Lore talk:Astronomy

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The Serpent- an Ophiuchus reference?[edit]

Does anybody think that the Serpent Birthsign is based on the Starsign of Ophiuchus [1]? Since it is the 13th birthsign and the sign of Ophiuchus is the 13th zodiac symbol I thought there could be a link. Also the sign of Ophiuchus is apparently a man supporting a serpent- another reference to Tamriels serpent birthsign.--Willyhead 14:59, 15 August 2007 (EDT)

Gender Identity?[edit]

Okay, I can almost see why the Shadow's referenced as a "her," by looking at the Redguard picture, but the Steed and Thief? Arguable. Can we neutralize the gender on those? Somercy 10:28, 5 October 2007 (EDT)

On the theif, you can see larger breasts than most males would have.....

As for steed, there is no way of telling, so I will make it, "it". 77BeTa77

Personally, I can really tell much of the Redguard pictures (most of them kind of look like dwemner robots or something), and on Morrowinds theif, I can see the resembleance of breasts, however not in Oblivion's version. Actually, I think the constellations aren't supposed to have genders, or rather they represent, in this case, a theif, nothing more, nothing less, or more precisely, all thieves, and the picture is just a representation of the people of those aspects - for example, a lover is more in tune in their feelings, or a lady is strong in aspects that are common in women or considered related to women. Also, I think the Redguard picture for the shadow is a ghost or some kind of spirit, without any sort of resembleance, male or female. --Adoring Fan 22:40, 28 March 2008 (EDT)
Reading a book in a Oblivion, it would seem that bethsda thinks the steed as a female. I have edited it accordingly. 77BeTa77 13:53, 10 April 2008 (EDT)
And I've changed it back. Which book do you mean? –RpehTCE 14:12, 10 April 2008 (EDT)
The Firmament 77BeTa77 14:29, 10 April 2008 (EDT)
Yeah okay. Changed back again. –RpehTCE 14:34, 10 April 2008 (EDT)

infinite size?[edit]

Michael Kirkbride claimes planets and moons are all of infinite size

1. should we mention this?

2. Baan Dar proves this wrong should we mention it? --Diobern 09:52, 4 November 2008 (EST)

Baar Dau doesn't disprove anything. 13:15, 4 November 2008 (EST)

i can fly AROUND IT its not infinite Diobern 18:17, 29 December 2008 (EST)

The moon is round when it looks like a cresecent, and you don't see light moving as a wave either. This is quantum physics, but in Nirn. The Ministry of Truth is depicted in the Sermons as (IIRC) a monstrous child of Vivec looking for revenge. So if not a god, some sort of heavenly entity. When you look at a god (an ineffable concept, an infinite value) you see a heavenly body, which is, as it is in real life, a rock. It's not infinite so much as no possible size can be assigned to it. Of course, the human eye isn't really equipped for seeing this. 20:51, 29 December 2008 (EST)

constelations in oblivion[edit]

In Oblivion, can you actually see the constelations in gameplay at night?Mor'tar'iit 03:15, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

No,You cannot see constelations in oblivion-Thedrunknord 23:50, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
They put so much effort into the game but no constellations in the sky!? Well, that's lame. --Julia 21:27, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree, I thought they were there, I just hadn't looked yet. Can anyone else confirm that they are definitely NOT in the sky?--D. Gemini 18:10, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
I can confirm that "The Lord", at least, is up there -- I spotted it a few days ago and took a snapshot.--Hanpritcher 05:43, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
OMG Thank you! That is definitely The Lord up there the world makes sense again! =P Now I know I can go out and find some other constellations some night when I get bored of doing quests. I get excited over the little things. I just couldn't believe they weren't up there in that beautiful sky. I think someone should add the images for all the constellations in Oblivion to the Lore:Astronomy article All that's there is the Orerry shots that don't make sense to me. (maybe because I can't get that plug-in since I play on the PS3) --D. Gemini 06:09, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Pictures from the Orrery Plug-in[edit]

