Lore talk:House Indoril

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Re-write[edit]

Take a look at my re-write of the Lore:House Indoril article, it needs some more eyes to finish. I checked facts to the best of my abilities, within the named resources, TIL and cross-referenced the original wikipedia article. Among other things, a consensus needs to be reached on whether Vivec city is Temple or partially Indoril holdings. Cheers, --BenouldTC 17:44, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

I see this article was updated a while ago. I fixed some small errors about Narsis and about Nerevar being the founder of House Indoril.
I also found this image of an Indoril clan member on the old UESP pages. Although it looks like an Ordinator, the picture might be worth adding to this article.
Link: indoril.jpg
Apophis2412 14:20, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
It's also available on the wiki at File:MW-concept-11.jpg. --NepheleTalk 16:45, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
I removed the image because it messes up the formatting on the Great Houses and Factions pages where it's transcluded. I left it there on the House Indoril page, so it's still visible here. If you could find a more horizontal image that won't make such a huge "thumb", that might be preferable. --TheRealLurlock Talk 18:06, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Color[edit]

What is Indoril's color? Hlaalu is yellow, Redoran is red, Telvanni is brown, and Dres is gray (according to the link on its page). -- --Mebestien 06:08, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

What page do you mean by "its page"? The House Dres page? The Great Houses page? And which namespace? Morrowind or Lore? - Game LordTalk|Contribs 11:03, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
Sorry. On the House Dres page in Lore is a link to an external website that states that its color is gray. The other three houses are known from their books, I believe. I don't know where to find Indoril's official color. -- --Mebestien 17:30, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
You will also notice, however, that shortly before the link is written, "An exhaustive, but also partly fictional, study on House Dres". I can't say for certain about Hlaalu, Redoran, and Telvanni, but as those are generally considered the three biggest great houses, it is more likely for them to have their own color as it is for House Indoril or House Dres. - Game LordTalk|Contribs 05:06, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
Those three are the most significant on Vvardenfell, not on a whole, I think. 'Hhouse color' sounds a little hokey, and more like a preference or minor symbol. (Unless some source explains it explicitly?) Also, IIRC that source tends more towards fanon, as opposed to the analysis articles, which arrive at fan-made conclusions but do not infer or make up any facts. Both types have their own purpose.24.31.156.165 08:19, 10 October 2008 (EDT)Temple-Zero

Vivec[edit]

Where is it suggested that the City of Vivec is an Indoril holding? As far as I can recall, House Indoril has absolutely no holdings on Vvardenfell. The City of Vivec is held by the three Great Houses found on Vvardenfell and the Temple, and is built in the Velothi style. — Unsigned comment by 99.188.210.43 (talk) on December 23, 2008

I think I see the sentence you mean. The author meant to say that the Indoril protect Temple holdings such as the religious sites in Vivec and the holy city in its entire. Basically just referring to the Ordinators and the majority of Temple members who are likely Indoril-born. As for Indoril having *absolutely* no holdings on Vvardenfell, it's more like they have absolutely no presence in-game, which has come to mean the same thing.74.65.142.202 19:50, 23 December 2008 (EST)

who is the master of indoril[edit]

who is the master of indoril,why isn't he or she in Mournhold.Is he or she in necrom.(Vvardfell 03:26, 27 November 2010 (UTC))

There's no information about who it is, although I suppose you could argue that it's Almalexia herself given her role in Tribunal. Otherwise, the ruler is probably in Necrom. rpeh •TCE 09:50, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion,indoril nerevar is almalexia's husband,after nerevar die ,almalexia succeed his place,since almalexia won't died,she is the master of indoril for 3500 years(Vvardfell 03:27, 28 November 2010 (UTC))
According to the book, Lives Of The Saints, Saint Delyn was once the head of House Indoril. The era in which saint delyn lived in is unknown. But it suggests that the leader of house Indoril is always a mortal. (Niwcsc (talk) 04:31, 19 May 2013 (GMT))

Recent Edit[edit]

This edit sparked some research on my part and I am unsure of what should be correct. According to Lore:Great Houses, there are 5 modern Houses and 3 Historic Ones. I can see how House Dwemer wouldn't be an original house, but that leaves House Sotha that I am not sure of. If there are 6 original Houses they would be Hlaalu, Telvani, Redoran, Dres, Indoril, and Dagoth. --DKong27 Talk Cont 03:26, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

