User talk:Wrye/Somewhat Acerbic Modders Dictionary
- 1 General
- 2 Anti-Weasling
- 3 Ask-Firsts
- 4 Back Seat Modder
- 5 Big Plans Modder
- 6 Check my Load Order
- 7 Cheerleader
- 8 Diamante Modder
- 9 Fairy Link
- 10 Fanon
- 11 Fluffers
- 12 Goldfish Modder
- 13 Gushers and Bashers
- 14 Haphazard Mods
- 15 Hidden Gems
- 16 Info Rocket-Engeneering
- 17 Lorists
- 18 McGuyvering
- 19 Messies
- 20 Monolithic vs. Modular
- 21 Morrowhiner
- 22 Ninja Modder
- 23 Notaku
- 24 OBSEssionists
- 25 OCD/Worriers/Detail Oriented
- 26 Old Hat Inventors
- 27 R&D Lab
- 28 Sisyphus' Mod List
- 29 TEStapo
- 30 WannaTC
- 31 Wikipedia Links Update
- 32 Xeno-Lore backlash?
- 33 Consolitis/Graphics
- 34 Xenolore
- 35 Lore Sjöberg's page
I originally created this dictionary on my website, but a forum posting regarded it released quite a few suggestions and additions, so I've decided to open it up a bit, and act as bit more as editor of various suggestions.
Right now the page is in my user space, but I expect to later move it to the Review namespace or another similar space. Unlike most wiki pages the article is not open for general editing -- but neither is it entirely owned by one person. My plan is to shared editorship a bit and leave the page open to be passed along to other editors when I depart. At the moment, I've volunteered Princess Stomper as co-editor. (I suppose I should have asked her first. :) She may be too busy.) Anyway, hopefully the small editorship will help keep a consistent tone.
- New suggestions and comments on existing terms should be added on this page, or on the forum topic. I'll port over some exiting comments as examples.
- The acerbic, mildly ironic tone seems to be accepted, so I'm sticking with that. Please try to keep tones from being too biting.
- I'm thinking that we'll also have an "In defense of" section for many entries.
I made up a term a while back that I've just been reminded of it: Antiweasling. This is "fanon" that is introduced when you know full well the devs' explanation for something but you consider it "weasling" so you make up something you think is more plausible. e.g. Weasling: "Horses don't live on Morrowind because the Elves eat them and they're allergic to the weeds." Anti-Weasling: "Of course, that's what they tell you! The real explanation is that the Imperials levied extortionate import taxes on horses and nobody wants to pay it." --Princess Stomper
- I think that qualifies as "fanwanking" (see Canon (fiction). Though it certainly sounds less rude. --Wrye 20:18, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
Also, a key feature of the Ask-Firsts is that they spend hours bumping their posts and writing "any1???" repeatedly when during this time they could have found their answer 100 times over with a fraction of the effort, had they any personal initiative. --Kateri
How about the people who continually ignore the existing relevant threads and start one of their own? You know, the ones who start a "where can I find XXXXX" or "why doesn't YYYYY work" thread despite the existence of threads like "Mod Detectives/Psychics" and the various RELz threads.
I know it can sometimes be difficult to go through hundreds of posts about a mod to see if someone has previously asked the same thing, but surely it's not rocket-science to hunt down an appropriate thread and post in it?
Maybe they are a sub-set of the Ask-Firster. Or maybe the Ask-Firster is a sub-set of the Searchaphobic. --TrenchardsLoveSock
I'd love to know who it was who taught me how to use the Search button. I was an ask-firster, but only because I just didn't notice the search button, and still less knew how to use it.
