Lore talk:Breton Names

Reach names vs. High Rock names?

There's a big difference in Skyrim between the names of the Bretons originating from High Rock (ie. French-style names) and the names of the Bretons native to the Reach in Skyrim (closer to Celtic names).

Due to this, should we separate these two categories up rather than just have them all in the same "Skyrim" list? It seems more coherent! :) 86.138.127.54 11:47, 2 April 2013 (GMT)

How many "Reach names" are there anyhow? I mean, there's Madanach, but he's the only one I can think of with a given name. (Maybe Cosnach, which is similar to Madanach?) Seems like it'd be a lot of iffy judgement calls deciding which are which in order to split them up. Unlike, say, the Ashlander names on the Dunmer page, which are clearly very different from standard Dunmer names. Also, we don't have the issue that the Morrowind names had which was that without splitting off the Ashlanders, there would be WAY too many in one section. The number of Bretons in Skyrim is much more manageable - not sure if it really needs to be split. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 12:35, 2 April 2013 (GMT)

I agree that it could lead into the realm of speculation. While names like Amaund Motierre and Angeline Morrard are distinctly High Rock in origin and Madanach, Dryston and Banning likely from the Reach - it could get messy. Perhaps a note on the page indicating the difference that can occur in Breton names (much like Colovian and Nibenees names). --Jimeee (talk) 12:47, 2 April 2013 (GMT)

Being french, I can make the distinction between many of them, but there never was much consistency in Breton names throughout the games. Look at Arena and Daggerfall, all the family names are british and the first names are utter nonsense. I was surprised when I searched for people bearing some Morrowind and Oblivion names that Bethesda did some research, many names that I thought were random syllables put together are actually very old names or variations that haven't been used for centuries. On the other hand, some names, even modern ones, are attributed to the wrong gender, or simply don't exist in any language. And now, the addition of Reach names just adds to the confusion about Breton naming convetions, because some of them look like names from Arena and Daggerfall. Long story short, I could make a non-exhaustive list of Reachmen names, but it wouldn't be significant. Elakyn (talk) 14:10, 2 April 2013 (GMT)

Columns are nice — if one have wide enough screens

I liked how the columns in the section for Arena and Daggerfall names line them up nicely, but if one by any chance have a screen much less than 1280 px wide, it does not fit well. Are there any other ways of doing it nice and orderly? —MortenOSlash (talk) 18:22, 9 April 2013 (GMT)

Well I tried narrowing the screen, and it has to be pretty small before there's a problem on my monitor - like less than half my screen width (okay, I have a widescreen laptop - 1920×1080). I can see where it'd be a problem on mobile screens, but there's a lot of pages that aren't going to fit on a mobile - you kind of get used to that on lots of websites that aren't specifically set up for mobile screens. (Horizontal scrolling is often to be expected on a mobile browser - fortunately it's usually much easier than horizontal scrolling with a mouse.) Honestly, I'm almost thinking we should move all these Arena/Daggerfall name lists to a separate page altogether, say [[Lore:Randomly Generated Names]]. They for the most part bear little resemblance to the names used in later games. Then the formatting for that page can be whatever we choose without it affecting horizontal scale on all 7 of the pages where the lists exist now. (Obviously Imperial and Orc pages are unaffected, and the Redguard page only lists the rules because there's way too many combinations - though I'd like to maybe see some representative examples for those if not an exhaustive list.) And if one page is maybe not mobile-friendly, it's better than all of them being not mobile-friendly. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 00:08, 10 April 2013 (GMT)

Part of the problem is that these wiki pages are set to handle dynamic width, and already when reducing width to something like the classic 1024 px the columns are continuing out far outside the right margin of the rest of the text, and usually well outside the screen. Most of us read UESP on our gaming computers, so 1280 is the least we expect people use, but many read UESP on other devices beside the gaming computer, and on those low resolutions are not uncommon. —MortenOSlash (talk) 04:50, 10 April 2013 (GMT)

I actually do most of my editing and run Wabbajak off of a laptop with a 1024x768 monitor, so I too noticed this oddity. However, it only extends off the page slightly. Personally, I like it much more as a table, even if it does go off the screen slightly. However, that's just me; if anyone has a better suggestion for structuring this, then by all means say it. However, at least for me, having one page slightly off is tolerable. • JA^T 06:45, 10 April 2013 (GMT)

Haskill

I understand that Haskill is tagged as a Breton in terms of appearance, but dialogue in Shivering Isles and its extended lore Interview With Two Denizens of the Shivering Isles imply that he's no mortal at all. In addition, Haskill is a Hebrew name which is a departure from the usual Breton style. If the character is going to be listed here, he might need some kind of a note that he's a special case and may actually be daedric, like Brand-Shei on the Argonian Names page has a note that he's actually an adopted Dunmer. — Unsigned comment by 99.127.173.78 (talk) at 23:49 on 2 June 2013 (GMT)

Reachmen Names (again)

Although this has been brought up before, no real consensus was reached, and with ESO adding more Reachmen names, I would like to bring this up again. Should we make a distinction between the names of Bretons and Reachmen as we did for the Great House and Ashlander Dunmer? While being set as Bretons in-game, Reachmen are a separate race of men, with a different culture and different naming patterns. Most names in question could be decided upon by the bearers allegiance, and in unclearer cases, it would have to be decided by the sound of the name (I know this may be some sort of speculation, but in my opinion the differences between the two naming styles are pretty clear). -- SarthesArai ^Talk 14:14, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree. While the Reachmen are mostly Bretons genetically, their culture is unique, and that includes the names. They're definitely important enough to be dinstinguished, at least those that can be easily recognized as Reachmen (like Madanach, Ainethach, Durcorach, Kaenach etc.) --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 19:49, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Strongly agree. Reachmen names have a clear Celtic influence, which is usually very easy to distinguish from the regular French-sounding names. —Legoless (talk) 23:04, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I strongly agree as well. When I was adding Gargrell Sorick's name, it felt weird putting it on the page because yes, he is a Breton, but the text specifically points out that it's a Reachman name: even the actual material acknowledges the distinct difference. ~ Alarra ^(talk) 04:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I've started a small draft here. It seems the developers of eso were not that consistent, as some clear reachmen have the same first names as some clear bretons... -- SarthesArai ^Talk 22:38, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

It makes sense that some names would be shared between Bretons and Reachmen. Since the Reachmen are partially descended from the Bretons, some Breton names should stick around. Sorry for the necro. Kyncaith (talk) 07:57, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Is "Nana" a name?

"Nana" is listed as a Breton name. "Nana" is what many people call their grandmothers. "Nana Ildene", the old maid at the Treasure House in Markarth, has apparently been there for many, many years. It seems likely that in this case, "Nana" isn't her name but something the residents have taken to calling this old, enduring, humble, perhaps grandmotherly woman. This happens not infrequently in real life.
If this is the case, I'm not sure if "Ildene" is her name or surname. I would guess that it's her name, as most instances of calling someone "Grandma ..." as a term of familiarity use the first name. It seems oddly formal/respectful for a servant to go strictly by their surname when they're always called "Grandma". Kyncaith (talk) 03:43, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

As further proof, in the text for Nana's chatter line, "You just let old nana know if you need anything, all right dear" it is rendered as "nana", uncapitalized. As for whether or not "Ildene" is her first name or not, Rhiada calls her "Ildene" in an NPC conversation. This seems, to me, to indicate that it is her first name. I will admit that it is also rendered "Nana" in some circumstances, and always when paired with "Ildene", but it is also rendered without capitalization. This seems to fall more in line with it not being her name, as erroneously capitalizing a title (or capitalizing it as a term of address) is more likely than forgetting to capitalize a name. Kyncaith (talk) 05:11, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, I've removed it. —Legoless (talk) 07:23, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Reachmen Names seperated from Breton Names

Previous talks on the Lore Talk:Breton Names page had a consensus agreeing to seperate this pages years ago. With the coming of the Markarth DLC, we will have even more reason to, as the lore makes them even more distinct from the bland Breton people. Please agree to seperate the pages.Zebendal (talk) 23:43, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Due to their genetic relation/shared origin with Bretons seemingly have been split even further and the sheer amount of new, Reachfolk specific names I second this. We need a Reachfolk Name page. (Also make it named "Reachfolk Names" as that's the term they use to describe themselves and the new go-to term in ESO: Markarth.)TheynT (talk) 07:58, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Should we not also split off Ashlander names then? —⁠Legoless (talk) 11:38, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

That is a separate discussion entirely. We are talking about separating a distinct race rather than a culture.Zebendal (talk) 20:19, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Reachmen are not a distinct race, they are Bretons. I'm not opposed to splitting the page for a separate culture (it's already quite long), but we need to be consistent. —⁠Legoless (talk) 15:23, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

They aren't Bretons, they never were. And the new DLC only confirms that further: they lived in the Karth Valley before even Elves arrived in the area. They are nedic in blood, mixed with other races that would occupy the Reach, and not just a distinct culture. TheynT (talk) 17:18, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Can you provide a source for that? The Reachmen are Bretons, because the term "Breton" is used to refer to a number of distinct post-Nedic mongrel peoples of northwestern Tamriel—see PGE1 and PGE3. "Nedic in blood, mixed with other races" describes any Breton pretty accurately. They also look identical to other Bretons, which is why the two are often confused (see Skyrim example, ESO example). —⁠Legoless (talk) 00:14, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Whether the Reachmen "are" Bretons or not is a technicality. I think it would be good to separate Reachmen and Breton names (and House Dunmer and Ashlander names) just for the practical purpose: they are differently formed, and it is quite hard to find a pool of purely Reach (or Ashlander) names if you want to, for example, construct a name for your own Reachman/Ashlander character. The two sections could still be on the same page, if needed.

