Lore talk:Bthardamz

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Dwarven Wolf[edit]

The reference for the dwarven wolf being related to this ruin is a mix of misreading the default name, not understanding what that name means and the most massive leap of speculation I've seen in a long time. The entire basis for including it in this article is that the description for the mount says "ruins of northern and western Skyrim" and the name of the mount is "Btharumz". "Btharumz" (note, not spelled with a D or a second A) is not a typo of this ruin, but rather a word appearing in Calcelmo's Stone. Calcelmo's Stone features in Markarth, which is in western Skyrim, and thus a perfectly understandable reference to make for the name of said mount. To leap from a perfectly logical and reasonable link to a much more tenuous link that is predicated on a developer typo somehow landing on a real word and really meaning this completely unrelated ruin in the Reach seems like textbook example of ignoring Occam's Razor. Without a real link to the wolf, and with a perfectly reasonable name source already present, I see absolutely no reason to include this information on this lore page. Jeancey (talk) 21:04, 11 February 2020 (GMT)

Oh "most massive leap of speculation" is quite a dramatic way to put it. Based on what info can be provided for this mount its very easy to infer what information it was implying. The description "Dwarven Wolves, or Lupine Vamidiums, are most often seen in proximity to Dwemer ruins of northern and western Skyrim, where wolves are most common in the wild. Its loping gait is said to give the most comfortable ride of any mechanical mount." really just spells out the connection.
  • The very few ruins found in northwestern Skyrim are Deep Folk Crossing and Bthardamz. The fact that it mentions "Dwemer ruins" in the first place instead of just saying so-and-so regions means they're referring to ruins we're already familiar with in those areas
  • The default name of "Btharumz" is the closest one can get to "Bthardamz" without outright copying the name (would be the equivalent of saying "Winnipeg the Pooh"), its clearly intended to be a reference
  • The Karthwolf Charger mount was released in the same period as the Dwarven Wolf was. It's description puts the Karthwolf as inhabiting the same wild region the ruin is found in, and lines up with the wolves referenced in the other mount's description

The Rim of the Sky (talk) 21:32, 11 February 2020 (GMT)