Next time you're tempted to yell at an ask-firster, it's best to ... ask first whether they've actually noticed the button on the top right. --Princess Stomper
Back Seat Modder
Oh and there's the back seat modder - someone who takes over a WIP thread and insists that the original author implements all of their ideas. --Scanti
- Done. --Wrye 20:22, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
Big Plans Modder
Maybe change the Big Plans Modder to the Macrocosm modder. --Scanti
- Macrocosm suggests TC, which isn't (usually) the case. Also, I like pithiness of "Big Plans Modder". --Wrye 20:23, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
Check my Load Order
there should be a term for people that post "check my load order," or at least for the threads they create. they are surely frequent enough to warrant a nifty name. --Lady Nerevar
- I like it. I just haven't thought of sufficiently nifty name for it. Pyloist and Pyloee don't quite work. --Wrye 01:32, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
- Pylorus? Helicobacter Pylori? :P --Gez 17:49, 5 November 2008 (EST)
- PDLO. --Wrye 21:50, 15 November 2008 (EST)
I think you're missing a subtype of Cheerleader, though. Not sure what term you would use, but I actively and encourage a lot of mods that I'll never actually get a chance to play. But that doesn't mean my appreciation is insincere. It just means I have limited time by proportion to all the great mods being made. I do wish I had time to try them all. If I do actually use a mod then I generally try to follow up with more specific suggestions and feedback. --dev_akm
Diamante modder - someone who creates beauty mods to make the game all pretty and sparkly. (Diamante are those fake diamonds that cover tacky pieces of jewelry that shopping channels try to sell.) --Scanti
- Done? I've added Gaudjit (Gaudy Gadget/Item) and Tin Gaudjit. Is that what you were thinking of? --Wrye 00:23, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
Community members who don't check back on a new plugin download page for at least an hour / day on regualar base before they recommend it, most likely produce a fairy link (dead link), because the download page and content have allready vanished.
- Also see ==Marble players== (in this context: Murphy's fairy links and rapid marble player law applies:
the moment you link content, the authors will pick up their marbles again and play elsewhere).
Chairon De Celeste 184.108.40.206 07:38, 16 February 2009 (EST)
Fanon. This is what happens when modders can't find the lore they're after, so they just make up the missing bits in a manner that they hope approximates what's already out there - e.g. filling in missing years in biographies, or "what happened between 3E 429 and 3E 433". --Princess Stomper
- Fanon already exists, but it refers to fan originated lore that thas become generally accepted as canonical. See Canon (ficton). --Wrye 20:13, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
- I'm thinking of "Lore Patching", but that may be too broad. Covers any sort of patching of lore. I.e. covers both weasling and anti-weasling. Closely related to "retcon" idea too. --Wrye 00:25, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
- Done Lore Patching. --Wrye 01:32, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
Fluffers - Post "Any updates? Please don't let this be dead!" in WIP threads left unattended for more than 8 hours. --Kateri
- I think "Fluffers" may evolve to Necromancers when start bumping in very old thread. --Konstant Necromant
- True, but personally (since I have two very often long-dormant threads on projects that I actually am working on when I get time) I really appreciate it when someone expresses interest in one of my threads. I hate keeping people waiting as long as I have, but that's the nature of the beast for me, unfortunately. --DragoonWraith
- Done. --Wrye 00:23, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
Goldfish Modder: Someone with 150 projects on the go, who manages to rarely finish anything because they keep getting distracted by new ideas every time they're close to completion. --Princess Stomper
that's classic. only... a goldfish has no long term memory, it doesn't get distracted, it simply forgets. a more accurate term would be the Kitten Modder . --LazyMonk
- Done. --Wrye 00:23, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
Gushers and Bashers
Gushers gush praise all over a mod, often from the WIP stage, and will brook no criticism of it whatsoever. Even polite constructive criticism over minor aspects will provoke instant rebuttal. Gushers generally mean well but can be disruptive, especially if they let their enthusiasm overcome good netiquette when defending the object of their affections. Essentially the lunatic fringe of the Cheerleaders. --Hercerinde
- Hmmm... I think that there's a very natural human tendency to form groups of us vs. them. And there are people who are overly prone to do this. ("Devoted Followers" one might say.) Still, the distinction between a valid defense of someone who's being attacked and an overly defensive and prickly response can be hard to make. So, while I think that such a term while useful in my own head and in private comments to other people, is likely to be more destructive than constructive in public debate. --Wrye 22:14, 15 November 2008 (EST)
