User talk:The Silencer

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I speak the truth, if you don't like it that's your problem.

2012/1: March to April
2012/2: May to December
2013/1: January to June
2013/2: July to December
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Choco chip cookie.png I have two items of nourishment:)

Spell IDs[edit]

Regarding Mysticism Spells page - I saw you reverted my revision regarding the wrong ID of the spell. What led me to believe the names listed on the page are actually IDs is that for almost all spells, Name == ID holds true. Do you think it would be a good idea to add the ID in braces for spells that have an ID != name? (or use an asterisk, you get the idea) Scrawl (talk) 00:54, 5 January 2014 (GMT)

It may be, certainly Skyrim and Oblivion have the ids listed. The problem might be that the vast majority of them (like most ids in Morrowind) are simply the name in lowercase. Maybe its best asked on the talk page of the Spells page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:06, 5 January 2014 (GMT)
Actually IDs in morrowind are not case sensitive, so you could say the vast majority of spells have an ID equal to the name.Scrawl (talk) 21:36, 5 January 2014 (GMT)


Hey there Silencer, hope you are well! :)

I have real life things keeping me busy here for the next week. If you are able, could you throw up a thing or two on the SMPs (Facebook, Twitter - do you have G+ access?) in my absence? It would be much appreciated by our legions of fans! (They love us, they really love us!) If you can, please feel free! And if not, that's okay, too. Thanks in advance and drop me an email if you need anything! -- Avron the S'wit (talk) 18:44, 8 January 2014 (GMT)

Sure, I'll feed their addiction. Just need some ideas. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:13, 8 January 2014 (GMT)


Since Helenaannevalentine retired in August there has been no Project Leader (not active at any rate) for the project, since you're down as Project Advisor do you want to step up of offer it around, i'm not particularly interested but after some confusion I thought it best to find someone to run the project. I plan on contributing (images and wiki-work) but i'm not brilliant at writing articles, but i'll volunteer if for some reason you don't want it (or anyone else does, since I was going to offer it up on the project's talk page). --Kiz(email - talk) 16:31, 29 January 2014 (GMT)

I suppose I could, place pages are my specialty, and there isn't really anyone else there as a leader. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:23, 4 February 2014 (GMT)

Character Templates[edit]

I stand corrected on the edit for Shivering:Brithaur (person); but something occasionally weird is going on with the template parsing on this wiki - at least in Chrome. Ref/Base IDs get prefixed with unparsed template code. In the future I'll ignore it - but someone should probably investigate. My apologies for posting this on your talk page - as I realize this is probably better to post on the forums; however - the site refuses to send me the activation email. Digital Utopia (talk) 18:30, 3 February 2014 (GMT)

To me that sounds like an internal caching problem that purging should cure. Hard to be sure with the problem gone, though. --Alfwyn (talk) 18:41, 3 February 2014 (GMT)
Just to note: I had this problem earlier with mobile Chrome, purging the page didn't fix it, but it seems sporadic. Desktop Chrome appears (at first glance) unaffected. Though I see no difference in the edit shown and those IDs appear fine, desktop and mobile. --Kiz(email - talk) 19:04, 3 February 2014 (GMT)
Sporadic seems to be accurate. Clearing the cache will allow the server/wiki software another go at parsing/generating the page - but that doesn't do anything to fix the root cause. It seems doubtful that it's browser dependent, as it's not the browser's job to parse the wiki markup. So if wiki markup is "leaking" into the (HTML) page source, then somewhere server-side, there's an occasional hiccup.Digital Utopia (talk) 01:21, 5 February 2014 (GMT)
I found the problem. An update from just before Christmas never got pushed to the mobile servers, so anyone accessing those would see the wiki code. It's been fixed now. Robin Hood  (talk) 02:22, 5 February 2014 (GMT)
Currently seeing this issue on desktop Example. Did some investigating - and found something curious. Clearing cache didn't do anything on Chrome - so I tried it out on Firefox, and it displayed fine. Until I logged in that is. When I logged in, I got the same result as I'm currently seeing in Chrome. So, maybe there's something odd going on with my account? Could it be the result of not getting around to finishing up my user page? I managed to get Firefox to return back to the correct display once, after clearing cache/cookies, but since then it's been stuck - as is Chrome, on the improperly displayed page. At any rate - I hope this helps to get to the bottom of it. Digital Utopia (talk) 01:38, 7 February 2014 (GMT)
Yeah, that's the problem I was seeing yesterday on mobile, and I fixed it. I'm noticing that on purging the page, the problem is showing up again, but I've confirmed that my fix is in place, so it may be caching on our end that's causing the issue. I'll talk to Dave about it. Robin Hood  (talk) 03:14, 7 February 2014 (GMT)
Purging on content3 fixed that page for me. It looks like #explodeargs sometimes doesn't get parsed in Template:IDs2, and the surrounding #sub chews up the start of it, but why it chews up so much on the RefID/BaseID line in the infobox I have no idea - {{#len:{{{sep}}}}} shouldn't be as long as that, it's just <BR> after all.
It's quite a challenge to dig through the wiki to find the info on your extensions, though I must admit it's there. What I still don't get is why the "Added by" table row from Template:NPC Summary doesn't show up in the NPC infobox - is that what the <cleantable> tag does? --◄mendel► (talk) 03:20, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

() I'm pretty sure the #explodeargs issue is just a case of it not having been rolled out on mobile originally, and now our memcached server probably has cached copies of it surfacing at random. I've asked the site owner to restart memcached, just so that we can rule that in or out as a cause. The template itself has been working fine (at least that I'm aware of) until just recently, so it seems unlikely that there's anything specific to the template, though we shouldn't rule it out completely.

As to your other question, <cleantable> is supposed to clean out rows where there's no useful data (e.g., a header cell with an empty data cell after it). That said, there are a few quirks/bugs to it, and the creator has left the site, so sometimes we have to work around those. So, if the "Added by" is empty and it's not appearing, that's expected behaviour; if it's being removed on a page where it actually was added by a mod, please let us know which page it's occurring on, so we can investigate. Robin Hood  (talk) 04:43, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

I agree, the template code looks ok. The cleantable tab is also working as intended, it's just surprising at first to see wikicode "disappear". It's a neat hack, though. Thank you for your answer. --◄mendel► (talk) 05:22, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

Perfect touch[edit]

You have done this on skyrim:pickpocket page: (Undo revision 1277830 by (talk) no, this list is potentially endless so there will be none) However, it was not a list, but a correction of a previously existing note: "Perfect Touch does not work on NPCs who wear unobtainable clothing, such as Astrid and Ulfric Stormcloak." This note is missing the fact that PT perk does not work BOTH for non-playable clothing AND essential NPC. (And Ulfric's clothing can be obtained if he is killed later in the game, actually.) Examples given by me were not a list, list is indeed very long, and maybe there should be no examples at all, but the fact of essential npc's immunity should be there, I think. Please, give it some consideration. Sergio Morozov (talk) 05:11, 13 February 2014 (GMT)

I've readded the part on being essential and removed the mention of Astrid and Ulfric. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:38, 13 February 2014 (GMT)
OKay =] Sergio Morozov (talk) 19:00, 13 February 2014 (GMT)

Sorry about that[edit]

I'm pretty new at this, obviously, so not always sure where to put my questions. Thanks. Kellynne (talk) 01:50, 14 February 2014 (GMT)

No problem. You can start a new section on the non-archived talk page if you need to. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:52, 14 February 2014 (GMT)

Heavy Armor XP[edit]

The Heavy XP gain is based on the number of heavy items worn, and the unmitigated damage that a blow would cause even if armor and enchantments reduce the amount of actual damage the player receives. I tested this in detail, wearing unaltered an iron armor complete set while being attacked by a giant garnered no more XP than a legendary iron set with heavy armor enchants. The XP is not related to the damage that a player takes to their health, rather to the potential damage that a successful enemy blow would cause if they were wearing no armor at all.

The net result is that a blow that would cause 400 damage receives the same XP regardless of the actual damage that the player receives to their health.

Basic set plus giant strike = XP Legendary set plus giant strike = Same XP as above

I was really surprised to discover this because the way the wiki currently reads the amount of XP is related to the amount of lost health. This is incorrect. It is worth testing yourself. — Unsigned comment by MyBreton (talkcontribs) at 16:52 on 22 February 2014

What's your point? I only removed the advice on where to best farm damage, as that will never always be true and is pov. The only thing I did was remove the very basic information that having better defense means you can take on stronger enemies; thats a basic gaming standard true across almost every single game where you can equip armor. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:04, 22 February 2014 (GMT)
The way the page reads it make it sound like there is an advantage to use the lower quality armor to lose more health. The footnote on the Leveing page makes good sense. "Raw damage" refers to the damage before armor is taken into account. We should use the same language to better clarify the Heavy Armor and Light Armor pages.
To your point about using stonger items, this is not always the case in Skyrim, for instance using a legendary Dragonbone sword and 4 One handed enchants will garner no more experience than a plane old Dragonbone sword and no skill enchants. To level weapons faster it actually better to use their vanilla version. MyBreton (talk) 17:15, 22 February 2014 (GMT)
If the page reads elsewhere that there is an advantage the change it, I changed what you added to "The armor you wear does not impact skill gains." in the Gaining Skill XP section, so what you are saying to me is irrelevant. We're talking defense here not attack, if it were different then it would get some sort of note but its not for defense, your argument about attack is invalid in this context, especially as a note is on the One-handed page about that situation. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:21, 22 February 2014 (GMT)


Thanks. I couldn't work out where I was going wrong :) --Jimeee (talk) 17:24, 24 February 2014 (GMT)

Literally one character, but its a new thing to us all, still took me a few minutes to see that was all was wrong. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:26, 24 February 2014 (GMT)
Yeah, I was basically doing "monkey see, monkey do" based on what you did on Online:A Hypothetical Treachery, but I'll know for future. --Jimeee (talk) 17:30, 24 February 2014 (GMT)
Oh wow, we've actually started using labelled section transclusion? We've had it sitting around for so long, pretty much unused. I'll be curious to see how we find it in the long run. Robin Hood  (talk) 23:50, 24 February 2014 (GMT)

Save Values?[edit]

This is for references, correct? If so, it should probably go on the book article instead. The lore page is for an in-universe item. —Legoless (talk) 23:53, 24 February 2014 (GMT)

I'm trying to get the reference to work, when I input the cite book with the book version it displays a non formatted link ([[Book:The Daggerfall Chronicles|]]). As you can see I tried using a book link in the title parameter so it would autolink to the book page. The values already exist on the Book page. There is a slight difference in this and the versions for Lord of Souls and The Infernal City were they are redirects and take any requested values from the book page itself. And I just figured out why, its Books. Anyway, I'd still like to see it work so it can be reference more easily. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:03, 25 February 2014 (GMT)
But it still linked to the Lore page. Looks like the problem was using "Book" instead of "Books" - I just made the same mistake on dev. I supplied the ns parameter, seems to work. --Alfwyn (talk) 17:20, 25 February 2014 (GMT)

Question about achievements link[edit]

I recently started Online:Achievements and I noticed that you did some cleanup on it. I've edited infrequently in the past and so I'm unfamiliar with how things are supposed to go on UESP (like the fact that placeholders apparently shouldn't be used), and I was wondering why the listing of achievements that I put in the Incomplete tag was removed. I had hoped that adding the link would be beneficial to other users, creating an easy reference that they could use to improve the page, including those who did not play the game in any of the betas. The only thing that you wrote in the edit summary was "Inappropriate", so I don't understand why it was removed. Is it because it's better suited for the article's talk page? Is there some taboo against linking to other reference sites? I'd like to understand the reasoning behind this so that I know what the expectations for UESP are. -Thunderforge (talk) 16:06, 3 March 2014 (GMT)

Its inappropriate in two ways. ESOhead is another form of a wiki (though more just the technical side), and we should not be sending people there for information from our articles, especially not to copy it and place it here. It is up to our users to find the information and corroborate it themselves before adding it to the wiki. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 16:15, 3 March 2014 (GMT)
Alright, thanks. I definitely meant it in good faith as a way to improve the pages quickly. -Thunderforge (talk) 16:25, 3 March 2014 (GMT)

Redirect speedy deletions[edit]

According to the Deletion Policy, I don't think those redirects you've put up for deletion qualify for speedy deletion. Robin Hood  (talk) 06:18, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

