User talk:Aristeo/2006-09

Editing Other People's User Pages

Reverting vandalism edits? Fine. Editing to avoid offending your simplistic idea of what qualifies as "profanity"? Not okay. Next time, leave it be. --Wrye 13:25, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

Because our readers tend to be quite young compared to other communities, it has been an unwritten rule that profanity should not be used on pages unless the exclusion of these words would make the guide less informative or accurate. (I believe Wikipedia has a similar guideline.) There hasn't been any sort of consensus on this rule, the rule has just been upheld by the conduct of new and experienced users that come onto the site. If you feel that there should be some kind of consensus for this, then feel free to ask everyone what they think.

To be honest, I believe you should reconsider your entire userpage. Your user page serves only as an advertisement to the mods that you are developing, and users should avoid adding substantial content to their userpage that is unrelated to our project. According to your criticism of Halo112358's user page, you stated you "think that [a] user page should say a little bit about you and then talk about you as a 'UESP Wikipedian'." In the words of Halo112358, you should follow your own standards. [1]

For future consideration, it would help you get your point across if you remained civil with your claims. Asking people not to edit your user page without talking to you on your talk page is perfectly understandable, but demanding that they "leave things be" is considered to be rude. Attacking users tends to anger them, and can also lead to a general bad feeling. Please try to remain civil with your comments.

--Aristeo 14:21, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

Since I was asked to pick up this hot potato, here are my two cents :)

Basically, I agree with most of what both Wrye and Aristeo are saying.

A user's page is theirs, to decide what to include and what not. There are limits (this isn't MySpace), but as long as content is semi-UESP related and not excessively long, I think users should get to do what they want. On the other hand, other editors have occasionally made minor edits to user pages. I don't personally have any objections to other editors making changes to my page, as long as the the changes don't fundamentally change the content of the page. I do realize that people's opinions about edits of their user page do differ, and the owner of the page should be the one to decide what happens with their page.

On the other hand, this is a wiki about games, and therefore does have a relatively young audience. It is very conceivable that readers have content blockers or other controls set up by their parents: including gratuitous profanities increases the chances of UESP being blocked from our readership. Other than when quoting from the games, I can't think of too many cases where offensive content needs to included on UESP. And generally it is the readers, rather than the writer, who determine what is offensive content.

In order to find a compromise here, my suggestions would be:

• Wrye, if you feel so strongly about people editing your user page, you should state that on your user page. Then other editors would know your opinion on the matter, and would refrain from doing anything other than reverting vandalism.
• In this particular case, 'damn' does seem completely gratuitous. It's not even in a sentence; it's just demonstrating what a bullet looks like in a table. While it's not a word that I personally consider offensive, I know that to many people it is and therefore it isn't really appropriate on UESP. Furthermore, I can't see that changing it to 'darn' has any downside. I would vote in favour of such a change being made.

So, Wrye, any chance of convincing you to make this one change for the sake of general wiki peace, and thereafter everyone will refrain from editing your page? --Nephele 17:24, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

When you choose to use profanity, not only is there a possibility that you may offend someone, but it reflects upon your reputation and integrity. For example, you wouldn't use profanity in a job interview, not because you may offend your employer, but because it reflects poorly on you. I humbly ask that you replace the word "damn" on your page with something else, and that we put this minor thing behind us so that we can continue to work together on our project. --Aristeo 18:51, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

First Point: You should not edit other people's user pages. Aristeo had the option of dropping me a message. He didn't. While I've offered criticisms of other people's users pages before, those criticisms were on their talk page -- i.e., I certainly didn't make the change myself. Had the offense been large enough, yeah I would have -- but that would have had to be near vandalism level and I would have called in other people for discussion. Again, Aristeo did not.

Second point: the level of profanity of "damn". So, you think "damn" is too much for people going through a site dedicated to ES games? Let's do a quick text search of Oblivion:

• "You're a good man. We could use more like you, that's for damned sure..."
• "The first Arena Blademaster. Best damned warrior that ever lived..."
• "Damn straight. I can only treat myself while feeling flush."
• "We lost the damned city, that's what happened! ..."

