Semi Protection

Skyrim talk:Smithing/Archive 1

The UESPWiki – Your source for The Elder Scrolls since 1995
Jump to: navigation, search
This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Smithing discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Contents

Create page

I saw that Elliot said we could create pages, but it still says that I'm not allowed. If it is only for Administraters or patrollers etc. I'm sorry. But if someone wants to create a pickpocketing page, I have a list of all the perks for it on my User page. Thanks. RIM 19:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

It's on a blacklist at the moment. Elliot is on about removing it so it's just that anons can't create and edit (i think) and think under 'Skyrim'. It is only Admins at the moment though. --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 20:06, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks:), I have the perk tree for pickpocketing too so if anybody needs it it can be copied and pasted from me. RIM 20:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Verifying the 'Custom items' statement

On the page, it claims that hides can be used to customize your items, and I'd like to know an official source for this before I start telling people about it. UESP is usually very professional, but seeing as how there is very little information about the game so far, and the source for this info isn't cited on the page, I'd like to know where the person who added it got this information from. — Unsigned comment by 76.20.221.160 (talk) on 9 October 2011

First, as the banner at the top of the article says, all information is preliminary and subject to change. The only way to be completely certain about any game facts is to wait until the game is released.
The statement about using hides is a summary of several statements I've seen about how Smithing works. For example, a Videogamer preview says:
"Kill a wolf, for example, and you can skin him for his hide, which you can then take to a tannery and turn into leather to use as material to design leather-hilted axes and daggers."
If you prefer hard-copy sources, the PC Gamer Skyrim article says, in reference to "an animal hide" found at a crafting station:
"... here you'd take leather and make leather strips... you'd then use leather strips to make your own swords and stuff like that."
It also says:
"You could get other items from the tanning rack and combine them all to create weapons and armor."
--NepheleTalk 03:46, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

To clarify what "custom item creation" really means, take note that it's not truly custom. Since the game has now been released, it is likely well known that it's a very limited concept compared to what the idea behind "custom" stipulates. IE: You skin a wolf, tan his hide to make leather. However, you can go a step further. Instead of making leather, you can cut the leather into strips. These strips can be used as straps for the "various" armors you yourself can craft when the necessary perks are taken. This is the same for weapons. A "leather-hilted axe" merely means "I took "A" and turned it into "B", then I took "B", "C", and "D" and turned them into "E". Or simply, "I took leather strips and wrapped them around the hilt of this axe so I can grip it firm and well." (Allephus)12/10/2011 (3:36am)

Sword Sharpening

I understand weapons and armor do not degrade, but if you can sharpen your blades does that mean they become dull after a while of fighting, or does it just increase the damage one time depending on your skill level. Thanks.Apod 18:44, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

No, they just stay at that level until you improve them further. Then when you're smithing skill improves, you can improve your weapons even more and they will never degrade below that new level and so on until your weapon is at the highest improved level possible.RIM 19:05, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
In that case would the swords spawn with a set dullness/sharpness or start at a zero percent until your character brings it to the grind stone. Apod 21:04, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Let's say you find a steel longsword that does 10 damage, it will be at 100% health and it will never degrade any further. Then you can sharpen it to 110% and now it will never degrade below 110% health and it will do more damage. Then you can sharpen it to 120%(if you are skilled enough) and then 130% and so on. Once you sharpen it, it will never degrade below it's new level so basically you permanently increase it's damage and health. I don't know if you can find weapons that have already been sharpened though.RIM 12:50, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Ah, yeah I understand now, it's similar to being an expert armorer in oblivion when you could raise the condition past 100%. Thank you for your help. One more week... Apod 20:44, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Except they've taken weapon condition out of the game entirely. Weapons and armor simply no longer have "condition". They have quality levels now instead. Item durability/health is not a part of this game. 24.237.190.24 18:33, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Maces sharpenning?

I'm wondering, can we also upgrade maces and warhammers at a grindstone? It wouldn't really make sense but on the other hand it would mean that we can't upgrade these weapons. Or do we have to do it at a workbench?— Unsigned comment by 77.84.51.169 (talk) at 18:36 on 5 November 2011

You can sharpen any weapon. Maces usually kill by causing a large impact to organs or other important areas such as blood vessels with effects such as internal bleeding but by sharpening it the mace might cause puncture wounds resulting in blood loss. Workbenches are for improving armour.RIM 20:52, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
“Sharpening” a mace might be improving the flanges (i.e. the bit on the side that help to focuses the impact) or improving the weighting (again increasing how much damage it courses) rather than literally sharpening it.
You can sharpen bows as well. :) --86.9.123.15 03:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

There is only one rank of every perk.

None of them have two ranks. Not a single one. Why, when I try to change this, does someone change it back? Look at the images from all of the prerelease gameplay floating around. 1 rank of each Smithing perk. Whoever is keeping this charade of two ranks a piece is perpetuating a falsehood with malice aforethought. Stop it! 97.103.109.193 02:49, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

The only reliable sources that I've seen show two ranks for each perk. Although it's very possible that it's been changed since the beta version of the game, we'll have to wait for the game is actually released to confirm that. Any other information that you're seeing right now is from a pirated version of the game, which is not a reliable source. I'd rather perpetuate beta-version information than perpetuate illegal information.
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "Why, when I try to change this, does someone change it back?". The edit history of the page does not show any edit, ever, where the number of ranks was changed for any of the perks. Furthermore, none of the edits that you've made to any of the skill pages has been undone. --NepheleTalk 03:10, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
1 as in O-N-E rank for all the smithing perks. — Unsigned comment by 91.113.8.202 (talk) at 12:35 on 6 November 2011
There are two ranks for them as for as official sources have shown. We are sticking with official sources for now. --Kiz ·•· Talk ·•· Contribs ·•· Mail ·•· 12:54, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
It's one rank per perk according to all people that have had a "hands-on" game. If the official information says otherwise, then it is just bogus. The version that has been made available illegally is also the retail version, not a beta. — Unsigned comment by Loufoque (talkcontribs) at 13:17 on 6 November 2011
My neighbor is a reviewer and has an official copy of the game for the Xbox. One rank per perk. 174.109.111.197 18:44, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

() Well, we'll update it as soon as he posts a review with this information in it. Or, better yet, when the game is released this Friday. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 18:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Skyrim broke street date in Australia yesterday (final release). I confirm there is only one rank per smithing perk. Updated accordingly. Back to gaming... --Alienangel 11 November 2011
"Illegal information." oO --188.109.121.159 22:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Power Leveling Section

"Power leveling Theory

Continually switch forges, buy out all iron ignots and leather strips, then produce as many iron daggers as possible and sell the daggers back to the forge master. Keep doing this at every forge possible and you will easily level up smithing. For those with less money, you may mine your own iron ore, but it is less effective, as it slows time.

Hunt animals for hides, process these into leather and leather strips at a tanning rack, then use the forge to craft leather bracers. Enchant bracers to level enchanting at the same time. Sell to level speech and make some gold."

Is this section really necessary? I mean, it's pretty obvious that you would level your smithing faster by getting items and crafting them into things. The only thing it really tells me is that Iron Daggers and Leather Bracers are some of the best possible options. But I don't see a Power Leveling section on Enchanting or Alchemy, let alone on any pages in Oblivion for those skills.

If anything I'd expect a page like this: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Increasing_Skills to be started on instead of putting the leveling tips on each page as it makes it easier to find and leaves the skill pages for explaining the hard facts about the skills instead of suggestions and such 76.115.250.108 12:15, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

It's not even that good of a method of power leveling your smithing. If you are willing to use a bit of alteration magic, get yourself transmute. Then upgrade all your iron ore into gold ore, and from there smelt that down to gold ingots that you then use in the forge to create gold rings. This way not only will you be working on your smithing, but your alteration too. You'll also net a profit in the end. Of course this method is a bit mana intensive, meaning that if you haven't upped your magic reserves at all, you'll only be able to cast transmute once before needing to let your pool recharge. Sort of annoying if you consider that you have to cast the smell 4 times to get enough gold ore for a single ingot. Syntic 13:01, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree, so I removed it and added a section to the "Notes" about this method, because it is the fastest. Baron 01:47, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Rings vs Necklaces?

It says in the notes section that one ingot is used for necklaces and rings, but it doesn't say that you get two rings with one ingot. I just started the game so have only been able to make silver jewelry, but the value of the two rings added together is the same as the value of the necklace, so is this statement even true, let alone necessary? If someone who knows what they are doing could remove that statement, or edit it to reflect the truth, I'm afraid I don't know how... 24.9.7.137 06:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

That note needs to be removed, the one ingot for two rings is the same as the necklace. As well as the fact two rings is twice the objects you can enchant ;) 75.150.195.86 15:04, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Not sure why neither of you removed it if you felt it should be removed, but I went ahead and got rid of it. Baron 17:04, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks Baron, when I tried to do it yesterday I couldn't get the edit screen to show me any text I could edit, when I looked again just now, it was all there. weird. 24.9.7.137 06:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Any qualities beyond Legendary?

Have smithing maxed at 100 (like a BAWS)

Can smithing improvement gloves/etc. be used to create anything better than legendary?

Legendary is the highest quality. Baron 12:14, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
you can continue to improve the att/def of items with plus smithing enchants and potions after 100.

Works on Armor Hand Neck and Ring. Active effects list ring x3 instead of each piece of gear. i only had one potion of 20% so dont know if more can be added or stronger potion. Glass Armor with +100% went to 90 Def. legomike

My alchemy skill and perks have me making 71% potions. And there are stock potions for 50%+ in the game. 24.156.216.144 14:14, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Smithing upgrades seem to have a cap somewhere around 230 skill, can anyone confirm exactly where? Or perhaps the values do not scale linearly? -91.153.22.204 18:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
If it`s something about 230, can be 255, as it was with characters, attributes and skills in Oblivion - It was the highest level to reach (using console, obviously) — Unsigned comment by 93.154.180.34 (talk) at 17:48 on January 9, 2012

Effects for improving weapons?