Any specific ones? The talk page redirects should all have been deleted at the time, then there are a couple that are leftovers after people didn't know where to start them so made them in an existing namespace, and then a few from misnamed articles that were moved shortly afterwards. Any that were moved were moved a long time ago now and any in-use external links can reasonably be expected to have been updated. Most of the pages that could potentially be controversial were discussed and agreed to be deleted after a while (such as Lore:Tamriel (continent)). Of course we must take care to consider external links being broken, but except for the one example these are all small articles that have very little risk of being linked to anymore. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:08, 7 March 2014 (GMT)
Battlespire:Screen Shots may be externally linked to, it's pretty ancient. —Legoless (talk) 20:10, 7 March 2014 (GMT)
When an entire namespace was moved redirects were left for a year. 6 months should be long enough for one page that doesn't really have much impact on anything or is all that important. What we must not do is get in the thinking that pages should be kept because an uncontrolled external site has linked to it, we have enough redirects as it is. Our search still works for those that have an interest in finding something. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:17, 7 March 2014 (GMT)
I agree with your thinking on external links, though I know not everyone feels that way. I remember a discussion of this some time ago, and Wrye, at the very least, was strongly advocating to keep redirects if they were linked to externally.
As for the speedies, I was mostly looking at the talk page ones, since many of them are intentional cross-namespace redirects. That means they're not the result of a typo, they're not broken, they're not in mainspace, and they're not image redirects. I suppose they could be considered maintenance deletions (personally, I consider almost any orphaned redirect that's not a spelling variant or similar to be a trivial deletion), but since they were created deliberately, my feeling is that we should probably give them their full week as proposed deletions. I'm not strongly attached to that position, though, just trying to follow the rules. :) Robin Hood  (talk) 22:50, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

Just a comment on RH's first point: Wrye, his sole objection of any substance was that it meant links in his usermanuals for his file downloads where broken. Which shouldn't be the case for any of these, just to let you know. --Kiz(email - talk) 22:54, 7 March 2014 (GMT)


Ah, thanks for letting me know, I'll keep that in mind for next time. And maybe the orrery picture can be used for its future lore page or quest page perhaps. NovaNovik (talk) 14:59, 7 April 2014 (GMT)NovaNovik

Hats, Helmets and Circlets[edit]

With regard to your revert here. Helmets and Circlets occupy one and the same equipment slot, no? The current listing, with Circlets separate from Helmets wrongly implies that more than four pieces with that enchantment can be equipped.

I don't really know what you meant with "Hats are Online". There are Hats as well as Helmets and Circlets in the single-player campaign as well, I merely added Hats for completeness' sake. Nevertheless, they all occupy the same equipment slot, so even if we disregard Hats, my point with regard to Circlets and Helmets occupying the same equipment slot still stands. I'm not entirely sure why you reverted. -- 20:15, 7 April 2014 (GMT)

Helmets and circlets are not the same thing, especially concerning enchanting where items are split into more than just the six pieces of equipment you can generally wear. Hats are the name for a category of equipment in ESO, the same section is Hoods in Skyrim. I assumed you were adding the Hats as a misplaced edit on a Skyrim page rather than an Online page. Now that you bring it up again, I don't recall such a list on any other page of the same type, so it may need removed for consistency. Also, see the bugs on that page to see that helmets and circlets can be worn together. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:25, 7 April 2014 (GMT)
Skyrim:Fortify Smithing contains a list of enchantable items as well. As far as bugs, I'd argue that bugs are not canonical and exploits involving bugs shouldn't influence the main content of articles. Anyway, I see that you're not interested in any input, so have it your way. Bye. -- 00:58, 8 April 2014 (GMT)
Thankyou for informing me of my intentions, it makes it much easier than having to form some of my own. You asked for an explanation of my edit and I gave you one, if you wish to debate a change on how things are presented you can ask on the talk page of the article, I am not the sole arbiter of how pages are displayed and your edit may very well be redone if you consider and show my reasoning to be wrong. By running of you show that it is you that is not open to debate, I will be here if you decide to return and contribute a little more constructively. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:04, 8 April 2014 (GMT)
If I might just add something - I think's intention was to note that the enchantment can be applied to all types of "headgear" - including helmets, circlets, hats and hoods. While light armor hats are in ESO, I think he may have been referring to the clothing hats in Skyrim, which can indeed be enchanted. Similarly, gauntlets, gloves and bracers can have the enchantment applied to them - but these all would come under the banner of "handgear". While the "Items to Enchant" header isn't on all the enchanting pages, personally I think it is of benefit to readers - provided its standardized across all of them. A catch-all term can be used to avoid confusion. Something like:
The <enchant name> effect can be applied to the following items:
  • Headgear (Including helmets, circlets, hats and hoods)
  • Handgear (Including gauntlets, gloves and bracers)
  • Necklaces
  • Rings
Just some thoughts. --Jimeee (talk) 09:32, 8 April 2014 (GMT)

removal of occupants & ores[edit]

Hi Silencer,

I've noted that occupants is for enemies only, and I'm just updating this page:Stendarr's Beacon and noticed that it had occupants completed so I've removed them as Vigilants aren't enemies. I've also removed the Ore values from the header as they aren't in an interior, but I just wanted to confirm both of these are correct. — Unsigned comment by Biffa (talkcontribs) at 00:22 on 10 April 2014

Yes, as a wholly exterior zone it has no internal ore veins. A nice simple rule that won't lead to any confusion. I should get back to working on the project page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:27, 10 April 2014 (GMT)
Yep that I can understand and comply with for both ores and occupants. Biffa (talk) 15:32, 11 April 2014 (GMT)


I assume this "fast travel" thing is about the fast travel loading screen time? Is there a formula in the Oblivion data files regarding the fast travel time (i.e. for every X point(s) of Speed gotten, fast travel is reduced by Y second(s)?)

It does seem odd how speed affects loading time. (certainly beats me). DGAny Questions? 19:34, 10 April 2014 (GMT)

That page has nothing to do with loading times, those are entirely beyond the control of the game. The page is concerned with the speed of travel in the game. Fast traveling consumes time, eg Anvil to the Imperial City takes 8 hours at 50 speed, but only 6 hours at 80 speed (times are completely made up but should show how it works). The same thing applies to horses; fast traveling on a horse takes less in game time than fast traveling while on foot. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:40, 10 April 2014 (GMT)
So it's just that having a higher speed stat gets there at a quicker time; it won't make the loading screen pass in a femtosecond? DGAny Questions? 19:45, 10 April 2014 (GMT)
Correct. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:48, 10 April 2014 (GMT)


I'm trying to transclude Online:Loriasel Tablet, Entry 1 and Entry 2 from Lore:Loriasel Tablet Notes, but it hates me. For some reason, Entry 3 works? Any ideas where I'm going wrong? --Jimeee (talk) 16:19, 17 April 2014 (GMT)

I took a look at it; you accidentally started the section for Entry 2 with 'part1' instead of 'part2'. So you had two part1 starts and zero part2 starts. -- Hargrimm(T) 16:49, 17 April 2014 (GMT)
Hmmm, it seems I'm an idiot. Thanks! --Jimeee (talk) 17:02, 17 April 2014 (GMT)

Staff of Magnus[edit]

Regarding your reason for undoing my edit, I think you misunderstood something. I'm on Xbox 360 and didn't abuse anything to repeat a quest. Aftershock is a repeating Radiant quest that can be started multiple times on any platform. I also tried simply waiting for the area to respawn (as long as 60 days) and there was no staff in the ash pile. I've thoroughly tested many combinations of waiting, starting and completing Aftershock, and starting it seems to be the trigger. I'll leave it up to you whether to add my info back or not. 12:56, 27 April 2014 (GMT)

I see now. I misread it as the quest that takes you to Labyrinthine, which would make some sense at least. Why Aftershock does it is odd, but obviously at that stage the location can be accessed again. I will redo your edit. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 13:41, 27 April 2014 (GMT)


We should hold off on adding abouts to pages, because NPCs in ESO have the tendency to drop or add parts of the name when appearing in different areas. An NPC in one area might have a last name, and then appear as a projection or a vision during another quest without the last name, despite being the same NPC. Jeancey (talk) 04:19, 12 May 2014 (GMT)

Alright. They'll be turned into redirects once known right? Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:53, 12 May 2014 (GMT)
Of course. Just need a good way to figure out which name is either first or used most often. The main ones I'm thinking of right now are a few Khajiit's in reaper's march who were referred with -ma attached and unattached to their name. Jeancey (talk) 11:10, 12 May 2014 (GMT)
Shouldn't we go with the full name as their main page, so long as its displayed ingame at some point of course. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:14, 12 May 2014 (GMT)

Letter from Tillrani[edit]

Ack, sorry about that and thanks for moving it. -- Valadez   Talk  Contributions  21:48, 16 May 2014 (GMT)


Good day, Silencer

I see that you undid my edit on Coldharbour based upon the rationale that it is given that Daedra inhabit Coldharbour as a plane of Oblivion, but my concern is that new users, those who want just quick information, or those not knowledgeable about the world of the Elder Scrolls would be unaware of this. The article does not mention anything about the Dremora that service Molag Bal or that Aurorans are (or used to be, depending on how the events of ESO play out) trapped inside his realm. I refferenced a book that tells us about this and could reference more (I planned to edit the page today) to include the name of one Dremora Clan that services Molag Bal (being the Deathbringers). I also believe that the last sentence of the first paragraph is misleading if you say that Daedra inhabiting the planes of Oblivion being fact as it both gives an exception to Coldharbour and implies that only Soul Shrivens inhabit the realm. "As opposed to other realms of Oblivion, Coldharbour is largely lifeless, instead filled with souls of the dead, called Soul Shriven, where they are tormented for eternity." I understand that nothing below absolute certainty should be used, but books found in ESO say otherwise about this Deathbringer Clan, and another book (cannot remember where or how, but talked about Draedroth [the lizard-like Daedra] also inhabiting the realm) talks about Draedroth being formed within Coldharbour as part of their re-forming process that Daedra go through when they die.

Thank you for reading, please reply! Rencini (talk) 12:46, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

A lot of Daedra inhabit Coldharbour. There's no point being so specific about clans and such until we have all the information. I would suggest changing the wording of the Soul Shriven sentence to imply they dwell there along with the Daedra, but otherwise holding off on the details for now. —Legoless (talk) 13:52, 22 May 2014 (GMT)
Incomplete info is not good on any lore article, the only thing worse is incorrect info. This is part of the reasoning behind locking page creation in lore when new games come out, people rush to add each bit of information they find as they find it, resulting in an incoherent page with conflicting statements. The restrictions are less harsh in the gamespaces (Online in this case), so adding info to the ON:Coldharbour page is fine as it will get more attention and will be quickly changed by someone who has found alternate sources. On the topic of Daedra, types of Daedra are only notable if they are not associated with the realm's Prince, but Daedra clans are a different thing (as far as see anyway). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:06, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

"A" vs. "An"[edit]

If we're going by American English, "An historic" is incorrect. [1] ThuumofReason (talk) 23:35, 30 May 2014 (GMT)

An historic is not incorrect in American English. That link shows nothing to support an alternative argument. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:38, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
Have another then. There's no "argument" because there's nothing to argue. This is a basic grammatical rule, you use "an" when the first phonetic sound is a vowel and "a" when the first sound is a consonant. ThuumofReason (talk) 23:41, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
That link says it is more logical and does not say that it is wrong to use 'an'. In fact it supports its usage as Bethesda has a history of using old forms of words and the grammar associated with them. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:44, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
Um, just because something is older/less common, it doesn't mean it's incorrect. According to the Oxford source people used to pronounce "historical" as "istorical" in the 18th-19th century, hence the "an", and in this context Bethesda was emulating a medieval-esque writing style; it should be expected that older rules and conventions are used. —<({Quill-Tail>> 23:53, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
Hence the addition of the sic template to let people know not to change it from the older English dialect to the more commonly-used modern form. ThuumofReason (talk) 23:57, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
I've already fought a battle in having a sic tag incorrectly used for a correct word, I'm not interested in fighting that battle again so you can read over it and see the reasons why that reasoning is flawed; Lore_talk:The_Bear_of_Markarth. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:01, 31 May 2014 (GMT)

