Lore talk:The Towers

The Doomcrag

A previously unmentioned tower (The Doomcrag) is found in ESO in Rivenspire at the site of Erokii an Ayleid ruin, shouldn't a section be added to the article to reflect this? Possibly calls for the creation of an Erokii lore article as well.--StormySkies (talk) 04:24, 1 August 2014 (GMT)

Yeah, it probably should. Do you have any specific information/dialogue/quest details/books that talk about The Doomcrag that we could use? -- Hargrimm^(T) 04:42, 1 August 2014 (GMT)

Erokii definitely needs a lore article at some point, as it was once the greatest Ayleid city in the northwest. There is more information available in the dialogue of related quests I think, but for now, you can find Doomcrag and Erokii information in Dire Legends of the Doomcrag and Tears of Anurraame, as well as in two loading screens: Doomcrag - Morachellis speculated that the Ayleids who built the great spire above Erokii were attempting to create a metaphysical structure that would be a focus of Aurbic power, much as the Adamantine Tower is said to be. I have no idea what that means. —Phrastus of Elinhir; Erokii Ruins - The crumbling walls, arches, and tunnels in Shrouded Pass are all that is left of Erokii, once the greatest Ayleid city in northwest Tamriel. Its destruction occurred so far in the past that no one today knows the date of its downfall. --Enodoc (talk) 08:23, 1 August 2014 (GMT)

The Pillar of Thras

As described in The Doors of Oblivion, the Pillar doesn't appear to have any Tower-like characteristics, but the Journal of Tsona-Ei correlates the sinking of Thras with a massive coral tower (very similar to the Pillar of Thras, and likely one and the same since Tsona-Ei does not mention any other tall coral spires visible on the islands), implying that the Sload sunk their islands of their own volition. My line of thinking is that the Pillar is a Tower because it served as the foundation for Thras. The Sload used it to keep Thras whole and afloat, or anchored to Mundus, and could loosen the binding at will to submerge Thras (either into the ocean or another realm; speculation that the Pillar is a door to Oblivion coupled with Tsona-Ei's experience hints at the latter, although whether Tsona-Ei ends up in the realm Thras retreated to or another realm entirely is unclear). The submersion would be visible to onlookers as the islands physically breaking up. Likewise, the Sload could raise or re-anchor Thras using the Pillar, which would explain how the Sload were able to restore their home after the Navy's attack.
Granted, this is a lot of conjecture on my part, but I figured I should put it out there. Croaker (talk) 01:30, 16 August 2014 (GMT)

I tend to agree that the Pillar is likely a Tower, but it's never explicitly described as such. If we started getting into Tower candidates on this page, it will open the floodgates to a lot more speculation. The page notes that other Towers may exist, but what they might be is a subject best left to the forums unless and until we get more information. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 19:16, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

Wouldn't the amount of towers be restrained to the amount of "spokes" or am I missing something? ChildofKyne (talk) 19:25, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

Possibly, but then, we're not really sure how many spokes there are. Believers in Talos would then argue there should be at least nine spokes, but we're only listing eight Towers thus far. The pantheons of the Divines are possibly incomplete; there could be other spokes which have been forgotten by mortals. There were far more Aedra than the 8 the Alessians chose to center their worship upon, and several Tamrielic cultures don't limit their deities to 8 or 9. There's a lot of speculation among lore buffs that the Mane and Khajiit are another Tower/Stone pair. Falinesti might be a Tower (but whose Tower is unclear, since the Bosmer already have one). Then there's the Ceporah Tower, and I've seen references to a little-addressed Prolix Tower. And the developers might see fit to add more we haven't heard about yet, or add more failed Tower attempts similar to the Doomcrag. Anyway, it's all highly speculative. We could add several paragraphs of pure conjecture on the subject, but I'd rather leave it to the forums. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 19:48, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

I posted my views about this here, and I think there's enough evidence to warrant at least a mention on this page. The entire premise of the article is to outline conjecture. —Legoless (talk) 23:20, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