(By the way, I also noticed two different approaches to assign race to ESO Reachmen NPCs: some have it set as "Breton" and some as "Reachman". I think a single approach needs to be agreed here) --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 10:59, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I think the issue is that Reachmen are actually quite often using Nord or in rarer cases Imperial models as well - in that situation Id opt for using the Reachman for all instances of characters that are confirmed to be Reachmen, on the side note , also the fact they use varied models also supports the statement that they are indeed different race than Bretons. Tyrvarion (talk) 1:36, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Game models are not a reliable source compared to the textual examples provided above. It is speculation to infer much from them when we are told repeatedly that Reachmen are just one among several mongrel peoples collectively called Bretons. —⁠Legoless (talk) 15:35, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

(←) Can't we just do exactly like the Ashlander names? Just separate the Reachmen from the other Bretons, but keep them here. The hardest and most time consuming part is probably to even get a good non-controversial list of Reachmen names in the first place. --Ilaro (talk) 11:47, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I am fine with either or, it ends up being in the same page as the Breton page it should be separated.Zebendal (talk) 07:03, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Separating Reachman names is a good idea if they stay on this page. —⁠Legoless (talk) 12:23, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Ilaro's suggestion to do it the same as Ashlander names. While there's now around 400 Reachmen npcs in eso, we only have separate pages for playable races. Maybe one day that could change but even then a race should have at least 1,000 named members before its eligible for its own page, and no non-playable races currently do. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 20:08, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Reviving this discussion, I have just added Reachmen names from Skyrim, and there is also one in Blades. I do think this should be a separate page, I see there being literally no downsides to creating one, as it is basically just a copy-paste job at this point. (I also think Ashlanders should get their own page but that's a different discussion I guess). Imperialbattlespire (talk) 21:58, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

The reason i compromised in the first place is because there was resistance to the ideas from people that can't let go of the concept that Reachmen are NOT an entirely different race. Now that we have proof that they existed before Bretons did. There is no downsides to this. Long before Elves or Nords conquered the region of Karth, tribes of humans inhabited the caves of the Druadach Mountains. It was in these dark places they learned of their new purpose, and it was there they sang songs of fading dreams. (Lets not bring Ashlanders into this discussion, if you feel they deserve their own page, make a talk page for it.)Zebendal (talk) 22:11, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

They didn't exist "before" Bretons, since Bretons trace their human ancestry back to the same native Nedic stock. —⁠Legoless (talk) 22:21, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

But those particular Nede, who are not Bretons, lived in the Karth since the Dawn of Time. Making them unique. Else we'll have to combine Breton, Nord, Imperial, Atmoran, Kothringi and all other human names into one list because they are all human. The Reachfolk are a distinct people and it's ample time they receive their own name page. - TheynT (talk) 23:35, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm fine with how things are now and I'm gonna stand by that there aren't enough Reachmen to warrant a page. Bare minimum there's needs to be at least 1,000 unique names to have their own page, or it should be limited to just playable races. Until there are more Reachmen names they should be treated the same as Ashlander names. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 05:15, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

But Reachfolk are not simply a culture. Ashlanders are Dunmer, so there's reason to have them listed with the Dunmer names. Reachfolk meanwhile are Reachfolk, not Bretons. Listing them alongside Bretons is simply wrong. - TheynT (talk) 12:53, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

(←) I think this discussion is becoming mired in the debate over whether Reachmen are Bretons or not. What exactly is the proposal here? We already have Lore:Breton Names/Reachman. Do we want to move this to Lore:Reachman Names? I would be fine with this, provided the list continues to be transcluded here. I don't see any consensus here to move away from defining Reachmen as a subgroup of Bretons. —⁠Legoless (talk) 16:53, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes that's all I'm proposing, the move to Reachmen names that is. Imperialbattlespire (talk) 16:54, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Seeing them as a subgroup of Bretons in the first place is false. The Humans who would live in the Karth existed there before other Humans or Elves arrived in the area. Those are the first Reachfolk. But this is indeed not the center of this discussion - it's solely about wether they should have a Name Page of their own. Which I argued in favor for, because as a race of their own they shouldn't be listed under a different human race's name list. - TheynT (talk) 17:04, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree that Reachmen should have~separate name page, it would be consistent with how they are treated on cuisine and death belief pages as well as make the Breton names page less bloated Tyrvarion (talk) 15:27, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Ethian

In the male ESO section Ethian is part way through the D names rather than in the the correct spot. 81.105.210.188 10:32, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing. It should be fixed now.Tyrvarion (talk) 11:34, 11 May 2022 (UTC)