() I wasn't aware that there was already a discussion on the matter. If the community agrees that outdated linguistic patterns don't require sic tags, I'm okay with that, but I wish you had explained that to me in the first place. I kind of thought you were just being obstinate, I didn't realize you actually had something to support your position with. Also, I take issue with your assertion that my reasoning is "flawed". Given that Jeancey made the same assumption I did independently, I don't think it's unreasonable to interpret that template in multiple ways. If the community supports a decision, that's one thing, but could you maybe tell me that in a way that doesn't make it sound like you're talking down to me? ThuumofReason (talk) 00:29, 31 May 2014 (GMT)

The wikipedia policy on sics smacks of interfering bureaucrats poking their noses where they shouldn't. If a UESP policy on sics was written I would argue for more sensible and intelligent rules. Anyone who uses the wikipedia definition should seriously consider revising their knowledge on the English language. That's how I feel about that 'policy' and anyone who uses it. I apologise for any offence given and my short shrift in referring you to the other conversation rather than explaining properly that the flaws lie in the 'policy', and I am obstinate. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 12:41, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
Thank you. ThuumofReason (talk) 13:01, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
Another option here is to create a "do not correct" template of some form (basically, {{Sic}} with different text) or just add HTML comments to discourage editors from "correcting" what they believe is a mistake. Robin Hood  (talk) 21:00, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
That is never a path I would go down. Highlighting correctly used words suggests that we don't trust the intelligence of our readers. Hidden HTML tags should only be used as a very last resort when dealing with words that keep getting changed, because then we can point to that and show why it is needed. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:19, 31 May 2014 (GMT)

Pets as Creatures[edit]

The Online:Pets page is supposed to document the items, not the creatures. The creature pages should be separate (e.g. Online:Mudcrab). —Legoless (talk) 21:00, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

It's an overview page of some creatures, same as passive creatures or undead. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:02, 2 June 2014 (GMT)
Not really. The creatures themselves don't have labels (apart from the Dwarven spider, but the creature name is different than the item). The "pets" are items that you activate to summon the creatures, which is where the section headers come from, i.e. there's an item called 'Pet Imgakin', but no creature with that name. Additionally, we have the page listed here. In the future we may want to replace the sections with a table. Are you under the impression that it's a creature page because of the images? —Legoless (talk) 21:14, 2 June 2014 (GMT)
Yes, the pictures, style, and prose of the sections is written as about the creatures, not an 'item' that summons a creature. You also wrote that Imgakin are visually different to monkeys but we don't have a page on Imgakin to that effect. It would help a lot if an opening paragraph detailing how to use said items to get a pet (e.g. keep them in your inventory, passive/active, how many at once). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:23, 2 June 2014 (GMT)
I could add some of those details now. A page for imgakin would be good too. —Legoless (talk) 21:48, 2 June 2014 (GMT)


Thank you, could you please also delete Orgnum Thras redirect page? 11:39, 11 June 2014 (GMT) (Phoenix_Neko)

Talk page redirects are generally useless so there is no issue over that. On the Orgnum page a short discussion took place that decided to keep the redirect so I see no reason to delete the page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:41, 11 June 2014 (GMT)
Well, the redirect is useless anymore. Yet, I'm surprised by your undo of my change at RPEH's talk page. As far as I can see, you did the upgrade of some link at the same talk page, so I thought it is okay. 11:43, 11 June 2014 (GMT)
Userpages should be left alone as much as possible, and changing the link on that particular page could lead to confusion. Unused redirects are not always useless, but you can propose it yourself if you can show that there is no use for it at all (use the {{Prod}} template because it has already been disputed). Of course if it does get deleted then the userpage link would have to be changed but that's another story. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:50, 11 June 2014 (GMT)
Thank you for clarification. Well, if I use {{Prod}} I think that'd be helluva talking, so I'd rather pass. I suck at negotiations, for my English is far from excellent. 12:16, 11 June 2014 (GMT)
I'm normally a big fan of getting rid of useless redirects, but looking at the discussion that's now on Lore talk:Orgnum, I'd say that that one should stay in. The "Thras" presumably came from somewhere, so unless it was purely a one-time user error when the page was created, someone might be looking for "Orgnum Thras", and even if they see Lore:Orgnum pop up in the search, it may not be clear that the two are indeed the same. Robin Hood  (talk) 13:59, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

Real world NPC names[edit]

I thought it was common to write down information about real world connections of NPC names in the "Notes" section as a curiosity. I recall seeing it earlier in other articles but I can't find an example now. Is this a new policy? Personally I thinks it is fun to see if a (assumed) fantasy name actually is a real name in another language/country. /Fredrik, Sweden. 20:36, 24 June 2014 (GMT)

There have been discussions over name terminology, and I think we've come down to only allowing this in case it's relevant to the character. The fact that a name is common in Sweden is hardly noteworthy, given that many of the names in Skyrim are Scandinavian names. An example of where it would be noteworthy is Vilkas and Farkas, which both mean wolf, which fits their lycanthropy ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 20:48, 24 June 2014 (GMT)
Yeah, of course. It makes sense. Actually the main reason for adding it from the beginning was that I think I've read somewhere that Christer has an additional meaning, namely that it can also mean "big and strong". This definitely does not fits Christer^^. Unfortunately I couldn't find a source other than Wikipedia. Thanks for your time and for contributing to UESP! /Fredrik — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 21:04 on 24 June 2014
Etymologies that are what the character is are acceptable (Farkas means wolf, and he's a werewolf). Etymologies that don't fit are not documented due to subjectivity in determining whether it was deliberate or not. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:15, 24 June 2014 (GMT)

Light Blue Regalia and Amiable Fanriene[edit]

Hello. Regarding the changes I made to the Orinthal, Dancer and Amiable Fanriene pages, I can understand you reverting my edits. I only made the changes to be consistent with the Sontaire and Tilse Areleth pages, where the clothing has been capitalized. The small section I removed on the Amiable Fanriene page didn't make grammatical sense to me: "He wears typical Mania outfit: a light blue regalia." and so I felt that it could be simplified. In addition (as far as I know) only two NPCs wear this outfit (Amiable Fanriene and the Dancer) so calling it a "typical Mania outfit" doesn't seem quite right. Perhaps: "He wears a vibrant Light Blue Regalia." would be more fitting? I look forward to hearing your thoughts. AquaticPossum (talk) 19:43, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

One of the worst types of thinking is 'one page does it so lets spread it everywhere else', it was so inherently wrong to cap the names of clothing that I couldn't even think of a logical reason to type in to the summary. While the exact type of clothing may be limited in scope, it fits the general Mania style of clothing so there's no reason not to mention it, though I accept the grammar could be improved. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:54, 27 June 2014 (GMT)
Items used to be capitalized as they appear in-game, but that was changed after Skyrim came out. Obviously some of the Shivering Isles articles weren't updated to reflect this. I agree that the wording on Amiable Fanriene's page was a bit clunky; hopefully this change is satisfactory. —Legoless (talk) 20:10, 27 June 2014 (GMT)
My apologies for not creating this section at the bottom of the page. Good to know about the practice of not displaying certain items exactly as they appear in-game, I'll bear that in mind for the future. The new wording sounds good to me. AquaticPossum (talk) 22:09, 27 June 2014 (GMT)
Just because they aren't capitalised doesn't mean it isn't correct. The items on their own page (i.e. the clothing page) shows the items name as seen in-game, but when using it in a sentence it is proper to not capitalize it, just as you wouldn't cap horses or bandits. The items are not displayed in a sentence in-game when you see them, and when items are they are capped properly (i.e. the way it is done here). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:28, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

Regarding Marker Icon vs Service Icon[edit]

I was just wondering your reasoning behind using a place link, description and marker icon for stalls in Royal Bazaar, and redirecting to a merchant. What I have been doing, eg for Port Hunding's Open Marketplace, is just naming the stall and its merchants and using the service icon (stalls' individual pages redirect to the Marketplace page). I'm not saying either way is necessarily better than the other, but at certain stalls there is more than one merchant, meaning redirecting to a merchant may not work, and some stalls do not have names. Also, by using Marker Icon, the icon appears fuzzy and on the left of the stall name, whereas the icon belongs to the merchant (and not their stall). Service Icon is much crisper and also links to the correct vendor page. (See also Store Icons vs Vendor Icons at User:Enodoc#Store Types, as I think at some point we were discussing possibly splitting some Stores into different types.) --Enodoc (talk) 14:37, 1 July 2014 (GMT)

The redirects are being created so I thought it better to use them. Service Icon didn't work inside the description template so I used the marker one instead. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:53, 1 July 2014 (GMT)
Oh that's odd. Maybe it doesn't know how to #save a template? I'll have a play around and see what happens. --Enodoc (talk) 20:46, 1 July 2014 (GMT)
It seems that during the #save/#load process it does not fully parse the link. Perhaps the best thing to do then, to stop fuzzy icons appearing in the wrong places, would be to do {{Place Link}} followed by {{Service Icon}}.
In the example of Aralas' Arcane Implements, it would be {{Place Link|Aralas' Arcane Implements}} {{Service Icon|Mystic}} to give
I think this would be a tidier way to do it, particularly in the case of more than one merchant per store (the icons can all be lined up at the end). --Enodoc (talk) 13:05, 7 July 2014 (GMT)

The image i posted[edit]

I deleted it, i found it on google images and i didn't know there was any documentation required, so do i still need documentation if i deleted the image. — Unsigned comment by Wubonater (talkcontribs) at 22:31 on 10 July 2014

Not if you request an admin to delete the image itself, removing it from the page isn't enough if you do not want to use it. Post the {{Speed}} template on the file page to request deletion. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:35, 10 July 2014 (GMT)

i have a question[edit]

how do i Document an image, i have images of arena that the arena page can use, and if i took the picture do i have to document it — Unsigned comment by Wubonater (talkcontribs) at 09:48 on 11 July 2014 (GMT)

Proper documentation involves applying an appropriate license and attribution to the creator. In this case if you have taken the images ingame yourself, you merely need to select the license uespimage (under the "UESP Screenshots only" header) when uploading the image. Your username is automatically applied to the file in accredit you with that image. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:58, 12 July 2014 (GMT)


Just wanted to let you know that I've reverted your use of the {{bug}} template in the Stormhold namespace, which I've done before on account of it screwing with the layout and being of no practical use in the namespace. Since the game's NPCs have a single bug between them, there's no reason to apply irrelevant standards like superfluous bulletpoints and a plural heading over style. Thanks. —Legoless (talk) 02:58, 14 July 2014 (GMT)

Well thats just wrong, there is no reason why Stormhold should be exempt from the same style layout such as plural headers (which are a wiki standard not just UESP), and the bug format, which also serves to show the bug is confirmed or needs confirmation. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 03:01, 14 July 2014 (GMT)
As I said, superfluous bulletpoints and incorrect pluralisation of a single bug. No one is going to confirm the bug because no one plays Stormhold, so unless you want to test it out yourself I imagine you'd be dependent on either me or Krusty for confirmation - and since I added the bug, that's a no-no. The "bug format" is for games that require a list layout, and the confirmation requirement was brought about by the huge variance of play in the sandbox games, which is kind of ridiculous to impose on a simple Java mobile game. Those sections are not lists, they are documentation of a single bug written in prose. —Legoless (talk) 03:08, 14 July 2014 (GMT)
Again your concerns are invalid, the use of the nobullet parameter would restore the layout you wish to see, and the header format isn't questionable, all headers should be plural, be they for a single sentence or a single image, it really isn't up for debate unless you wish to rewrite the entire style layout. You say/suggest that Krusty has played the games, so a quick check with him to confirm the bug is all that is needed, and then even that issue is resolved. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 03:24, 14 July 2014 (GMT)


Stop hand.png Your personal attacks against Biffa are out of line. This kind of behavior has to stop, for the good of the Wiki. As a long standing contributor, you should have known this. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 00:53, 17 July 2014 (GMT)
Glad to see that another person has decided to read into a situation they know nothing about, thanks. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:58, 17 July 2014 (GMT)
You're really not making yourself look any better here. Play the victim all you like, but the fact remains that YOU were the one who started that confrontation, YOU were the one who broke the etiquette policy (in fact, you openly defied it), and YOU are consequently the one in the wrong here. Any outside observer (which both Dominus and I were) could clearly see that your comments were inappropriate. This warning is entirely justified, so just take it as a learning experience and we can all move on without this kind of thing happening again. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 01:04, 17 July 2014 (GMT)
This is completely unwarranted. How can you claim neutrality yet bring up a separate topic within that comment of your's, all while avoiding the issue at hand. I barely touched breaking the etiquette policy, while Biffa clearly broke it saying I 'gone out of your way to make thing unpleasant for me on this site.' Warning me 'for the good of the wiki' when I was trying to engage an editor and improve their clearly flawed methods is so ironic it hurts. Get back to me when you can contribute to the issue of Biffa's testing methods. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:49, 17 July 2014 (GMT)