It's still all speculation. Btharumz is a real thing and linked to a completely different Dwemer ruin in western skyrim... Why would you assume that this isn't a reference to that, but IS a reference to this ruin? It makes zero sense... I count at least 5 dwemer ruins in the western areas of skyrim. I didn't even start trying to count areas in "Northern" skyrim. Northern and western Skyrim does not mean "northwestern Skyrim". Western Skyrim is a big place, and trying to shoehorn this into a reference of a specific ruin seems like a few too many hoops to jump through.
I'm not sure what you are trying to get at with the Karthwolf Charger. It's not being used as a reference on a lore page as is, and using a completely separate mount added at the same time is WAY outside the realm of acceptable references for a lore page. Jeancey (talk) 22:10, 11 February 2020 (GMT)
Saying this is pure speculation is an invalid statement. Just because something isn't stated outright saying "Dwarven wolves are found at Bthardamz" doesn't mean its a made up lie, we've had to connect the dots in many ways since some things are left a little open-ended. Is Shane gro-Orath a made up alias for Sheogorath? Is the Grand Prognosticator's prophecy referring to Summerset's story? Are Helarchen Creek and Heljarchen Hall the same place when they have ever so slightly different spellings and locations? Better yet, should we go through the entire The 36 Lessons of Vivec and remove every hyperlink because its not specific enough to confirm? Point I'm trying to make is none of this stuff is speculation, its just information that we had to put together, since Zenimax/Bethesda felt no need to directly state that at "oh yeah, we're just going to confirm so and so information because we feel like it". By your logic we should remove just about every Easter Egg since there's rarely been a direct confirmation of what is a reference to what and we just assumed all of it with original research. Don't get me started on how pointless the Nahfahlaar/Nafaalilargus argument became...
So no, you can't discredit me by saying this is speculation. I saw that the description referenced ruins in western and northern Skyrim and figured to narrow it down. The karthwolves were created by the devs at the same time as the dwarven wolves and inhabit western skyrim, so that is not a "far from acceptable" possibility. I saw the name Btharumz and it matched similarly with Bthardamz, the only ruin to be in both western and northern Skyrim (yes, I did in fact read it all correctly) alongside Mzinchaleft and Bthar-Zel, so no, I'm not making stuff up, I had very justified reasons to think why they could be related. I think its a reference, you think it isn't. We can play this game till the end of time and see who gives up first but I don't want to keep arguing about this, I want to come to a compromise so we can settle this.
Fact is that dwarven wolves are found in northern and western Skyrim, narrowing it down to the holds of The Reach, The Pale, and Winterhold, and you can't deny it. Bthardamz is on the shortlist of being one of those ruins, not meaning that it's the only ruin where they're found, just that they're among the ones within the range of the wolves. So with that, we can add a note to the page saying this:
  • Dwarven wolf Vamidiums are described as being most often seen in proximity to Dwemer ruins of northern and western Skyrim, suggesting that they may be found at Bthardamz.
This way, there's no line in the lead paragraph or a photo in the gallery like I argued it should, and there's also no lack of any mention at all of the vamidium on the page like you argued it should. We're just stating the facts without assuming anything directly in one way or the other. Does this work for you? The Rim of the Sky (talk) 20:03, 12 February 2020 (GMT)
Are you going to add that line to every northern and western Dwemer ruin? Bthar-zel has as much name-similarity. Additionally, the original wording on the page said "most often found around Bthardamz", which is not justified from the given description. So, if this detail is relevant to every Dwemer ruin in northern and western Skyrim, we either need to add the line to every page, or we can leave it as a detail found elsewhere. --Lost in Hyrule (talk) 20:36, 12 February 2020 (GMT)
I don't see why not. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 20:43, 12 February 2020 (GMT)
Though, it does not specify that Dwarven Wolves are seen around *every* dwarven ruin in these regions. It's certainly possible there are some where they are not spotted. I think this factoid would be better mentioned on a page about Vamidium, rather than on any particular ruins. --Lost in Hyrule (talk) 20:57, 12 February 2020 (GMT)
I'd support putting it on pages of the relevant ruins with a surface presence (ie. not on the Sightless Pit, Silent City, or Nchuand-Zel) but I would see it noted on ruins like Mzinchaleft or Arkngthamz. This information is already on Vamidium and keeping it exclusively there only hinders supplying this info and has a similar effect to orphaning a page.
Alternatively, we could also expand Lore:Dwemer Ruins and make sections on types of ruins by province, and put this info there instead or in conjuction with individual ruins. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 21:15, 12 February 2020 (GMT)
A note on the Vamidium page is sufficient for this piece of information. They are most often seen in proximity to Dwemer ruins of northern and western Skyrim, meaning they are also seen in other places. Also, "Dwemer ruins of northern and western Skyrim" is too unspecific to pinpoint it to one or a few locations, and all the ruins in northern and western Skyrim are too great a number for this to be a relevant info. We don't put "Dwarven Spiders are often found at this location" in the articles, either. It is definetly nothing unique to Bthardamz. -- SarthesArai Talk 21:35, 12 February 2020 (GMT)
Keeping this info only on the Vamidium page is not sufficient, and spiders are different because they're found at every ruin while wolves are only found at a limited group. This information should be present on other articles, be it on the Dwemer Ruins page or this one. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 21:41, 12 February 2020 (GMT)

() I think it should be on the Dwemer Ruins page, rather than this one. We can reliably state that they show up around Dwemer Ruins, but we cannot reliably state that they appear around Bthardamz. --Lost in Hyrule (talk) 22:42, 12 February 2020 (GMT)

This works for me. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 23:00, 12 February 2020 (GMT)