Bashers are the opposite. Once they've decided they don't like something they'll go out of their way to make sure everyone knows it, and they won't let anyone change their minds either. Rude Bashers who aren't particularly smart, rational or literate are almost indistinguishable from Trolls at first glance, but they're distinct from the Troll in that they aren't intentionally trying to cause trouble - they think their view is not only legitimate but right, and just want it to be known. They aren't necessarily as openly offensive as a Troll either. A Basher can actually be quite wordy and even urbane, the key part is that they are only ever critical and refuse to reconsider their negative position. The TES forum's community and moderators tend to curb-stomp these quite quickly but they prosper on some other sites. --Hercerinde
Another scale is how focussed a modder usually works. Some do more specialized mods, while others usually make more broader mods (which are in the middle of this "slider"). Then there are modders who put together whatever they like, thus working quite defocussed. Example given: The unofficial patch is very focussed, only fixing bugs and keeping the game like Bethesda had wanted it to be. Now compare to a very popular German "unofficial patch": In time it defocussed and now also includes a new UI, house improvements, few selected features of Fran's, it's changing birthsigns, calculation of Magicka and it's regeneration, and many, many more stuff. In my experience this tend to correlate a bit with "III", though, because defocussed modders tend to create a lot of compatibility problems. I fear discussions will follow, so I'm just throwing in an example: While you may think OOO is defocussed, it's not including stuff like a character leveling system, forces you to use a certain body mod, makes it impossible to use armors and weapons from other mods. As you may have guessed, there's a non English alternative to OOO which does include these things. --bg2408
- Done. Overlord Mods. (I'm not going to be neutral on this one. :lol:) --Wrye 01:32, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
"Gem Hider". Sounds funny, but I don't know of a more fitting term. Some modders do really marvellous mods - but don't get much (if any) attention, because they suck at presenting their mods. Which is a pity. Example given: I'm newswriter for a large non English Elder Scrolls page, we still don't have a user upload system (sigh, where have all the coders gone?), so often I'm uploading other people's mods, too (when requested, of course - we're no "wild uploader"). Now some of them have great modding skills, create beautiful new armor / weapons, put together an interesting quest, or something other - and then their ReadMe / download text consists of two lines, which doesn't do their mods any justice. The "underdog mod list" thread in this forum listed many "hidden gems". --bg2408
- Hmmm... "Hidden Gems" is the most obvious term -- but of course, that's not a special term. --Wrye 01:32, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
Common phenomen in many tutorials, plugin descriptions or average postings. The author(s) explain even the easiest matters in a most complicated way.
This not only grants them the air of a misunderstood genius but in addition clearly shows their disinterest in sharing their knowledge / content.
Chairon De Celeste 220.127.116.11 07:38, 16 February 2009 (EST)
Or we could use Bethesda's none-too-flattering "lore-mongers" No, I will never let them live that one down. --DragoonWraith
Maybe better would be adding a subcat for Lore Fundamentalists, who insist on the inerrancy of previous, "better" Elder Scrolls games. This type of person is very distinct from the more liberal (and probably more numerous) Lore Lovers, who don't so much care about literal adherence to prior Elder Scrolls lore, but rather appreciate any reasonably good attempt to expand the game lore or explain things that otherwise don't fit into the Elder Scrolls universe.
For example, I don't know that much lore myself, but I greatly appreciate the small amounts of lore I do absorb. I also like plenty of mods that bend and twist or even just break the lore, if they do it well. --dev_akm
- I've added some lore related terms, but I guess I need something like "Lore Police" (but less negative). Hmm... --Wrye 01:32, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
- You have both overlooked the likeliest pun: "Lore Khans." And Lore Fundamentalists don't care about better games so much as better lore. They also don't exist in great numbers because the people you're thinking about usually end up writing fan lore themselves.18.104.22.168 20:33, 27 October 2008 (EDT)
- Only a loreist is going to get that pun! If I'm having to stretch to figure it out, it's probably a little to obscure. Cute though. :) --Wrye 00:46, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
- I've seen the term 'lore purist' used around the bsg forums. Might be a sub-breed of Lorist or equally of Immersionist - the 'lore purist' is someone who likes mods to be 'lore correct' and won't use stuff like Mog Mods, Halo weapons, etc. Their player spectrum runs from nice -> bastard, with the 'bastard' end being those who think their subjective tastes are objective truths and will rant at length on this theme. There also seems to be a species of player who scorn lore purists, accusing them of being unimaginative or close-minded (rather unfairly in many cases). It may be that in many cases these anti-lore-purists are Cheerleaders for a mod that is taking criticism on lorist grounds. Hecerinde 18:51, 15 November 2008 (EST)
My general comments here.