Perhaps this article would benefit from a few screenshots from the Dwarven Orrery in Oblivions Orrery plug-in. A picture of the planetary system, and pictures of the birthsign symbols would be nice in my opinion. For the symbols, check my sandbox for a suggestion. Not sure if the images there are up to the sites standards. I'm not too good at images, but I can try to take some screens of the planetary system model, edit them and upload one if it is any good, and if there is any interest. Quill 15:21, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Consider me interested - I have always liked this page and the more game images the better. Jadrax 13:55, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Those images are excellent, and I can't believe I never noticed them before! Please - add them! rpeh •TCE 00:38, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
All right, I'll get to adding them then, but I'm not entirely sure about where in the article they fit in. I mean, they are not exactly depictions of the birthsigns, like all the other illustrations shown under the respective birthsign. They are just symbols from the Dwemeri alphabet. But of course, they still represent their respective birthsign, so maybe they DO fit in after all. If there are no better suggestions or objections, I'll add them so that the page is similar to the sandbox I linked to above. Quill 11:23, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
That looks sensible to me. One thing it might be worth looking for is if you can get some sort of view of the Orrery that shows how it matches the starmap from Redguard? Jadrax 15:26, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
One little tweak needs doing that I hadn't spotted before: DWEMER UNK3.GIF is now known to be "B" rather than unknown - see the discussion here. At some point I'll rename the files, but in the meantime please could you change that in the table at the top when you put your changes live? rpeh •TCE 17:15, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) Sure, I'll fix that while I'm adding the images. As for the Redguard starmap, I'm not sure if it matches the dome of the orrery. I'll try to get some screens to find out, but maybe it would be easier to find the texture in the CS and get it as a flat image? I'll see what I can do.Quill 12:48, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

The stars in the orrery are a 1024x1024 square of white, cyan and blue dots. Finding the star patterns in it would be.... tricky, if they exist at all. rpeh •TCE 15:05, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I was actually thinking more of the Orray roof that Quill had made the images of. If you look at it in the CS, its a globe that is similar but different the images of Dwemer and Yokuda starmaps already on the page. The problem is to my mind, I am not sure how you could go about displaying a sphere properly for comparison. Jadrax 15:35, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I was thinking of the dome structure itself rather than of the stars in the Orrery. But maybe making a comparison between the starmaps and the dome is a later project. I've been on a slow internet connection this week, out in the countryside, so I haven't gotten around to adding the images yet. Gonna do that now, though.Quill 20:56, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Starmaps and the Orrery[edit]

(See also the previous section) I've been trying to find the texture/s for the Orrery "dome" (the sphere with the symbols) using OBMMs NifViewer and NifSkope, but I'm afraid that I simply am not up to the task. As far as I understand - and given my limited experience in this field, I might very well be wrong - there is no single texture fore the dome. It seems to use several textures, and I can't patch them together to do anything useful in regard to the starmaps. I had hoped to be able to extract the texture to avoid going through the trouble of projecting the inside of a sphere on a flat surface, which as far as I understand would have to be done to compare the Orrery dome with the starmaps. If anyone else is up to the task or has applicable knowledge or creative ideas on how to solve this, I would be delighted. I really think that pictures of the starmaps from Redguard side by side with a picture of the "starmap" that is the dome of the orrery would make a nice addition to the article. Quill 21:21, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Planetary system[edit]

I am working on an addition to the article, where I try to describe the planetary system as depicted in the orrery. Please check it out in my sandbox. I'm not sure if I can go any further without drawing from out-of-game sources, but any suggestions and ideas would be appreciated. Quill 22:04, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Unfortunately no further in game sources come to mind right now. Jadrax 02:56, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Redguard Birthsigns[edit]

I know what they're supposed to be, and what they claim to be but...How do you get the Steed from THAT? And the apprentice seems less like an apprentice, more like an atronach...But the atronach sign seems to be a jumble of crazy. I never really understood what the Ritual was supposed to be (An eye, yes, but thats it.) and yet this is somehow even more confusing.

