a battle in which the Daedra Lord was unarmed. In both cases the Dremora acts as a stand-in for Mehrunes Dagon and plays a part in fulfilling the requirements of the pilgrimage, but there is no indication that they are there to "guard" the shrine in the usual sense of that word. I believe this sentence should be reworded to reflect the Dremora's actual roles at these shrines, although I can't think of how to do that at the moment. — Wolfborn(Howl) 02:56, 27 January 2021 (UTC)


Dremora Castes/Rankings Updates[edit]

ESO's shed more light on dremora rankings and castes, so I think the relevant information should be updated in the Society section of their page. Here's a posting of my recorded observations typical from interactions I've observed in eso that tend to be rather consistent (am still in the process of making observations so this might update a little here and there).

From the lore we get in TES IV Oblivion, and combining it with some further details we find in ESO, the dremora appear to have castes that focus on various specializations in combat, and these castes can find themselves ascending the ranks. Rank is not specific to caste/class, as far as I can tell. I'm going to attempt to line up a description of the updated castes and where they fit in the rankings of the new lore eso has provided us, in ascending order. Keep in mind that dremora arrange themselves into clans... and so these ranks only have true authority over fellows in the same clan as themselves. A churl of the Foolkillers clan would likely not heed the orders of a Markynaz from the Deathbringers clan, unless it was an order relayed by their chosen prince, etc.