I see someone added columns to the chart showing the amount of bonus given to torso armor and the other pieces. Does anyone have any data on the amount of bonus given to weapons? Is it different for daggers, maces, warhammers, bows, etc? --QuillanTalk 18:14, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


i just got my daedric curiass to 348, idk if theres a cap or not but i havent hit it yet. im currently looking for some good smithing enhancment items (shouldve done enchanting :/ ) 10:43, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

daedra hearts

Anyone find a somewhat steady supply for daedra hearts to craft daedric items? other than ingrediant merchants that is. If there is some way to get them possibly put it in the notes section JJ Lopez

The Azura's Star quest line gives you 3-5 Daedra Hearts, as well as the ingredient vendors as you mentioned. Baron 08:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Enthir at the college of Winterhold sells two Daedra heart at a time and restocks about every two days. You can find him either in the courtyard of the college or in his room in the Hall of Attainment second level. - Simnos.
Also at the College of Winterhold you can use the Atronach Forge down the midden to create them; if I remember what I read correctly it requires a black soul gem and a human heart. Of course, neither of those is exactly common so I don't know if it's worth doing. --QuillanTalk 19:23, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
I found daedra heart constantly respawning at Kodlak's room in Jorvaskr, after i completed companions quest line. - Riot

Just found that the Dremora at the shine to mehrunes dagon respawn. good way of making money and a steady supply of deadra hearts for armour weapons. --J.J.-Lopez 01:03, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Which branch to take

Should the note about going up the right side be edited? Yes the right side has stronger armor, however it is all heavy armor. For a light armor type person like myself, the left tree was a much better choice. Just a thought.

There's no reason to use Light Armor over Heavy Armor. Once you get the Weightless perk for Heavy Armor it is better in every way than Light Armor, unfortunately. Also, as the note says, going up the right side gives you access to Daedric weapons, which at their base are better than Glass weapons. Baron 07:59, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
I disagree with this statement, Baron. If you're a sneaky type (at least a GOOD sneaky type), you won't get hit enough to ever level your heavy armor skill to the necessary 70 to get the Weightless perk. Until then it'll make more noise than light and seriously impact your carrying capacity due to the increased weight. For a combat character I'd agree, heavy > light armor. --QuillanTalk 15:49, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
The Wind Walker perk is also quite usefull --Lex 23:20, 18 November 2011 (UTC+1)
Isn't it also untrue that the right side is all Heavy Armor? The strongest Light Armor smithing is Dragon Smithing. 81.233.217.129 08:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Dragon Smithing is both heavy armor and light armor. Baron 08:34, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
My personal belief is that the answer to the question "what is your character using?" is also the answer to which path to take, if you're only going to take one. However, I will say that the left path produces substandard weaponry in the long run. Glass weapons are good, but they just don't compare to ebony or daedric. I went the right path but also took elven smithing because elven weapons are slightly better than dwarven and quite a bit better than orcish.--QuillanTalk 19:31, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

My major qualm with the statement is that this path requires you to spend a lot of skill perks in HA (or armour at all) to make it absolutely superior (which it then will become, agreed). But if you have a few other points of interest, you may run out of perk points to do so (you need one extra for smithing plus some more for getting heavy armour to work as described). As a level 41 sneaky arch(ery)mage I have yet to have extra perk points for armour at all - and you would need 3 armour (plus 1 smithing) perk you'll miss somewhere else. You'll get better self constructed weaponry, but that's it, the other perks may be completely wasted (Boosting unarmed attack? Halving damage from falling? Both not really convincing, are they?). So while this may generally be a true statement for smithing inclined characters, it is far from the absolute truth. --93.232.179.72 05:39, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

No it doesn't; at most, you 'waste' one perk. Let's say you're more interested in light armor. You're still better served going down the heavy armor branch. You get the better weaponry and the same top-level light armor. "But what ever will I do until I get to Dragon Armor?" you ask. The same thing anyone that isn't Smithing does - find it or buy it. In addition, you'll have something to do with all those Dwarven Metal Ingots you'll have laying around: make something for profit and to level your Smithing. So the trade-off is one perk to complete the right side for superior weaponry. Considering that you generally survive by killing your foes, superior weaponry seems worth it. --Fluff 06:17, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Question: are you able to learn Daedric smithing from the dragon armour? IE, go up the light path to dragon armour, then down one of the heavy paths to get Daedric? Because, if this is the case, then what path you go down doesn't matter, as to get both Daedric and Dragon requires 6 perks (including steel). I'm a little disappointed that the light path has two armour only perks that have no weapons but heavy armour, and the heavy armour tree gets only heavy armour and the best weapons, seems a little uneven.--Kratch 17:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

No, you cannot circle around after Dragon Armor. I agree that the Light Armor path is disappointing. Advanced Armor is probably the most useless perk ever. "Hey, over here in the Light Armor smithing side, you can learn to smith a Heavy Armor!" --Fluff 17:45, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Is this still true, you are not able to learn Daedric smithing from the dragon armour? There is a rumor (on youtube) that with the 1.3 patch you can now go back down the tree. Can someone please confirm 65.215.93.238 12:56, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
It's still true. Kai Heilos 08:21, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
"Rumors on youtube..." The perk trees are not circles. Each and every perk has a prerequisite perk. The only way to circumvent this is to use a mod that removes these prerequisites. Kastagir 01:37, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

You're right about that (only one perk even if you're going for LA). I should point out, though, that one of the reasonings for HA is that it is strictly superior with the right perks, which is correct, but that way wastes perks to reach this state. I was probably mixing up those two aspects. --93.232.183.243 21:53, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I have been slowly upgrading my armor type for some time now. So far, I repel almost 90% of my damage. I have seen no such cap with my heavy armor skill at 100 and my smithing at 100. My Armor Rating is 672 with full Daedric Armor. Just as well, smithing, from what I have seen, is the best decision for anyone. By just crafting and selling off and crafting some more, you literally gain more than 5 levels from smithing alone. As a Heavy Armor wearer, and a light caster, I can get up to 800 in my Armor Rating. Since I play sneaky as well, and at level 50 it's well advised when dungeon crawling to do so, all I need to do is duel cast muffle and voilà...I'm virtually undetectable. Since my sneaking skill is already very high as well, the enemy doesn't notice me until I'm right behind them. I'm just saying, Baron is quite accurate when he says their is really no reason to go with LA. The best benefits you can receive are either no armor or from HA. I do have a question though: The only way I've been experimenting with increasing my armor rating is with enchanting, since I managed to cap that out too.


Question: If I take a Blacksmith's Elixir or something to the effect of, and "re-craft" my Daedric Armor, will the armor then receive a higher base? Answer: Yes. I can wear a ring of fortify smithing, necklace of fortify smithing and take a potion of fortify smithing and modify my improvements by the appropriate multiplier. This can give a +10 or greater bonus to your current armor or weapon beyond Exquisite or Legendary.


UPDATED(Allephus) 12/10/2011 10:05pm


Only at low levels with your character is Heavy armor better. In the long run though, light armor becomes more superior (in my opinion). The reason for this shift between heavy and light armor superiority is that there is a cap on the maximum armor rating you can have in the game (567 armor rating, damage reduction of 80%), which is possible to achieve with light armor. So if your planning on playing your character out to higher levels, forget about armor ratings for a minute and only look at their perks.

–Light armor–                                      –Heavy armor–
 •Stamina can regenerate 50% faster                 •10% chance to reflect melee damage back to the enemy (Reflect Blows)
  in all light armor (Wind Walker)                  •50% less stagger time when wearing only heavy armor (Tower of Strength)
 •10% chance of avoiding all damage                 •Half damage from falling (Cushioned)
  from a melee attack (Deft Movement)               •Unarmed attacks with heavy armor gauntlets do their armor rating in extra
                                                     damage (Fist of Steel) 

-by: AxelhermAn


Heavy armour<Light armour They both hit the percentage cap. The windwalker perk is a constant pleasantry too.<---only determining factor for me.(or respite)

Please note that the question is not "Heavy Armor vs. Light Armor". The question is "which branch of Smithing to take". This includes the weaponry one can create by Smithing, as well as the improvements one can make with Smithing. In general, I still think the Heavy Armor branch of Smithing is the better one if you're planning to invest in one or the other. You can still get Dragon Armor for top-tier Light Armor. It gets better weaponry. If you plan on wearing Dragon Masks, the improvement benefits from Daedric Smithing. I wouldn't be surprised if most daedric artifacts benefit from Daedric Smithing. However, if you want to save the maximum amount of perks, just take Elven Smithing and be done with it. You can still hit the armor cap and the weaponry isn't that much worse than daedric weaponry. --Fluff 17:43, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Opinions on which type of armor are not relevant to the Smithing skill or its perks. In any event, any such judgement is highly subjective. The armor perks are sufficiently different to allow for attracting a different style of play. It is not for one person to say which is better, only what they 'prefer.' I for one hope and believe that Bethesda will adjust the system so there is a more profound difference between light and heavy armor, making the choice defined by more than the perks. Kastagir 19:28, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Fortify Smithing

Does this effect increase the statistics of an item when you make it or does it just increase the improvements made at the grindstone and workbench? Olioster 15:39, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I think it increases your effective skill. Another site has a chart for the improvements that goes well beyond 100 smithing skill, and shows higher improvements at higher skill levels. I have no idea how far it goes. However, I will say this much: when my first character reached 100 smithing, I made and improved an Ebony Mace for myself, since the damage for the ebony was the same as the daedric. I had a necklace that added 12% to smithing, but didn't use it then. Later, when I was making a Daedric War Axe, I had disenchanted that necklace, enchanted another as well as two pieces of leather armor to 8% each, and used all of those plus a smithing potion for the improvement. When I did, I discovered that I could improve the ebony mace yet again, to higher than it was before. There is definitely some category higher than 100 smithing. --QuillanTalk 15:53, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, even if the item is Legendary quality, it can still be improved upon, and there does not appear to be a cap on how far the improvement can go, so potions and enchantments that fortify smithing, perks and smithing skill can combine to make weapons and armor that have exorbitant stats. In theory, a character that perks heavily into crafting can make some of the highest rated weapons and armor possible, through fortified enchantments, fortified potions and max smithing perks and skill. There's also a cross-crafting exploit with enchanting and alchemy that could potentially push the smithing improvements beyond game breaking limits. 24.156.216.144 14:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
What is the Quantitative amount of improvement? I would assume something like (base damage)*(1+0.4*smithing level/100) but this does not fit with the "Fine", "Flawless", "Legendary", etc. scale.

To directly answer your question, it only affects improvements made at the grindstone/workbench. Items stats can also be increased with fortify smithing enchants/potions, though the name will remain legendary.

Materials

It might be useful to provide a list of what crafting items correspond to which item types i.e. Leather to Hide Armour Iron Ingot to Iron Armour Steel Ingot to Steel Armour Refined Malachite for Glass... etc.

