Oblivion talk:Black Hand

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Let's get this sorted[edit]

All right. We're all aware, I think, of the discrepancies within the Black Hand after Lucien's quote "Four fingers and a thumb, if you will." This accounts for only 4 Speakers, and we have here listed 7. It's obvious that with the assassination of several members new Speakers are appointed, but the question is when, and who, and what should we list? Here is my theory.

The 5 original members of the Black Hand must be determined in order to make any progress. The Listener is obviously Ungolim, as the only NPC ever to visit the Lucky Old Lady. It is no coincidence that, excluding Matthieu Bellamont, the last Brotherhood member you kill is the leader. Lucien Lachance is similarly beyond dispute as the Cheydinhal Speaker.

Trying to get into the minds of Bethesda, I would say that the next Speaker is Arquen. She is a valuable and longtime member of the Black Hand, and it seems more appropriate to the game to rank her as Speaker.

The other two speakers would be J'Ghasta, for Bruma, and Alval Uvani. Now I haven't actually gotten beyond The Purification myself (accidentally deleted my main character twice) and so am only acting on the assumption that this UESP info is correct. But apparently in J'Ghasta's and Alval's property you can find "evidence" (Black Hand robes?) that they are Speakers. Given that the player only recieves these robes as Speaker, I'd say that's a fair guess. At the start of the game this leaves the other Black Hand members as Silencers, who presumably get promoted to Speakers after the Black Hand regroups at Applewatch. This would make sense: Shaleez, Havilstein Hoar-Blood, Matthieu Bellamont (it says he is a Silencer in his diary) and the player makes 4 Silencers, one to each Speaker.

2 Silencers, 2 Speakers and 1 Listener killed off later, we have 5 members meeting at Applewatch: Lucien Lachance, Arquen, Matthieu Bellamont, Banus Alor and Belisarius Arius. Lucien is killed, the player is promoted to Cheydinhal Speaker in his place, and then to Listener in charge of Cheydinhal.

There are two discrepancies which need to be dealt with one way or another, and I will state my opinions on them once we get down to discussion (Somebody, please respond!). They are: 1. Most obviously, during "Following a Lead" there are 5 confirmed-to-be Speakers, one too many. 2. The second is that this site lists Banus as one of the original Speakers. A source will be necessary before we discuss that any further. Robed Dawnbringer 15:40, 12 February 2008 (EST)

In response to your comment about there being one too many speakers, i think we can assume that one of the speakers was promoted to replace Lucine after he was accused of being a traitor, therfore he would not really count as a member of the black hand at that time. 80.6.71.220 16:03, 12 February 2008 (EST)
Darn, forgot to log in again! Volanaro 16:04, 12 February 2008 (EST)

To which the answer is that the player replaces Lucien. Robed Dawnbringer 16:18, 12 February 2008 (EST)

I don't see a discrepancy. Ungolim was the Listener. After you kill him, Arquen is promoted to Listener (or at least, appears to be - she's the one that takes charge of things for the final act, isn't she?), which leaves Matthieu, Banus, Belisarius, and Lucien as the Speakers. When Lucien is killed, you replace him. After dealing with the traitor, you are promoted to Listener (and Arquen is therefore demoted back to Speaker). --Gaebrial 03:17, 13 February 2008 (EST)

It seems to me that Arquen simply takes charge of the Speakers because she's been there the longest. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the more contrived we make this, the less likely it's what Bethesda had in mind. Robed Dawnbringer 12:22, 13 February 2008 (EST)

Hello? Please don't go unresponsive on me. Robed Dawnbringer 14:31, 19 February 2008 (EST)

What else is there to discuss? I think you're just making too much of this. Garbrial's reply is the most logical explanation. –RpehTCE 15:44, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Making too much? It is just that there is a cleanup notice on the article which I want to work towards getting rid of. Robed Dawnbringer 16:04, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Okay, I could have possibly phrased that better.... I think the cleanup tag is more about the way in which the article is phrased than any real doubt about what happens and when. That's all. –RpehTCE 16:38, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Verification[edit]

to quote the section "The culprit is a highly ambitious family member by the name of Matthieu Bellamont, who before the game begins is promoted to the rank of Silencer, and thus leaves the Sanctuary." I can find no refernces to the cheydinhal traitor being Mathieu Bellamont and the writer of this section appears to have jumped to the conclusion that he was ever in the cheydinhal sanctuary. Neither his journal nor any in gam text refer to him ever going to the sacntuary. For all we could know the traitor could have been one of the remaining members. Can anyone find any other verifiation for this as it appears to be based around an assumption. --Volanaro Talk 03:22, 17 November 2008 (EST)