- I'm very sympathetic to the desire to have a consistent mythology (aka lore) in a game (or any fictional venue). I think that one of the pleasures of fantastic fiction is discovering the rules of the world -- what abilities they have, what they don't have, and then how all that fits together. If the lore is well constructed, then after a while you know what to expect and what not to expect -- the world, though different from our own is knowable. It's a puzzle that you've puzzled out.
- So just throwing arbitrary elements without regard for consistency, is akin to taking a recipe by a great chef and just aribitrarily throwing other ingredients in -- you pretty quickly end up with junk.
- There's an economic/military/technological/etc. impact to consider too. E.g. suppose that you have a world without horses (or similar), and then some mod introduces a couple of horses because someone just loves horses. Well horses have a huge technological/military impact. Society as a whole becomes more mobile, shipping increases, and (importantly) military is revolutionized -- nine times out ten, cavalry will trounce infantry. Hence you can't just throw arbitrary stuff in without upsetting the whole world.
- Some things are more subtle. E.g. goths in Cyrodiil. Goth is attitude of disaffection of ennui by people who basically have the time and wealth to afford it. That doesn't make sense in a roughly medieval socieity where most people are working eighty hour weeks just to get by (e.g. 90% of population working on farms, living with dirt floors). Now granted it's a game, and some artistic license is desirable, but there are limits.
- Speaking of artistic consistency... Again it's jarring when elements of distinct artistic visions are mixed. E.g. mogs in Cyrodiil. They just don't fit. (Except perhaps as vermin to be hunted down and used as tropies or served in stews.)
- On the other hand, I think that many folks who focus on lore become overly tied to what books in the game said. As in our world, not everything that's written in a book is right. Hence, there's certainly room for more flexibility than these folks might allow.
So, long answer... Basically, I like "Loreist", I think that it's fairly accurate, and is ambiguous enough to let the user decide when to interpret it as "someone who knows a lot about the lore" vs. "someone who is overly strict about lore". --Wrye 23:00, 15 November 2008 (EST)
Another idea which came to my mind, but (truth be told) isn't that present in this modding community: Direct approachers vs cheaters (again a scale). Now don't get upset about cheaters - I'm refering to an old saying from the very beginning of user made content for games - "mapping means cheating". In the old days you had to trick the engines to create what you want (if any of you remember breaking glass in Unreal (Tournament), it was just a particle spawn and a door moving out of visibility). Today many follow more direct approaches in modding. Example given for Oblivion modding: To create a shape change into animal mod the direct approachers choose a route by changing the player directly. Xilverbullet on the other hand "cheated" and instead just put the player as an invisible dwarf onto a rideable animal. Sneaky, but effective. A more neutral term would be "out of the box thinkers" or something. --bg2408
- I'm suggesting 'McGuyering' here. "Hack" and "kluge" may fit though. --Wrye
- Done. MacGuyver (verb) --Wrye 01:02, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
"Messies": Some modders are quite experienced, know what they're doing with quests or location design or features or textures / meshes, but nevertheless everything they release is full of unnecessary "dirty" changes, identical to master records, unintented stuff and all that. Mods by those people may be very good, but definitely needs the tes4edit treatment. --bg2408
- Now, to me, that's not a good modder. It's not even a compatibility - that's just poor modding. I know a lot of modders will mod messily, and have lots of unnecessary edits as they try different things and the like - but if they're any good, they clean it up with tes4edit. Anyone who releases a mod like that is not, in my opinion, a very good modder. They may be a good writer, landscape/interior designers, modeler, or texturer, but they are not a good modder. --DragoonWraith
- Of course releasing messy mods is a highly problematic behaviour and doesn't let a modder's skill shine in a very good light. I've thrown in this kind of modders because of that lovely "utterly frustrated" thread. Artmoor had a very great example of bad modding behaviour - although in my eyes messy behaviour, not necessarily an isolationist (the modder in question may have been, I don't know, just as an example it looked more like "messy work"). --bg2408
- That guy would probably fit both categories. A "messy isolationist" since he not only made a huge mess, but actively refuses to clean it up at the same time even knowing the compatibility issues it caused. This despite the work on the actual mod itself being fairly good. The collateral damage done was just too high though. --Arthmoor
- Yeah, I know what you mean. I can think of someone whose mods would be excellent if they weren't absolutely impossible to use - and there are so many dirty refs you could probably make the mod yourself from scratch quicker than it would take you to clean it. --Princess Stomper
- Hmm... Neet to think about it. --Wrye 01:32, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
Monolithic vs. Modular
My suggestions - feel free to change name, I'm not the best at inventing labels. The first two are not types, but "scales" which go from one extreme to another. ...