  • Varlet: as established in the book Kyne's challenge, these are the lowest dregs of dremora society. My personal guess is that they are so looked down upon because they lack any sort of martial prowess, or fire for combat. Again, my guess, is that most of the dremora merchants we encounter who are more interested in trading with mortals rather than killing them are likely Varlets.
  • Churl: just above varlet, these seem to be dremora who haven't really distinguished themselves in any sort of way in combat in any noteworthy way, with no specialization of skill or discipline, they're essentially just meat to throw at the grinder. In ESO, typically they're shown to wear a small variety of armor and use one-handed weaponry with no backup weapons or special abilities of any kind.
    • Following Churl, here's where things start to get a little tricky... I believe none of the following castes/classes are more highly ranked than the other, but rather dremora who have distinguished themselves in a combat specialization that has earned them recognition to be uplifted from the status of Churl... from there, it's likely further displays of prowess and cunning that uplift them from their specialization into specific ranks (while they retain their class within the higher ranks)
      • Mage Classes: favoring light armor such as robes and using weaponry like staves, there are three that I've noted. Kyngald are destruction mages, while Narkynaz are necromancers and conjurers. Fearkyn are wielders of illusion and shadow magics.
      • Warrior Classes: these classes favor heavy armor, though the type of weaponry and abilities they possess vary a bit between them. Kynval appear to be the 'tanks' of dremora society; heavily armored and distinguished by their preference for using a shield in battle, they also occasionally make use of melee-oriented destruction spells. Caitiff are similar to the Kynval, but they forego one-handed weaponry and shields in preference for dishing out sheer damage; Caitiff favor the use of large, heavy, and punishing two-handed weaponry like cleavers, mauls, and battleaxes, which they use to pummel opponents into submission.
      • Rogue Classes: among the dremora, these are kyn who seem to have an affinity for more 'scout/skirmisher' type tactics, and thusly most often wear medium, or in some cases, light armor, instead of heavier garb like kynval and caitiff; displaying a higher preference for agility and range of movement. Along with their medium armor preference, they more typically use weaponry like bows or short blades like daggers. There are two classes I've found who fit these descriptions. Harstryl, who appear to be hunters, skirmishers, and scouts for dremora clans; they favor the use of bows and underhanded weaponry they can throw like lightweight beast traps. Harstryl also appear to have an affinity for the lesser daedra such as clannfear, twilights, scamps, and atronachs; all of which they occasionally utilize in combat. This seems to imply that the Harstryl are typically the beast handlers for dremora: capturing/summoning and training bestial daedra for use in warfare like a nord might do to wolves or dogs. The other class that fits the aforementioned armor and weaponry preference would be the Kynlurker. Kynlurkers appear to be far more specialized than the Harstryl, as Kynlurkers are your stereotypical assassin; favoring dual daggers as their weaponry and making use of shadow or illusion spells to conceal themselves and get behind their opponents for deadly critical strikes.
  • From here, I believe that once a dremora distinguishes themselves to earn a specific class and uplift themselves from Churl status, they can begin to ascend the ranks. My guess is that higher ranks, though they all have authority over all lesser ranks, probably function in a way that would give a dremora who came from the previous class more authority over fellows of that former class than they would have over another. For example, the next rank in authority that we know of is the Kynreeve. To quote: "Kynreeves are described as clan 'officers' or 'sheriffs', and are associated with fighting units or administrative offices. They administer rewards and punishments to their warrior charges". Now, if you know anything about how a military operates, someone who is an officer of a special forces unit, like a scouting unit, would not be an officer that holds authority over shock troop units. Officers are chosen due to skill and tactical knowledge prowess they have displayed typically in the unit they belonged to before earning their officer rank. To clarify, any of the previous classes could become a Kynreeve, but that Kynreeve would probably have the most authority over the class he came from... EG: a Caitiff Kynreeve, wise in the ways of the Caitiff, would have the most authority over Caitiff and be tasked to organize and dispense punishment or reward on other Caitiff, and not, say, Harystryl or Kyngald. To equate them to something in Tamrielic society, if the churl and castes/classes above churls are akin to a skyrim hold's guardsman, Kynreeve are basically captains of the guard.
  • Following Kynreeve, we've got the Kynmarchers, which are the lowest class of 'lord', who have stewardship of small citadels and outposts, and ascend from the ranks of Kynreeves. Whatever class/caste the Kynmarcher ascended from (be they harstryl or Caitiff, etc), they likely look to their Kynreeves, their field officers, to wisely direct the lower ranks of dremora for use in battle. Though I'm sure to ascend to this rank, most Kynmarchers likely display a knowledge of tactics and command that show they understand not only their own class, but the other classes and how to use them for their benefit in warfare. They are essentially the officers that officers report to, and are the middle-man between the Kynreeves and the Markynaz. The most distinguishing feature between Kynmarchers and their previous rank of Kynreeve is the fact that, while Kynreeves command specific small units, Kynmarchers have command over the Kynreeves and hold the honor of managing the citadel or outpost they've been assigned, not just the troops within, making them essentially stewards of the next rank's property. To, again, use a tamrielic descriptor to equate them to something we're more familiar with, if churl and the castes/classes they can uplift themselves into are guardsman, and Kynreeves are Captains of the guard, Kynmarchers are essentially Thanes.
  • Following Kynmarchers we've got the Markynaz, who appear to be owners/rulers of various keeps, citadels, and territories, and form a council with one another. With the new rank introduced by ESO that is above Valkynaz, if the Markynaz are to be equated to anything in tamrielic society... I'd say the Markynaz would be equated to the Jarls of Skyrim or Kings of High Rock, who are in turn beneath the authority of their High King, and the High King being beneath the authority of the Tamrielic emperor (when an empire is actually intact, anyway).
  • Valkynaz are the next highest rank in the pecking order, and from older lore, and lore still holding up today, appear to be leaders of their clan, but from the new lore introduced in ESO, NOT the absolute rulers of the clan. Going by the same tamrielic descriptors we went off of to equate the Kynmarchers to something... where Kynmarchers are like the jarls of the clan; holding various territories and having command over lower troops, the Valkynaz are best described as the 'High Kings' of a dremora clan: holding sway over the all the 'jarls' that are the Markynaz in the territory that they govern for the Valkyn. Affording of their 'high kingly' status, it's established that the Valkynaz have the ear of the Prince they serve, and keep in regular contact of said Prince.
  • From ESO we come to a new rank we've been able to note, which is the Valkyn. From what we can ascertain, Valkyn are the absolute rulers of their clan, and rather than the Valkynaz, of which there are multiples for every clan, there is only ONE Valkyn per clan, and they are the undisputed authority of the clan to which they rule. If we continue on our tamrielic descriptors for better understanding, if Markynaz are 'jarls', and Valkynaz are 'High Kings', then Valkyn are the 'Emperor'. Valkyn, as well as being the absolute rulers of their clan, also serve as the personal guard and generals of the prince they serve (noted in the case of Valkyn Skoria). The Valkynaz, in turn, perform a similar role to their Valkyn as their Valkyn does for their prince.
  • NOTES: there are still a few ranks/classes i've not had the chance to properly record... when I stumble across them and i'm able to note consistent details between the individuals encountered, i'll add them to the list... among them are the Feydnaz, When I come across these and am able to log consistent observations, I'll add them to the lineup. — Unsigned comment by 64.254.52.120 (talk) at 20:25 on 25 June 2021