Ummm... what exactly is the unfounded assumption here? From the Traitor's Diary it's clear that he was in the Cheydinhal Sanctuary ("I saw Lucien Lachance yesterday. He was in the Sanctuary talking with Ocheeva.") The various Dark Brotherhood cells are apparently independent from one another, which means it's unlikely that Ocheeva would be in any other Sanctuary. From his diary it's also clear that he was promoted to to Silencer. Therefore I don't immediately see any reason to question that sentence. --NepheleTalk 23:42, 21 November 2008 (EST)
Ah! Sorry, completely missed that line. My mistake, guess thats sorted then. --Volanaro Talk 07:13, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Serbian Connection[edit]

The Black Hand wasn't an assassin's faction - it was an organisation devoted to the cause of Serbian nationalism, for whom assassination was just one tool. Whilst I'm sure the designers were influenced by the name I don't think it counts as a direct easter egg. –RpehTCE 12:15, 8 January 2009 (EST)

List of member base on infromation and guess[edit]

listener:ungolim

speaker:Lucien Lachance(cheydihal),J'Ghasta(bruma),Alval Uvani(leyawiin),Arquen(chorrol)

silencer:Shaleez(under Alval Uvani??),Havilstein Hoar-Blood(under J'Ghasta?),Mathieu Bellamont(under Arquen???),player(under Lucien Lachance)

(Vvardfell 03:01, 17 December 2010 (UTC))

I'm not sure what this is about, Vvardfell. Could you clarify? Robin Hoodtalk 04:31, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
I use the detail to draw this conclusion of all member of black hand we know in different time. All speaker is the head of a Sanctuary, and one of them have a silencer. I remember that some one in uesp have make a guess that Sanctuary is in the city of the speaker's house, base on the guess and the dead drop 8 said that arquen can be in chorrol or cheydihal. Since cheydihal is controled by Lucien Lachance, arquen may control a Sanctuary in chorrol.Then i draw the conclusion that which speaker control which Sanctuary.Base on the location of the silencer, i guess which speaker they belong to.I will delete the detail about the ritual and the end, since every one know.But all of these are just guesswork(Vvardfell 03:27, 18 December 2010 (UTC))
Although guess base on guess are not good, I make another guess that the Black Hand member arquen leading is the chorrol family,Banus Alor and Belisarius Arius are executioners, Mathieu Bellamont is sliencer and arquen is speaker as i mentioned in above .Expect the clue mentioned in above responce, Belisarius Arius have said that "Most of my time is now spent on administrative duties. I have not had blood on my hands in far too long! Killing Lachance was pure ecstacy ."It suggested that he is a executioner.I think that in that dangerous moment, arquen can only belive the mamber form his family.(Vvardfell 10:03, 22 December 2010 (UTC))

Arquen vs Bellamont[edit]

The article currently states that Arquen was an original Speaker and that Mathieu Bellamont was a last minute replacement. Is there any evidence for this, other than Arquen's apparent knowledge of the Night Mother ritual? I always thought that it was the other way round, given the fact that Mathieu possessed intimate details on all the Black Hand members, including their identities and locations. Silencers exist solely to enforce their master's personal agendas, so it seems unlikely to me that Mathieu would be sufficiently poised to plot his colleague’s downfall if he was merely someone's assistant throughout the story. Of course we know that he was a Silencer at some point, because he reveals so in his diary. The question is when he was promoted. Personally I think he murdered his Speaker prior to the start of the quest line in order to obtain his seat on the Black Hand. This would account for the rumours in the sanctuary of a Black Hand member being murdered, ("The Black Hand is trying to keep it very hush hush, but one of their own has been assassinated! It would seem the Brotherhood has been infiltrated.") Which seem rather out of place, otherwise. This is further supported by the fact the Bellamont, in his diary, referrers to his Speaker as male ("So Lucien Lachance suggested me! I met with the Speaker, and will serve as his new "Silencer."). We know that J'Ghasta and Avani were both Speakers, which leaves Hoar-Blood and Shaleez as their Silencers. So, unless Mathieu was transferred into Arquen's service after his original Speaker's death she cannot be an original member of the Black Hand. Unfortunately, I no longer possess a copy of the game so I'm unable to check, but I'm fairly confident that my deductions are correct. I realise that Arquen seems the most "senior" of all the make-shift Black Hand members, but it's also possible that she was the Brotherhood's chronicler, or lore-master, which would account for her knowledge and apparent seniority. Sorry this has been so long, but I figured it's better than the article containing potentially false information. If anyone has anything else to add then I'm happy to discuss the matter further. Jayden Matthews 18:27, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your opinion, think arquen may be a night mother like Severa Magia(and she actually is a female), being a local night mother mean she take control of a large area(vvardenfell can't be count as a district along, it is like a province) . I think Blanchard mentioned in the diary was Mathieu Bellamont silencer, as you have mentioned that one of the black hand was assassinated, and according to the diary, the black hand was curious about this event. As i mentioned before Belisarius Arius used to take part in administrative duties, he may be an Executioner of a cyrodiil sanctuary, Banus Alor may be the same. During player eliminating black hand, Ungolim( and may be along with other surviving member of black hand like Alval Uvani who is still alive when J'Ghasta was killed) promote them from exectioner or silencer(the sliencer we killed may also be just promoted) to speaker.