And let's not forget the level of bawdiness and general sexual innuendo present in the other games of the series -- games which are also very much a part of this site. E.g., Daggerfall:Rude Song. And one can hardly avoid the fact that even the "cleaned up" Oblivion rewards behavior that is "evil" by most standards -- or did the whole assassins guild thing slip your mind?? And perhaps the necrophiliac Alchemist? That stuff is hardly subtle.

So, get a grip, the ES scrolls games are a set of games with mature content. Sure, there can be reasonable limits on this site (e.g., I've asked people not to directly link to images of armor that exposed genitalia and nipples), but asking people not to say "damn" on their own user page is just ludicrous.

If your whitewashed morals find even the mild profanity of "damn" to be too much, then frankly, it's hypocritical to be an active member of a site dedicated to a series of games which go so far beyond that mild epithet in both sex and violence. --Wrye 23:52, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

In my defense, I didn't think the small edit would be controversial. Because you weren't fully active on UESP, because we have (again, to my knowledge) an unwritten "no profanity" rule on the wiki, and because I thought the edit would be completely uncontroversial, I went ahead and quickly did it myself in attempt to save you from any embarrassment. Obviously, you strongly opposed to edit. First, you reverted your page to personally attack me [2], and then simply reverted to what you had before. After you posted your message on my talk page, I immediately looked for for a mediator, Nephele, to help settle the argument by giving a third opinion. [3] I did not reinstate my edit, because it was obviously contested. Up until now, I have been trying to come to a diplomatic agreement with you, which is something you do not seem to be interested in.

Now the argument seems to be whether or not profanity should be allowed on UESP, and if so, to what degree. If you can keep calm and stay civil during the discussion, you are more than welcome to give your opinion on the matter. Keep in mind that you may or may not have to change your user page depending on what the consensus results to. (I predict that Daveh will have to be called in to make the final call, but that's neither here nor there.) I look forward to your future contributions to our project, Wrye, and if you need anything, feel free to let me know. --Aristeo 10:41, 1 September 2006 (EDT)

So, you're playing the "offended victim" card? Why am I not surprised? And as an example of lack of civility, you draw attention to a "personal attack" which I immediately overwrote? That's like complaining that the fire is too hot and then throwing another log on! (And of course you're interpreting a "don't do that again" warning as a "personal attack".)

If you had truly wanted to cool things down you would have apologized for editing my user page. Something simple like "Wrye, I apologize for editing your web page. I should have asked you first, but I didn't. My bad." That would do it. That wouldn't have changed the points of the discussion, but it would have at least removed the heat from my end.

Rather than wade off into larger issues (e.g., "whether or not and to what degree profanity is allowed at UESP"), let's stay focused on this particular incident. Dealing with that larger issue will require a lot more time and discussion then most of us want to spend. And it seems to me that that your objection to "damn" on a user page is so patently ludicrous (for the reasons given above), that the issue should be able to be put to rest relatively easily. Of course, I could be wrong about that, and perhaps we'll end up being dragged into a longer discussion by the time this is over. --Wrye 14:29, 1 September 2006 (EDT)

Help with Morrowind:Places Pics

I've been moving some stuff around on the Morrowind:Places page, and I've realized that it really needs some pictures. You've made quite a few tomb maps on the main quest page, and they look very good. If you have any time to make a few more, the ancestral tombs and daedric shrines could really use your help. I don't have the game for the computer and you're the one I know of that's made any maps for morrowind, so you're the first person I've asked. If you know of anyone else who makes decent maps, please give me the name, and I'll pass on the word. — Unsigned comment by Werdnanoslen (talk • contribs)

Daveh is the one who made the pictures I uploaded, I just took them from the old site. --Aristeo 14:32, 27 August 2006 (EDT)

Ok, I'll ask him.

BUILDING UP FAME, ETC.

Hello, I've been trying to Google all over to find HELP... your site has been fantastic and helped so much. I am however having such difficulty in building up my fame. and for the life of me I can NOT figure out how to mix spells to conjure (sorry bout spelling) anything. i feel like I'm not going to get the full fun out of the game because i cant do the spell things. can u please help me on these topics, and help me to learn to gain my alchemy levels and all the others. thank you... --Robin Stoute

i look forward to your response ASAP, as we (my fiance and I are NOW ADDICTED TO THIS GAME..LOL) take care.