There really isn't a clear cut answer here. The description on Lore:Sotha Sil describes House Sotha as a minor house, either Lore:Sotha Sil is wrong (Describes house Sotha as a minor house). Or we need to remove Sotha and Dwemer from Lore:Great Houses, unless an in-game source or developer comment backs there inclusion on that page. But the lack of sources on that page makes this even more confusing. I say we keep it as seven until this further contradictory evidence is presented though. --AKB Talk Cont Mail 03:36, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
At the time of my edit, I was unaware that Dwemer and Sotha were houses to begin with. Upon further inspection, and this is purely my opinion based on what I've read on the site, House Dwemer was only considered a house by some, though House Sotha, assuming that it really was destroyed by Mehrunes Dagon, would indicate that it was indeed, a seventh house. However, it should also be taken into consideration that Houses Dwemer and Sotha are, at best, rarely mentioned at all in game, and also that the Great Houses' traditions "derive from ancient Dunmer clan and tribes," so could a Tribunal diety, whose works are of more modern times, be the basis for a true Great House? There is a serious lack of information on House Sotha. --Ryandom93 04:05, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm not convinced about House Sotha. The only evidence for its existence is one line of dialogue (see Morrowind talk:Ald Sotha), and that calls it minor in any case. House Dwemer aren't an "original" house or even a proper one. They only get called a house to fit in with the required nomenclature for the First Council. rpeh •TCE 08:28, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Indoril Names?[edit]

Is there a set naming system for individuals from House Indoril? In the older lore Indoril seemed like it always came before the rest of the name, like "Indoril Nerevar" or "Indoril Brindisi Dorom." But since ESO has come out, now Indoril members seem to have it at the end like House Hlaalu. What's with the change? Did they change the lore of the house when they made ESO or has it always been this way? And just now it's obvious because Indoril plays a larger part in the game. — Unsigned comment by 66.87.103.188 (talk) at 09:55 on 28 June 2015 (UTC)

You have to remember the difference between House Indoril, which is a political organization centered around the Indoril family, and the family itself (the same goes for all other houses of course). In case of family members, the name Indoril, Hlaalu, Dres etc usually comes last (Tanval Indoril, Relen Hlaalu, Omin Dres etc.). Of the central families of the Great Houses, only the Hlaalu appeared in Morrowind (for example Eno Hlaalu, as well as the Hlaalu Ancestral Tomb). Members of the other families appeared in later titles, like Skyrim or ESO. In case of members of the whole house, the house name often comes first (a notable example is king Hlaalu Athyn Llethan, as seen for example here), although this is not really consistent - for instance, Nerevar is referred both as "Indoril Nerevar" (for example here) and as "Nerevar Indoril" (here) --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 13:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
There can of course also be changes in traditions from chimer times, but it hard to tell without more evidence. Sotha Sil was the sole survivor of the minor House Sotha. On the other hand, as far as I can remember we lack information about if he was a member of the Sotha family or if he was not and just a member of House Sotha. —MortenOSlash (talk) 13:50, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
There's no real pattern when it comes to putting the surname first or last. It's not unique to Indoril though, another example being King Hlaalu Helseth of the Ra'athim Clan. —Legoless (talk) 13:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Out-of-place wording[edit]

This sentence is a non sequitur thrice over:

"It was the House of Chimer hero Lord Indoril Nerevar, and Indoril Brindisi Dorom, the Duke-Prince of Mournhold, who ruled that city during its destruction by Mehrunes Dagon in 1E 2920."

First, it's unclear what Indoril Nerevar's relationship to House Indori is, if he is "House of Chimer". And it's unclear what "Indoril" means in Brindisi Dorom. Indoril seems to be the given name of Nerevar, but seems to be an adjective in Dorom's case (i.e., the person named Indoril Nerever, and the Indoril named Brindisi Dorom). If the implication is that Indoril Neverar, a Chimer, founded House Indoril, that needs to be stated outright. Third, "that city" has no referent. No city is mentioned in the entire paragraph, and two cities (Almalexia and the interior city of Mournhold within it, like the Vatican City within Rome) were mentioned in the previous paragraph. I don't know enough about the lore of that era to rewrite the material myself. — Darklocq  ¢ 07:34, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps it does need rewording, but I will attempt to explain it so that we can come up with new wording if necessary.
  • It (Indoril) was the House to which the Chimer hero Lord Indoril Nerevar belongs.
  • Dunmer names like Indoril Nerevar are traditionally written family/House name first, so in Cyrodilic we would usually write Nerevar Indoril. It is unclear (but also not really relevant) whether Brindisi Dorom is in the Indoril family or just part of the House, since the House name goes first anyway.
  • Brindisi Dorom is "The Duke-Prince of Mournhold". "That city" is Mournhold, per the preceding sentence.
--Enodoc (talk) 15:13, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Indoril Armour[edit]

