House Hlaalu editing?Edit
Pardon me if this is my lack of understanding about how this works, but I can't seem to edit the main section of this page. When I attempt to do so, I get only the other sections. I wanted to add a comment about Ilmeni to the mention of abolitionists in the general summary of the main House Hlaalu article.Fourtoes 12:04, 11 December 2007 (EST)
OK, I did figure this out. I had to edit the Template. This is something that ought to be explained better in the main editing guide.Fourtoes 12:04, 11 December 2007 (EST)
- this problem is very widespread — Unsigned comment by Temple-Zero (talk • contribs)
"House Hlaalu is also strongly against slavery, no doubt a side-effect of its relation with the Empire, and while not going as far as becoming abolitionists, house members make it clear that slaves are not acceptable. The Telvanni, because of this, have a generically low opinion of House Hlaalu, preferring Redoran's spirit and courage over Hlaalu's profit hunger and dishonourable dealings. Actually, one low-profile but well-connected member of House Hlaalu is not just an abolitionist but a leader within the Twin Lamps movement. That's Ilmeni Dren. "
Is the above even canon? As far as I recall several of the prominent Hlaalu use slaves, Nevana Ules, the Arvel family and the Dren Plantation spring to mind.
Secondly Hlaalu uses slaves in the Caldera Mine.
- Yeah, it's rather iffy. The Twin Lamps quests are part of the House Hlaalu quest line, and the major abolitionist movement is based in House Hlaalu, them being the most friendly of the Great Houses to the Empire - which is completely anti-slavery. However, House Hlaalu also has ties with the Camonna Tong, which is very much pro-slavery. It's also not very well-written - "generically"? I'd say the paragraph needs a serious rewrite to take these factors into consideration. --TheRealLurlock Talk 16:46, 23 December 2007 (EST)
Always in favor of the empire?Edit
I found that the opening statement of the Tamriel article only covers the front the House puts up. Isn't it more precise to describe them as opportunistic? They saw an opportunity to ally themselves with the Imperial Invaders, seeking to gain trade a well as land holdings in the reorganization of Morrowind's regions. Ashlanders were screwed out of promised grounds, and House Redoran was severely weakened, only gaining lesser lands. House Hlaalu grabbed the plantations in the Ascadian Isles and the Ebony mine in Caldera. i was thinking of revamping this article, along with the ambiguity about slavery, and covering the duality of at once being supportive of the Empire while actively working towards its downfall. I'd welcome any input beforehand as well as when I get a draft going. =Cheers, Benould•T•C 02:22, 14 April 2008 (EDT)
The ruling Lord High Councilor of House Indoril was assassinated, and replaced by Hlaalu Grand Master Vedam Dren, thus becoming Duke of the Imperial District of Vvardenfell.
The Telvanni, because of the many double-standards, have a generically low opinion of House Hlaalu, preferring Redoran's spirit and courage over Hlaalu's profit hunger and dishonorable dealings.
What is the source of these two statements?
The first statement seems to come from the book "On Morrwind". But the Indoril was killed shortly after the conquest of Tiber Septim. That would make Vedam Dren older then Barenziah. And are we even sure that the Grand Council mentioned in this book is the same as the Grand Council at Ebonheart?
I could find nothing that would indicate that the Telvanni favored the Redoran somehow. Their faction disposition to both Redoran and Hlaalu is -1.