While this is something which can change drastically from one mod to the next, I've observed that some modders mostly release very modular mods (mods with many .esp options for users to adjust them), while others tend to release "singular" files (no configuration options, but easier to install. Please, before all of you are throwing tomatoes at me - I think both approaches are equally valid, the first a bit more targeted at experienced users, the second much more newbie friendly). Maybe modularists / singularists? --bg2408
- Given the existence of other terms, I think this is more than is needed. In short modularization is a technique aimed at achieving compatibility (though it is not without its tradeoffs). Might belong in an detail section for Isolationists. --Wrye 00:13, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
Morrowhiner - Someone who constantly requests Mods to be made "Just like in Morrowind" --Thraxonas
- I've sort of got that in "Lorecadian". I think I'll pass on Morrowhiner. Comes off as too negative given that there are very valid reasons for appreciating Morrowind gameplay over Oblivion. (I keep thinking of badly dumbed down enchanting clothing is in Oblivion when compared to Morrowind.) --Wrye 01:32, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
And I would add: Ninja Modders! They hide in the shadows for years at a time, release something amazing with no warning, then vanish mysteriously for years... until the next time! An example might be Ren, but there are others. --Kateri
- Stealth Modders might be better. I think I need more examples. --Wrye 01:32, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
Notaku - Someone who is diametrically opposed to any anime/manga based mods for no discernible logical reason. --Scanti
- Well they're objecting because it's xeno-lore. (New term.) And if Notaku were included, then how about people who object to inclusion of LOTR lore? Or Diablo? Or Legend of Zelda? Or Soul-Caliber? Or Halo? Or Star Trek? Or Portal?
- The term is clever, but there's too many variants. Maybe just say "xeno-lorephobes"? --Wrye 01:32, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
BTW, love Goldfish modder - might need a correlate for OBSE fanatics. SkyMall modders? Oblivophiles? OBSExtendophiles (almost as bad as Organist )? Gadget modder? --Haama
- I think the idea here is the same as what I'm calling "Meta-Modders". --Wrye 00:49, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
Oh, and perhaps also OCD/Worriers/Detail-oriented... Their games run perfectly except for one iddy biddy thing that most people overlook, like CTD upon exit, or a tiny bush in the Jerrall Mountains is hovering a foot above the ground. I'm not saying their notations are worthless or invalid, this is not a critique on those kinds of people; I think they are either trying to be helpful or they are just worried they will destroy their game with a slightly incorrect load order.