I was preparing a whole section for the Doomcrag, but I suppose a note works just as well. The issue with the Pillar is that there's not, to my knowledge, any official conjecture on the Pillar being a Tower, or even relevant unofficial works, just fan suspicion. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 23:30, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

orc tower

As there a tower for each mer, is there an orsimer tower? — Unsigned comment by 80.15.155.105 (talk) at 16:21 on 17 December 2015

None that we know of, although sources in that matter are scarce. Due to the speculative nature of this subject, I suggest heading over to our forums if you wish to elaborate further. -- SarthesArai ^Talk 20:46, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Orichalc has no in game sources? Should it even be included or moved to notes?

Orichalc Tower doesn't have a single in game source. Not for it's name, not for it's location, not for it's existence. Every single relevant source in the section is OOG. I know MK is sourced in the section, but without a single reference in the game I don't believe it even belongs in the notes, let alone the core page.Buaf (talk) 02:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Since there are no in-game sources, the {{fact}} template isn't really going to help, as nothing is going to come from it. It's already stated in the Notes that most of the Orichalc entry is guesswork. This page didn't exist for the longest time solely because much of it is OOG, but we decided it had a place considering there are a number of obscure references in-game to the Towers, even if the overall metaphysical purpose of them is not really dealt with. If we're going to assume all the others are legit Towers, despite Nu-Mantia Intercept being the only thing connecting them, it would be negligent to miss off Orichalc solely because Nu-Mantia is its only source. --Enodoc (talk) 10:35, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Simply put, you can't have an obscure lore article like The Towers, and then relegate one of the main Towers to the notes section because it doesn't have an official mention. It defeats the whole purpose of allowing OOG.

When these obscure lore pages were created, there was an understanding that much of their contents rely on MK texts. It was decided that as long as OOG fills in gaps and isn't conflicting with official lore, it can be used. That's why we changed the Stone of Greep Sap from MK's Falinesti to ESO's Acorn. Obscure lore pages like this are fringe and get a little more leeway vs regular lore pages - hence the guesswork and assumptions. No one who follows the obscure lore would disagree with that. The Towers is 80% based on Nu Mantia Intercept alone. Picking and choosing what parts of that text we want to include isn't going to go anywhere and worse, make the page look poorer as a result. --Jimeee (talk) 10:51, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I echo the above. —Legoless (talk) 13:00, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I would respectfully disagree, however the consensus is against me so I'll gladly accept it. Maybe we specifically note that the Orichalc is not mentioned in any in game sources, and may not be a Tower because of it? I feel like it is important to note that every other tower is referenced to in game.I felt like the {{fact}} expresses doubt on the content without removing it which is why I put it there, but maybe a note at the end is better. Buaf (talk) 19:38, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe a note like this? —Legoless (talk) 23:10, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, that's not bad. That or saying "Orichalc is never mentioned in any in game sources, and therefore it's existence may be disputed". I'm content with the current change so I won't press any more. Thanks. Buaf (talk) 00:10, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

(←) Existing references to "Orichalc" could later be connected to a Tower by this name. The games are always revealing new meanings to old lore. Once upon a time, I thought "Jarl" was the first name of some First Era Nord nobleman - and that's how the wiki presented it, too. Anyway, I think the simple fact of noting this omission speaks volumes, but we should hedge our bets by stating it in a completely inarguable way. I'd prefer simply "No 'Orichalc Tower' has ever been mentioned in any official material." Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 22:53, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Does Red Mountain Is Dead?

Should we be saying that Red Tower is inactive right now? There's no real evidence in game for this to be the case, as it was active long before Kagrenac bound the Heart, and the Heart has just returned to that pre-bound state. The evidence for it we do have comes wholly from a brief allusion in the Nu-Mantia Intercept. On the one hand, this is the UOL that formed the basis for a lot of the tower stuff going forward. On the other, not every concept from Nu-Mantia or even MK's tower ideas has or should be considered canon (see: Jills, identities of the stones for Crystal, Green-Sap, etc), and there is much stronger in game support for the Tower pages statements now thanks to Summerset, ESO, and honestly just doing some digging. Additionally, our current policy is to only use UOL to support and contribute to things alluded to in game, and the deactivation of Red Tower is not. Jacksol (talk) 19:53, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

"identities of the stones for Green-Sap" acorns (Perchance Acorn) are literally the fruits of oak trees (not that its relevant, just thought it should be noted) The Rim of the Sky (talk) 19:57, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

(Dont be silly, how can a fruit be brown? Clearly I wasn’t being stupid and am still correct) 100.36.106.60 20:53, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

damn, now that i think about it u might be onto somethin, i never seen a brown fruit 😳🤔 The Rim of the Sky (talk) 21:44, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

I looked it up and Acorns are a fruit, they are the fruit of the Oak Tree. So they are both a Nut or Fruit and can be called either word. I just saw that Rim of the Sky said the same thing as I was typing this. We know lorewise the Towers have to have a heart in order to function. Red Mountain tower would likely be shut down(Not the Volanco itself as that would still be active and likely does not need the heart to work)) because it no longer has the heart of Lorkhan because we actually freed the heart from its bindings and likely that the Heart was there since Auriel Shot it into the Sea trapped and the volcano formed around it. By freeing it would mean there is no more Tower Stone there to power the Tower itself. Its also possible the Heart was actually keeping the Volcano from fully erupting.

That could be what Trembling means in the prophecy Red Tower trembles because it lost its heart. As the prophecy does seem to imply the towers are falling or being deactivated. If it says that is what is happening in the Uol source I still think we should be using it. Because we know several things, Brass Tower got destroyed along with its heart, Crystal Tower got destroyed as well and that is actually canon, White Gold Tower loses its heart stone the Amulet of Kings and the amulet is its heart and that is canon. Red Mountain loses its heart stone because it was freed all together from its bindings which means it would no longer be in the tower itself and be able to do whatever it wanted I guess. Snow Tower is wounded but that does not mean its deactivated yet. So yes there is something to the Towers, where many towers have been shut down or destroyed all in the Third Era/Forth Era time frame. That it maybe worth mentioning and having that source do to that fact. TheVampKnight (talk) 00:24, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Renaming / relocating "Lore:The Towers" to "Lore:Towers"

Responding to the request for input posted at the top of subject page. Due to the common usage of the mundane word tower to describe any number of organized structures of common stone or wood, I would not be inclined to agree with renaming The Towers to Towers. If anything, I would go the other way and change it from The Towers to The Towers of Nirn or similar, to help differentiate. I see no value in removing the word "The" from the page title. My two cents.— Unsigned comment by Solomon1972 (talk • contribs) at 20:16 on 23 January 2022 (UTC)

It should not include the article per WP:NCTHE. -Dcsg (talk) 20:32, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Your reference to the Wikipedia article clarifying the use of a definite article "The" at the beginning is only supporting my argument. When we talk about "towers," or, "a tower," that is distinct from when we talk about these specific magical towers. If I say this is an article about The Towers, it is clear that I am talking about a specific group of towers. And using The Towers of Nirn makes it even more clear.— Unsigned comment by Solomon1972 (talk • contribs) at 21:21 on 23 January 2022 (UTC)

For clarity I think the title should remain the same. The article isn't about towers generally. —⁠Legoless (talk) 01:52, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

The issue with specificity is not a concern because there will never be a lore page about regular lowercase towers. -Dcsg (talk) 08:22, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I fully support this rename. The opening quote of this article mentions the Towers without the 'the', as well as the infamous Staff of Towers. Dcsg's reasoning that no article will be made for regular towers is sound, as well as his citation of the Wikipedia style guide. Mindtrait0r (talk) 22:34, 18 June 2023 (UTC)