- A few answers, as far as I can see the source is indeed On Morrowind. You're not disputing the assassination of the High Councilor, right? That it was Vedam Dren that replaced him is a reading-between-the-lines, House Hlaalu did not have many leaders or much influence before the Armistice. The Dren family, per in-game dialog, is described as a leading family for many generations, and the current positions of power and landholdings did not appear overnight. As to his age, ~350 years is not that long for an Elf, specially in a cushy backwater post like Vvardenfell, largely uninhabited and guarded by the Temple. The Grand Council was established as part of that peace accord between Vivec and Septim, striking a delicate balance of Imperial rule, but preserving face for the Dunmer with the Council and the figure-head King in Mournhold. See the PGE 3rd Edition, "The treaty gave Morrowind autonomy and gave the Septim Empire the means to conquer the rest of Tamriel: an equitable solution for both parties involved." and this "Three of Nerevar's associates among the Orthodox Houses, Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil, succeeded to control of the re-created First Council, re-named the Grand Council of Morrowind, and went on to be come the god-kings and immortal rulers of Morrowind known as the Tribunal, or Almsivi." - The War of the First Council
- As to the Telvanni, those are in-game dialoges turned into a sentence. Redoran warriors were traditionally hired as house-guards for the Mage Lords, although that changed after the opening of Vvardenfell, when Telvanni and Redoran started to butt heads over territory. House Hlaalu are the upstarts, and allies of the Imperial Occupants, not a stretch to say that the xenophobic and ancient Mage Lords look down upon the "two-faced" Yellows. Further, the Telvanni are very power-conscious, and the waning House Redoran doesn't pose much of a threat. Who did Master Aryon turn to when seeking to break the Mages Guild monopoly? Old Redoran, certainly not the "Imperial lackeys" of House Hlaalu. Also see Brown Book of 3E 426, where Telvanni complain about the Dukes attempts to limit expansion and Slavery. And there is this: "According to Telvanni principles, the powerful define the standards of virtue, and the Telvanni are unwilling to allow the ambitious Hlaalu to dominate Vvardenfell's untapped resources by default." - Great Houses of Morrowind --Benould•T•C 16:32, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
There are a few problems I have with your first answer:
1. The Wolf Queen series of books say that Empress Katariah (married to Mad Pelagius) was duchess of Vvardenfell, before she became empress. How is this possible if Vedam Dren has been the duke since 3e 1? 3E 141 Pelagius, King of Solitude, is recorded as "occasionally eccentric" in the Imperial Annals. He marries Katarish, Duchess of Vvardenfell. 2. The book "A short history of Morrowind" states that the Vvardenfell district only became open to imperial colonisation in 3E 414. This would indicate that there were no Imperial representatives on the Ebonheart Grand Council before 3e 414.
I think that in fact there are two Grand Councils. There is one in Mournhold (perhaps overseen by Helseth) that decides things that are a concern to the whole of Morrowind. And there is a Grand Council in Ebonheart (overseen by Dren) who only makes descisions concerning Vvardenfell. This theory is supported by "A Short history of Morrowind" and the PGE 3.
The new District was divided into Redoran, Hlaalu, Telvanni, and Temple Districts, each separately administered by local House Councils or Temple Priesthoods, and all under the advice and consent of Duke Dren and the District Council in Ebonheart.
Helseth's reformation of the Grand Council, which includes the heads of all the Great Houses, was seen by some as a return to more traditional Dunmer ways.
- Well, if you read The Real Barenziah, it states that Mournhold and Ebonheart were once twin city states, and long have been rivals. Mournhold had the King, Ebonheart the Grand Council, which was a coordinating body for Dunmer Houses to settle their squabbles. You're assumption that it did not have Imperial representation before the opening of Vvardenfell may be correct, or there are more then one Imperial commission; there are notes that Narsis had an Imperial Proconsul. BTW, Helseth is after all this, ~3E 429, so he had no bearing on our dispute.
- I'll have to read up on Katariah, since On Morrowind only says "Hlaalu Noble", and gives no name. Was Katariah a Hlaalu? --Benould•T•C 11:33, 29 July 2008 (EDT)
I included the qoute about Helseth because I think there are two Grand Councils. One is the Vvardenfel District council overseen by Vedam Dren (like "A short history" mentions). The other council is led by Helseth and convenes on matters that affect the whole of Morrowind. The PGE 3 states that the Grand Council that Helseth now runs, contains the heads of all the Great Houses. This council can't be the same as seen in Ebonheart. For starters no Great Hose leaders even attend the council. Secondly, where are the Dres and Indoril leaders/ and or representatives? What we do see however is that every major faction of Vvardenfel has a representative on the Vvardenfell council (Imperial Cult, Temple, Redoran, Telvanni, Hlaalu). Thus I think it is more likely that the Vvardenfel council is just a district council.
I also found some things in the CS that seem to back my case:
(Politics and Religion) Vvardenfell District's Grand Council, presided over by the sovereign Lord Vedam Dren, Duke of Ebonheart and Vvardenfell, is dominated by five interest groups: the three Great Houses, the Temple, and the Imperial colonists. The Temple and House Redoran are champions of ancient Dunmer customs and privileges, and uncompromising and intolerant worshippers of the native religion call the Tribunal Temple, which venerates three immortal god-kings -- Lord Vivec, Lord Sotha Sil, and Lady Almalexia.
(Ebonheart) Castle Ebonheart is the seat of Imperial authority on Vvardenfell. Here Duke Vedam Dren, Duke of Ebonheart, and the Vvardenfell Grand Council determine law and policy for the Vvardenfell administrative district.
There is also not a single source that explictly states that Vedam Dren is the Hlaalu that replaced the Indoril High Councilor on the Grand Council. For all we know it was Dram Bero. Just because Vedam Dren is on the Grand Council now doesn't mean he has always been.
Lastly, the Real Barenziah doesn't mention any type of council being in Ebonheart. It just states that the nations/duchies were once ruled by the same noble family but that later they fell apart. Mournhold held the right to elect the High King which pissed of Ebonheart.
And lastly, the Lore junkies/khans say that there are actually two Ebonhearts. There is the city of Old Ebonheart on the main land (the city mentioned in the Real Barenziah) and there is the Castle Ebonheart we see in TESIII. (http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=838225&hl=ebonheart)
188.8.131.52 15:55, 29 July 2008 (EDT)Ãpophis2412
- So you didn't find any reference that Katariah was a Hlaalu either, eh? Now how does Dram Bero come into the picture? I repeat myself in stating that Vivec created the Grand Council, mimicked after The First Council (which included six houses, the Dwemer and possible the Ashlanders), as a matter of preserving face for the Dunmer after the Armistice. Those two "councils" are documented, there's only a "few" millennium between them. If you want to replace one speculation with another, hmm, not sure what to say.
- I think there is enough doubt to retreat the statement about Vedam Dren being the "direct" replacement of the High Councilor. As to Helseth and his reforms, those take place after TES III and even Tribunal, so again have no bearing on the Morrowind Hlaalu article, although something could be stated on the Tamriel/Lore article. As to who is represented at the Grand Council, it looks TES III made a choice which Houses are in the loop, and Indoril is represented indirectly through the Temple. The opening of Vvardenfell most likely represented a shift of focus to the east, away from the mainland, as House Redoran moved their council to Ald'ruhn from Blacklight, something Bolvyn Venim is credited for, saving the House from irrelevancy. As to Ebonheart, yes the placement on the map has changed considerably, as referenced in the Lore:Ebonheart article, but I've seen no documentation of TWO Ebonheart existing at the same time, so not sure what you're trying to say there.--Benould•T•C 16:48, 29 July 2008 (EDT)
There is no record as to which House Katariah belonged to, though it is likely to be Hlaalu. I doubt any Indoril, Redoran, Telvanni or Dress would marry an outlander, let alone the emperor.
The two qoutes from the CS seem to indicate that the Grand Council in Ebonheart only decides matters concerning Vvardenfel. Even this site's article on Ebonheart agrees with me:
Castle Ebonheart is the seat of Imperial authority on Vvardenfell. From here, the Duke of Ebonheart, Vedam Dren, and his Grand Council determine law and policy for the Vvardenfell administrative district.
I added Dram Bero to show that we have no idea who replaced the Indoril High Councilor on the Grand Council. It could have been Dram Bero or it could have been someone we don't know about. The only things that are really known about Vedam Dren himself is that he was Hlaalu Grandmaster before he became Duke of Vvardenfell.
And I found the reference to the two Ebonhearts:
Where was I.... ah, yes.... arriving at the One True Ebonheart. There is much confusion of the "two" Ebonhearts, of which I shall explain at another time.
pictures are a bit messed up.Edit
Because of the lay-out of Lore:House_Hlaalu, some of the pictures in Morrowind:House_Hlaalu show up wrong. It might also be an idea to add the following qoute to this page, since the current qoute seems a bit to much pro-Hlaalu:
In the great wind of progress, tradition cannot stand. Grasp fortune by the forelocks. When you see your chances, seize them. When you see a chance to turn a profit, take it. But do not follow money blindly. There is value in reputation, more than many young Hlaalu realize. This value must be carefully balanced against the more tangible coins in any deal. Theft and murder are bad for business. You can steal from someone, but will he trade with you after that? You can't bargain with a dead man. --Grasping Fortune
Apophis2412 05:08, 2 August 2008 (EDT)Apophis2412
A bit biased???Edit
The line "House Hlaalu can be characterized as opportunistic, as any morals they might have come second to business." from the page is a little overly negative IMHO. If you read 'Grasping Fortune', it's clear that business does not always 'come first'. In fact the entire tone of the introduction to the House is very negative, especially when compared with the other Houses.
For example, "House Redoran's current leader, Bolvyn Venim, is somewhat unscrupulous for a Redoran;" implies that House Redoran is generally scrupulous, while "While some councilors will obviously be honest and fair, many are under-handed and corrupt;" implies that House Hlaalu is generally corrupt.
Maybe I'm too close to the House, but the corruption we see in Morrowind is all linked to The Cammona Tong, not the House as such (for example, most of the corrupt members of the House - especially the Council, are also members of the Cammona Tong, while non-members of the Tong are more honest). I want to edit the article to be a little more impartial and to reference the Tong as a major part of the 'corruption'. But I do want to check with others first. --OblivionDuruza 09:26, 6 August 2011 (UTC)