Thinks may happen like this.

Mathieu Bellamont joined the brotherhood and assigned to cheydihal.
Mathieu Bellamont being promoted to become a silencer under a speaker(Blanchard).
Mathieu Bellamont killed his speaker(Blanchard) and assumed his title.
Player joined dark brotherhood and promoted to Eliminator.
Lucien Lachance ask player to perform purification.
Player become a silencer.
By switching dead drop, Mathieu Bellamont tricked player to kill a speaker.
the executioner and the sliencer of that sanctuary was promoted one rank or speaker is killed without replacement.
The silencer was killed by player.
Repeat last 3 step once.
Arquen come to cyrodiil and regroup black hand speakers with Mathieu Bellamont and inviting the highest ranking remember of J'Ghasta and Alval Uvani's sanctuary(Belisarius Arius and Banus Alor) and than trying catch and kill Lucien Lachance and prevent Ungolim's death.
Player killed Ungolim and the rest is history.(Vvardfell 13:02, 28 March 2012 (UTC))

Move[edit]

As there is no actual Black Hand faction in Oblivion should this page be relocated to the lore namespace? That way, we could include information from Cicero's journal in Skyrim. 86.160.140.210 19:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Mathieu Bellamont, Arquen and Blanchard[edit]

The history of the Black Hand states that Arquen was the most senior Speaker after the events at Applewatch, and implies that she was a member of the original Black Hand before the assassination of the other BH members by the player. However we have no evidence for this in the game and the article also says that Mathieu Bellamont was promoted from Silencer to a Speaker at Applewatch, that is also unfounded.

What we do know is that:

  • Bellamont originally comes from the Cheydinhal Sauary
  • Bellamont killed Maria, most likely another CS member, before being appointed as a male Speaker's Silencer at Lucien Lachance's suggestion
  • This appointment happens before the player joins the DB, logically, as we never meet Bellmont, and as a Silencer he would've moved out (diary says he moved after the promotion)
  • We do not know if he has killed anyone besides Maria before being promoted to a Silencer
  • We do know that Bellamont has been kiling DB members after that, including someone called Blanchard according to the diary, it is this kill that alerts the Black Hand to a traitor in the DB
  • Blanchard is most likely the Speaker whom Bellamont served, since there is no mention of what happened to him and nobody else is killing DB/BH members (as far as we know)
  • Bellamont has been speaking to minimally one other Black Hand member after this, so it very likely he is a Speaker now since the other BH member talks about the player Silencer to him = gossip/semi-useful information. (it is more likely that a BH Speaker would mention this to another Speaker as interesting info, rather than Bellamont as Silencer talking to another Silencer or Speaker, especially if it's only gossip like this).
  • Lucien's Silencer "perished while fulfilling a contract." according to Lucien.

NEW ADDITION *Arquen is most likely a Black Hand member before or after the player starts killing the BH since she is the lastest dead drop orders' target. Given that there should be 10 members or less, either 1) replaced Bellamont as his Silencer and then became a Speaker instead of J or AV 2) she replaced Shaleez or Hoar as a Silencer and then became a Speaker 3) she became the 4th Speaker after Bellamont killed his - however why would she be named one instead of Bellamont, since at that point she couldn't have been a BH member? J, AV, LL, a murdered male Speaker and LL's dead Silencer, Bellamont, Hoar and Shaleez+Ungolim were the BH at that point.

  • Since Lucien's position as a Speaker was filled by the player, perhaps one of the 4 BH members at Applewatch is only a Silencer to keep 4 Speakers. Or since Lucien is considered a traitor and they plan on replacing him with you, they've already elected a fifth member as a Speaker to replace Ungolim, since the 5th Speaker will become a Listener (no Silencers in this game have BH robes in their posession, only Speakers, unlike ESO. Also in ESO (almost) everyone in a Sanctuary knows who their Silencer is (or at least the newly appointed one), so perhaps the customs have changed). Perhaps it is a part of the rite since both the Listener and his successor have been killed.