Oblivion:Fame_Points may help you rise your fame some. Finishing the main quest and becoming grand champion of the arena will give you around 70 points. --Aristeo 19:11, 30 August 2006 (EDT)

Editing Other People's User Pages

You're right. We shouldn't put any further energy into this discussion. I'm sorry that the edit made you upset and I'm sorry if anything I mentioned offended you, as it certainly wasn't my intention. Let's just continue to be friends, and work on continuing our progress on UESP. :) --Aristeo 15:51, 1 September 2006 (EDT)

I'm also archiving this into September so it's easier for me to concentrate on what I want to edit. --Aristeo 15:55, 1 September 2006 (EDT)

Fair enough. Thank you. Now, back to work (and play)! --Wrye 19:52, 1 September 2006 (EDT)

RSS Icon

I thought I would continue the line of esthetic suggestions I have been making of late with a further addendum: an RSS icon. I am unaware whether or not such an icon can be added, or if it is even desired, however, I have remained ignorant of the RSS feed the UESP was running due largely to the lack of any prominent dispaly of such; naturally, an icon for such would improve its visibility.

With that in mind I threw together the following icons (with a capital, lowercase, and blank caption) for your perusal, lest you should find it meet to include one: RSS Icon Sheet. Thanks for your time. -- Booyah boy 05:40, 2 September 2006 (EDT)

I'm sure we could add one, but where would we put it? --Aristeo 09:40, 2 September 2006 (EDT)

I really can't say...um, you're the administrator, I suppose it's your call. -- Booyah boy 09:53, 2 September 2006 (EDT)

On the Recent Changes list, maybe one of the images could replace "rss" on the toolbox. We'd have to replace "atom" as well though. I also want to talk to more people before making that change. --Aristeo 10:00, 2 September 2006 (EDT)

Sounds good. Would you like me to come up with some ATOM icons? -- Booyah boy 10:01, 2 September 2006 (EDT)

Sure, that would be great. --Aristeo 10:12, 2 September 2006 (EDT)

Alright, here are some icons for you. I was unable to locate a "ATOM" specific icon (that is, one immediately associated with such), and thus was forced to use whatever struck me as appropriate. Here they are.

I made the icons in two distinct color-schemes, the basic orange (the standard for XML related icons) and an alternate blue-ish one, in fitting with the site's color motif. I could make up some others if nothing here will serve. Any thoughts?

-- Booyah boy 08:32, 3 September 2006 (EDT)

CC Icon

While I am at it, I might as well throw one more minor suggestion your way: Could you replace the current CC "Some Rights Reserved" icon (in the lower left-hand corner) with that which I am providing here.

The dominant color of this page being blue (links, many images, and even the grays in the background are a part of the blue-scale) I modified the spectrum of said icon from green-scale to blue, and added a bottom line (if you zoom in on the image, you will see a line at the top that is removed by one pixel from each side, I merely added such to the bottom as well, giving it a more well-rounded appearance). You may view the current icon and the modified one side-by-side here. Again, nothing pressing or important... -- Booyah boy 06:00, 2 September 2006 (EDT)

Sure, feel free to upload it. The image is being held at Image:Somerights.png --Aristeo 09:35, 2 September 2006 (EDT)

Great, it will be up in roughly two minutes. -- Booyah boy 09:53, 2 September 2006 (EDT)

As long as I am answering above, I'll wrap this up by stating that it's up and running...and, quite frankly, looks better than before. Thanks! -- Booyah boy 08:32, 3 September 2006 (EDT)

Privacy Policy

In conjunction with the Disclaimer, I thought I'd get a head start on writing a Privacy Policy for the site, however, I require an administrators input on certain aspects of UESP policy, and thus, would appreciate your taking a moment to respond as you may: UESPWiki talk:Privacy policy/editcopy Thanks for your time, Aristeo. -- Booyah boy 03:10, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

The rough-draft is posted in my sandbox. While I did post a link to such on the UESPWiki talk:Privacy policy/editcopy page, I'm dropping you a line herein as well to make sure you see it (Nephele is deleting a large amount of duplicated books at the moment, thus my edit may be covered in the Recent Changes list). I'm feeling a little punchy at the moment (still being rather ill, and quite exhausted), however, I believe I managed to cover the essentials in a proper manner. Kindly get back to me with your comments on the Privacy Policy talk page or my own. Thank you... -- Booyah boy 18:26, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

A Small Favor: Feedback

Hey Aristeo, I just completed posting a further suggestion on the Community Portal - specifically regarding the Tamriel:Books section - and would appreciate your feedback on such, as an administrator and my mentor. Thus, if you find yourself with a moment to spare, I'd appreciate your stopping by and chiming in on the subject. Thanks!