Per this, can you point me towards where this was standardised? As far as I can tell it hasn't been fully implemented (see Skyrim:Dawnguard Places for example), and I don't see the point in mislabelling places for the sake of having an icon. —Legoless (talk) 17:31, 4 August 2014 (GMT)

The template was created for the express purposes of pages like those ones. It is used for places that have a type but lack an icon, where others of the same type have an icon. A handful of the places on the Dawnguard page are worldspaces, for which there is no icon. As a repetitively new addition (January '13), being introduced between games it isn't surprising that many pages don't have it yet. The template does not mislabel anything, when used in the place link template it indicates what type of building it is, not that it has an icon on the map. This template was made after the Place Link template was changed from deriving the icon directly from the saved value for the type, and instead taking the marker id value (which these pages lack), so in essence there was no outward change, it is simply a continuation of how things were done. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:48, 4 August 2014 (GMT)


That block reason is a joke, at what point was I intimidating, or are you just afraid to answer my questions? Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:48, 5 August 2014 (GMT)


Stop x.png This IP address has been blocked from editing UESPWiki for one week for persistent abuse of other editors. Your attitude is nothing short of toxic at this point, and your contributions have become disruptive. If you wish to appeal the block, you may make your request on your talk page, which you can still edit even while being blocked. eshetalk 22:50, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

As a side note, if you continue to abuse other editors using the privilege of editing your talk page, that right can be removed as well. Please take this time to reconsider your attitude toward other members of this community. eshetalk 22:51, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

You don't know the meaning of abuse of power do you? Of course I appeal this nonsense on the grounds that you don't know what you are doing. You and the other administrators have deliberately lied in my appeal over my warning, have willingly broken policies to support your lies, and generally have no idea what you are doing. What abuse have I committed now? Do you think I would just lie down and let you misuse your administrative tools? Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:54, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
Block and run Eshe, block and run. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:00, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
I've been following the discussion at the Admin Noticeboard, and you have persisted in name-calling the administrators, accusing them of being delusional, liars, and so forth. Normally I'd be inclined to say that they should respond in kind, but they have consistently been more reasonable with you than you have been with them. You keep acting like they have committed some horrible injustice against you, yet the evidence for their case against you is plastered all on the admin noticeboard, and you have escalated this to the point where you are figuratively foaming at the mouth and getting yourself blocked for blatant personal attacks on this site's staff. You seem like a great editor, and it would be a shame to lose you, but you have either completely missed the entire point of that previous discussion or completely ignored it. You received your warning for your attitude, the way you have been attacking people with your comments (it's not subtle), and now you continue doing the same thing against the administrators in some naive attempt to do what? Do you not understand what you are doing or do you just not care? ∬(RisingDusk)dxdy 23:03, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
If the truth were spoken there would be no lies. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:16, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

(edit conflict) It's unfortunate that it's come to this. For three weeks, I haven't seen any more misbehavior on your part, and I was really hoping that you had cooled down and that we could all move past this. Like elliot before you, you've responded to a singular, relatively minor incident by actively transforming it into a much larger one that necessitates action. Given that the incident that got elliot banned involved you, I would have thought you'd be able to see the parallels between your two situations. Maybe you did and you just don't care, since you were the only one pushing for your rights to be removed. The funny thing is, if you hadn't revived that discussion today, I would have been willing to forgive the things you said earlier as a moment of (admittedly extreme) passion. You're a good editor, yet you were willing to throw all that away over some misplaced sense of pride. I know you know better than this, but it really doesn't matter. You've got what you were after, so if you have any desire to return to editing in a week, you should refrain from any more jibes. "Unfortunate" is the only word I can think of to describe this episode. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 23:19, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

When I and my words are twisted and given false meanings I will defend myself, its a pity people choose to accept the lies rather than the truth. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:23, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
In order to avoid edit warring or angering Silencer, can the notice please read "This account ..." rather than "This IP address ..."? I didn't think it was tampering with the warning (It only made it a valid phrase), but Silencer considered it to be so. May I know why you reverted it Silencer? ~ Ad intellige (talk) 00:01, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
Silencer was correct in this case. His IP address has been blocked from editing, not just his account (I think that's how that works), and he is right that you're not supposed to mess with block messages, even for clarity's sake. It's kind of like how we don't fix typos in other users' posts. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 00:12, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
Note that due to The Silencer's response to Eshe with its myriad personal attacks, I have re-blocked him without the ability to edit his talk page. Those of you who wish to communicate further will have to do so by e-mail. For the time being, his ability to e-mail is also not blocked, so he can also contact anyone he feels he needs to by e-mail. If that becomes problematic, please post here and that setting can be changed. Robin Hood  (talk) 00:57, 6 August 2014 (GMT)


The appeal to the block which I received by abuse of power.

Why do I need the ability to edit? Because even in a reduced role I am still the one cleaning up edits, keeping them inline with the style and policies of the wiki where others do not.

What pages? None specifically because the nature of my edits are mostly from the random pages link, cleaning up other edits, or following things such as new files and adding anything missing.

Examples? Again, the nature of my edits preclude being able to provide an example. Look at my contributions and you'll see no pattern.

Being unable to show anything specific doesn't help, but an example of the workload I bore would be the vast increase in unpatrolled edits in the last (almost) month from a rather small pool of around 10 a day left to anywhere between 20 and 50.

I may have called the admins involved liars, but I can and did prove it. Blocking me for stating the obvious and seeking answers and some integrity is hardly a fit reaction. A week is hardly a fit response to being called out on a lie. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:15, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

The "proof" you claim to offer in your personal attacks is not recognized as such by anybody else on the wiki, nor is the alleged abuse of power. Given the fact that your revival of 3-week old issues and needling of other editors (which can only be intentional on your part, judging by your mention of "burning bridges" in your edit summaries here and here), not to mention the fact that getting blocked was YOUR idea, I see no reason the block should be removed. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 23:40, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
Thank you for twisting my words. I said I would rather be blocked than warned, not that I wanted blocked, or that I agreed that I should be. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:46, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
Silencer, I recently emailed you questions that are related to this. I honestly want to know what your side of this story is. Perhaps you would be willing to share it in order to increase the chances of your appeal? I don't personally see any issue with the administrator actions, although I am admittedly biased because I issued the original warning. I feel that you have not provided enough proof, although perhaps I am just missing it. I can see Silencer's point. Although, if we are to go through with that, there is really no point in this appeal. After all, it would be a permanent block rather than a temporary one. If Silencer can provide proof in the forms of diffs, either publicly or privately, I will support the removal of the block. Until then, or if he is unable to prove it to my satisfaction, I think it should remain.
You are a great editor, and I honestly regret pulling the trigger and putting this all in motion. Was it necessary at the time? Yes, I believe it was. I do regret it honestly and would like to apologize for everything. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 23:57, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
I see no emails from you in my inbox, and why should I discuss anything with you when you didn't even feel the need to clear up any possible issues before starting this. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:03, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
Strange. It must have been put into your spam folder then. I told the software to send me a copy, and I have that copy. You have every right to refuse to discuss it with me. As my email not being received shows, even if I tried to clear up any issues (I did not contact you, but I did suggest that you both take a break and calm down) it wouldn't have made a difference. I was merely throwing the option out there. You have no obligation to follow through with that. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 00:08, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
So it is (I didn't see anyone else's mail in there though for those who might ask). If the date on it is correct (3rd August) then its a little late for that kind of question seeing as you'd given the warning over two weeks beforehand. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:19, 6 August 2014 (GMT)


While I did say it there, what relevance has that discussion to the recent one? Pity I wasn't invited to my own trial to learn how far back we'd go. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:20, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

You brought it up, not me. On Biffa's talk page, you provided a link accusing him of mocking you. That response was to your "defiling" post. Robin Hood  (talk) 00:53, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

Bug fixes are never guaranteed ???[edit]

Excuse me, but what exactly does this mean? Does this mean unofficial fixes may or may not work, depending on various conditions? Unlike Morrowind and Oblivion I don't have the time to concern myself much with Skyrims's internal processing (Creation Kit, Papyrus scripts etc.), but judging from the previous games, I assume most bugs can be fixed on the fly without starting a new game, or is Skyrim so much different than it's predecessors? And even If this was the case, I'm using the USKP v2.0.4a since I've started the second playthrough of the game, so bugs that are claimed to be fixed by even lower versions should no longer occur, right? And last I would also be interested in how the UESP defines a "game bug". Is a bug just a feature of the game or a certain quest which is defined, but for some reasons, does not work as intended? Or is a bug also an illogical game- or quest-feature (this is my definition of a bug, at least when it comes to computer games) e.g. contingents of hostile troops and equipment remaining after a hold was taken by one of the two waring sides? Since a couple of such "bugs" I've been submitting during the past months have already been removed, I would be interested in some enlightenment regarding this obscurity.--PLRDLF (talk) 22:59, 16 August 2014 (GMT)

It means that the fix is not guaranteed to fix it, even in the official patches. Some bugs are more inherent in the game and require more work even though the 'fix' appears to work. An easy example is the 'backwards flying dragons' that were the result of an attempted fix for something else, causing more problems than there were in the first place. There is no policy on what is and what isn't a bug for the site, its mostly subjective, though things like spelling mistakes and grammar in books is not considered a bug as they can easily happen in real life, whereas the USKP changes any it finds. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:19, 16 August 2014 (GMT)

Pointless edit[edit]

How is it a pointless edit to remove an underline within a link, which are supposed to be removed? Biffa (talk) 08:53, 17 August 2014 (GMT)

Underscores are not supposed to be removed, it is a choice for the user to use either. The majority of users will remove them when doing other things to the page, but an edit to remove them on its own serves no other purpose than to bump your edit count. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:04, 17 August 2014 (GMT)
While I agree that removing the underscores in a link is essentially pointless, I have seen other people (including me) make similar edits that have no real effect on the article, and may just be the result of low-grade OCD (in my case). According to the Links page, either form is fine for internal links, so undoing it is just as pointless, and both edits add unnecessary entries to the Recent Changes list. A friendly note on Biffa's talk page would have probably been a more appropriate action here, especially considering the recent history between the two of you. --Xyzzy Talk 05:17, 18 August 2014 (GMT)
Pointless edits are heavily discouraged across all wikis, to the extent that undoing them is the correct action. I'll thank you to know the correct response to them before saying the wrong thing. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:28, 18 August 2014 (GMT)
Per Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary, "Don't revert an edit because it is unnecessary — because it does not improve the article. For a reversion to be appropriate, the reverted edit must actually make the article worse." Robin Hood  (talk) 17:35, 18 August 2014 (GMT)
This is about pointless edits, and what to do when that happens, not the general thinking. Focused policies often have exceptions to the general rules. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:20, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

SRHRP Header standardization[edit]

Hey Silencer - Was wanting to standardize the headers in the Skyrim Houses pages, as they are pretty much all over the place. I posted this on the project discussion but was advised to double-check with you and Krusty (cc'd on this). I was hoping to start cleaning up some of the Houses, but wanted your input on headers before I do. I was proposing:

==Header 1, no italics, for main space, i.e., The White Phial, Bob's House==
===Header 2, no italics, for any zones===

Let me know your thoughts. --Beezer1029 (talk) 22:28, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

Not-so-blind Falmer?[edit]

I'm just curious where it says that the Falmer aren't completely blind. You're way more up on your Lore than I am, so I don't doubt the accuracy of your statement, but I'd always thought they were completely blind and I'm curious to read (or listen to, whatever) whatever it is that mentions that it's not total. Robin Hood  (talk) 01:08, 19 September 2014 (GMT)

Their Blindness value is only 80%, though lore (and the general lack of eyes) suggests they have total blindness. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 02:02, 19 September 2014 (GMT)
Ah, got it! Thanks. Robin Hood  (talk) 06:27, 19 September 2014 (GMT)

Regarding Civil War Forts[edit]