This reminds me of my grandma who was so scared to push the ON button on the computer because she thought she would break it somehow! ( Gotta love 'em. ) --finniksa
- Hmmm. --Wrye 01:32, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
Old Hat Inventors
How about a term for someone that posts a really old idea as a new idea on the forums like the person that posted they thought it would be cool to make mods that were Morrowind based. Nobody thought of that idea before --Bonk
- Done. Old Hatters. --Wrye 00:40, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
"R&D" (Research and Development): Some modders do not primary mod to create mods which are played, but to explore the possibilities of modding, expand them even by inventing or discovering new techniques and tools, or putting together proof of concepts. --bg2408
- Tinkerer, in fact, is how I would generally label myself. --DragoonWraith
- Done. Meta-Modders. --Wrye 00:48, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
Sisyphus' Mod List
Re Ten for Lifers: Or because they keep try new mods that require one to start a new game. i know it's covered with whole starting new character idea i just wanted to specify --freakydoo
- Done Sisyphus' Mod List --Wrye 22:58, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
From TES and Gestapo. The dreaded secret police that forces people to download install and play each and every mod ever released. The TEStapo doesn't exist, but many trolls are convinced it does, and so they'll harass modders into changing or removing their mods. Can lead to tragic modderhood. --Gez 17:49, 5 November 2008 (EST)
- Hmmm... I don't get it. --Wrye
how about...: how about 'D/L Mindcontrol' instead?
The evil invisible power which forces players into downloading and running plugins they don't even like. In many cases D/L Mindcontrol comes paired with Bactus Trollingensis - a dangerous combination wich can cause bash ratings for the unwanted plugins on the afflicted's HDD.
Maybe a suggestion, no pun intended --Chairon De Celeste
Wanna-TC sounds good for wanna-be total conversion project founders who have no skills and never get to alpha. --thePostalDude
- Are there any TCs? Were there any for Morrowind? There are some major, huge mods out (your Sovvm, plus several for Morrowind), but those end up being expansions rather than TCs. There's just not as much need to do TCs these days, and its vastly more difficult. (Though w/o the EULA, I'm sure some people would attempt it.) --Wrye 01:32, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
- Wouldn't this fit under the title of "Big Plans Modder"?—Sam324 19:05, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
- My point is that the lifetime of a wannaTC is too short to be worth categorizing them. Making a TC would be just an insane amount of effort -- i.e. several years by a 10 person team working full time. Even the clueless newbies who think that they want to make a TC figure that out pretty quick and disappear. (At least, that's my understanding.) So, yeah, Big Plans modder is the more generic term that I use instead. --Wrye 21:28, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
Wikipedia Links Update
Wikipedia: Internet Addiction and Wikipedia: Fan Service can correctly be added using InterWiki links. The format is
[[Wikipedia:Internet Addiction|Wikipedia: Internet Addiction]]
—Sam324 18:49, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
- Long discussion about using interwiki links, but there doesn't seem to be a style consensus at the end, so I'm sticking with my practice, which is to not use them. (My reasoning being that interwiki links should only be used to point to sites that are closely associated with UESP. And there are no sites closely associated with UESP. :)) --Wrye 21:24, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
There's a thread in the Morrowind Mods Forum lamenting the lack of non-Xeno-Lore, non-Gaudjit mods around (particularly for clothing) - is that just a Lorist's natural reaction to Xeno-Lore, or is it something else ("Kids these days..." sort of thing)? Alphax 23:12, 5 January 2009 (EST)
- I think that it's just a natural reaction to going shopping for some reasonable clothes and finding nothing but halloween costumes. I haven't seen enough of that sort of complaint to count it as a trend though. --Wrye 20:11, 29 January 2009 (EST)
Do you think that the game's graphics limitations would fit under Consolitis? E.G. No PhysX, DX10, or high-res textures in certain console-designed games.—Moonraker0 15:23, 29 January 2009 (EST)
- Well, yeah. Another symptom. (I'm not goint to list all symptoms or it would be a very long entry.) --Wrye 20:00, 29 January 2009 (EST)
What exactly counts as xenolore? For example if the next game is set several hundred years from now but the tech level stays the same would it be xenolore if a modder who was (understandably in my opinion) annoyed by the fact that that's pretty unrealistic (they'd probably at least have primitive firearms by that point with the easy access to alchemy equipment charcoal, horses (if I remember correctly saltpeter can be found at the bottom of manure piles) and volcanos (for sulfur) and all the people experimenting with apparatus (Hmm. What would fire salts do in gunpowder?). Even if they don't though they'd almost definitely have chariots) and adds something(s) s/he came up with on his/her own rather than took from something else? Is that covered by xenolore? Is it a lore breach? A lore patch to fix the inconsistency? None of those?--Ghurhak gro-Demril or TAOYes? 19:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC)