Lore talk:Calcelmo's Stone

Akamora

So I created this page in order to have the two texts next to each other, mainly because I saw the words "aka" and "Mora" in the Dwemer text (end of first line, start of second), and the phrase "kings of the wood" in the translated Falmer script. It's well known that "Mora" means "Wood" (e.g. Balmora, Sadrith Mora), and "aka" means "dragon", e.g. "Akatosh". "Dragon" and "King" are sometimes used interchangeably, so "akamora" could easily translate to something like "kings of the wood". The Tamriel Rebuilt team placed a city called "Akamora" in mainland Morrowind - I'm not sure if this has any basis in lore though. (The only official map we have of that area is from Arena, and it's very incomplete - only 8 cities are listed.) Don't know if this has any validity, but I figured I'd leave it to the lore-masters to ponder. TheRealLurlock (talk) 05:01, 20 November 2012 (GMT)

Categorization

By now Calcelmo's Stone is categorized under "Lore-All Terms". I suggest to put it under Linguistics section on Appendices page. I already done it, but someone undid my edit on the Calcelmo's Stone page :)

Layout changes was necessary 'cause navigation bar at the left side of page broke current layout.Phoenix Neko (talk) 21:39, 9 April 2013 (GMT)

The problem is that Calcelmo's Stone isn't a language in and of itself, while the rest of the things listed there are. Also, everything should be in the All Terms category. Jeancey (talk) 21:41, 9 April 2013 (GMT)

It's not just the layout, its the classification. Calcelmo's Stone is not a language, it is an item, the same as the Elder Scrolls, Shalidor's Insights, etc. The two languages found on it are Falmer and Dwemer, it's not even a new language. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:43, 9 April 2013 (GMT)

I never said it is, what are you talking about? The Linguistics section bears the name "Linguistics", not the "Languages only". This stone is a very important thing for the linguistics, isn't it? Phoenix Neko (talk) 21:47, 9 April 2013 (GMT)

I was merely saying that everything else listed on the page are actual languages and this is not a language. It probably should be listed somewhere, but we should discuss it first. Jeancey (talk) 21:48, 9 April 2013 (GMT)

Larger half of everything else also are not languages, but alphabets. And Calcelmo's Stone page contains minor original research, similar to most other Appendices pages, such as Demographics. Phoenix Neko (talk) 21:55, 9 April 2013 (GMT)

You added it in the middle of the languages and alphabet section of the appendices, as the only item. You reclassified this page do that same end, breaking with the standard applied to all "items" of significance. If your concern was using it as a reference, there is no need, any documented item can be used as a reference, indeed the stone is already the main source on the Falmer alphabet, and is documented as such on the Falmer Alphabet page. Appendices on the wiki are pages on the languages, not pages used to supplement those pages. And what is the original research? The translation? I wouldn't exactly classify that as OR. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:59, 9 April 2013 (GMT)

You say Calcelmo's Stone is just an "item" like any sword or book? But I think it's a thing very important to Linguistics. Who said Linguistics section is exclusively for alphabets and language, but not for the linguistics itself? Okay, I'd better wait and watch what Legoless would say. Phoenix Neko (talk) 22:09, 9 April 2013 (GMT)

(←) In normal terms, it could be considered in Linguistics, but it is the only thing we have that would. It is an item, that is 100%. We can use it as a reference for many other things, but it is already linked on the Falmer and Dwemer alphabet pages, I don't see how putting it on the sidebar would help anything. Instead it would just be a strange addition that doesn't fit in with everything else. Jeancey (talk) 22:19, 9 April 2013 (GMT)

Falmer/Dwemer comparison

So according to a online word counter the Falmer text has 109 words and the dwemer text only has 93, this should be enough to at least establish that the dwemer used a different form to indicate possession. If anybody has anything else to add feel free to do so. — Unsigned comment by ‎186.206.76.184 (talk) at 00:43 on 27 August 2014

Not necessarily. It could be that the Dwemer have a more precise language, so they require less words to express the same concept. For example, in Arabic, "to stay up late" is expressed as one word, though it's four in english. --AN|L (talk) 01:39, 27 August 2014 (GMT)

The thua/dua prefixes are clearly the Dwemer possessive form. I don't think it's too speculative to include, personally, but it not explicit. 67.161.158.61 22:30, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Current translation

Okay, so I had a look at the current translation of Falmeris, and find it odd and highly speculative. I would like an explanation of how whoever got to said translation got there. Remember that wrong translations can be assumed to be correct and built upon by other people, who will then make wrong conclusions as a result, and unproven speculations should not be committed to the public page, except perhaps with elaborations that they are speculative. So yes, if, I believe its Dinmenel, could please provide an explanation as to why he reckons that translation is correct, that would be very much appreciated. Kamica (talk) 08:51, 17 May 2015 (GMT)

Hello! The current translation is from me (Toesock). I had Dinmenel update the page with the new words from ESO. Your concern is valid and I will post my word-for-word breakdown with sources linked for each. There are a few that I think will be contested, so feel free to argue or edit! The list is ungainly so I'm going to post it as a separate section - I hope posting it doesn't go against the formatting rules, but its important to be transparent about sources and allow them to be debated. 67.161.158.61 22:38, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for this, I'll go through them when I have some more time and give my opinions on them, and potentially add some of my own thoughts. Do note that there is also a page completely dedicated to the Dwemer language: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dwemer_Alphabet Kamica (talk) 23:04, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Sources For The Translation

Kamica brought up a concern that the current translation may be too speculative and requested an explanation. I've posted a list of all the words in the stone and sources for their translation. I've also included some other thoughts and speculations about yet-untranslated words. Sorry about the length, it's sort of unavoidable. Feel free to look at the links and bring up concerns about contested words.

For your convenience, here is a shortlist of the words I consider speculative or semi-speculative:

morae – I admit some spec on this one – in two different Ayleid texts, Mora means daedra, but given the seeming reference to thu’um at the beginning of the sentence, I suspect this refers to “Kings of Atmora” not “Kings of Daedra”.

nu – This is spec: nou means “our”, corresponding to dwemer “dua”. I think it’s reasonable to extrapolate that nu is “we”, corresponding to dwemer “du” (especially given context and word order), however I will leave this to the discretion of others.

hecta – exile http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Loading_Screens. It’s unclear if hecta means exile or home. Given its similarity to Heca (be gone) I went with exiles, though home would also be interesting and completely turn this sentence on its head!

cullei – foods or stones http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Remnant_of_Light

gethena – whoops I have that as get heng, I will fix!

And here is the rest of the words. Feel free to contest whatever you like!

ye – and http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ayleid_Reference_Text

sa – so http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ayleid_Reference_Text

sou – your http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ayleid_Reference_Text

meldi – driven ones, exiles http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ayleid_Reference_Text the dwemer side of the stone uses “your mer”, so this is obviously referring to people.

calne

tarn – portal http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nilata_Search_Plan

va – in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nilata_Search_Plan

nou – our http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nilata_Search_Plan

molag – fire http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Vahtacen%27s_Secret

nen – water http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Bisnensel:_Our_Ancient_Roots

seli – halls http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Umaril_the_Unfeathered_(person)

trumbi

bala – power http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Umaril_the_Unfeathered_(person)

ilpen

av – of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ayleid_Reference_Text

nagaiale – some verb form of “to die” http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Vahtacen%27s_Secret

as – by http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Umaril_the_Unfeathered_(person)

guntumnia

spantel

epe – speak http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Loriasel_Tablet_Notes

laelia – throat http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Laeloria

arani - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Secrets_of_the_Ayleids

liebali

racuvane – cast down http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Umaril_the_Unfeathered_(person)

rautane

sye

hautalle

buroi – vassal http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Secrets_of_the_Ayleids

gume

gravuloi

metane

garlis – caverns http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ayleid_Reference_Text

frey

gandra – gifts http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ayleid_Reference_Text

dwemera – Dwemer of course

tarcel

lane

agea – wisdom http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ayleid_Reference_Text OR lore http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nilata_Search_Plan

emeratis – music http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nilata_Search_Plan

avatheledia

carelle

anyamissi – lives http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ayleid_Reference_Text

bisia – new http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Bisnensel:_Our_Ancient_Roots

silya – unknown, possibly related to “sila” i.e. shines, or “silyanorn” i.e. acorn

arcten – I didn’t translate this, but it is probably a form of “arctane” (accept) or “arctavoy” acknowledge

rias

nemalauta

ge – unknown, also present in the untranslated ayleid ghost dialogue from ESO if we can figure it out contextually: “Ge epea veyn! Eve as gravia lambe ye lael.”

ne – never http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ayleid_Reference_Text

sepa

arcta – accept http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Loriasel_Tablet_Notes

varlor – unknown, possibly related to varlais (stars)

denai – treaties http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Loriasel_Tablet_Notes

noue – of our

staneiaye

ry – as http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ayleid_Reference_Text

alasil – vision http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nilata_Search_Plan

auta

loria – darkens http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Vahtacen%27s_Secret

shanta – come http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Umaril_the_Unfeathered_(person)

abagaiavoy – Do not fear (this is an imperative phrase) http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Umaril_the_Unfeathered_(person)

malautavoy

fey

darre

alata – light http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Remnant_of_Light

malae - of high http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Cleansing_of_the_Fane

asma – by what http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Umaril_the_Unfeathered_(person)

moraga

anyamis – life http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Vahtacen%27s_Secret

sercen

pado – before/elder http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Loriasel_Tablet_Notes , http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Fragmentae_Abyssum_Hermaeus_Morus

wend – journey http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Ravenwatch_Research:_Veawend_Ede

narilia – final http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Loading_Screens

vey

oia – eternal http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Umaril_the_Unfeathered_(person), http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Fragmentae_Abyssum_Hermaeus_Morus

67.161.158.61 22:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

OOG link

My issue is with the note:

Note: the following references are not found in-game. They are included to provide a rounder background to this article, but may not reflect established lore.

While it is actually OOG, we know it comes from the current developer Kurt Kuhlmann (via Lady Nerevar, and I guess that name doesn't need recommendations) and therefore does reflect established lore. The nearest example would be the Game Informer translation of the Dragon script with which I have the same issue. It's not the first time when "OOG" term is misleading.

Also now the literal translation is obsolete an should be updated.Phoenix Neko (talk) 23:33, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

The literal translation doesn't match up with the grammatically correct version, so I think there is very good reason for it to stay. It is also not easy to 'update' as the official translation does not match word-for-word the Falmer text and therefor you can't say 'this word is this word'. The term OOG and its catch-all explanation is fine here, the text is not in the game, and the word 'may' it allows the source to either be official or unofficial; there is no need to change anything over an incorrect perception that 'may not' means 'is not'. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 00:53, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

I see. By updating the literal translation I meant updating its words as the ayleidoon dictionary could be expanded now with the new source. Not replacing it completely, 'cause I agree that the official translation deserves its own section. Logged out Phoenix_Neko 188.162.166.149 10:35, 7 September 2016 (UTC)