I completely agree with you, However, your use of "i.e." was incorrect. I.E. means "id est" which is Latin for "that is" meaning you are stating something very specific. I think you meant to use "E.G." which means exempli gratia which, in English, translates into "for the sake of example" meaning you are listing off a few examples, no more. While that has nothing to do with your question in any way, it still drove me insane. I do, of course agree with your suggestion, though. And it might also be useful to give examples of steady sources of these things. I can't find ebony anywhere, and it's driving me nuts! I need ebony!--M45T3R594RT4N 06:41, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Steel Smithing

I recently aquired the steel smithing perk and am unable to smith steel...does anyone else have this problem? How do I fix this? I have reached level 30 smithing.

216.167.237.76 01:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)confused smith216.167.237.76 01:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

At a guess, you either didn't confirm the selection of the perk (in which case you don't actually have it yet, I did that once, open your skills and see if you have any unspent perks) or you are lacking one or more materials to make it. If you have the perk, there should be a category at the forge interface named Steel. If you're lacking materials then the choices will be greyed out. --QuillanTalk 16:30, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Legendary pt. 2/3/4/5/etc

Apparently (according to other wiki's and my personal experience), there are more than one tiers of Legendary. I have 100 smithing and the correct perks, and I was able to upgrade my legendary daedric sword to legendary (but two damage points higher) by wearing 20% boost smithing gauntlets... Somebody with the construction kit look into this. Stouf761 14:04, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Not out just yet, but yes there are tier(s) above basic Legendary. I've got two 12% smithing items and two 10% smithing items, which allow some nice improvement. Tossing a 40-50% potion on top of those allows still more improvement. I'm just not sure if the data table on the other wiki is correct. --QuillanTalk 18:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
That's true, look up some crazy smithing and enchanting videos - you can boost a Daedric dagger to 100 dmg or more. The limit is very high and you can boost smithing via potions and enchanting armor. --147.251.215.82 20:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I'd don't believe it would be possible to boost a dagger's damage to 100. I've got 100 smithing and about 60% fortify smithing items, plus a 30% potion, and I could only get a glass SWORD to 40 damage.
I can get a glass sword to 80 without any kind of +smithing enchants. But you can get a weapons damage to anything you want by taking advantage of the bugged potion system. Just depends on how much time you want to put into it. Apparently the most damage you can get out of a deadric swords without the time spent vs. damage increase being ridiculously low is 1200 dmg per hit. There is an article on it on the official bethesda forums anyway... 213.81.109.62 01:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
A note to everyone discussing exact numbers on weapons: Those numbers are modified by your skill and/or any relevant enchantments you may have. It's pretty easy to get a dagger over 100 damage... if you have 100 skill, lots of perks, and two or three items with a 40% or more bonus each. --129.49.21.175 03:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I've been wondering this since I have a ring for +17% smithing but when I wear it or don't wear it, there is no difference in the stats of "legendary" items I can craft. That is to say, the same armour crafted with or without the ring gets the same stats so long as I can reach the grade of legendary, however a lot of things I have read do seem to indicate tiers of legendary. I'm going to test this some more tonight, as mentioned above, it's hard to know if people just have maxed enchants and skills to boost their weapon stats.
To answer your question, 17% might not be enough, because it enhances your previous improvement by 17%, so it could be less than 1... Also, Fortify Smithing has a reachability cap of 4x29% +147% potion = 253% enhanced armor/weapon improving, after that, there is no higher tier of Legendary. It's possible to create immense weapons with such a bonus, for example my bow does over 700 damage with a falmer helmet over my circlet, which i refuse to wear hehe :p Beware of your equipment though, it takes the challenge out of Master -Barragor 19:46, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

SIDES IN SMITHING

i was wondering, your choice is smithing (right-left), is permanent..?i mean if u choose heavy than u cant smith light and the opposite???

If you start taking heavy armor smithing perks, they wont stop you from gaining light armor smithing perks later Andil the mage 19:19, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
You can get both...did it myself. It's not very wise to waste the perk points though, so I'd just pick one and stick with it. No respending perk points, so only if you're playing the PC version can you remove/add perks through the console.i would recomend getting both if you (like me) have alot of followers who you can give armour and weapons to as you can make them light armour and you can make yourself the better heavy armour. th whole time you will be improving your smithing. Oblivionfreak99 13:22, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Random armor/weapon loot

Just curiosity on my part here: has anyone randomly found any pieces of daedric armor or weaponry aside from arrows? If so, how much and what level were you? My orc is level 44, and I haven't seen a single piece of daedric yet as random loot. I've found a few pieces of ebony armor and weapons in dungeons, and even once ran across a hostile NPC on a road (just called Breton) who was wearing ebony armor/boots/gauntlets, but no daedric thus far aside from what I made myself. Smithing has been well worth the investment to me just for this reason. --QuillanTalk 22:18, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I am hoping that you can find daedric weapons ingame at least. I didn't want to waste points going down to daedric just for weapons.

My character is level 57, and daedric weapons, armor and arrows are starting to show up regularly now.62.235.168.211 19:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

My character is also lvl 57 and i have found daedric sword and bow so far both in chests.. i also received a daedric sword (37 points frost damage) from Ullfric when completing stormcloak's (completed around lvl50) :P

My character is level 67, and I have never found Daedric armor as loot. Weapons, yes, but never armor. I've also never found Dragonplate armor as loot, and only once found a single piece of Dragonscale (the chest piece). Also, I don't think I've found Daedric weapons besides the one-handed swords and axes (no maces, two-handers, or bows). 208.206.3.254 16:06, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I've found some pieces of dragon armor here and there... was with a level ~60 character, it's rare though... I don't know anyting about finding daedric armor pieces, though I might have ignored them since they are easily crafted. -Barragor 19:50, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Found a Daedric sword (unenchanted) at lvl 36 in a chest(Random). Though I was only 35 upon entering. Would guess that 35 is the lower limit on finding any Daedric random loot. Haven't seen another in thirteen levels. ````benadrit

Each type

Should we here add list of all thing that can be made in smith and what we need for it? From Iron to Dragon? --Aleksa 21:36, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

It would be nice to have a crafting page that lists the materials required, their base value, and the final item's base value. But don't do it unless you can make it look good, in a table.
Perhaps try checking the already-existing pages at Forge, Grindstone, and Workbench? --NepheleTalk 07:29, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Certain weapons can't be improved

I know at least three weapons that can't be improved via smithing: Shield of Solitude, Skyforge Steel Dagger and Supple Ancient Nord Bow, I think the article should mention that as a bug. Also, does anyone know if there is a console command to "unlock" these items into making them improveable? :)

I have found Nightingale Blade and Bow can not be improved either. And also Wooden Mask (From Labiryntian) and Diadem of the Savant (although it may be a bug that diadem is classed as light armor instead of clothing) 08:33, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm currently using a "Nightingale Bow (Legendary)". IIRC, both the Bow and the Blade can be improved with Ebony Ingots (if you have the Arcane Blacksmith perk). --84.63.187.133 20:08, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I can only improve the bow. There must be some factor (when it's received?) that makes it impossible to upgrade one or both of these weapons.
I have personally improved both the Nightingale Blade and Bow (they require ebony and void salts if I remember correctly -- it's been a couple weeks since I played that character) as well as the arcane smithing perk, but have found that Wuuthrad cannot be improved. Voraxith 04:34, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
It's actually on the wiki already, but I'll mention it here. The Nightingale Bow can be improved, though the Blade can not, unless you receive it before level 46. Here's the link http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Leveled_Items -Barragor 19:53, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Smithing Master Quest

I know there are some other master quests that open up when you reach 100 skill, like the one that gives you a new spell in destruction. Is there one for smithing, that gives you say, a new craftable item?

I don't know of such but if there is my bet is that it's either given at the Skyforge (may have to complete Companions quest line first) or at forge in Riften (That special one that the smith asks you to get firesalts to "feed" to it). --213.178.104.81 22:20, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
It's not from the smithie at Riften... I have 100 Smith skill and gave him the 10 fire salts. No new quest. -RedKnight 04:31, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

i was wondering the same thing...i have a legendary dragon armor and i went to improve it and it said to me that u dont have the required skill...is there more improveness in weapons and armors???what is the reward for the fire salts quest?i'm about to start wondering all skyrim in every shop...if there is no special reward for that just money or armor no need for all that trouble..!

From all indications, there seem onyl to be 'mastery' quests for the magic schools, no other skills have level-dependent quests. One could consider the SKyforge's awakening something similar, as it allows the forging of new items, but that is more a faction-based quest than skill-based, especially considering that the items it unlocks only require the first perk in smithing.97.81.109.45 08:09, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Improving weapons even more

I had smithing/enchanting/alchemy maxed out, made the 130 percent better smithing potion, and the 4 apparel pieces of 49 percent better smithing. I thought that this way, I could sharpen stuff to the max. (Without mask glitching.) I recently went to improve some new armor pieces, when I noticed that I could improve my previous pieces even further! All of them! I don't know the reason for that, since skills and gear were already maxed. Did anyone else notice this? Does anyone know the reason? 62.235.168.211 19:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I finally found out that this is due to having "Ancient Knowledge". It's supposed to level smithing faster, but instead it increases the efficiency of smithing improvements. Curundir 20:25, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

The Ancient Knowledge effect currently functions in a manner that is not represented by its description. Contrary to what it says, it has no effect on the rate at which Smithing increases, nor does it provide an armor bonus to only dwarven armor. The armor bonus is applied to all armor and the bonus to smithing is in fact a permanent fortify smithing effect. There has been no word from Bethesda on whether it is the description or the implementation that is in error. Also, if your skill improves to a level sufficient to improve an item to a tier beyond what it currently possesses, you can upgrade the item to that tier. Kastagir 21:43, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Smithing for Money:

What is the best way to forge items for profit? For example, how high does speech need to be to balance out the ratio of buying raw materials and selling back a finished product (e.g. dwarf armor?).

71.90.234.87 06:00, 26 November 2011 (UTC) Hairmetalml

The most accessible way to make money through Smithing is to combine it with Enchanting. An iron dagger (fine) enchanted with a petty soul gem and the Damage Stamina enchantment will sell for 200-250 gold with fairly low speech skill. Daedric and Dragon items created at the forge will net a profit even without enchanting, but are not exactly disposable items until the higher levels. Making money is not the purpose of the Smithing skill - it is to allow for access to weapons and armor of a given material type before they would normally be found in the game world. Kastagir 21:50, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Smithing Silver

There doesn't seem to be a smithing perk for it, and it doesn't come up as an option when at forges, and I can't improve silver weapons at grindstones. I have loads of silver ingots, but I can't use them. Is it actually possible to smith with silver?

you can make jewrelly with silver, thats it. (Eddie The Head 13:15, 26 November 2011 (UTC))
Silver swords/greatswords can be found but not crafted. The usefulness of a Silver Longsword (as in Oblivion) is not present in Skyrim - normal weapons can damage all kinds of undead and daedra.Kastagir 04:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
A friend told me to use steel to improve silver weapons, but have not confirmed this myself. — Unsigned comment by 184.158.98.124 (talk) at 05:01 on January 9, 2012

Bugged Fortify Smithing

Wearing multiple smith-increasing items with the same effect (e.g. necklace +20% + bracers +20%) seems to bug out and only applies one of them (seemingly random which ones). Under Active Effects, two fortifications are shown but they are both from exactly the same item. Anyone else having this problem?

Sometimes an item's fortifications even shows as being active when I'm not even wearing the item!

82.23.158.97 23:04, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I am having the same bug (I'm on the Xbox by the way), both with custom-created Fortify Smithing and Alchemy items that provide the same magnitude of effect. When I wear the gear, multiple instances of the same item are listed under Active Effects, or sometimes even the name of an unequipped item of identical magnitude appears instead when I equip just one item. Also my custom-made Fortify Smithing potion won't appear under Active Effects if I'm wearing my Smithing gear. If I unequip the gear, it appears.

I haven't crunched the numbers to see if the full buff is being applied to created items. However I did try removing my gear (I was wearing four Fortify Smithing items) one by one when I was improving some armor, and I had to be wearing all four for the option to improve the armor to appear (white highlighted text) in the Smithing menu, even though Active effects claimed I was wearing three Gauntlets. So it seems there is some effect being applied even when the names in the Active Effects menu are screwed up.

It's a tooltip visual bug. Effects are still applied as they are supposed to be. Kai Heilos 18:47, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

It does appear to be only visual and not effect based. Though I can confirm that is also present on the PS3. ````

Cleaning Up the "Notes" section.

As you all might have noticed the Notes section is getting rather big, and is quickly becoming an unorganized mess. Rather than taking away valuable information we might do well to create new pages or sections concerning among other things: Help leveling up and items that fortify smithing... Tell me what you think Thelastoneusaw 16:30, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

In helping to resolve this problem a bit, here's a chunk out of the notes that should have been a discussion on the talk page: "Some items have a limited evolution cap, meaning you can't refine them over a certain level. For example, the Blades armor won't go above "Exquisite" regardless of your skill. Whether it's a bug or not is unknown. (It's not since you can't get its perk you cannot improve it twice as much.)
[Blade armour can be improved to legendary, if 1. The player has a high blacksmithing skill (such as 100). 2. The player is wearing enchanted clothing which give a bonus to blacksmithing (With a skill level of 100 in enchanting it is possible to make +25% bonus to blacksmithing items e.g. a set of gloves, a ring, a necklace and a main body clothing item. This is without an enchanting potion. With an enchanting potion I've hit +28% blacksmithing), and 3. the player uses a powerful potion which increases blacksmithing skill. With 'perks' spent in the heavy armour tree, blade armour can reach the 567 armour cap and thus give 80% damage reduction]."
--Fluff 00:40, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Another note. If anyone disagrees and thinks any of these should be on the main page, post about it. "The fastest way to train your Smithing skill is to make iron daggers, as they only need 1 iron bar and 1 leather strip to be made.If you're aiming to get to level 100 Smithing, you will need a lot of gold beforehand if you're going to buy the materials. Also, after exhausting a smith's supply of iron bars, iron ore, leather, and/or leather strips, you can wait for 2 days (48 hours) to restock the smith's supply of them. A cheap way of doing this is to craft hide and leather armors at the forge. These require only leather and leather strips, which can be obtained for free through hunting. The plains right outside Whiterun are rich in deer, wolves and in late game even an occasional saber cat. All these yield free leather with an added bonus of improving archery or other combat traits. Also leather armor fetches better prices than iron daggers, racking up gold and speech bonuses each time they are sold."
--Fluff 22:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
I come bearing more notes. "By far the easiest way to increase smithing is to make lots and lots of iron daggers. By fast traveling continuously between three different holds, it is possible to endlessly purchase iron ore, iron ingots and animal hides. (Whiterun should be among these, as the smith and her husband have different shop inventories.)Once a massive amount of materials has been compiled, transform them into iron ingot and leather strips. Then make iron daggers. Even at level 90+ it only takes 10 or 11 daggers to gain a level. Overall, the materials required to get smithing from level 20 to 100 using this method cost less than ten thousand gold. This gold is easily attained using the method below."
"An effective way to raise your Smithing skill is by making jewelry. This method is very good for aspiring smiths short on money, because you can raise your skill and make coin at the same time. A good way to take advantage of this is to head out to places containing a lot Gold or Silver Ore veins (e.g. Kolskeggr Mine which yields 24 gold veins) and use the ore to make jewelry. If you learn the Transmute alteration spell (which can easily be attained from Halted Stream Camp) you can also find or buy iron ore, transmute it into silver and then gold ore, and then smelt it into gold ingots from which you can make jewelry." --Fluff 14:39, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Notched pickaxe does not stack

the effect from the notched pickaxe does not seem to stack with other smithing bonuses, i have the silver blood family ring, and had already upgraded my armor and weapons with it, equiping the pickaxe and the ring did not give me the option to improve it any more, i then bought some gauntlets that let me improve items more, those and the silver blood ring let me upgrade my items, the gauntlets and the pick didnt, as the ring and the pick didnt either. Feedback?

Also on a unrelated note, some artifacts can be upgraded higher than flawless, without smithing bonuses with the perk bonus, for example, my ebony mail can be upgraded to legendary using the ebony smithing perk, using a ebony bar, so it is obviously counted as a ebony cuirass. (Eddie The Head 12:37, 29 November 2011 (UTC))

Is there a CAP to improving items?

I do not know if this is true, but for me seemes that one can only upgrade items up to double their base price (without perk) or up to triple their base price (with a perk), and this is achieved at about 200% smithing, further increase of smithing does not give anything. Am I right? 195.19.39.175 08:37, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I read about a hardcap of approximately 800 armor, anything above is of no use. Do not know if this is true.

There is no cap to the values (damage reduction is capped at 80% but the displayed armor rating will continue to increase). You can test with the console. --Evil4Zerggin 00:34, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Yea, but could you, Evil4Zerggin, answer my initial question about "smithing" cap? (that first strings are mine even if from another IP) 87.228.24.249 08:27, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
There is no smithing cap. You can further increase your smithing skill with Enchants and Potions. I am able to get to 362 with no Smithing perks. I'm not sure if the Smithing perks would get me to 462 effective, or 724 effective skill. 208.206.3.254 22:06, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Why bother with perks?

Unless Bethesda severely alters the whole alchemy/enchanting/smithing triangle with a patch, it seems wasteful to drop any perk points in Smithing.

For one, every single item that has a creation perk is available through alternative means. Even Daedric armor and weaponry will show up in random loot at a high level.

Next, armor has a cap. Improving your armor beyond a certain point is useless.

That armor cap can be reached, theoretically, with any items. The perks are not needed, since you can just uber-fortify your Smithing skill and get to Legendary.

Fortifying weapon damage to obscene levels seems like it would just make the game less enjoyable, unless you're playing the hardest difficulty. (how much do ubersmithed weapons help on the hardest difficulty anyway?)

Since it seems like the perks only offer the benefit of early game access to high level armor, should the page make note that late game optimizing players might just want to skip the two arms of the perk tree? 166.182.3.54 03:08, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

An interesting posit. Really, you're going to have to spend the perks somewhere. Assume a character that has max skill and no perks in either Heavy Armor or Smithing. With Daedric improved through the enchant/alchemy loop, you're only going to get to about 51% damage reduction. Adding four Fortify Heavy Armor enchants will only bump that up to about 61%. So the question is, "Which way would it be most efficient to spend your perks?" Assuming you'd prefer to save your enchants for something other than Fortify Heavy Armor, you can spend four perks in the Heavy Armor tree to get your armor rating to hit cap (either four ranks of Juggernaut or Juggernaut->Well Fitted->Tower of Strength->Matching Set). This has the nice side-effect of reducing the amount of stagger you take. Alternately, you could spend five perks in Smithing and take one rank of Juggernaut. This will also put you over the armor cap while letting you upgrade your weapons twice as well. Personally, I think Smithing is the better choice. Under the "only Heavy Armor perks" scenario, I doubt you could spend two more perks anywhere on the perk tree and be nearly as effective as you would have been if you'd had the upgraded weaponry of the Smithing perks. However, if you're really only after the armor (say, you're playing a Heavy Armor Destruction mage), then the Heavy Armor perks are a better value. --Fluff 04:08, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Heavy Armor does, however, benefit much more from its smithing perk path. What of Light Armor users?166.182.3.48 05:24, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion, Light Armor users should still go down the right side of the path. The left side of the path is disappointing in terms of weaponry, and both sides lead to Dragon Armor, which is your goal if you're going with Light Armor. With Dragonscale, you'll hit about 47% damage reduction. Adding the four Light Armor enchants only gets you to around 56%. With four Light Armor perks (2 ranks of Agile Defender, Custom Fit, and Matching Set) and no enchants, you can hit the armor cap. Alternately, with six Smithing perks and two Light Armor perks (either 2 ranks of Agile Defender or Agile Defender + Custom Fit) you can hit the armor cap. Obviously with Light Armor, it's much harder to defend spending an extra four perks for your weapon upgrades. A middle ground is using the left side of Smithing, which only costs five Smithing perks (plus the two Light Armor perks) but nets you Glass weaponry to upgrade instead of Daedric.
I'd never run the numbers before for weaponry, but apparently the max damage isn't that different. For example, assuming a character with max skill but no weaponry perks and some enchant/alchemy loop improved weaponry with the Smithing perks, a Glass Bow will be dealing 64 damage while a Daedric Bow will be dealing 70 damage. I'm pretty sure the weapon perks won't change the relative difference; the Glass Bow will always be a little more than 8% damage behind the Daedric Bow. The Elven Bow isn't even that bad. Upgraded, it deals 62 damage. Is it less damage? Well, yeah. Is it an amount of damage you're going to care about? Probably not. --Fluff 06:33, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Is it worth considering the role of the Alteration spells in this? At least for the Heavy Armor Destruction mage mentioned above, considering how often you'll need cap in the first place, 40-80 points could reliably be shaved off. 95.206.0.227 12:54, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
It looks like with Stoneskin or higher, you could get by with one less armor perk in each case. In one case with Light Armor, it doesn't quite get you to the cap, but you're all of three or four points off, so that should be close enough. --Fluff 14:30, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
So essentially, the gist I'm getting is that if a user specializes in an Armor skill with perks, a non-perked Smithing skill will be all that's necessary to hit the armor protection cap for either armor type. The question is, then, do the perks make a sufficient difference in weapon power over non-perked improvements? Does spending five perks on Daedric smithing allow a significant and worthwhile advantage over Daedric weapons that are improved without the perk?166.182.3.60 17:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I do believe the point the original poster pointed out is that it is easily possible to hit the armor cap without spending perks in the SMITHING tree....he said nothing about the heavy/light armor trees. He has a point as far as the armor goes, i'd imagine with the 150% armor bonus you can get from the perks in the heavy/light armor trees, you could easily cap out, and it also seems to be even more appealing if you plan on using a unique weapon, of the type that can't be upgraded with a smithing perk (mace of molag bal for example). if you plan, however, on using daedric weapons, i fully suggest getting the smithing perks. Basically, after 100 smithing, weapons for which you have the perk upgrade 2.5 times faster. roughly one "level" of damage every 20 points as opposed to every 50 points. max armsman, ~100% fortify one-handed damage, a one-handed skill of 82, and a daedric sword smithed up to about 225 skill (with perk) and i'm doing about 210 damage per swing...i can kill dragons in 2-3 power attacks. Limduhl 19:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
The difference between weaponry that has been improved with a perk and weaponry that has not been improved with a perk is much greater than the difference between different tiers of weaponry. Continuing my previous example, a Daedric bow that has been improved without the perk will do a mere 48 damage. The Elven bow that has been improved with the perk does much better than that. So, if you're looking for heavy armor that hits the damage cap AND hard-hitting weaponry, you could spend one perk in Heavy Armor and five perks in Smithing or you could spend four perks in Heavy Armor and two perks in Smithing (to get perk-improved Elven weaponry). Similarly with light armor, you could spend two perks in Light Armor and five perks in Smithing or you could spend four perks in Light Armor and two perks in Smithing (once again, to get perk-improved Elven weaponry). --Fluff 19:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Would you consider this drastic difference game breaking? Three shotting a dragon seems like it would ruin the flow of play, and is likely to get nerfed by a patch. What about the hardest difficulty? What sort of difference do the perk improved weapons make then?166.182.3.237 19:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Understand that this answer is much more subjective. Personally, I think Smithing is game-breaking. 80% damage reduction is too good. Being able to kill most normal enemies in one or two hits is too good. Without armor improvement and Fortify enchantments, the best you can do with Daedric armor is 66% damage reduction, and a bit more if you use a shield. Without weapon improvement and Fortify enchantments, the most damage you're going to be dealing with a Daedric bow in normal combat is 53 damage (or 80 damage if you get a critical hit). Both of those are assuming you gain max skill and take your perks in Heavy Armor and Archery. If you take a look at my previous examples, you can see the comparison. Smithing saves you a few defensive perks while also buffing your weaponry significantly (the same player with a Smithing-perk improved Daedric bow is dealing 140 damage, or 210 on a critical hit). Now, I haven't played on Master difficulty, so I don't know if that sort of damage reduction or damage output is really necessary. On Expert, it's not. --Fluff 21:00, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I thought as much. It would be worth testing the hard mode effects, if someone who owns the game would be willing, but making a note on the main page of the exploit's ability to significantly alter gameplay might be wise. Likewise, an edit might also mention that, unless patched, the exploit could gain similar benefits to a non-exploit + perk combination, which could save more "moderate" players a few perk points in their build.166.182.3.209 00:58, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
I would be interested in that. There are many interesting perks to spend the few extra points on. 95.206.15.252 17:50, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

() "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." You can't call Smithing an exploit. It's an intended part of the game. It may not be well balanced, but it's not an exploit.

I think a part of the problem is that there is no way to level up Smithing organically. For example, I can level up Alteration by standing around casting Detect Life in the middle of a crowded city, but that's fairly boring. I can also let Alteration level up a bit at a time by casting Stoneskin while I'm in fights, which is obviously more exciting and fun. With Smithing, the only way to level it up is to grind out some items. If I'm going to be grinding and my skill has no chance of improving without future grinding, then I might as well go ahead and get as much of it out of the way as I can. This can lead to quickly getting 100 Smithing. Alchemy suffers from the same problem. Enchanting would as well except you can enchant up a Soul Trap weapon and head out into the field with Azura's Star for a more organic approach to leveling up. --Fluff 18:23, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." → organic. SCNR. --84.63.187.133 20:40, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

This has drifted quite a long way off the original topic, but the short answer is "yes": there is absolutely no NEED to take any smithing perks at all, ever. It won't in any way impact the quality of your gear at any level, including endgame. There are BENEFITS to taking them though: they can give you access to "above level" gear, making you significantly stronger during the first 2/3 or so of the game. Arcane Blacksmith is an arguable exception though, since it provides a very significant benefit during those early levels, and at a cost of only 2 perks is certainly worth taking unless your build is cripplingly starved. It will also allow you to improve Uniques, which is often highly desirable. Aliana 10:25, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Something else to keep in mind is that if you care about aesthetics, then the perks are even more worthwhile. Sure, you can hit the cap with no smithing perks and just armor skills by wearing a full suit of matching armor of high quality. But, what if you don't want your armor to all be from the same set, or if you don't want to wear a helm, or if you want to wear all Elven or Imperial or Falmer armor? With Smithing perks, you can hit the cap with far less. I'm way over the cap right now while wearing Falmer armor on my chest, arms, and feet, with no helm at all due to a Smithing perk (Steel Smithing appears to apply to Falmer armor (but not to Falmer shields, Falmer weapons, or the incredibly bugged Falmer helm)). Without the Smithing perk, I'd be way below the cap, given that I'd be out the 25 points of hidden armor rating, the 50% boost from full armor and matching set, and the armor that'd be on the helm itself. And for reference, fully upgraded with all my bonuses, I'm doing ~270 damage with Daedric weapons, and ~500 damage with Steel weapons. I don't have the Daedric smithing perk.
Now, I'm trying to figure out how much armor my followers need to wear to hit the cap using armors they have zero perk points in and minimal (15-20) skill. I'm pretty sure I can do it with Smithing perks, but not without them. That's another reason to use Smithing instead of Armor perks to get to your max.
Of course, it's not like any kind of min-maxing is required to murder everything ever. Thanks to the absurdity of smithing and enchanting, I'm murdering everything in one hit (two sometimes, and three or four for ancient dragons) with a one-handed weapon, never dying or needing to use healing potions (now that magic res is fixed), and wearing and using substandard equipment (mostly steel/Falmer). I'm playing on Master and wishing there was a higher difficulty. I've started using weapons/armors that I have no skill in just to make the game somewhat challenging again (and level up more). 208.206.3.254 21:42, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
The very first sentence of this section defines its irrelevance. I find it highly unlikely that Bethesda will choose not to address the 'exploit' of compounding alchemy effects to achieve weapons, armor and enchantments that far exceed reasonable levels. It's also important to point out that 'Master' difficulty does not alter the difficulty of the game globally - all it does is make player weapons less effective and monster/npc weapons more effective. Applying 'Master' difficulty as a context for grossly enhanced equipment quickly becomes meaningless and is a scenario that nobody (certainly not at Bethesda) will spend any time attempting to balance. Abusing the compounding effects of Alchemy and then complaining that 'Master' difficulty is not difficult enough is ridiculous. Kastagir 18:21, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Clarification on the Item_Quality section?

At level 48, with Smithing Skill of 100, Fortify Smithing of 12% (Forgemaster's Fingers), and Ebony Armor perk, I can improve an Ebony Bow from 56 to 95 (Legendary). The Skyrim:Smithing#Item_Quality section seems (seems) to insist that this Ebony Bow should go from 56 to 66 (+10), with my qualifications. Is there some sort of general caveat or other info missing from this section? Such as how the Armor section says "everything only applies to base armor ratings"? Thanks if you can help -RedKnight 05:48, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually that table says that "at smithing 91 with perk you'll be able to improve your bow to Legendary with +10 damage", what happens with more smithing is not in the table.87.228.24.249 13:21, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
That answer seems a little off. With 100 smithing and +12% it sounds like 112 Smithing. Compared to the lower level increases you'd have a jump of +1 to +3 maybe. The question indicates a jump of +30. It's hard to believe that increasing smithing from 91 to 112 would produce that big of a jump when the lower level increases are a tiny fraction of that amount. 98.174.225.94 21:51, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
The poster probably isn't taking into account their Archery skill and perks. Kai Heilos 22:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Incremental upgrade progress - clarification needed

maybe it is me being dumb, but is the following true - when player's effective smithing is in range for quality X upgraded item gets quality X with +Y corresponding to X, no matter how close effective smithing is to higher border of the interval corresponding to quality X... Thus, if you have 100 smithing and a perk, you upgrade to Legendary #1 (+10), if you add, say, 9% more smithing, you still get legendary #1 (+10), but if you add, say 20%, you get Legendary #2 with bigger bonus (+11 ?) /Sergio/ 87.228.24.249 18:34, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's how it works.

Enhance smithing 100% = perk

I have just been messing around a bit with console commands and enchanting and smithing. i have discovered something interesting after i created myself gloves of 100% to smithing. at 100% i can improve items to legendary at exactly level 91 of smithing. one point less and it is epic. (taken no perks at all in smithing, obviously)

100% enhancement = twice as much. Which is what every perk tells you it does.

Left side vs. Right side for a light armor character

Right side is of course better(Daedric weapons and best light armor) but it also requires one perk more. Daedric weapons do only 2 points of damage more than Glass weapons; with Legendary upgrade, the difference is minor. Since lowest-damage weapons have biggest % difference, let's take dagger as an example. Glass dagger does 9 damage, Daedric - 11. That's 19% damage difference. But when upgraded to Legendary, the damage becomes 19 and 21; the difference becomes slightly less than 10%. Overupgrading with even better Legendary levels will decrease the gap further. So left side is still worth considering for characters low on available perk points. 178.183.231.186 07:20, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

It is, of course, only better if your intention is to make the most optimized final character. If you're using Light Armor for the first four fifths of the game, it, of course, isn't. --84.63.187.133 20:55, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
dagger is a very bad example. the only people who use daggers are people who use shrouded gloves and for them one point is actually 30. — Unsigned comment by 89.138.2.124 (talk) at 16:04 on 7 December 2011 (UTC)
You miss the point. In terms of percentage damage difference, the damage multipliers don't matter. The point of the post was to point out that you don't lose a lot of damage from not getting daedric weaponry if you plan on using Smithing to upgrade them. This is correct; the difference between base damages on weaponry is quickly overshadowed by the bonuses from upgrading. In fact, I'd say that if you plan on upgrading, you might as well just stay at Elven Armor. The armor is the lightest and you can upgrade it to hit the damage cap. --Fluff 14:36, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
It may also be of relevance that Daedric weapons and armor can be created via the Atronach Forge, which does not require Smithing perks. So if you're *only* taking Smithing perks for Daedric gear, you might want to stock up on Centurion Cores and just use the Atronach Forge instead (though you'll need to finish the Master Conjuration Ritual before this is possible). If you want to make them Legendary, perks, potions, or enchantments will be needed. 209.66.120.3 22:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Relevant for maxing armor, but you always want the 2x improvement for weapons..--41.132.180.110 12:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Fortify Smithing confirmation

Ok im pretty confused and I couldnt be bothered reading through everything. If i improve my lets say, iron armor to legendary, then equip a necklace that gives lets say 12% bonus to smithing will I be able to make it even better? And if I found a way better+30% Necklace later on, could I come back and improve it again and so on until I end up wearing a full set of +20% armor and jewellry, and so on would I be able to make an ultra-super set of iron armor? 'cause that would rock :) Broxigar 07:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, if you continually improve your skill with smithing and you'll be able to improve you Iron Armor further each time. But your pre-improved Iron Armor would be no better than a new piece of Iron Armour that you have improved for the first time with your new level of skill. And you will always have lower stats than you would have if you started to create Steel or better armour via perks, or even just improving the Steel or better armor that starts appearing as loot. Mind you, with 100 Smithing, Alchemy, Enchanting, and the appropriate perks in Enchanting and Alchemy, it's quite possible you can hit the Armor cap of 80% damage reduction at 568? Armor. Dargov 12/08/2011

I think you misunderstood my question. What I'm trying to find out is that if I had a sword with 15 damage, and I'm on 100 smithing, if I increased it to 20 damage by making it legendary, could I improve it even further with fortify smithing enchanted items? I'm not talking about any specific item, just wanna know if I could make an already legendary Utem even more buff. Broxigar 20:40, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Has this exact point not been made several times on this very talk page? --Fluff 22:07, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Everyone talks about using the A->E->S exploit, but they seem to do it really inefficiently. I've got a set of Dragonscale plate where the chestpiece is at 45000 or so armor with a +1.3million health enchant; a daedric bow worth over six million septims; and a +1340000% bow-damage ring. I mean... why are people using the inefficient chain? 74.181.90.193 05:35, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps people don't feel like using the compounding effects of alchemy to make the game decidedly un-fun. Or more likely they don't want to expend ridiculous amounts of time employing the most likely exploit to be fixed when Bethesda addresses such issues in future updates - and would instead prefer to learn how the system is intended to be used. Kastagir 19:16, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Elven Smithing doesn't apply to "Elven Light" armour

A very minor point, but if you're just starting out and you've nabbed some of this from an unwary Thalmor patrol & are considering taking the perk to improve it, it won't work. 124.170.15.129 21:42, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Epic with Perk minimum skill > 74 (probably 79, but at least 77)

The current table says you need a skill of 74 to start getting Epic improvements with the appropriate Perk. I just spent a good chunk of time testing & carefully confirming that this is not the correct #. It is somewhere between 77 and 79, I can't tell exactly which. I have a Ring of Major Smithing (+17%) and a Bracers of Major Smithing (also 17%). Total bonus of 34%. At base skill 58, I'm still making Flawless, at 59 it's finally Epic. I'm not yet sure if multiple bonuses are all summed before being added on, or if each item's is added individually with any fractions dropped at every staff. Assuming it totals all bonuses first, then drops fractions, the required skill is either 78 or 79. I can't tell which, because with these numbers it jumps straight from 77 at skill 58 to 79 at skill 59. If it drops fractions for every bonus individually the threshold could be as low as 77.

Also, there is a tooltip display bug (as of v1.3.7.0) in the Apparent Effects list of the "Spells" panel if you have two smithing items with the same bonus (e.g. my Ring & Bracers of Major Smithing 17%). It shows the two effects in the list correctly, but the tooltip for both shows the same item, the Ring, instead of one ring and one bracers. It seems like searches the items list for a matching effect and gives up when it finds one, thus finding the ring in both cases. This only added to my confusion while testing this, I thought there might be a bug where the two identical bonuses were not stacking, thus my inability to hit Epic at 74 as expected. However, I confirmed using a second, different bracers (12%) that the math stacking works fine, this is only a minor tooltip bug.

I'm hesitant to change the table in case I'm missing something in my math (first edit here), but I'll add a note there. If anyone can confirm all this or better yet precisely determine the exact skill #, please edit the table so others don't get confused like I got. Perko 10 December 2011

I worked on some Elven Armor. I had a Necklace with Fortify Smithing of 5% and a potion of Fortify Smithing with 22%. I stepped up to the workbench with a Smithing of 59. I saved. Through trial and error I attempted to reach Epic quality. By making jewelry and leather armor and also a quick run to Eorlund, I advanced my Smithing one point at a time. When I reached a smithing of 61 I was able to make my armor Epic. This leads me to believe that the target number for Epic is 77. ThaneAquidneck 03:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the quick confirmation, Thane, I'll change it to 77 and keep an eye on it later without any bonuses. Your results suggest that it rounds down on each individual item's bonus, so my 58 + (2 x 17%) is actually adding +9 twice for 18 points instead of the +19 I expected if they were first summed up. Perko 11 December 2011
It's 74. I have 74 smithing skill with no +smithing items and I can make Epic items. I can make Epic Elven/Glass weapons and armor.
Hmm, that is curious. I don't have a natural 74 skill yet. Does anybody have an explanation for how the smithing bonuses are added in then? Using my original #s, 17% of 58 is 9.86, so even with separately rounded down bonuses it should be 58+9+9=76. Even just a +8 from each 17% bonus would be enough to reach 74. But that combo does't make epics. The math doesn't add up. It *would* work if the second bonus was only half strength: 58+9+5=72, 59+10+5=74. Any evidence elsewhere that multiple bonuses don't stack directly but offer diminishing returns? Perko 12 December 2011
I used the console commands to fiddle with things. I can confirm that a NATURAL 74 will get Epic quality items. I also fiddled with a beginning character save and did things like fiddle with smithing and add items like Ring of Minor Smithing (12%) and Necklace of Smithing (15%). There is definitely some sort of loss of efficiency when using a single item and even more efficiency loss when using two items. Determining the nature of this loss of efficiency is hard. I can say definitively that if you use at least one item the target number is at least 1 point higher and if you use two items the target number may be as much as 3 points higher. This inefficiency exists even at the Fine/Superior boundary. ThaneAquidneck 23:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the detailed investigation. It didn't occur to me to hack my stats with the console to test it. Last night I got to 75 natural and it's enough to make epics, so of course you guys are right. Weird about the bonus inefficiency, though... But that part probably belongs in a different wiki entry. Perko 13 December 2011

() With 99 skill and a 130% potion I can improve my armor by 42, with 100 skill and a 130% potion I can improve my armor by 46 which indicated a skill close to 211. However, 99 * 2.3 = 227, Which should increase my armor by 46 and 100 * 2.3 = 230 which should improve my armor by 49. Something is definately weird in the math. Kai Heilos 06:59, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

A smithing skill of 5610 improves my armor by 1176, but a smithing skill of 3000 with 87% smithing enchantment (3000*1.87=5610) only gives an improvement on 1173. So something is off slightly, but it's not a major adjustment. Kai Heilos 07:54, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Regular items vs. Unique items improvement

I'd like to know more about how the various % increases affect specific items. Example: Volendrung compared to Ebony Warhammer. Both are made of Ebony and both have 25 base damage. Volendrung needs Ebony Ingot to improve just as the Ebony Warhammer. If one unlocks the Two-Handed skill tree (5 perk on Barbarian and 100 point in the skill itself), he/she will end up with 75 damage using any of these two weapons. 100%+100%+100% that's logical so far. However, if someone boosts Smithing with magical items and potions as it is possible, there are going to be significant differences. I would like to know why or how these things work. So I did a little testing. Used Dragonplate Gauntlets - , Necklace - and Ring of Peerless Smithing resulting in a +75% Smithing bonus. I also used a Blacksmith's Elixir (+50%). Naturally, with a fully unlocked Smithing tree. After all these but nothing else, I improved both weapons at the blacksmith's table. Ebony Warhammer: 154 damage. Volendrung: 116 damage. Why??? It seems like one of the Smithing increases (probably the Elixir) had no effect at all. Any thoughts on this? Am I doing something wrong? I checked several times and naturally the boost was still active. I checked it with other items such as the Helm of Yngol and so on and the conclusion is that the unique items are always poorer after upgrading no matter how many different boost you try. So if one would have an Ebony Helmet and a unique helmet with the very same base armor rating, after the (potion - and item - boosted) improvement the unique ones are always a lot weaker.

By the way, is there information about what is the cap on the improvement percentages with Smithing? Several people has been asking this not just on this site and I have not seen an informative answer, if any. So, do you know how great the improvement can be? Just like with the damage reduction cap is 80% with 567 armor, what is the case with "improve Smithing with %"? Thanks a lot.