My apologies for "edit warring". My computer has been acting up and I thought it wasn't saving my edits. And I was merely putting on Fort Snowhawk what was already on Neugrad and Sungard(which i did not edit). Don't know how to do the verify on the edits. Also, didn't know you commented on my discussion topic because I had been waiting for a response for a week and no one said anything so I decided to edit the page myself. From what I can see, if I side with the Empire, forts in Imperial holds stay occupied by enemy factions, however forts in Stormcloak holds become occupied by Stormcloak troops. The only way to garrison Imperial soldiers is to conquer Stormcloak-controlled forts. The only exception is Fort Greymoor which has become correctly occupied by Imperial soldiers after defending the city of Whiterun. I do not know if the reverse is true (siding with the Stormcloaks/fighting the Empire). 22:11, 2 October 2014 (GMT)

No worries, but lets keep the comments all in one place now, on Fort Snowhawk's talk page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:25, 2 October 2014 (GMT)
I have since read and commented on Fort Snowhawk page. So let us continue the discussion. 22:32, 2 October 2014 (GMT)


I noticed Weye being considered a village, while it is definitely the house of Aelwin Merowald (without the UOP). I was wondering if the house can be integrated on that page, since both have the same name, because currently the house info is still on Aelwin's page (and his house is also incorrectly stated as "Weye's Farmhouse") ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 14:14, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

Weye includes both the inn and the house if I'm not mistaken. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:25, 6 October 2014 (GMT)
Yes, but I'm asking if the house info would be included on that page as a separate section ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 17:56, 6 October 2014 (GMT)
No, it would go on the house page, which would need created and disambiguated. My opinion on that would be to just add "Weye (house)" without moving "Weye". Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:04, 6 October 2014 (GMT)
Yes that occurred to me after I just posted. Weye should be moved to Weye (settlement) or something though ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 18:10, 6 October 2014 (GMT)
Not necessarily, as the settlement has more priority, and the opening sentence can easily be changed to explain the difference with a link, or the use of an about if the need is felt. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:14, 6 October 2014 (GMT)
Well it's easier to do it your way, I'll go ahead and create the Weye (house) page, and I'll move the current image and reupload one of both buildings ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 18:22, 6 October 2014 (GMT)


I removed that note saying: "She is a member of the bandit class, which determines the level of her skills." You came along, and, for starters, I noticed you had pressed the "undo" option and then pressed "save changes", which had undone my edit saying in the edit summary: "so are a lot of other things in the article". Tell me then: if by you saying there are a lot of other things in the article, then why are they not removed then? Pages need consistency. If pages had consistency, there would be a note on every NPC page saying: "<NPC name goes here> is a member of the <class name goes here>, which determines the level of his/her skills.". It isn't on every NPC page, so it is a little more than obvious it is something that he wiki lacks consistency of. Please could you explain why you had to undo my edit? DG#:)|

In my opinion, notes like that should be removed because I really don't think an NPCs class is worthy of a note. Also because it's not on all of the Skyrim NPCs' pages. Maybe it's there because Asta doesn't seem like a bandit therefore her class is a curiosity? I don't know for sure, but this is just my opinion. On another note, I don't think you meant to come across this way, but please, please, please watch the tone you use when writing a talk page message, especially regarding an undo. I can understand that it's frustrating sometimes, but please try and have a more friendly and positive tone so there aren't any unnecessary and completely avoidable conflicts. •WoahBro►talk 12:39, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
If my memory serves, the reason those lines exist is because of a discussion a while back regarding NPCs who have classes that are incongruous with their actual function, as we normally start NPC articles with (Name), a (race) (class). It's so the class can be noted in the article without describing the NPC misleadingly, so we don't end up calling Farkas a blacksmith or describe all the NPC's who use the Dremora class as dremora when they are not. --AN|L (talk) 14:31, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
Class is extremely relevant to an NPC, especially ones that are involved in combat. As such it is a requirement to have it mentioned in the description, but in some cases the class does not reconcile with the NPC without speculating or making unsubstantiated assumptions and so it was agreed that in those cases it could be removed from the main description and placed as a note (which made no assumptions or guesses but simply states facts). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:44, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
For anyone interested, the extensive discussion about this can be found here. --Xyzzy Talk 17:48, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
Asta is technically a bandit. That's what the CK says anyways. Also, as a side note, I am not quite sure that— Oh. Wait. Maybe it is incorrect. Thr discussion on "Introductory Sentence of NPC Pages" is irrelevant to mentioning the NPCs class in the "Notes" section DG#:) 17:55, 11 October 2014 (GMT)
This isn't a debate on whether or not it should be there, if you want to remove them all start a topic on the community portal. The note is correct as of the current policies. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:17, 11 October 2014 (GMT)

Neither prettier nor better[edit]

Is it really more aesthetically pleasing to have ‡‡ and ††† as footnote markers? Is it really more pleasing to have "N/A" instead of a clean "—"? What wording was changed so significantly that it would be confusing? Can you cite the previous instances of such wording being confusing? —Proton[talk] 21:59, 19 October 2014 (GMT)

Yes, it is better to have them because it is consistent with the rest of the site, these are the preferred markers. N/A is clear (the plain English part) in what it means, more than a semi-random dash that needs to be interpreted. Many of the individual artifact pages have had questions and/or edits based purely on the misconception and plain ignorance of tempering requirements, mainly for enchanted items where Arcane Blacksmith is needed to temper it, but an additional perk is needed to get the doubling effect of the tempering. Also, the preferred style on those sort of pages is passive, a giving of information, rather than a how-to, as this is better for imparting clear information that doesn't require any interpretation to asses the facts. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:23, 19 October 2014 (GMT)
Thank you for the cohesive response. While I feel that numerical footnotes are superior to obtrusive repeated daggers, I'm not quite motivated enough to do a mass revamp across the wiki, so I'll leave out as is for the meantime.

Player Speed[edit]

According to the Race talk page, the people were testing it with the player character, and the height of the character changed the speed. Everything I've heard also points to this being the case. Jeancey (talk) 21:56, 20 October 2014 (GMT)

I didn't get an edit conflict or add it back after your undo (as you can see by my summary). I had a look on the talk page after I added the sentence because I believe that your character does use a "standard" setting (i.e. always at 1), as observed by your character always having the same viewpoint, and that the height number might be a multiplier to your character (which allows for the same view to all races when in dialogue), but lacking the creation kit I cannot test that. The people on the talk page seem to be discussing and using the scale setting rather than a proper test on the height setting, as users Warrior7 and BlackTheAltmerMage make note of. Most of it appears to be guesswork based on observation without test too, with only one I'd class as a proper test, but that method was questioned, so I'd like a proper check on the player's height if possible. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:17, 20 October 2014 (GMT)
You wouldn't have gotten an edit conflict since you just added to the original version, not really modified it. You would have only gotten a conflict if the sentence that was originally there was changed in some way. I would think this would be fairly easy to test. Just make a character identical in every way except race. Say a male altmer vs a male bosmer. Record how long it takes each to run a straight distance (like the bridge in front of windhelm). If they are the same, then the height doesn't affect speed. If they are different, then it does. To be safe I would drop everything from your inventory for each character, so that every aspect is the same. One of the reasons they were testing the player scale (from what I can gather) is that it is possible that the change isn't affecting speed but the scale itself. So altmer's scale is 1.05, and a bosmer's scale is .95. The scale affects the speed, but the speed multiplier stays at 1.00. I could be wrong though, but I think that's why they were using the player's scale to test it. Jeancey (talk) 22:38, 20 October 2014 (GMT)
That's the way it worked in Oblivion. Rpeh and I tested it fairly thoroughly. All the in-game console commands showed a speed multiplier of 1, but running across the stupidly long bridge in front of the Imperial City, it was very clearly different between the different races. I just tested on the Windhelm bridge with similar results, using the console SetRace command to quickly switch with an otherwise identical character. With a female Altmer, I ran across the bridge in about 23 seconds; with a female Breton, it took 26. (Just read the thread in question...glad to hear we got the same values! I'll try again with "real" characters shortly.) I repeated the test several times with each to be sure. Also, your viewpoint does change between races, though you have to be standing right up against something like a door with a pattern on it to notice. But standing against the Windhelm door, clearly, as a Breton, the center of the screen was lower than as an Altmer. Robin Hood  (talk) 02:56, 21 October 2014 (GMT)
Thanks, I don't tend to get that close to things to notice any real difference, and a proper test using the pc rather than simple observation is better. I think that it being the same mechanics in Oblivion is the clincher here, as well as you getting the same results as the only other pc based test. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:24, 21 October 2014 (GMT)


Please remain civil. This kind of behaviour is completely out of line. —Legoless (talk) 13:57, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

Excuse you me, but an admin has offended me twice, and twice refused to even comprehend the possibility that they are mistaken, despite evidence being proven. Unless you too wish another inquest into your unacceptable behaviour, I suggest you implore the other admin to use their common sense and stop avoiding the issue. I am well within my rights to suggest a warning might be in order, no matter who the person is, unless you are suggesting that admins have special privileges? Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:08, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
Okay, I am going to jump in here and say that Silencer, your comment could be perceived as uncivil. This reply was also rather rude to Legoless, but I can see your point. I think that the way you suggested the warning was the problem, not the suggestion itself. Overall, I think your words are misinterpreted as mean or harsh, despite that not being your goal. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 14:26, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
My goal is to get a response from Jeancey that is in direct relation to the insults he threw my way, either an apology or a defense of those comments. He has offered nothing except some conceptualized idea of a policy that he believes in, that in no way mitigates the actions he took. The only real surprise is that no admin took it upon themselves to try and silence me earlier, and every attempt at doing so is worthy of a warning itself. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:32, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
What insults did he throw your way? I only skimmed the passage and haven't read previous remarks between the two of you. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 14:38, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
If the insults are so hidden for you, yet you can justify Legoless's unjustifiable comments, then you cannot be trusted as a mediator. He accused me multiple times of breaking multiple policies, something I have never done. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:43, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

() Jeancey has commented only twice on that topic, and neither post includes any mention of policies, they both just say that he doesn't think the images should be deleted without contacting the user. I understand where you're coming from Silencer, but outrage and accusations will get you nowhere. --AN|L (talk) 14:48, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

And comments such as "here we go again...." show exactly the type of people who are unsuitable to hold a neutral position. If you cannot be civil stay off my page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:51, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
(edit conflict × 2) In that conversation, the only thing I could see as a potential insult was Jeancey saying "It simply isn't okay to delete another users personal images without their consent.". I suspect that you are referencing other conversations, seeing as Jeancey only commented twice in the discussion stated by Legoless. Have you attempted to contact Jeancey directly about your grievances? It is entirely possible that he was not meaning to offend you, like how you don't mean to offend people with what you say. ~ Ad intellige (talk) 14:56, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
Trying to assume good faith when good faith has been broken is a ridiculous concept, so no, I have no reason to believe Jeancey was not deliberately insulting me. Some editors simply can't stand the truth being told, and have repeatedly tried to stop discussion when they come under scrutiny (I'm looking at you Legoless, trying to hype up a situation to where telling the truth becomes a blockable offense). That sentence is entirely made-up, it is fine to delete user images without telling them, it has been done since before that administrator joined the site, by admins who have had far more experience with the rules and policies Jeancey has misquoted (deliberately or not). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 15:12, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
An action may be just as much an insult as a statement. Silencer may believe Jeancey insulted his integrity, even if that was not Jeancey's intention, based on Jeancey's edit summary referencing the deletion policy. I believe Silencer proposed deletion according to the Wikipedia Deletion Policy, Reason 12: "files that are unused or obsolete", which I understand is used de facto when we do not have our own policy, which we do not on unused images. It should be noted that it was a proposed deletion, emphasis on proposition, and not a speed request. Anyone is within their right to object to and remove a prod, as policy states. Robin's statement sums this up the best: "Proposed deletions really don't have any particular rules governing them other than the fact that nobody has objected to the deletion. I think that makes the case for user images, especially: if the user doesn't come back to object to the proposed deletion of an unused image, the image can be deleted."
Jeancey referenced an aspect of our deletion policy which does not actually exist (one way or another), and I believe Silencer was just trying to point out that fact. What should be taken from this is the need to expand and/or revamp the deletion policy. Apologies to you Silencer if I have misinterpreted any of your comments in my attempt at summarising. --Enodoc (talk) 16:12, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
And there we have it, after all the invented hype, someone else notices the thing I pointed out at the very start, "Jeancey referenced an aspect of our deletion policy which does not actually exist". So by looking beyond my name someone else can see that I was in fact correct in pointing out that Jeancey was wrong. Such a pity that it took three talk pages and a visit to the admin board before another user was prepared to say it. I hope you continue to have the courage to state the truth in the future Enodoc. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:46, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

() I've barely been active for the last few months, and will remain so for the near future, so I'm not getting too involved in this, and I'm not going to say anything except this: Please be careful with how you word things, Silencer. Even a brief glance at that message revealed several snide comments, and I see several more in your responses here. You're playing a dangerous game here, and it's a game that nobody wins. You're a good editor. I know that. We all know that. You don't have to prove anything to us. We really don't like having to block you or give you warnings or whatever, because that means the policy is being broken, and that's precisely what we don't want. Even more so because we respect you. To be honest, the reason I got so upset in the big episode a few months ago was because it hurt me to see someone I respected acting so disrespectfully to someone else.