Most of the extraneous names (kyngald, fearkyn) are class names with no particular confirmed meaning. All Dremora Kynmarchers are of ESO's battlemage class, and all classes do is define which abilities an enemy uses. The classes are already defined, but we have no actual information on whether or not the terms denote rank. Kynlurkers are nightblades, Dremora Harstryl are pet rangers in all content except Blackwood's prologue, where they're arbalests. While you're correct in observing the names in ESO are connected to class, I don't think we can't take the rank assumptions as lore. -MolagBallet (talk) 20:55, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
These are just my speculations, but they seem to fit pretty darn well. We know churls are very darn low and don't seem to really have any sort of specialization, just throw-away troops in every sense of the word. Given the vast numbers of various named troops like the Kyngald and Fearkyn, it's just my guess that these are former churls that have chosen a specialization (and thus embraced a form of order and structure for themselves, unlike the far more unruly churls), and thus by choosing that specializing and progressing in that skill, they shed their churl rank and embrace a 'class' archetype, which opens the up to further advancement in the future, such as becoming a Kynreeve once they prove themselves, if ever.
The previous lore rankings of Kynval and Caitiff as ranks are largely based on oblivion's leveling system that made certain enemies more frequent the further you increase in level (when you reach max level in tes IV, you've got Valkynaz all over the place like rabbits in spring), and the book "Varieties of Daedra" where the author outright admits, as mortals, we have little chance to fully understand the various orders of the daedra, and thus his work is subject to scholarly debate... eso displays the kynval and caitiff working directly alongside these other classes such as fearkyn and harstryl as though they are equals, in large groups. They also have consistent themes amidst themselves, with kynval and caitiff almost always wearing heavy armor, and using shields or two handed weaponry respectively, regardless of what coding class they have in the game's programming. To provide an example, Harstryl you encounter in the base game are pet rangers, while ones in blackwood are arbalests, in the game's code, but the consistent theme is that Harstryl are prone to using bows and other ranged weapons, as well as medium armor.
This is partly why i'm proposing that Kynval and Caitiff are not ranks, but class specializations in dremora social structure. Sure, it's speculization, but... you have to admit, it's pretty convincing speculization. That's the thing about Elder Scrolls lore... if it isn't outrightly confirmed, you just have to go with your best guess from what you're seeing with your eyes, of what's the most likely answer. --64.254.52.120 21:55, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Herbivorous[edit]

This was recently added to the page:

"They are the only type of Daedra who are strictly herbivorous, as the concumption of flesh causes them internal distress and pain to the point where comitting suicide in order to reform their bodies and purge themselves is regarded as a viable alternative to the experience."

Which it used Lore:On the True Nature of Daedra as a source. I find that this is a case where we can rule this book as being a poor guide. For example, see Online:Dremora Dialogue for instances of Dremora referring to eating meat with enough regularity to have preferences. ""No Khajiits. Cat-flesh is too gamey.""

"When do we feast upon mortal flesh once more?"

"Elven wine tastes best in the blood of an Elf."

Also Molag Bal announcing for Velehk: "He'll tear you open and eat your heart raw. His eyes gleam red, and his heart will never thaw."

There is also of course the popular Dremora taunt "I will feast on your heart" used by multiple sources, with this book as one example: Online:I was Summoned by a Mortal

Beyond these counter-examples, sticking strictly to On the True Nature of Daedra shows the biggest flaw in its own claim. A herbivore is, using the opening sentence from Wikipedia: "A herbivore is an animal anatomically and physiologically adapted to eating plant material, for example foliage or marine algae, for the main component of its diet."

As the book states, the Dremora do not need to eat anything at all. They aren't herbivorous. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 18:19, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

think we should have a Diet section on the page tbh haha The Rim of the Sky (talk)
Agreed. Do we have any sources on Daedra eating in general? Doubt it's done for sustenance. There is some culinary information on this page, for example this traditional Dremora-made pie which is toxic to mortals. —⁠Legoless (talk) 15:53, 27 May 2022 (UTC)