For smithing, you can get to about 450 skill with 4 x 29% enchants and a 130% potion. I'll take a look at the unique weapon issue, but I'd think the perk doesn't afect them.
Confirmed, perks don't affect the Volendrung, which is why your Ebony Warhammer beats it. Kai Heilos 18:41, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Need clarification on what Armor and Other mean in the Smithing Quality table

Does that mean, for Legendary, only the Cuirass gets +20 and all other pieces get +10? If that's not the case, then why is "Other" not labeled as "Weapons" since what else are you going to upgrade?--RumblePen 08:44, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Only the chest piece gets the +20 Kai Heilos 11:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
A table on the armor page claims "Legendary (+20/piece)" (base for full Daedric is 108, "Legendary" increase is 188), so if what Kai Heilos says is correct, the Armor page's chart needs to be changed.--Liudeius 16:19, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
You probably have 100 Armor and/or armor perks which affect the smithing bonus as well. Kai Heilos 17:55, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm not referring to my character, I'm actually here researching because I'm going to be getting the game soon. By "Armor page" I meant the page on this wiki titled Armor. It has a slew of calculations, and along with it is this chart (EAR being Equipment Armor Rating).
EAR by set
Name Base Flawless
(+13/piece)
Epic
(+17/piece)
Legendary
(+20/piece)
Base
(with shield)
Flawless
(with shield)
Epic
(with shield)
Legendary
(with shield)
Dragonscale 82 134 150 162 111 176 196 211
Orcish 90 142 158 170 120 185 205 220
Ebony 96 148 164 176 128 193 213 228
Dragonplate 102 154 170 182 136 201 221 236
Daedric 108 160 176 188 144 209 229 244
If that is not the case, this chart on the Armor page needs to be changed. (You may want to confirm it on your own game though, since this is pretty heavily supported.)--Liudeius 03:01, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
I haven't even read through that section, I just found it confusing to be honest but you are correct, the table is wrong. Kai Heilos 03:17, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the section as multiple people have queried its usefulness and as you've pointed out it is incorrect. Kai Heilos 03:26, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Please stop referring to "cuirass" and "chest piece." In Skyrim, "armor" covers the torso and legs. "Cuirass" and "greaves" were used in Oblivion - they are not present in Skyrim. Kastagir 19:11, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Smithing Calculation

The calculations;

ROUNDDOWN((SKILL-5)/(103/6))*3.6+2
ROUNDDOWN((SKILL+11/3)/(103/3))*3.6+2

Here's an explanation of what the numbers are for;

(103/3) is (34+1/3) which is the jump between unperked skill steps 34, 34, 35. For perked steps it is (103/6), or (17+1/6), 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18
3.6 is the amount smithing increases each step
-5 is because 22-17=5, so your skill is 5 points off,
11/3 is 3+2/3, which is because 31-34+2/3 = -3+2/3, so again your skill is off.
+2 is some random modifier that makes it all work

And a bunch of numbers you can test

Skill needed With Perk - Without Perk - Armor Boost - Non Armor Boost
14 - 14 - 2 - 1
22 - 31 - 6 - 3
40 - 65 - 10 - 5
57 - 100 - 13 - 6
74 - 134 - 17 - 8
91 - 168 - 20 - 10
108 - 203 - 24 - 12
126 - 237 - 28 - 14
143 - 271 - 31 - 15
160 - 306 - 35 - 17
177 - 340 - 38 - 19
194 - 374 - 42 - 21
211 - 409 - 46 - 23
229 - 443 - 49 - 24
246 - 477 - 53 - 26

And the thread it all comes from [1] If anyone is particularly skilled at math, feel free to try and figure out why the numbers are what they are or why the calculations work the way they do :) Kai Heilos 18:47, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


Improving Non-Standard Equipment

I recently found out that Falmer Armor, Falmer Boots, and Falmer Gauntlets can all be improved twice as much if you have Steel Smithing. I only have Steel Smithing and Arcane Blacksmith in the Smithing tree. I upgraded a full suit of Daedric and a full suit of Falmer at the same time. The Falmer equipment wound up having a displayed armor rating about 50% better than the Daedric (while I was wearing no heavy armor or bonuses to heavy armor). The Falmer Shield, however, was a few points worse than the Daedric Shield, and the helm was much, much worse. The helm is too confusing though given it's based on Light Armor perks due to a bug, so I can't tell if the Steel Smithing bonus applied to it too or not. The weapons and shield are definitely not getting a bonus from Steel Smithing.

Does anyone think it's worth it to have a table somewhere of what armors are affected by each perk? I'm not sure if there are any others besides this one that are unclear, but above someone says that Elven Light Armor is NOT affected by the Elven Smithing perk. That'd be nice to know.

Also, does anyone think there should be a table about what materials are required for different armors? I had no idea Caraous Chitin(sp) was needed for Falmer stuff, or I would have looted it rather than leaving it behind. The Ghostblade requiring Ectoplasm also surprised me. 208.206.3.254 22:00, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Possible Bug with Iron Smithing on Xbox 360?

I have Iron armor, and my smithing skill is 85, but the highest a workbench will improve the armor to is Exquisite. According to the chart, I should be able to make it Epic. I'm wondering if there is a bug that fails to recognize Iron as a perk, since there technically isn't one. I haven't tested this on PC yet, and I don't have a PS3. Anybody have any ideas? Voraxith 04:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

There is no Iron Smithing perk... The highest you can get Iron Armor with 85 skill and no perk is Exquisite, according to the chart. If you mean you have the Steel Smithing perk, you should upgrade to Steel Armor. It'll be upgradable to Epic for you. 208.206.3.254 16:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

VN - Lunar Forging

Forging at the Lunar Forge has been back and forth already on this page. Can anyone verify that you can get the Silent Moons enchant on weaponry by forging it at the Lunar Forge? --Fluff 17:34, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I think everyone who places this could not read. They all say "there is a book which says it [crafting Lunar weapons at Lunar forge] is possible" while the book says quite the opposite, that its author was "able to get the Forge running", but did not get any enchants. /Sergio/ 87.228.24.249 11:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
I just did as instructed on the page. I waited until 12 midnight and then forged a Glass Sword at the Lunar forge, and both moons were out. No enchantment. The only way to acquire a lunar enchantment is to disenchant one of the weapons found lying around the forge and then place that enchantment on your weapon. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
I don't know about smithing Lunar weapons, but the book only says that the author could not get it working (which in RPG's is often a queue that the player needs to do some puzzling to activate it). When you tried to smith were both moons full as well? Perhaps the phase of the moon has some impact? It's called the "Silent Moon's Camp," so maybe the moons need to be silent (new moons)? I would find it quite surprising if they put that massive forge in the game and it was completely function-less.--Liudeius 02:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)


You can forge lunar weapons at midnight and only when the 2 moons are showing and at their fullest. this happens every 3 days or so — Unsigned comment by 98.206.229.33 (talk) at 00:56 on January 9, 2012
If the moons have to be full, it'll take a lot more than three days... I wasn't able to get this to work with new moons, full moons, one showing, both showing, both exactly aligned, whatever. If someone has specific evidence indicating exactly how this works, great. If not, please don't repeat speculation as if it were true. Vardis 18:52, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Does time stop ?

When using the forge or workbench does time pass, or is it temporarily suspended (as in Oblivion). I ask because the time limit on potions doesn't leave much time for smithing more than 1 item if time continues to flow as normal, but the limit seems pointless if time stops.62.49.72.185 11:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Time does NOT stop 76.186.162.50 19:52, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Perks

If I acquire one of the perks for smithing, will it double the effects of the grindstone and work bench. For example if I have 2 glass swords, increase the damage of one by... +6, then get the perk associated with glass equipment, and proceed to upgrade the other, will it still be +6 or double to +12?

Mind you, these numbers are pulled from thin air.

No, look at the chart on the page... At least read the wiki before asking questions, and use a forum if you don't want to.--Liudeius 03:04, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Unimprovable Weapons

I don't know if the bug talking about weapons and armor that cannot be improved is supposed to be noting a possible glitch associated or those items, or is making a general assertion that those items can never be improved. If it's the former, that should be spelled out better. If it's the latter, then Nettlebane should be removed, because I can definitely improve it. Minor Edits 09:47, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Improving artifacts

some of the daedric artifacts and dragonpriest masks can be improved via smithing skills. If you have ebony smithing perk, does this affect on how much the masks/weapons will be improved or will you get maximium stats if you just have 100 smithing (and fortify smithing equipments & Potions)?

It depends on how the item was coded. There is an unfortunate degree of inconsistency with regard to what items can be upgraded. In many cases the specific smithing perk is not defined. This is most likely an oversight by the developer. There are mods that address this. Kastagir 18:28, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

smithing arrows?

i got the skyrim hardcover book and noticed that it states glass arrows under items you can smith. i dont know if this is some fluke or something, but can you smith arrows at a forge?

No, you can't smith arrows, sorry.RIM 19:47, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

You can smith Arrows on PC with a MOD

Improving items more than once

I have a set of epic Ebony armor, is it possible to improve them further to legendary?67.168.149.21 05:44, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Once you have the skill and/or perk, yes. (Eddie The Head 05:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC))

Moving from Dragon to Daedric

Hello, I was rather curious, but is it possible to move from Dragon armour perk (Light-Armour path)to the Daedric Armour perk after the Dragon one? Or does the Smithing Category only restrict one path/flow? There is a mod I'll love to have, but it requires Daedric perk to create the weapon, however, I'm currently tapped into the Light Armour/Weapon Smithing path. So once I hit one road, I can't continue and spin around and grab an extra one?

Thanks. 203.219.129.118 22:37, 8 January 2012 (UTC)Smithy

The Daedric Smithing perk requires the Ebony Smithing perk. You cannot get it by having the Dragon Armor perk. You can get it on PC using the console, with the code player.addperk 000cb413, or probably by use of some mod. timrem 02:13, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Verified that Daedric Smithing is required. It is not a loop around. I too had been hoping such was the case, but found it not to be so. Would've pretty well settled the debate on left side right side for light armored characters were it so. 70.173.88.41 03:26, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the perk requiremens for Dragon Smithing are either Daedric Smithing or Glass Smithing, allowing you to choose the Dragon Smithing perk from either the light armor side or the heavy armor side. As has been mentioned, the perk tree is not a circle and each perk has prerequisites. Kastagir 23:53, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Skyforge Steel

I went ahead and removed the section discussing the Nord Hero and Skyforge Steel weaponry and how the Skyforge Steel weapons "scaled with the player". Simply put: They don't. They are equivalent to Elven weaponry, but are affected by the Steel Smithing Perk. They do not increase in base damage at any time, leveling up, buying a new one, or otherwise. 98.180.215.134 12:06, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Skyforge weapon damage scales with character level. At level 40, a Skyforge Steel Sword will have damage nearly identical to an Ebony Sword. At higher levels it will rival Daedric. If you are lower level, it is entirely possible for it to have the damage rating of an Elven sword. This can be easily tested by using the console to give an ebony sword and a skyforge steel sword and modify the character level. The weight and value of Skyforge Steel weapons does not change. Draugr/Nord Hero weapons and armor do not scale with character level, so this comment is appropriate. Kastagir 23:59, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
If your Skyforge Steel Sword has damage nearly identical to an Ebony sword, it's because they have different levels of improvement. Remember that Legendary continues to have levels of improvement beyond the first one, even if they don't show up in the weapon description. I suspect you have Steel smithing, don't have Ebony smithing, have a high enough smithing skill with bonuses so that both the Ebony and Skyforge sword are at "Legendary" (that only requires 168 without the perk), and don't realize they are different levels of Legendary. If you are unconvinced, it should be easy enough to test this properly by getting an unimproved Ebony, Skyforge, and Elven weapon and you will see that the Skyforge and Elven weapon (if both the same type) have the same damage values, regardless of character level. Vardis 03:28, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Smithing : enchant gear and potions act differently

I found that in most of posts concerning smithing (here and in other places) people try to reconstruct the smithing formula under assumption of some universal smithing skill depending on your smithing level, corresponding perks, fortify smithing gear and fortify smithing potions. However, very simple testing shows that the factors work quite differently. I didn't make a full reserach but just simple tests.