Please be careful with how you word responses. In several of your conversations above (like this, this, and even this), you've shown you can be civil in dealing with other people. Please continue to do that. This isn't an instruction or order, it's a request from me to you as a fellow editor. I'm not going to make any further responses in this discussion; everything else I can say on the subject, I've already said. Zul se onikaanLaan tinvaak 02:23, 28 October 2014 (GMT)


I would like a proper and detailed explanation of this block. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:53, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

Blocked (2)[edit]

Stop x.png This account has been blocked from editing UESPWiki. If you wish to appeal the block, you may make your request on your talk page, which you can still edit even while being blocked. Robin Hood  (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

Over the last several months, The Silencer has demonstrated repeatedly that he has difficulty being civil. This has been targetted at multiple users including Biffa, Legoless, Jeancey, and others. Offences range from snarky comments to accusations without proof to continued use of the term "lying" when, in fact, there has been nothing more than simple misunderstanding or miscommunication. The wiki is not benefitting from this drama, so I've put an end to it for the next six months. Robin Hood  (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

All my accusations have proof, I have yet to be asked to show that proof, rather I have been treated abhorrently by the administrators, including yourself, who would rather block me than see that proof. The claims you make against me are entirely stemmed from the first block I received that was knowingly based on lies (or so-called miscommunication). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:01, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
You were asked to show that proof during your last block. You showed none. Instead, you responded only with vague hand-waving and repeated assertions that you had proof. Proof involves links and quotations from those links, not repetitions of the phrase "I have proof". Even in the discussion about deleting user images, you repeated that you had proof of Jeancey's insulting comments, yet when it was asked for, your only response was to belittle the user who asked for it and still provide none.
Has Jeancey made mistakes during all this? Sure. As I've said previously, we all do. Administrators are no more infallible than anyone else. Your response to the situation, however, was entirely uncalled for. Rather than trying to resolve it like an adult, you started with impolite and degenerated from there. "Jeancey is wrong" may be factual based on what he said, but there were better ways of putting it, like "Jeancey, can you clarify what you meant? I don't see that anywhere in our policies." When Dominus replied, you started with "Well, if you knew our policies...." Again, hardly a civil way to engage in conversation. Your responses after that in that thread alone were nothing short of rude and insulting.
The thread above, where Legoless asked you to be civil, you again failed to be civil at all. Instead, you tried to turn the discussion to be about him or about the policy rather than dealing with your own civility issue. What's more, instead of acknowledging any impropriety of your own, you instead launched an interaction ban. I'm sorry, but no. The interaction problems here are consistently with you, nobody else. Until you can learn to deal with your civility issues yourself, without making it about anybody else, you're blocked. Robin Hood  (talk) 18:14, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
You asked me for proof after I was blocked with no intention of allowing me to clear my name, it wasn't worth my time explaining anything to you at that time. I provided the proof of Legoless indiscretions on the admin board which he admitted were true but not deliberate, but a lie is "an inaccurate or false statement" so the truth is a lie. Why is a fact uncivil, a fact is neutral, its perception is entirely that of the readers and cannot be attributed to the messenger, so 'Jeancey is wrong' is both factual and civil. Unlike your own unprovable claims about me, I can see that my response to Dominus might be taken that way. My responses after that are in direct reply to an admin who has just made up a policy to justify their actions, if I am to be taken up on incivility for those comments, then that admin should receive the same scrutiny over their false claims. If you need more proof ask for it, before you extend my block. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:36, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
3lie: "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive". There was no intent, therefore repeatedly calling people liars is not only inappropriate, but also insulting. As I just said on the AN, if you feel you've been wronged here, by all means, I'm absolutely willing to reconsider my block. Clearly, there are people who feel my block may have been premature, but just as clearly, people expect this type of behaviour to be dealt with. Contrary to your belief, I have every intention of allowing you to present whatever proof you feel is relevant. If you want me to overturn my own block, though, you will have to do so on the grounds of how we can improve the situation in the future. Of course, you also have the option to appeal to other administrators or Dave if you feel I'm not being objective.
For whatever it's worth, I know what it's like to be on the wrong side of a bad admin or a team of admins who just aren't seeing the problem—I've been there. I don't want to be one of those admins for you, but I also can't let incivility go completely unchallenged and unchecked. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:09, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
#3 here as well "an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood." You seem to have contradicted yourself. You say you are willing to listen to claims of being wronged here but also state that you won't overturn a block based on those reasons on those grounds. You also say on the admin board you say in regards appealing the block "but at least as far as I'm concerned, it will have to be on the grounds of "This has gotten out of hand. How can we fix it?" rather than "Here's why everyone else but me is wrong, lying, or covering things up."" I'm not entirely sure where I stand with you, as you seem to be ruling out the possibility of me appealing against it on the grounds that it was given, but appealing against it on grounds that it has nothing to do with? Feel free to clarify. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:30, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
#1 at the link you give is how most people perceive the word "lie". That's undoubtedly why it's #1. I don't see my statements as contradictory. If you want me to overturn my own block, then it needs to involve a fix to the civility issue, regardless of whatever other issues there may be. However, only discussing everyone else's wrong-doing, without addressing your own, will not convince me to overturn my block. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:44, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

Good to see you back![edit]

Good to see you back and active again! —MortenOSlash (talk) 22:15, 28 April 2015 (GMT)

Well, someone needs to clear out the maintenance categories, may as well be me. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:23, 28 April 2015 (GMT)
Ditto. Nice to have you operational again!--Beezer1029 (talk) 22:47, 28 April 2015 (GMT)
I'm glad to see you editing again, too! :)  ~Shuryard (talk) 23:19, 28 April 2015 (GMT)
Welcome back! :) Holomay (talk) 08:09, 29 April 2015 (GMT)


Gah! I'm forever forgetting to add categories to pages and images. Thanks for the fix. Robin Hood  (talk) 18:18, 2 May 2015 (GMT)

Murkmire books[edit]

Hey, so the murkmire books aren't in game yet, they are data mined. There was a decision to keep them out of more until they are released, which is why they were only in the online namespace. There are a few datamined books we are keeping out of lore for that reason. Jeancey (talk) 21:29, 5 May 2015 (GMT)

All I can find is this message from yourself on the overview page "whenever it gets moved to lore". Also the lore links were left requesting pages. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:34, 5 May 2015 (GMT)
it wasn't on these books, it happened on another set of datamined books iirc. In any case, I just wanted to let you know, probably should avoid moving any books in the future to lore unless they have a collection listed with a full collection page. Jeancey (talk) 21:38, 5 May 2015 (GMT)
For reference, the discussion on this is here (also see here), and is based on the guideline of not including pre-release content in lorespace. Although I appreciate you may not have realized that it was only pre-release content, which is my fault because I forgot to mark it as such. --Enodoc (talk) 22:34, 5 May 2015 (GMT)

Great Houses membership[edit]

Hey Silencer! There is a discussion on the Great Houses membership. I'd say that while Miirist Redoran very likely belongs to the House Redoran, judging by her location, I cannot surely say the same about Mondran Redoran, for instance. What are your thoughts on this?  ~Shuryard (talk) 19:55, 9 May 2015 (GMT)

The balance of probability came up favourably. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:23, 9 May 2015 (GMT)

Creatures Categorization[edit]

Hey Silencer! This line: [[Category:Online-Creatures-Bear| Bear]] allows us to place general page Online:Bear separately from all the individual bears in the category, on top of the list to be specific. Why do you think it is best to get rid of it?  ~Shuryard (talk) 18:47, 18 May 2015 (GMT)

Because it is not proper categorization for that page. Sorting like that is only for pages that relate to but are not exactly part of the category, such as Horses in the Horses category. The page is not about an individual horse, it is about all horses, whereas a page at Horse would not be sorted like that because you can encounter a 'horse' in the game, just like you can encounter a creature simply named 'bear'. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:52, 18 May 2015 (GMT)
That would be the case if Online:Bear contained info about generic bear creatures only, but it also has a list of unique bears. Take Online:Dog or Online:Guar pages, for instance, they also have a list of related quests. Since we do not separate Online:Dogs from Online:Dog, and the category description says "This category lists all of the individual dogs", I would say it would be better if the page is sorted separately. Let me post link to this discussion to CP and see if somebody else has something to say about it.  ~Shuryard (talk) 20:35, 18 May 2015 (GMT)
If an animal can be found it does not get sorted to the top. If only named versions of an animal can be found then becomes a species page which would not properly belong in the category (and in which case the summary box would be removed. I can find a Bear, therefore the Bear properly belongs to that category, alongside all the unique named ones and the variants (eg Black Bear). Just because the pages are currently lacking in information does not mean we categorize them badly.
PS. If you want to drag this 'discussion' beyond mere clarification, feel free to start a CP discussion, I don't want people coming to my page for it. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:00, 18 May 2015 (GMT)


Yes, it can be transcluded, but ever since I believe Oblivion, but at the very least Skyrim we have been repeating them on the page. Often the lore ones are different from the game ones, and, it prevents issues due to caching. More than that, every single ESO book has (or should have) the description on the page. For that reason alone I am reverting to re-add the description because it makes no sense to have every book but one have the description on the page. Every book should have it. Jeancey (talk) 20:48, 19 May 2015 (GMT)

'Often'? I have never observed one that is different so that's some claim, not to mention that allowing different descriptions is just begging for inconsistencies on the wiki. Preventing issues with caching is not an excuse, seeing as we don't attempt that anywhere else. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 20:57, 19 May 2015 (GMT)
It happens quite a bit with books from previous games, as many are split into separate parts, or have had sections removed. The main argument is that to change one, you'd have to change hundreds, and having the description on the page doesn't really hurt anything. Jeancey (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2015 (GMT)
Split books are not the same as the full book so of course they can and likely will have different descriptions, identical books on the other hand have no reason (besides time eg now/then) to have different descriptions. The argument that one page is wrong so they should all be wrong is one of the worst excuses offered, if it means editing 500 pages to correct them I'm sure you'd be the first to do it to increase your edit count. I much preferred the time people found reasons to do productive things rather than found excuses not to. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:47, 19 May 2015 (GMT)
Let's take a step back here before this gets out of hand. I don't want this to become another instance of something that gets cited as a reason for another block, so let's please not be too accusatory in our responses. Zul do onikaanLaan tinvaak 22:06, 19 May 2015 (GMT)
Why don't you take a step back, your involvement is nether desired or warranted. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:09, 19 May 2015 (GMT)


Um, thanks for correcting my spelling... I didn't know if it was correct or not. But I see you have corrected it thank you. :) — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 00:57 on 3 June 2015

On Tribunal:Dark Brotherhood? Yes, I changed it back. It was an awkward sentence though so WoahBro edited it to clear up the meaning. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:02, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Mjoll the lioness[edit]

I noticed you did an undo on my addition of a hunting bow as default equipment for Mjoll. Your reason was "not by the data". What does that mean? Mjoll clearly uses a hunting bow in the game. Can you explain why you removed that edit? Luke1138 (talk) 05:41, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

She might be using a bow in your game, but by default, she doesn't own a bow at all. I've verified this in my own game, as well as in the Creation Kit. If she has one in your game, it's either a fluke (somehow she picked one up at some point?) or a mod has added it. Robin Hood  (talk) 06:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
If I recall, don't several followers default to the Hunting Bow, despite it not being in their inventory? I'm sure I have had followers with empty inventories, but when a dragon attacks, they pull out that bow (Xbox). I understand the Giant's Club doesnt actually show in a followers inventory if they pick it up. Same goes for their default armor. Could the bow be an invisible item? --Jimeee (talk) 18:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
You nailed it, Jimeee! When someone becomes a follower, they have a hunting bow added to their inventory. Robin Hood  (talk) 19:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
I think it's part of a script, to add a hunting bow to a follower. Either way, it's not notewhorty because it's default for all followers. ~ Dwarfmp (talk) 19:36, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Ah, so I wasn't going crazy! Yeah, some mention is probably more appropriate for the Skyrim:Followers page. --Jimeee (talk) 20:00, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Dwarf: it's actually added directly to the alias in the DialogueFollower quest as part of their equipment, so no script is involved.
Jimeee: Done. I'd already added it before catching up on this chain and finding the recommendation to add it. :) Robin Hood  (talk) 20:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Blocked (3)[edit]