PostScript: Naturally, feel free to delete this at your leisure. Again, my thanks...
-- Booyah boy 09:58, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

I just gave you my feedback, but it may or may not be exactly what you want to see. --Aristeo 14:19, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

Any feedback whatsoever is what I was looking for, thus, thank you for responding. I too have since responded to the points raised both by you and TheRealLurlock, and would appreciate your stopping by once more.

Secondly, have you been able to make any progress on answering my queries regarding the Privacy Policy?

-- Booyah boy 02:51, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

Yep, just did! You caught me in the middle of looking over your draft. --Aristeo 19:55, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

Featured Article Icon Conflict

Just wanted to bring to your attention the fact that the text string in the upper-right hand corner of the page ("Please join us in our chatroom to discuss the site, the Elder Scrolls, or anything else you want to bring up") conflicts with the "featured article" template (covers the star). Check General:Fishy Stick article to see what I mean. -- Booyah boy 09:08, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

Should be fixed now. --Aristeo 10:07, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

UESP Forums

Good day Aristeo, I'm dropping you a line to inform you of some rather objectionable content being posted at the forums - as you are a moderator therein - at the following pages. Removed and removed.

Also, while you're at it, I'd also like to give you a heads up to the message I posted therein as regards the forum descriptors: here. It seems to have double-posted, thus, feel free to delete either if it be in your power to do so. Thanks.

It should all be taken care of now. --Aristeo 10:11, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

Great, thank you for the prompt reply and swift action. -- Booyah boy 10:14, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

Question of Credit

The Arena:Items page begins with the following text:
"The following is an excellent item list originally created by Monte Bascom and currently contains close to 2200 items."
As I will be taking some time this week to work on wikifying the Arena section (having finished the War Axes section a moment ago), I had planned on redoing said page, but am somewhat stymied as to crediting Mr. Bascom with the original list's creation. You see, I plan to extend the list of items as much as possible (and, considering the game, this could amount to the inclusion of several hundred items) and - certainly - others will do so at a later point in time; thus, I wonder if it is truly appropriate in a wiki setting to credit the "original" list creator.

Quite apart from the fact that, soon, his work will no longer resemble its original format, nor will it consist solely of such, there is also the matter of the UESP's license (that is, the inclusion of his work herein constitutes a heading under the A-SA License and a right to modification, alteration, or removal by any other editor). Furthermore, the fact that no other editor is credited on the article page itself leads me to believe that the mention of a proper name for a man who - despite the breadth of his contribution - did no more than any other editor in compiling and submitting data is, somehow, wrong.

Might I ask for your thoughts on the matter, both as an administrator and one who has been here much longer than myself. -- Booyah boy 11:32, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

Just remove the attribution, noting Monte Bascom and the removal of the attribution in the edit summary. --Aristeo 23:45, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

Done. Thank you for the clarification. -- Booyah boy 06:09, 15 September 2006 (EDT)

a really stupid question

i'm breking my head and i still ould not find the way i trow something... i mean... what do i have to do to throw an item... always i'm over-encumbred i must quickload because i don't know how tothrow my item away! pliz answer me fastly

I'll assume you are referring to Oblivion. You pick up an item on the PC by holding down "Z". Once you let go of "Z", you drop whatever you are carrying. If your moving while carrying something, it will take off in whatever direction you are going. The mouse has the same concept. --Aristeo 12:48, 14 September 2006 (EDT)

If you're asking about throwing an object that's hanging in front of you, Aristeo covered it. If you're asking how to drop items from your inventory (you mentioned being over encumbered), then on PC it's hold the SHIFT key and left click the item to drop it. I don't know about the Xbox 360 version. Quillan^Talk 14:13, 14 September 2006 (EDT)

"Hidden" Template

I was wondering if it would be possible to have you - or any other administrator - add the Hidden template to the UESP. You can see the template set up here, or view an actual use of such in the Why doesn't this work? section on this page. I am certain it would be useful on numerous pages...not to count, it's pretty neat and I'd love to use such on my user page! -- Booyah boy 06:09, 15 September 2006 (EDT)

I thought we already set this up for the Monobook.css users a while ago. I'm not sure what's wrong with it; I'll mess with it some in the morning. --Aristeo 01:13, 17 September 2006 (EDT)

Happy Birthday!

