Daggerfall talk:Store/Item Locations

I'm wondering... The stores list is about to become really long (I have 34 rusty shops to add just for Wayrest). Maybe we should split it, one list per province. If we do so, how do we call the pages? daggerfall:Shops of ProvinceName would be ok for me. What do you think about it?

Niriel 05:40, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

My thoughts

Given there are several dozen provinces in Daggerfall and most contain several towns (the Orsinium Area only has three, but compare that to the oodles of towns in Daggerfall) this page simply needs to disappear, lest the tables grow and grow and grow. I think we might be better off either using a CGI (which reads the maps.bsa and blocks.bsa files directly), or we instead populate the merchant/guild info in the Tamriel namespace (ex: Tamriel:foo or Tamriel:foo/bar). Populating the data isn't a trouble (a simple shell script could control ATLAS and WGET), but would thousands and thousands of wiki pages be of any value? If such data would be valuable (i.e., "I'm currently in city A of province B. What shops are available to me, and what are their qualities?"), it might be better retrieved locally rather than reading wiki entries. DH might not have the space for thousands and thousands of Daggerfall-specific entries, or he might not be able to host CGI's, for example. In either event since the data is static (editing it wouldn't make any sense), it might be better performed locally with ATLAS rather than searching the UESP. Uniblab 23:35, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

As I said at UESPWiki talk:Daggerfall Redesign Project‎, I'd rather not rush to find new ways to organize information for Daggerfall that are different from those used for all of the other games documented on the site. Even if the information is mostly static, I'd say we should stick with adding the information to the wiki unless there is some critical feature that would be missing on the wiki. Using the wiki means that the information can be added right now without first developing a new interface and integrating that interface with the wiki. It also means that any wiki editor can help with future maintenance that needs to be done: adding an additional column of information, fixing typos, changing the layout of the tables, adding links to other wiki articles, whatever. In OB/MW large chunks of many pages have been generated automatically by extracting the information from the game data. But then that information was added to wiki articles. And shifting away from the wiki does nothing to help address the underlying issues that need to be answered: How should the information be organized? What information is useful to readers? What will make it easiest for readers to find the information they are looking for? Those questions need to be figured out whether you're adding the information to the wiki or coming up with some new interface.

Also, the type of information you're talking about here does not belong in the Tamriel namespace. Game-specific information belongs in the Daggerfall namespace. --Nephele^Talk 00:34, 5 May 2008 (EDT)

I reckoned these store locations could only be wrenched out of Daggerfall by hand, realistically. I may be entirely wrong on this, but it seems the map is an array of constant seeds which are called by the game to reconstruct the same world in every game. That sounds really ponderous to reverse-engineer. Unless someone has managed that feat and can dump this information automatically, this page absolutely has a place here. Tlist 01:39, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

The data for most non-storyline places might have been generated randomly (a la rogue), but I assure you each and every place is stored statically in the distribution media. This means no matter when, where, how, or why, one plays Daggerfall each town will always be the same as one found it previously. This static data may be found in BLOCKS.BSA. --Uniblab 23:37, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

One might find seeds in the BLOCKS.BSA file. It is important to note the difference between pseudorandom and random. All computer games use a pseudorandom number generator with some seed as an input. If the inputs never change then nor shall the output change. Some games use the current local time as one of the inputs for example, and others might not. In the case of Daggerfall, since the name seed (the only input to the name generator) for a given merchant never changes, then the generated name (no matter how many times one plays Daggerfall) of a given town will never change. This means the merchant data regarding each settlement can be pulled easily from the source material. Ex: if one finds a quality 19 merchant named Honest Fred Sanford's Junkyard in some settlement, then that settlement will always and forever have a quality 19 merchant named Honest Fred Sanford's Junkyard. Extracting the data is documented in BLOCKS.BSA. --Uniblab 23:37, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

My Apologies

While I'm sure only a few people have noticed, I've been steadily completing the list of stores; my last edit was mostly a misunderstanding: I thought I was fixing an error that was caused by something I was doing (the 'error' in question being that my recent edits didn't appear whenever I was logged-out). I just now learned that it's wiki nature; apparently, recent edits have to be parsed in order to show up when not logged-in. If someone, preferably an administrator, wants to undo my last edit, feel free; all I did was remove the hide|1-5 lines, as I thought that my additions of hide|4 in various places were to blame. --AutismFanaticism (talk) 22:33, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't require anyone else to undo that edit, though I've done it now. It's a very common misunderstanding for new and anonymous users so we are used to it happening. I do think that the suggestions above should be taken for this page. Stores in other games are listed on one page, eg all armorers on their own page, as well as the slight duplication of having all buildings in a town/city listed on its page. This page is becoming too bulky to handle all the stores. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 00:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, I didn't think it really needed to be undone, as I wasn't sure what those tags were for (organisation, I think). Fortunately, it seems fairly easy to me to set up a table, so I'll start working on moving the information in the aforementioned list to the respective pages. --AutismFanaticism (talk) 09:52, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

My work :'(

I remember heavily contributing to this page some time ago (one or two years ago, I believe). I remember adding all the stores for entire regions, like Alikr's Desert, Antiphyllos and others. It looks like it got all wiped out. I cannot find anything in the page history. Was it all a fever dream or were some data lost?

I know there is a debate about whether documenting and recording all the shops is a worthwhile endeavor in and of itself, but I'm still wondering what could have happened?

Ned Le Foul (talk) 14:23, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Are you sure it was on this page? From your contribution history I see you made numerous edits to a variety of store pages, but those are all still intact. Could those contributions be what you're remembering? — Wolfborn^(Howl) 22:45, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh. I just looked in the wrong place… Well, you learn every day, I guess. Sorry for the trouble -.-" and thanks a lot for the help. — On the up side, and in a more practical sense, I'm charting the worst pawnshops everywhere! This will be valuable information for all, as those are where you can sell at the best prices. Ned Le Foul (talk) 10:41, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

No trouble at all, glad I could help! — Wolfborn^(Howl) 20:40, 29 May 2022 (UTC)