Therefore it is most likely that according to the diary we are meant to assume that Mathieu Bellamont is named a Silencer under Blanchard, and later on kills him. Otherwise we have one male Speaker unnacounted for - who killed him/what happened to him? The rumour by Mraaj-Dar says someone killed a member of the Black Hand, and this perfectly fits the story - his Speaker is eliminated and he is promoted to a Speaker his stead, the same way the player was in Lucien's. Lucien's Silencer was killed while on a contract, so it's more likely this was a coincidence (or an orchestrated one) and the murdered BH member was the Speaker, otherwise Lucien would've told you if thought his Silencer was murdered, rather than perished on a contract (since he thinks you've eliminated the traitor already anyway, so no need to keep it secret if he thought that was what had happened).

This way we have neatly wrapped up who was the murdered Black Hand member, and how did Mathieu learn the identities of everyone else on the BH - as a Speaker he knows them all and is in touch with the other Speakers and the Listener, this would also make more sense why one of the BH members comments about the player Silencer to him: sharing gossip/semi-useful info, the same way Speaker Terenus writes about one of his Sanctuary members to the Listener in the ESO news article about the then upcoming DB expansion.

In this case Arquen would've been named a Speaker either after J'Ghasta or Alval Ulvani died, and the reason why Bellamont did not lead could be that she either held a special position prior to this, giving her priority or more knowledge about the ritual (which has also been suggested by someone in the section above me) or he didn't want the spotlight to be on him, esp. when summoning the Night Mother, so he let her do it.

Conversely after killing his Speaker (since I have no doubt that's what happened to him, otherwise we have a loose end of what happened to him and why doesn't the diary mention him, given how the narrative works - esp. since there's a name, so he's most likely Blanchard), Arquen could've been promoted and Bellamont later, however this way it's not explained how did he learn of the BH members identities', unless all Silencers learn them eventually (which could also be possible).

Therefore I suggest these edits (they're chronological order so it's easier to see):

  • "Ignorant of this, the Black Hand orders Lucien to catch the traitor."

Lucien is actually a part of the BH and says that the BH has decided to order the Purification, not that it ordered to catch the traitor (since all of them are working on it), so this should be changed to reflect that. This might be seen as a nitpick but it's important because it gives the impression that the BH is ordering Lucien to do it and he might not have a say in it, while he has never stated such a thing. We do not know whether he agreed with it or not, however given that he is a part of the Black Hand, he most likely had a say in it as well and he is the one ordering you, the player, to do it after all. It could be changed to "the Black Hand has decided to carry out the rite of Purification in order to kill the traitor. Lucien gives the sacred task to the player (or orders the player to enact this sacred rite etc./tasks the player with the sacred rite) whereby....".

  • "However Bellamont tracks Lucien's couriers and begins switching the drops with contracts of his own."

Correction, Bellamont tracked down Lucien himself to the first dead drop location and switched it according to his dairy. There is a mistake, though, because in the game only the third drop is switched, afterwards Bellamont places the new orders in his own dead drops (Lucien: Your dead drops went unvisited after the 3rd), however in his diary he says he tracked Lucien from Fort Farragut to the first dead drop location switched it, so there is discrepancy between the two.

  • "...and promoting Banus Alor, Belisarius Arius, Mathieu Bellamont and the player to Speakers in place of those lost, establishing a council of five. Arquen, the most senior Speaker, leads the Hand to the Night Mother in search of a new Listener..."

As per my explanation above, this is not true. Only the player is named a Speaker. Also depending on which theory you ascribe to, either Arquen, Bellamont, or any of the other two BH members could've been the eldest Speaker present (since it's never ruled out that Banus or Belisarius could've promoted in place of Bellamont's Speaker, J or Alval).

Edit: I actually already made the edits, here's the explanation behind them. However as it's not 100% confirmed that Blanchard is Mathieu's new Speaker, perhaps I should edit out that bit I put there? That way it will be completely unbiased, although in my opinion the diary does point to him, otherwise it makes no sense for it to mention Blanchard and never explain who he was, since it explains everything else.

EDIT2: Actually, I forgot about Dead Drop Orders 8, where Bellamont orders you to kill Arquen. Given that you've eliminated 2x Speakers and their two Silencers (unless Bellamont was promoted to a Speaker and one of them was his new Silencer), it's either likely that she was a Speaker (replacing J, AV or Blanchard/4th Speaker) or a Silencer (serving him or J/AV) at that point.