Moved cookie to cookie jar

Hehe, thanks a bunch! I'm glad someone didn't forget about it. ;) --Aristeo 01:15, 17 September 2006 (EDT)

Can't complete Quest

Alright, so I used the coc testinghall command and started to poke around. I found a Mage's staff there and it updated some quest in my journal that I hadn't yet started: the Mage's Staff quest.

Then, when I went to go speak with Raminus Polus at the Arcane University, he updated my level to journeyman but never gave me the quest for the Mage's staff. Now, every time I speak with him, he tells me to make my mage's staff but the dialogue never gives me the option to talk to him about the quest. What I mean is that I can't advance any further in the Mage's guild not matter what I try.

I went to the caves for the mission like I am supposed to do - as I had to figure out myself, but although I was attacked by necromancers, my questlog never updated, and I found Zahrasha and Elette alive...

I tried to use the setstage command to update the quest myself, and I even killed Zahrasha and Elette just so everything fit...however it still did not update the questlog and when I speak to Polus he just says the same thing....

Please tell me there is something that I can do. I don't want to be stuck and not be able to advance in the Mage's Guild.....

Drangsorian 13:19, 18 September 2006 (EDT)

If you start using console commands to artificially change the game, there is a serious risk that you will mess up the game to the point where you can't fix things. That said, though: have you actually done all of the mages guild recommendation quests? You're not supposed to receive the staff until you have completed all seven recommendation quests. Once you've done all of those, try following the rest of the steps on A Mage's Staff: in particular, go talk to Delmar instead of Raminus and see whether he will take the staff. If none of that works, go back to a save game from before you started messing with the console, and try doing the quest the normal way: things go alot more smoothly that way. --Nephele 13:34, 18 September 2006 (EDT)

You've probably screwed things up. Look in the construction set, look at what picking up the staff did to your game, and undo those commands. Good luck, and may the nine have mercy on your (character's) soul. --Aristeo 14:40, 18 September 2006 (EDT)

Hidden Template

Any luck working out the Hidden template I posted about before? It seems you archived the discussion ere any resolution was reached (see here). -- Booyah boy 21:04, 20 September 2006 (EDT)

Hehe, I guess I did. Sorry about that. I'm trying to set up the template as we speak at Template:Showhide. --Aristeo 21:26, 20 September 2006 (EDT)

I can't get it to work, and neither could Garrett. If you have any ideas on how to get this to work, please tell them to me. Otherwise, I'm going to propose this for deletion. --Aristeo 21:49, 20 September 2006 (EDT)

Hmmm...do you have both the relevant CSS and Javascript added (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Hidden included herein)? -- Booyah boy 23:46, 20 September 2006 (EDT)

Looks like I forgot a section that they added addendum. Should be working now. --Aristeo 00:00, 21 September 2006 (EDT)

Just wanted to drop you a quick note - and thanks - that it is working now. In order to function, however, you must specify the 1 and 2 references. For instance, the code to display the "Current Projects" listing on my user page is as follows:

{{showhide|1=[[User:Booyah boy/CProjects|Current Projects]]|2={{User:Booyah boy/CProjects}}}}

It's a little more of a hassle than merely writing in "hide|User:Booyah boy/CProjects" as the original was intended to work, however, I understand from reading on Wikipedia's discussion for said template that this is not an unusual recourse. Thanks again. -- Booyah boy 01:44, 22 September 2006 (EDT)

Try {{showhide|[[User:Booyah boy/CProjects|Current Projects]]|{{User:Booyah boy/CProjects}}}} without the 1= and 2=. And on a more important note, I'm glad we got it working. --Aristeo 01:50, 22 September 2006 (EDT)