Stop x.png This account has been blocked from editing UESPWiki for one year for persistent abuse of other editors. Personal attacks (such as templating the regulars, sarcastic remarks, unfounded accusations, inflammatory remarks, insults, and general outbursts) are grounds for an immediate block. No change in attitude has been shown since your previous block, and your contributions have become disruptive to the site. —Legoless (talk) 23:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

"Non Book"-template[edit]

Hey Silencer, is the "Non Book"-template a recommended way for providing notes on book pages? For example here - Resolutes of Stendarr Note. I'll start using it then instead of making new paragraphs. There are several books with inconsistent names (or other information that I want to include on the page as a side note). Tib (talk) 00:48, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it removes the notes from appearing to be part of the text. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 01:05, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
Ok, ty! Tib (talk) 00:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
Don't forget the dashes ---- to make a line to separate the note. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:53, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Empty Pages[edit]

Regarding this edit (and similar); is it not the case that a page remains to be considered "empty" if it has no content outside of a template? That is, I thought a page must have at least an opening sentence for it to be considered non-empty. --Enodoc (talk) 16:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

If it contains content it isn't empty. I would consider the skill descriptions to be content regardless of their placement in a template, and there are other templates to use if it is missing content, including the stub template. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:27, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Fair enough, thanks! I was of the opinion that anything in a template didn't count as content. --Enodoc (talk) 21:21, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

The "mistakenly added" book/crafting motif collections, a question[edit]

From Dromothra Style page, "This collection has been mistakenly added to the library, the books are not yet available in the game." - Hasn't ZOS been doing that since Thieves Guild though (or even Orsinium?) It seems they are preparing several crafting motifs and plan ahead when these are pushed out. In which case I wonder whether it is a mistake or something deliberate, that the collections have placeholders like this? Tib (talk) 10:22, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

I haven't been paying attention to thinks like that, but it would seem to be a mistake to reveal the content on the main game (not PTS) before release as it ruins the surprise. And though the other two sets Ebony and Ra Gada had specific chapters named, Dromothra wasn't even fully formed, and as you've pointed put, not even spelt correctly in the Library. If it is determined not to be a mistake about revealing the info, a message about its unavailability is a must to let people know they'll have to wait to complete it. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:31, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree that a note should be there informing that these collections are not available yet :) But I doubt it's a mistake that they're adding these collections before actual release. (Dromothra was just example btw, misspelling is another issue, likely ZOS sloppiness) Tib (talk) 11:28, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
In this user's humble opinion, appearance means availability. If the books are in the library, why not add the styles to the crafting stations, I'd like to think if they have the wherewithal and ability to suppress the crafting station (assuming its available for testing on the PTS) they can do it with the library. We should keep an eye out on the next patch to see if the new styles are added to the library before the DLC is available. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:51, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
We haven't been very diligent in the past with updating the Eidetic Memory in the past so I have no idea how long they've been doing this, but I agree with having a collection page if the list is currently visible on live. We'll need it eventually anyway so no harm done. —Legoless (talk) 12:01, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
No-ones talking about removing the collection pages, seeing as I created them, what we're discussing is the notice that says they were 'mistakenly' added to the library. The question being if it was a mistake or not. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 12:08, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Ah. Certainly seems like a mistake to be adding lists for unavailable books to live, so I'd agree with the notice. —Legoless (talk) 12:28, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

() For me a mistake is something unintended, but well. We seem to agree about that having a note is appropriate, and that the collection pages are fine to have, so it's okay for me to have this wording. I partly asked because I wondered if ZOS had maybe admitted some mistake, which they sometimes do on PTS forums, etc. Tib (talk) 17:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Want Some Cheap and Easy Edits?[edit]

I'm currently working on the ESL card upload, since we have to do that manually. A few new ones are popping up, and some with new designs. I'll try to call those ones out in the description, and I'd be fine if you wanted to swoop in and get the edit out of the way while I'm doing the file uploads. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 21:55, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand what you want me to do, what edits need made? Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:02, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm uploading images for Legends cards. Some of the ones I am uploading are new cards, and some have new art. If you were to create the page for the new ones, you would save me the work of going back and doing the same, so it doesn't mess with the rhythm I have going right now. If you don't want to, that's fine, I'll get to it eventually. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 22:07, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Right, new cards without pages, I can do that. I thought you were talking about descriptions like image descriptions so I was lost. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry about that...[edit]

Looks like we both had the same idea at the same time, to start creating those categories... — TheRealLurlock (talk) 23:55, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

No problem, I was poking my nose in to seem useful, thought I'd clear up some of the redlinks while there was attention on those pages. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:57, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Passive Skills[edit]

Great job with all the icon moves for the passive skills. I'd forgotten that that was even an issue, so didn't think to follow-up with the bot. Now I don't have to! :) Robin Hood  (talk) 04:00, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Those came from TRLs skill moves at the start of the month, not from hotbotties updates. Though there were two duplicate pages created, or rather one duplicate and one correctly named page created because the old name hadn't been moved. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 17:42, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Oh, okay. I know the bot altered or added some icon names as well, so I figured those moves were just from that. The one for Combustion was just out-of-date info in the bot. I couldn't fix it last night while the bot was busy, but I just did now. As for duplicates, if you mean Conditioning, Gift of Magnus, or Stealthy, I'm aware of those issues and am discussing them with Dave. If it was something else, can you point me to it, please? Thanks! Robin Hood  (talk) 18:44, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Keen Eye: Rune Stones/Runestones, I've marked it for a merge, and after a long search in the older edits I finally found the very recent Combustion overlap dealt with. Edit: And maybe if I'd read your whole comment properly I wouldn't have wasted 20 minutes. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 19:15, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Ah, good catch! I double-checked, and it's been spelled as two words as far back as I could find, and all but one of our links used two words as well, so since you'd merged them already, I just clobbered the bot's version with the merged version and left a redirect (at least for now, so people can see what was done...that can probably be deleted in due time). Robin Hood  (talk) 19:58, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

() I just did a dry re-run to see if I've fixed the issue with the overlapping racial skills, and as a result, I caught a number of other corrections you'd made after the bot run. Most of those are now incorporated into the bot job, so they shouldn't happen again. I'm not sure what's going on with Shadow Barrier, though. I take it from your edit summary that the times in the game are all twice what the bot wanted them to be? (And on a side note, it looks like you made a number of corrections to the Active Skills bot run as well...I'll go over those later and see what I can do to avoid them in future runs.) Robin Hood  (talk) 21:37, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Those were influenced by the bonus I had, I don't know why Jeancey didn't revert that one. Unlike before bonuses now actively change the skills wording. If you mean the active skills numbers from the last patch, I wasn't aware of where the numbers were generated from, and an algebraic symbol seemed the best course to display a variable. I haven't really touched active skills as its quite hard to see all three wordings on console. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 21:55, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
As for the active skills, I hadn't even looked at the nature of the changes, I just saw a bunch of edits in your history when I was blanking on Shadow Barrier's name and went to remind myself what I was looking for. :) If you didn't actually change any of the active skills because of something the bot did wrong, I won't worry about it then. Robin Hood  (talk) 22:03, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Whoops. I missed one. I was in a little bit of a rush on the end. Sorry about that! Jeancey (talk) 22:48, 18 August 2016 (UTC)


Thank you for categorizing all those images.

Sorry about that :( Echo (talk) 02:45, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

No bother, though I was putting it off for while given the number. Finally got round to it. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 12:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)


Would you be opposed to me putting your name in to be autopatrolled? Even if you're not fully patrolling any more, I see no reason your edits should have to be manually checked off at this point. Zul do onikaanLaan tinvaak 18:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I would object. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:10, 18 September 2016 (UTC)


Little dispute here; I didn't write Miraak wasn't a Nord, but his name isn't really Nordic, it's in the Dragon language, I don't see the problem with noting that. Similar to how Brand-Shei is noted to be a Dunmer with an Argonian name. Also, if your response is "He's a Nord", why not mix Hevnoraak in there without noting it as different? Andiy (talk) 01:55, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

The name pages are for names given to NPCs or otherwise confirmed. Miraak is a Nord NPC, his dragon priest status is not the same as Hevnoraak's Dragon Priest NPC creature appearance. Brand-Shei is a Dunmer NPC but he was given an Argonian name by his adoptive parents, thus his 'otherwise confirmed' name is noted on the Argonian page but not the Dunmer page. If Miraak was treated the same his name should be moved to the dragon page and noted that he appeared as a Nord. However, there is no reason to do this as it is not a dragon name as the dragon priests typically only have one or two words not three incorporated. The use of another language for a name does not mean that the name itself is not stereotypically of that race. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 11:22, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
There are plenty of examples where names rather than the character are noted to be different but still put on the page, even on the Argonian page with J'Ram-Dar, or Irgola(redguard). Yeah if you treated Miraak the same way he wouldn't even be there, but he doesn't fit on the Dragon page either. It doesn't warrant moving him, it warrants a footnote, even if two-word Dragon names are in common use for Nords. It can only help to categorize between the two, similar to how Argonian Cyrodilic names are seperated from the classic Jel ones. Andiy (talk) 13:48, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
The difference with J'Ram-Dar is that there is nothing to confirm that the name is of Khajiit origin, therefore it cannot be placed on the Khajiit page. The difference between Cyrodilic and Jel Argonian names is that they usually have both, or else just a Jel name. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the dragon priest names are not typical Nord names, considering that the priests conversed with the dragons its hard not to assume that Nords took names from the language of their rulers in the same way a lot of real-world names have their origins in foreign languages. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:40, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
I take your point, but it's still worth noting that it has a meaning in the Dragon tongue, even if you assume that there was no stratification between Dragon and Atmoran naming(which I actually find harder to believe as Dragon Priests were the middlemen between the Dragon overlords and the humans). Wouldn't you agree? Andiy (talk) 15:33, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
Translation notes are on all the dragon priest pages. There really isn't the room on the name pages to list the origins of every name, even for just those we know of. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 16:48, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
All right, well thanks for the explanations, I'll leave it. Andiy (talk) 17:44, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Concurrence Removal[edit]

I get removing the fonts, even though I find it unnecessarily bureaucratic, I can abide by it. But here I see you have removed my comment as well. Is there something wrong with what I said, those two words? Why did you feel the need to silence what I said, especially when it’s simply an opinion on a Talk Page pertaining to a topic & not an actual Main Namespace change? I’m not vandalizing anything, just talking & asking questions & reporting the bugs I find for others. Are you a sysop here?
Kalarus (talk) 22:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

He moved your post down to a new topic because it would have been a necropost on the old topic otherwise. Your comment is still there :) Tib (talk) 22:46, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
I know he moved the Topic down, it was my bad for adding it at the top, but he still removed the comment on another section of that page. See here, line 11 which became line 8.
Kalarus (talk) 22:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Your edit fell squarely into the realm of necroposting. Topics more than 3 months, but usually more than 6 months, are deemed to be closed by wiki standards, and should only be added/reopened if you are adding something missing, answering a serious question that has been left unanswered, or to address a misrepresentation in the discussion that could lead to issues if left alone. Simply agreeing with something does not add anything to the discussion, and thats before mentioning that talk pages are for possible improvements to the article. Discussing the rights and wrongs of a topic is for the forums. And no, I'm not a sysop, I just happen to know an awful lot about wiki-standards and am probably one of the least bureaucratic people you will encounter, considering my adopted wiki-motto. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:03, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Ah, that makes sense. I totally get it now, I was just wanting for a solid reason for why my comment was removed. Is there a list of rules anywhere here? I’d like to look at them so that I don’t make such mistakes in the future.
Kalarus (talk) 23:15, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Help:Contents contains basic editing information at the top and our standards on layout and so forth at the bottom. UESPWiki:Policies and Guidelines has some basic standards and links to the most common guidelines, while Category:Policies and Guidelines should contain all applicable pages. I thought we had a page on necroposting, but it seems we don't, the wikipedia page generally applies then, which has a standard of anything over 90 days old cannot be reopened (obviously we ignore that to some degree). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Rift aspens[edit]