I feel like i must be missing something really obvious, and yet I can't seem to place it. Im pretty sure the information here is accurate, but it seems..meaningless? 21:43, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

The signs may not resemble the ones from the more recent games, but those jumbles of crazy certainly aren't meaningless (although I agree that some are a bit vague-looking). As for the Ritual, the eye is the same one used as the symbol of the Mages Guild. I'm not sure what further meaning it might hold. --Legoless 22:08, 26 June 2011 (UTC)


ok, I'm very new to this and have no idea what I'm doing as I type this, and I can only assume I'm doing it wrong, but I just want to add that I think the Ritual might be a nod to the real world symbol for Ra. It might have to do with something similar, or like an in-game god that is similar to Ra. — Unsigned comment by (talk) on 14 July 2011

The eye is not of Ra but the Eye of Horus, the Mages guild's symbol is simply backwards. Also the 'birthsigns' are like perks in Fallout 3/New Vegas with good or bad effects. UESP don't kill me for making that reference!"There is always hope"-Aragorn 13:54, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
The illustration of the Ritual's eye in both Morrowind and Oblivion almost certainly draws from the Eye of Horus, and the Restore Health spell associated with it would fit with the eye's being a symbol of protection and health... but I still don't think it's worth mentioning. We only mention clear easter eggs, or every page would be cluttered with things that relate to other things. rpeh •TCE 06:52, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Added a word in article[edit]

Masser is the larger of the two, "well" over twice as large by appearance. Since Secunda is sometimes seen to transit Masser, it is clear that Masser is indeed larger, not closer. (I feel that "well" should be in there because since the moon is further it is actually more likely 4-10 times larger than Secunda.) --D. Gemini 18:12, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Skyrim Constellations[edit]

Now, I haven't actually played Skyrim yet, but I assume that there are constellations in it, just like in any TES games. Can anyone add the pics of them or something? -- kertaw48 07:29, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, they've replaced birthsigns with Standing Stones, there are Perk trees which are constellations, but I'm unsure as to whether they should be mentioned here. (Eddie The Head 09:39, 9 April 2012 (UTC))
The three Guardians appear on the skills menu. I'm not sure about the rest, but they are probably present in the night sky similar to previous games. This article certainly needs to be updated. --Legoless 13:23, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
I opened the BSA files of SKYRIM and the art of the constellations were (are) there. If you want, I can post it here... I think that this arcticle needs new images. --Karnilmo 03:53, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
That would certainly be appreciated. —Legoless 11:31, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
These are the New Images of the constellations that appear in the Game Skyrim. --Karnilmo 00:55, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
The Apprentice
Sun's Height
The Atronach
Sun's Dusk
The Lady
The Lord
First Seed
The Lover
Sun's Dawn
The Mage
Rain's Hand
The Ritual
Morning Star
The Serpent
No Season
The Shadow
Second Seed
The Steed
Mid Year
The Thief
Evening Star
The Tower
The Warrior
Last Seed

--Karnilmo 00:55, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Those images can be found in the section for book images, but it looks like they weren't actually used anywere ingame. --Alfwyn (talk) 22:37, 13 September 2012 (GMT)
A similar set of images are the textures used by the Standing Stones. I uploaded an example here (stars/glowing part) --Alfwyn (talk) 11:18, 19 October 2012 (GMT)

Separate moon phases defy physics[edit]

Something just occurred to me - I wonder if it's ever been explained in lore. For some reason, the phases of Masser and Secunda seem to be entirely independent of each other, which when you think about how moon phases work, it makes absolutely no sense. When you see only a sliver of the moon, it's because you're seeing the part being lit by the sun, which is shining in a more-or-less constant direction. (It's far enough away that the light rays are nearly parallel by the time they get to us.) Thus, if there were two moons in the sky, they would have to be lit from the same direction. It wouldn't even matter if they were on opposite sides of the sky. From a single observer's perspective, the slice of sky you can see at any one time is so small that it would be impossible for two objects in that slice to be lit from different directions. Try it yourself - go to a dark room with a flashlight and two spherical objects. Put the light far away, and hold the spheres in front of your face (as if your head is the planet), and you'll find no position where you can stand and hold the spheres and have them be lit from different angles. Only way it'd be possible is with 2 light sources, and then each sphere would somehow have to be lit only by one and shadowed from the other all the time, which would itself be somewhat challenging. Ah well. Just me, over-analyzing again... --TheRealLurlock Talk 02:15, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I guess the Earthbones, or "physics" as you call them, function differently in Mundus than they do in real life. This is a good example (along with the fact that you can see stars through the darker part of the moons) of why all that gibberish about astrology in TES should be taken seriously when writing an article like this. Better question yet: why don't we ever hear of other planets having phases? -- kertaw48 08:47, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Well, you can't really see any of the other planets close enough to tell whether they have phases. I suppose technically, if you looked at Mars or Venus through a powerful enough telescope, it would have phases just like the moon, but the most you can ever see with the naked eye is just a bright dot. (In fact Earth itself has phases - we just know them as day and night down here, but if you see the photos taken from the Moon or elsewhere in outer space, you definitely get phases the same way the Moon has phases from down here.) Clearly, though, these rules don't apply in the ES universe, which begs the question: What ARE phases in this universe? They seem to mimic what we think of as phases in the real world, but clearly they are something different somehow. Strange... --TheRealLurlock Talk 14:31, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
I don't think an explanation has ever been given, as least not in game. There may be some out of game texts explaining things. —Legoless 14:39, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