I notice that there is a lot of pictures with Indoril armour, however this armour is Indoril in name only and unless there are named Ordinators in House Indoril, the pictures have little reason to be present in the page.— Unsigned comment by ThomasTheWest (talkcontribs) at 19:56 on 15 January 2021

My line of reasoning when overhauling the page (and one I continue to stand by) was that the armor being called "Indoril armor" is more than enough reason to include depictions of it on the House Indoril page, regardless of who or what is wearing it. The style itself is of House Indoril. Note that each image depicting the armor has a caption pointing out the Indoril armor, not the Ordinator who is wearing it.
--Feran Derethi (talk) 18:31, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
The armour itself is never mentioned as being a House armour, but rather something exclusive to the Temple.
The reasoning for its naming (in Morrowind at least) is that there are many members of House Indoril in the ranks of the Ordinators.
"Indoril armor is the ornate heavy armor style worn by Ordinators, a military order of knights in service of the Tribunal Temple. Gold leaf details the pauldrons, bracers, and helm of this insect-shell laminate armor. So many Ordinators come from House Indoril that the armor style is known as 'Indoril' armor, though knights of all Great Houses may serve as Ordinators."
It's also worth pointing out that Ordinators will specifically mention that the armour is sacred to their order (that of the Ordinators, not the House) when the player has it equiped and talks to them, and there is no mention of it being an armour that is associated directly with the House.--ThomasTheWest (talk) 21:19, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
I am of the Opinion the one type of armor Eso Morrowind and Legends that matches what is seen in Morrowind is of the House because its named Indoril armor, but we don't know the exact Origins of the other types of Ordinator armor with a different style. I'm of the opinion we keep the images that match what is seen with the style itself in Morrowind. Then keep out the other images that don't exactly match it unless we get a confirmation the armor is all of Indoril make. The Lore is quite clear House Indoril is the one that founded the Ordinator Order. One of the styles is written by a member of the house as well. So there is heavy evidence to support at least one form of the armor is of the house's make, this isn't the case with all the variations of the armor though. (TheVampKnight (talk) 14:17, 17 January 2021 (UTC))
There is no evidence to suggest that it's a property of House Indoril, and we do have information that says it's an exclusive property of the Temple/Ordinators. Many members of House Indoril have been involved in the founding and the design of the armour, but there is no lore information that says House Indoril (as an institution, not individual members) is inseperable from the Temple in the context of the Ordinators. Since we have an explicit and definite confirmation from TES III that the armour is
Indoril in name only, and that Ordinators and their armour are not exclusive to any one House, there is no canon information to dispute this.--ThomasTheWest (talk) 14:32, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
It's worth pointing out that the Indoril armor mask is named as such because it is said to depict the face of Indoril Nerevar. The armor is tangentially related to House Indoril but I agree that so many images of it were not needed. —⁠Legoless (talk) 19:22, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
I agree with Legoless and Thomas here. It's obvious it's called Indoril armor after Indoril Nerevar.Zebendal (talk) 09:12, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Concept Art in the Main Body of the Article[edit]

Over the past several months, a handful of concept art images have been added to the main body of this lore page. While I do think they're worth mentioning and having in the gallery, I personally do not believe that they belong in the main body of the article. It is my understanding that concept art isn't official content, or canon depictions of anything. It is material that the developers considered using, but unless it was actually implemented in the final product, it can only be considered scrapped, or shelved, or at least unofficial ideas. At the moment, they're taking up a lot of space in the main body of the article without depicting anything that's mentioned in the accompanying text. I'm not sure what the official website stance is on the use of concept art in lore articles in favor of canon in-game images pertinent to the text written in the main body, but I would posit that the concept art belongs only in the gallery section. Am I wrong in this? Feran Derethi (talk) 21:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)