I edited the description of a image of the Rift on it's Skyrim page, to say "The Rift's aspen forests" instead of "The Rift's birch forests" which you quickly reverted. I want to clarify that the reason I made the edit is that they are listed by Bethesda themselves as aspens inside the Creation Kit. TreeAspenForest01, TreeAspenForest02, TreeAspenForest03 etc etc. — Unsigned comment by (talk) at 04:38 on 4 December 2016‎

I didn't know that, I was going by appearance which to me seem more birch, but clearly they are meant to be aspen given the editor ids. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:18, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Thank you for fixing my uploaded images. I am new to editing. I will try to remember to place future map images in the correct category. I have still not learned the proper coding messages to add text information, but I will get there. Again, thank you. User:Dmdbd1970 22:57, 7 December 2016

No problem. You could also have uploaded the new Rihad image over the old one if it had been a png file. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:43, 7 December 2016 (UTC)


Just FYI, while I was doing other stuff to the {{Ribbon}} template, I noticed your attempt to right-align the images and added that functionality to the template (then promptly used it on the doc page). Just thought I'd mention it, since it affects the formatting of your user page (if only slightly). Robin Hood  (talk) 05:07, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Not having looked at my page in a while, I think they were centered or at least meant to be. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 13:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

April Fools[edit]

I did like your companion page, by the way. It was nice enough to convince me to make General:April Fools so that those past efforts can be found, at least. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 17:56, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

After reading the 'news' a number of ideas on expanding the joke came to me so I threw together a quick page. There was talk of a page for them the last time we did one, but no action was taken and they dropped off the radar. There was another April Fools quite a while ago (as in 10 years or more), where a banned user was nominated for Admin, but it was a bad joke playing on a user's self-confessed issues and is probably best left in the back-end of the archives rather than added to the page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 18:49, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

In case you were wondering[edit]

Just in case you're wondering why I deleted some of the user categories you prodded but not others, that was a total goof on my part. I'm not about to bring back the ones I accidentally deleted unless there's good reason, but I'll let the rest go through the normal Prod process as they should. Robin Hood  (talk) 18:49, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

I can't use the sandbox...[edit]

In the sandbox that you advised me equally appears the same warning trying to do big edits that I received in my own user page (I can't do big edits until I did another 10 edits elsewhere...)--Tamrié (talk) 21:20, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I didn't realise how new your account was. There is an additional required to the basic account verification which is 4 days. The 10 edits should count in userspace as far as I remember, meaning you are well past that requirement. The "big edits" filter prevents editing, but if you make smaller ones it should at most only ask confirmation or warn you, but you can make the edit by submitting the edit anyway. If there's any other problems let me know. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 00:38, 28 May 2017 (UTC)


Hi The Silencer, thanks to the useful indications as to use always capital letters in the "articles names".

In regard to locations listed in the article, I think that Daggerfall:Places page must be similar to other games "places" pages (what wasn't the case in the previous text). A list of every distinct "type" of place, links to regions, every important location, specially the settlements or links to other (existing) articles of interest in the "places" category, so exactly the same that other games examples. The article is still a WIP but I don't pretend to "list every place" as you said, in fact not even a 5% of Daggerfall locations will be include in the final version. The 100% of the +4000 "towns" are indeed already included in the Daggerfall regions specific articles, but I only pretend to include quest related places or other interesting/unique places in the case of homes, temples and dungeons sections while only capitals, other major walled cities (that are only a tiny percentage of total settlements, maybe 100 cities) and only some other special relevance towns, in the settlements section, so again exactly the same that in other games examples:

Skyrim:places, list more than 300 specific places, Oblivion:Places a similar number. Morrowind despite it has by far more places than Oblivion or Skyrim (more than 600 places and +400 individual buildings more, so more than 900 interiors, and even more, distinct interiors, counting multi-level dungeons...) but "only" list in Morrowind: Places less than 100 different places (only settlements and some few other locations, so less than a 10% of Morrowind places are listed) and provide links to other specific articles. In my current Daggerfall:Places edition are listed only less than 60 specific places (and the regions links). Considering the fact that Daggerfall has many more unique, pre-fixed, designed and handcrafted places (dubious in the "hadcrafted" part) that all other TES main series games + Onine, Redguard, Battlespire, etc, all together, the listing of similar amount of places than Skyrim, Oblivion, or even more, is fully justified. But I repeat, I only already include less places than other games examples and in the final version... maybe a similar number to Skyrim:Places will be include in places article, not much more.

In regard to Iliac Bay size section, I have two objections:

1. Is not information about Daggerfall places, but map/game world size calculations, wich isn't present in any other ":Places" article. Why must we include that kind of information in this Daggerfall:Places article, when is not included in any other similar article?

2. And most importantly: Is fan-made info (very good, relevant and interesting one, but still fan-made). Isn't possible to arrive to that info by developers declarations, game data info, manuals or using some exploring or editing programs.

In contrast, the totally available demographic info (because is a "easy to count" feature, and because Bethesda offer us construction set/creation kit doing even easier to count that that number, it's at this moment categoryzed as "general" which is basically wrong categorization (direct game info! not fanbase speculation, but totally objective and easily affordable game info, info that even is possible to count playing the games!...). The reason is basically that we lack of a proper category for "Elder Scrolls" info that is very, very different from fan-made art, speculations, studies, development teams, mods, etc. General: is totum revolutum category, don't you think?

But anyways if I understand the uesp working, fan-made info isn't included in specific games articles isn't it?--Tamrié (talk) 22:14, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I understand that it is a work in progress, but I had some concerns about the direction it was going in. Under Towns-Other large cities-High Rock you have 21 links to the same place, namely Anticlere#Service Locations, and a less concerning 3 links to Abibon-Gora#Service Locations above it. That amount of links to one place, if duplicated would be less than helpful, despite each one having a different displayed name. The pages should be useful and familiar to a Daggerfall player, even if that means not duplicating the likes of Oblivion and Skyrim Places pages. It would be more prudent to compare Daggerfall to Online/ESO when structuring pages. ESO NPCs and Books are devoid of inhabitants, where in Oblivion and Skyrim they list every NPC and every book. The ESO place page duplicates the first section of Skyrim's, but does not attempt to list all places, just the zones which would be the regions in Daggerfall. You do not have to follow that exactly, but it would be a better comparison than Skyrim.
The modspaces I talked about would be the exact right type of page for that information, but lacking them and lacking the support to create them, the information will have to stay in Daggerfall namespace. There are many "fan-made info" pages like this, including mods such as AndyFall that should not be in that namespace, but your page is technical information and more appropriate, if you compare it to Skyrim and it's mod pages Tes5Mod.
The general demographics page puts together all of the games known demographics, but each game has its own page within its namespace, linked at the top of the demographics page. The general namespace is somewhat of a dumping zone for pages we don't quite know where else to put, but that page has two better locations, Daggerfall or Tes2Mod (when it is eventually created). Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 23:16, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
1. The Anticlere#Service Locations is a provisional solution because I don't know how to link directly to the specific city in the service location section in the mentioned region pages! In the regional pages (Anticlere, Dragontail Mountains, etc) you can check as every single settlement in these regions (the +3.000...) is listed with its shops, temples or guilds, if we could link directly to the specific city name position in the page (for example to Anticlere#Service Locations+"#Aldshire"? or some other code) all great stores or banks, guilds and temples hotspots in Daggerfall are referenced/linked without doing any new location page (I thought that adding some other 100 or more pages in other largest "service provider" locations similar to capitals pages could be useful for readers, with maps included... ) but at least the link to the services provided in regional pages could be a great step. Anyway wether or no we continue to have all these cities links in Daggerfall:Places or if we move all to "settlements" new page, I need some help anyways with the correct linking that must not to general "Service locations" sections but to the specific city position in these tables in every region article.
2. My model never was Skyrim/Oblivion complete lists, but Morrowind:Places example.
In the Online case, there are links to EVERY single location that exist, Do you knowed that? +3.500 "locations" (including buildings) are listed in different types, subtypes and sub-subtypes pages. In Morrowind model on the other hand, we have less than 100 locations linked in the main :Places page, but near all locations (not really, far less inclusive than Online, not single buildings pages, for example...) in different places types pages. ONline categorization is similar to Oblivion/Skyrim (include all) but as the places are many more the editors decide to do it with many sub-categories.
We have these two possible solutions for Daggerfall:Places, the Morrowind model or the Online model, I will put here the numbers so you can compare the really terrible situation in Daggerfall pages and compare with Morrowind/Online:
-Currently places listed in places category:
Morrowind: +600
Daggerfall 204
Online: 3775
-Currently places "types" listed in places main page:
Morrowind: 12-18
Daggerfall: 9... mostly added by me and whitout page yet.
Online: +50 sub-categories
-Currently specific locations listed in main :Places page:
Morrowind: Less than s 10% of places (specially settlements, because services and guilds) listed.
Online: No places listed in main :Places page, only types of locations, but ALL locations (+90% because is WIP, but near all) mentioned, linked, categorized or described in minor pages: near 4.000 places!
Daggerfall: About 0.4% of all locations listed. +60 places.
On the other hand, in Daggerfall region page for example we have already 400 different settlements listed (ALL in that region) in a simple regional page. So it's not something "new".
I prefer the Morrowind model for Daggerfall, so we could cite some important places (all the main quest related + 150-300 largest, most relevant or unique places, specially all the largest cities -for future adition of the maps!- 300 of 15.000... is not to much) and new subtypes categoriestoo with its own pages, but to include most important places only, not every single rock... as indeed Online category does.
What do you think?
3. I will love to help in a TES2mod category, but dude, the Daggerfall places (only the 2-3% more relevant in my model, only the 8% of all towns!!) aren't simply "mod" or hacking material. Not at all. To include information of the marvelous tools that I currently use (Daggerfall Modelling or Daggerfall Imaging from Daggerfall Workshop, far superior to the old Daggerfall explorer used here in UESP to include all Daggerfall capitals maps... so we can improve a lot the maps), or to include more detailed information about the two biggest Daggerfall "rewrite" projects, and specially the enormous possibilities of new modding with the DaggerfallUnity version could be great, but the Daggerfall:Places need a deep rewrite and to include far more information that the current in the Daggerfall: category, not in "Tes2mod" because has nothing to do with modding but it's basic information that UESP wiki lacks (and only in Daggerfall: case!).--Tamrié (talk) 03:28, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
The real solution is to make redirects for each linked page, but if they point to the same place it is still not going to be a solution to listing them all on the same page if it can be avoided. I assumed you would be making all the necessary sub-pages to list all locations like Online does. Online numbers are indeed boosted by certain rocks, but every map-marker gets a page. As you are probably aware I lack Daggerfall experience and am now running out of specific advice, but I am glad to know you are aware of the different layouts and styles that are adapted for the necessities of each game. The Mod spaces are not just for mods, they also include technical information, but I wasn't suggesting moving the places page there, just the Dimensions page. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 10:45, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Patrolled edits?[edit]

Hey, I noticed that you didn't seem to have your edits patrolled (I just had to patrol one of your edits on a user's talkspace). After (admittedly hasty) research, I discovered that you're listed neither as a userpatroller, patroller, nor autopatrolled user. Given how frequently you post on the site, is there a reason for this? I know that you were successfully supported as an autopatrolled user a while ago, but don't know if anything's happened since then. gelza1Talk Cont 22:20, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Some of the above atrocities might give you some insight into the situation. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 22:35, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Black soul gems[edit]

Responding to your edit. It may be obvious to an experienced player that you can't use quest items in another quest, but is UESP only for experienced players? When I first played Oblivion, I got very frustrated on this quest wondering why my black soul gems were not accepted. I think someone else might too. Vlad the Imperial (talk) 13:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

It is not beyond any player to understand the concept of a quest item, ie, that item is only for one specific purpose, and that purpose is not an entirely unrelated quest that requires you leaving the middle of a quest, going past the person you are supposed to deliver the items to in order to leave. Unlike other wikis we trust in the intelligence of our readers and don't treat them like children. We also have a preference for only explaining what is possible, and only including impossibilities where something would be expected to be possible. Following this, you would not expect a quest item to work anywhere else, so the only inclusion of the appropriate page is that the soul gems can be used in enchanting, thus breaking the related quest. Silence is GoldenBreak the Silence 14:53, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
OK, well in that case it doesn't belong on the page for the Cheydenhal recommendation quest either. I'll make the change. Vlad the Imperial (talk) 15:55, 24 June 2017 (UTC)