() Actually, an explanation HAS been given, on the very Imperial Library webpage that this page links to. The "phases" of Masser and Secunda are a feature of their rotting, as they are the bisected corpse of a deity. You really can't bring real-world physics in to the context of a reality that is completely founded on magick. Ask anybody who plays D&D. Sanguine Prince (talk) 23:57, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Actually, there has never been an in-game or even official explanation. Everyone involved in this 5 year old discussion is well aware of the Temple Zero Society and its role in fan speculation about lore. Also there is nothing wrong with trying to find a scientific explanation before resorting to the very dull answer that is "it's magic", especially when the rules of our universe are the rules upon which the game is founded. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:51, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
Whoops, I missed the dates. You could be less snappy about it, though. And... Where exactly are you pulling "...the rules of our universe are the rules upon which the game is founded" from? I wasn't aware that our moon was the corpse of a god, or that the planets were self-contained pockets of reality, or that our night sky was actually a hole-filled fabric between us and another dimension. But I guess that's just because I'm not an astronomer. Sanguine Prince (talk) 03:06, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Apprentice image out of alignment?[edit]

Anyone else getting the 4th image under the Apprentice section being misaligned? It's in the center, whereas it's on the left for all the other signs. The formatting seems to be identical, though, so I don't know what's causing it. --TheRealLurlock Talk 14:48, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Looks the same as the others to me. ABCface 20:44, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Now on my laptop, which has a wider screen, I see all 4 images on one line, but if you make the browser window narrower, so that the 4th image goes to a new line, you see the difference - The Apprentice image ends up in the middle, while the others are on the left. Maybe if we standardized the image sizes such that they'd all work on smaller screens it would solve the issue... --TheRealLurlock Talk 00:44, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Strange, when I make my browser window smaller, they're completely inconsistent. When the fourth images are moved to a new line, all of them are on the left except for Lady, Lord, Lover, Mage, and Ritual. As you mentioned in your first post here, the formatting looks to be identical, so I'm not sure what's causing the inconsistencies, but I'm also not sure if it's enough of an issue to worry about. ABCface 17:42, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
They all show as left-aligned to me when I shrink the browser window. —Legoless 18:33, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

skyrim perk tree[edit]

I want to suggest adding skyrim perk tree into this article,but before that, I want get more information. Are there any source that suggest their origin? I think they may related to sovngarde as the sky of it looks like it. But werewolf and vampire lord perk tree is still not explained. (Vvardfell (talk) 14:10, 1 December 2012 (GMT))

Sovngarde? What? The constellations from the perk trees are the same ones as always. I'm really not sure what to make of the new Bat/Vampire constellation. As for the werewolf perk tree, it's pretty obvious that it's the Bloodmoon (see Lore:Bloodmoon Prophecy), so I don't think it's actually a constellation, just Secunda. —Legoless (talk) 15:34, 1 December 2012 (GMT)

Shandar's Sorrow or Stendarr's Sorrow?[edit]

In the "Mara's Tear" book from Daggerfall, Secunda is called Shandar's Sorrow, not Stendarr's Sorrow. Is the article wrong, the book not authoritative, or the lore inconsistent, or is Shandar an alternative name of Stendarr? — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 20:48 on 3 April 2018

The article takes the name from the Varieties of Faith book. Shandar appears to be a mistake, or at least an early version of Stendarr, though Stendarr is in other places in Daggerfall. There are no other uses of Shandar outside that book. While Mara's Tear is usable as a source, and there is only one other source for the name, I think the fact that it is a name that appears nowhere else, along with it being superseeded by the newer books, it can simply be labeled outdated lore. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:59, 3 April 2018 (UTC)