I was trying to improve Falmer Helmet (using Chaurus Chitin, of course). My smithing was 100, and I had 4 pieces of +25% smithing gear. Without any gear the quality of the improvement is Flawless (skill is 100), with two pieces - Epic(skill 150), with three - Legendary (skill 175) and absolutely no extra improvement after adding 4th piece (skill 200). Obviously there is no Smithing perk in this case and those numbers are in good match with the info on the Armour page here that you need 132 skill for Epic and 168 for Legendary. However if I try to repeat this procedure for Glass Helmet (I did have Glass Smithing perk) then each piece of gear gives me extra improvement (even though all are displayed as Legendary). However, these improvements is not extremely big.

If you match the numbers it seems plausible that my effective Smithing skill was 100+86+25*4=286 for Glass smithing and 100+25*4=200(downgraded to 168, since no perk) for Falmer Helmet. Extra 86=100-14 comes from double effect of the Glass Smithing perk. It seems also that Enchanting gear bonuses are not effected by perks (need more testing on that, however). Moreover if you improve something without the corresponding perk you possible maximal smithing skill is 168 (which gives you +20AR in chest armor, and +10 for other items ). Your maximum with perks is either 286=14+86*2+4*25 or even 302=14+86*2+4*29 (if your enchants are 29%). This improvement is absolute and doesn't depend on the item.

However what about potions entering the picture. Since my Alchemy was not good I tested just +50% in-game smithing potion. The effect is that even you didn't wear any enchanting gear you can improve, for example, the Falmer Helmet, but interesting thing is that this extra improvement still takes place even if you max your 168 smithing skill by gear. So they works independently. Also if you try to improve Glass Cuirass then the effect from the potion is not 50% of your enchanting maximum, but more than in the case of the Falmer Helmet.

The conclusion is simple, It seems that potions improve the basic armor of an item. That means if your improve Hide Cuirass with base AR=20 then 50% potion gives you +10AR, up to 30, however if you improve Glass Cuirass with base AR=38 then the same potion gives you +19 in AR. Daedric Cuirass will be improved even more(base is 50 so +25). So in that sense improving your smithing by potions are much more effective in the case of high quality gear (Glass, Daedric, Dragon). On the contrary, improving from the skill itself, perks and enchnating gear is constant and the same for Steel or Daedric and even smaller for no-perk branches like Fur, Hide, Leather, Iron.

I didn't do a complete testing on the subject above so if somebody interested you can check this by themselves and confirm(or disprove) it then it is possible to add this info to the main page.— Unsigned comment by 89.23.171.35 (talk) on 17 January 2012

I looked into it, and my own testing doesn't bear out what you are claiming. With light armor skill of 100 and heavy at zero, I tried a mix of light and heavy armor with and without the perk. The potion had the same effect as the enchant. Using both a potion and an enchant seemed to simply add the % increase to the smithing skill.
Adding the 5 light armor perks for 100% bonus to end AR made the apparent bonus from smithing doubled, regardless if I used a potion, enchanting, or both. That makes sense, because you are improving the base rating of the item in question when you smith it. Whatever perk you have, or increase from skill, is applied to that new rating. The Falmer Helmet is bugged in the current version as while it is marked as a heavy armor and is affected by the heavy armor skill, it gets bonuses from light armor perks. Perhaps that's what led to some numbers being different than what you expected?
There also isn't an absolute cap at 168 for items you don't have a perk in. 100 skill improved a Falmer Helmet by 7. Four +25% enchants gives 200 skill. The Legendary +1 quality starts at 218 skill without the perk. You can only get 216 with 100 + 4*29, which is perhaps why you thought it was capped? I made a +118% enchant and got the +12 bonus, and then made a +117% enchant (+10), then added a +1% potion and again got the +12. I then reversed the numbers and had a 117% potion and a 1% smithing enchant and got the same results. So it looks like the enchanting and alchemy fortify smithing effects are treated exactly the same.Vardis 04:29, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
Indeed, it is very interesting info that you need 218 smithing skill to get Legendary 2 tier without the corresponding perk. But, formally speaking this is not legally achievable in game since the best possible enchant is 29% and so your maximum is 216. Just 2 points missing and so 168 and basic Legendary (+20 for Chest an +10 for others) IS the best possible for Hide, Fur, Learther, Iron and Falmer. However if we take into account 15% from Ancient Expertise (reward for one quest) then maybe it works because I checked it using 25% enchants and did have just 215(100+25*4+15) skill.
Concerning the second question I should say that Falmer Helmet itself is not a good testing sample because both theories give the same result for it. Its base AR=10 and Legendary 1 improvement is +10 too. You mentioned that Legendary 2 improvement is +12 but according to the potion theory 117% potion should give 10*1.17=+11.7 rounded to 12 which is exactly the same. Formally speaking the difference must be the most visible in the case of Daedric chest armor.
Actually I am almost sure that potions improve just base armor stats completely independently on your smithing level (so alchemists can improve gear without any smithing). I will make some tests later (at the moment I simply don't have good Alchemy and my Heavy Armor is not 100) and post results in another note. — Unsigned comment by 31.128.147.8 (talk) at 01:19 on 20 January 2012
Your maximum is 216 without potions. Since potions add to the enchant value, your maximum is at least 336, which is L6 or L7 or something.
Regarding the Falmer Helmet, I mentioned that I needed a total effective smithing skill of 218 to get the Legenday 2 improvement of +12. As I said, I swapped the values on the enchant gear and potion and got the same results. The +117 potion did not give +12, it gave +10, just like the enchant gear. It only got +12 when I added +1% from an enchant (117 + 1 = 118). There is no "11" value you can reach from the potions, which should be the case if what you say is true. I got the same results for 4 different helmets, using all combinations of light/heavy armor, perk/no perk.
Some testing on your part would be welcome. :) I realize that it will be more difficult if you aren't on a PC. If you are on a PC, use the console to set your skills and add/remove smithing and armor perks when testing. Also, please sign your posts. Thanks. Vardis 03:05, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

() Ok, I found the interaction of the potion and enchant effect isn't what I though. +100% ench and +100% pot are not the same as +200% enchant. There's still nothing IMO to suggest that potions affect the base rating of an item though, weapons and armor still increase in set increments. Perhaps it's how the fortify smithing interacts with the perk, I don't know. Going off pure smithing skill, the L2 mark is reached at 203 without the perk. With +100%, you'd need a base of 108. With +100 ench and pot, you need a base of 61. I think what happens is the fortify is only being counted based on your base skill - 14. So if I have base of 61, +100% will give me 61 + ((61-14) * bonus), or 61 + (47 * 1.00) = 108. 108 + ((108-14) * bonus) = 108 + (94 * 1.00) = 202. Not quite 203, but close enough. If I have just one +200% enchant, I need a base of 77. 77 + ((77-14) * 2.00) = 77 + (63 * 2) = 77 + 126 = 203.

Oh, and with the perk and no fortify, you need 108 to get to L2 (sound familiar?) Suspecting it works like yet another +100% fortify, I worked off that assumption and was close enough that the difference is most likely rounding - you only need a skill of 37 to get an effective skill of 203 if you have the perk, +100% enchant fortify, and +100% potion fortify. 37 + (37 - 14) = 60, and then the separate +100% shown previously get you to 203. As I said, I'm off by one here or there, but it's close enough to be on the right track.

base + ((base - 14) * perk) = eff_1 (effective skill 1), perk is 1 or 0.
eff_1 + ((eff_1 - 14) * ench) = eff_2  ench is the cumulative bonus from fortified smithing enchants, just add them all up.
eff_2 + ((eff_2 - 14) * pot) = total effective smithing skill.  pot is the bonus from your fortify smithing potion. 

There's probably a better way to write this in one step, and it's not quite perfect, but I think it's pretty close. Additional testing and/or cleanup of the equations would be appreciated, but I definitely would say that the perk is being treated as a separate +100% fortify smithing effect, which is consistant with its description. What I wasn't expecting is that three separate +100% fortify effects would also fortify each other and not just the base skill. Vardis 07:48, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I should stop trying to write equations at 2 in the morning. A much cleaner version is
Effective smithing skill = ((Smithing skill - 14) * (1 + Perk) * (1 + Enchant bonus) * (1 + Potion bonus)) + 14
Perk is 1 or zero.  Enchant bonus is the sum of all your Fortify Smithing effects from enchantments.  Divide Fortify percentages by 100.
So, it's just a simple equation like how a typical system, but with the zero point (or whatever it's called) at 14. I'll check to see how the Smithing Expertise bonus factors in, since I've read that it doesn't stack, which seems odd to me. Vardis 00:43, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Smithing Mechanics

Effective Smithing skill = ((Smithing Skill - 13.29) * (1 + Perk) * (1 + Enchant) * (1 + Potion)) + 13.29
Quality Skill Required
Actual Without Perk With Perk
Fine 13.29 14 14
Superior 30.46 31 22
Exquisite 64.79 65 40
Flawless 99.13 100 57
Epic 133.46 134 74
Legendary 167.79 168 91
Legendary 2 202.13 203 108
...

I'd like to know what in the world made them pick 13.29. Vardis 05:58, 21 January 2012 (UTC)


An alternate method of calculating the smithing bonus (using the 3.6 armor per level from Kai Heilos) would then be

Rating increase = ((Effective skill - 30.46) * (3/103) * 1.8) + 3
Double rating for armor

I started it at the Superior level, to avoid issues with moving from Fine to Superior, since that's a half level in terms of skill required, but a full level's worth of rating increase. Vardis 00:13, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Improving Steel Sword

I have smithing 100 and + 10% and just for fun i wanted to do an legendary steel sword but it seems that steel swords can only be made flawless. Is that right? No way to get them legendary? — Unsigned comment by 87.186.20.4 (talk) at 20:03 on 23 January 2012

I don't think so, have you got all the perks for smithing that allow you to improve things by double?RIM 20:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
You can get them to legendary, but since you don't have the Steel Smithing perk, you'll have to boost your enchants or add a potion. 10% is only going to get you to an effective skill of a little under 109, and you'll need 168 to reach Legendary. The perk would also do the trick, as RIM suggested. -Vardis 22:03, 23 January 2012 (UTC)


Prev: None Up: Skyrim talk:Smithing Next: Archive 2